Shields Are Bad.

[Eyeless]

-snip-

 

All I'm gathering from this is that you haven't tried to stay past 25 minutes of Cassini on Saturn or seen much late-game infested recently. 

 

I'm not saying you haven't, but it's heavily implied, as lategame Grineer are bleed-proc machines, whereas the more poisonous infested will reliably insta-down my friend's Mirage unless he slots on a Vitality and stays on a crate. 

[Zhizn]

I really don't like the idea of making shields even better than they are now.  Sure, for later matches against the infested and grineer you'll need to have an answer to their shield bypass damage, but there are many possible answers to that problem, the least of which being the rejuvenation aura.  No matter how you look at it, shield based frames will need 2 defensive mods to be self sufficient at that point (shield and a health mod), and health based frames need 2 as well (health and a health regen mod), so there isn't an 'extra mod' problem when comparing health based defense to shield based defense.  Heck, the shield based one is actually stronger, since it can regenerate from most hits on its own, and only needs the one mod if you're facing corpus.  Additionally, most of the shield based frames aren't all that durable to begin with, so even with a health based defense they'll still feel squishy compared to the more durable frames.  Its a playstyle choice.  Don't forget that if you're trying to do lategame content like that, building an effective squad can be very important.  Do you have a support frame in your group?  frost, volt, trinity, oberon, nekros, and nyx are all excellent frames that can fill that roll.

 

Also, your mirage friend isn't using eclipse properly if he can't take a single hit.  its a very strong damage reduction ability when its in shadow mode, 75% at base, and can reach 95% with maxed power strength.  That is absolutely amazing damage reduction, and getting one hit with it up means everyone should be having issues.

[Rekkou]

 

-snip-

 

All I'm gathering from this is that you haven't tried to stay past 25 minutes of Cassini on Saturn or seen much late-game infested recently. 

 

I'm not saying you haven't, but it's heavily implied, as lategame Grineer are bleed-proc machines, whereas the more poisonous infested will reliably insta-down my friend's Mirage unless he slots on a Vitality and stays on a crate. 

 

 

Let me ask, what is your build and do you ever try equipping both Redirection and Vitality? Because Cassini aren't even close to end-game standard and there aren't any Eviscerator there. If you have problem with bleed procs in a mid level game that doesn't even have eviscerator, then you're the one needing to listen to others.

[Azawarau]

 

 

When i say proc resistance im not talking toxic

 

 

Viral and cold and such i had in mind. Slash and toxic procs are fine as they are

 

The only frame thats really biased towards shield use is mag (polarize). The rest can get away with using HP effectively one way or another (Love my Vitality based Vauban)

 

There are also ways to avoid slash procs like bringing a healer or healing items or certain powers that grant invi frames or just avoiding getting hit or quick thinking or just vitality because you know some procs pass shields

 

Alot of what OP is saying is just proc bypassing shield QQ and he totally fails to mention that you can use both vitality and redirection in his reasoning of why shields are so bad

 

I agree shields are bad but this is a total QQ thread in disguise

 

 

Er...I never specified which proc shields should factor in, but I think the way they're handled right now is pretty ridiculous at later levels. Toxic Ancients will one shot a frame with 200 health or less at later level Survivals where getting touched by them is more or less a certainty.

 

Phobos Survivals are simply hell because it's simply bleed procs everywhere, and the damage done by the bleed and the toxic scales to ridiculous degrees later on that makes playing squishier frames feel suicidal without being able to abuse AoE abilities constantly just so you don't get grazed. 

 

Whether you use Vitality or Redirection here is redundant. Especially Redirection, as a lot of the procs enemies can spring on you eat through the shields or bypass them entirely at higher levels, making them redundant, which was his entire point. These shield bypassing procs at later levels completely ignore your shields and easily melt through your 740 health.

 

These two mods don't make late-game proccing any less of an issue when it comes to shields, is the point, and I fail to see how not mentioning them completely invalidates his stance on the issue of Shields.

 

People should be able to play the frame they play, and these kinds of missions shouldn't require someone to potentially play an Oberon or Trinity that they don't enjoy running, not that they'd be quick enough in plenty of instances. 

 

So in the end, Life Strike, Quick Thinking, 'Git Gud', Healer Frames, these are not real solutions to the underlying problem that at mediumish to higher levels, the enemy procs get way out of control for at least two factions and this makes shields far less useful than they ought to be. 

 

You can only go with the 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.' logic for so long... 

 

 

I considered weaving it into the core gameplay, but decided it was something so many people would find unnecessary (as the above posts show) it might be better as an optional augmentation.

 

Handspring can be used by every single frame, and there are barely any frames that are helped less by it than others (maybe Rhino with Iron Skin). Also, it looks like a natural part of gameplay.

 

Bloody Revenge would be an awkward mechanic to explain to a new player, and bizzarre as a part of the basic skillset. Many players would find it redundant when they have Rejuvenation equipped, but for the Mags and Embers of the world such a mod may be helpful. The responses in this thread seem to suggest it wouldn't be an unused mod at all.

 

If you want to suggest removing slash damage for enemies, that's fine. But since people seem to disagree about its importance, I decided to offer a solution using an existing system.

 

 

The above posters seem to be against this just for the sake of being against it. "It's not broken, stop crying!"  

 

I follow your logic with your own suggested mod, however I don't feel the same way about the debate over Handspring, which has remained a sore spot for me and quite a few others within the forum community. 

 

My own reasoning as to why

The issue with the perceived bandaids altogether is that a lot of them feel like they should have already been implemented as a mechanic you can learn, or a passive on select frames (Frost getting immunity to ice levels, Ember shouldn't take damage from fire in the first place, etc) rather than something you may or may not get dropped into your inventory only to find you're gimping your overall performance by having it equipped. 

 

That's always the sore issue with the listed bandaid mods, and so whenever something that sounds like another one is proposed, I can't help but have a flag go off in my mind.

 

Honestly, I simply share the same view as the OP in this thread. Shields should give us something to fend off the procs. When every enemy has several different ways to bypass our shields from all directions in the blink of an eye, it makes shields feel entirely redundant and I can't help but question why we have them when they can't do their job. 

 

Hitscan weaponry and a random Toxic Ancient from around the corner instantly eating your health 30 minutes into a Survival in certain nodes/areas just feels cheap and honestly like a lazy way to go about increasing the difficulty. 

 

So youre gonna ignore the god like powers,items, and mods built for resisting these things that i specified in my post?

[Marthrym]

I think the procs themselves are fine. They make things interesting, they make gameplay more varied. What I think does make them unfair, or downright broken sometimes, is scaling. We have tools to counter these procs, granted some may not feel they're worth the mod slot, but others are very useful, especially when used in synergy with other mods.

 

The only moment they might become irrelevant is when scaling gives them (and any other tool we have to help us for that matter) the middle finger. Luckily, that mostly happens in endless missions, only rarely (if ever) will you get a bleed proc that takes away 300+ health in 5 seconds in "leveled" missions. Repeated procs might wear you down, but mods like Life strike of Rejuvenation (I don't like restores, for me they break mobility and pace in the game) are very useful, regardless of the frame you use.^^

 

I would like to see shields "interact" more with all the different elements damage 2.0 created though. Not to make them stronger or weaker, but, again, to make things more interesting.^^

[Eyeless]

 

 

-snip-

 

All I'm gathering from this is that you haven't tried to stay past 25 minutes of Cassini on Saturn or seen much late-game infested recently. 

 

I'm not saying you haven't, but it's heavily implied, as lategame Grineer are bleed-proc machines, whereas the more poisonous infested will reliably insta-down my friend's Mirage unless he slots on a Vitality and stays on a crate. 

 

 

Let me ask, what is your build and do you ever try equipping both Redirection and Vitality? Because Cassini aren't even close to end-game standard and there aren't any Eviscerator there. If you have problem with bleed procs in a mid level game that doesn't even have eviscerator, then you're the one needing to listen to others.

 

 

Cassini is simply an example, because stepping into there for not even 20 minutes had me getting procced bleed from all directions by numerous sharp shooters and seekers. Two early enemies that consistently cause this proc have very numerous spawns on that particular node I frequent for leveling gear. I don't consider Cassini endgame, but that and Phobos always come to mind when I think of Bleed Procs. 

 

I never said I had an issue with receiving procs, as I always run with Vitality and ensure my set up can deal with anything the levels throw at me. The friends I run with who don't bother and just wing it are the reason I notice the issue with the procs, because I'm always reviving them when they neglect a health mod and some way to sustain themselves.

 

So youre gonna ignore the god like powers,items, and mods built for resisting these things that i specified in my post?

 

 

 

The existence of these mods doesn't magically excuse how lackluster our Frame's shields are. 

[Dwarfstar]

All of the solutions being presented as counter arguments amount to the same thing- don't get shot, take more health, bring lifestrike/rejuv etc..

 

I never said there wasn't a way to compensate for bleed procs/toxic damage. There are plenty of ways to compensate for it.

 

That is exactly the point. You have to compensate for it on low health/high shield frames. You aren't able to leverage the strength of the frame ( shields ) and instead have to boost the weakness ( health ) in order to survive.

 

That establishes the fact that high shields don't do much for you, where itemizing toward maintaining health is a superior strategy. Which was the entire point of the OP.

 

There is a balance issue when speccing to an attribute on a frame that is supposed to be it's strong point ( High Shields ) is actually a liability in practice.

 

I don't really care what the solution is- I like the idea that high shields would reduce incoming proc chances- because it's interesting and fun. What I want to see is more build diversity, and right now you don't have that. The strategy is, maximize health and bring a health restoring item.

 

Like, you can't even do low health/high shield, high shield regen Frost.. it just doesn't work.

 

Everyone seems to be in agreement that shield-only is a trap option and should be avoided. So what's the problem here?

[Otaiken]

HP + armor is simply

 

So shields are bad are they? completely useless you said, go play pluto no shield nightmares with a frame like ember and come back and tell us shields are useless. If you had no shield everytime u got shot would be like a bleed proc, ridiculous statement and argument.

 

Yeah.. they are. Unfortunately some frames were balanced by DE in such a way that they seem to rely on shields. On 10 armor frames.. your completely screwed in those missions. Cause boosting your 10 armor by 75% isn't gonna help you much. Meanwhile armor+HP frames can just blitz through the entire mission.. and not even notice their shields are missing.

 

That's the problem. Some frames are reliant on an entirely weak form of defense and what is worse they don't have a way to compensate. Due to the multiplicative nature of mods.. once you have 10 armor you have 10 armor... you can't do much of anything to improve that. You can use Vitality.. but at some point due to the lack of armor the drain is gonna be too much for you to replace and you will die.

 

So yeah.. shields are worthless. Active defenses and Life Strike will serve you better. Shield for Volt or Mirage's abilities are a good example. Frames without those active defenses are screwed though, like Ember.

 

So DE has to either buff shields somehow. Increase frame armor across the board or change scaling for armor mods (or make them additive). Or provide at least one active defense ability for every single low armor/HP frame.

Edited October 7, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Gillityr]

Agreed with OP, shields being S#&$ are *one of* the reason certain frames are not end-game viable.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

They are. So long as Player 1 was smart enough to equip a certain mod that prevents his low health pool from killing him.

 

It took me literal months to get Quick Thinking, friend. A lot of players won't have one and won't be able to get one without actually spending plat, because it's so darn rare. 

 

 

 

I think this is a major exaggeration though.  There is a world of difference between "Can't protect you against everything" and "Near useless".  There's an even bigger difference between "Near useless" and "Protects you very well against everything except for 2 procs".

 

Those two procs are immensely common though. Grineer elite lancers - who are as common as fleas in just about every mid-high level grineer mission - will generally proc slash every three-five bursts. While their damage usually only does 15ish per tick in high level play, that adds up rapidly on a squishy Mag or Ember. Toxin damage comes from potentially every single infested if a toxic ancient is nearby, and then there's still the ospreys, and it's really nasty with those eximuses who have the toxic aura. Even corpus moas (which we all know are common as dirt) will proc slash for a surprising amount of damage.

There's also a verismilitude issue here. "How the hell is a sword that never touched you supposed to make you bleed?" If DE's going to nerf things like explosive ammo capacity across the board in the name of logic, they need to also nerf things like slash procs and toxin proc/damage too, because those things are just as illogical.

And an RNG issue. Combat in a shooter shouldn't be decided by RNG.

To be honest, crappy shield bleedthrough damage and knockdown are the reasons why I main Rhino, so I don't have to deal with this unfun garbage.

 

 

 

There are simpler solution, use both redirection and vitality. My Mag not only has redirection, but also vitality and vigor. And she can easily survive bleed procs with 400+ health left.

 

Trouble is, doing that significantly wrecks Mag's offense, which is kind of her only advantage compared to tougher frames. That'd be a solution if we didn't have highly limited mod slots, but we do.

So it ends up gimping caster frames even more compared to tough frames, because they have to shore up their weaknesses rather than playing to their strengths, while tough frames strengths are their toughness, so they get to play to their strengths when it comes to builds to resist procs.

 

 

Viral and cold and such i had in mind. Slash and toxic procs are fine as they are

 

The hell? Viral procs are fine (though practically no enemies actually use them), while slash and toxic procs are terrible.

 

 

 

The only frame thats really biased towards shield use is mag (polarize). The rest can get away with using HP effectively one way or another (Love my Vitality based Vauban)

 

Any frame with higher base shields than health is arguably biased towards shield use, as it gains more of an advantage from redirection than it does vitality.

 

 

 

There are also ways to avoid slash procs like bringing a healer or healing items or certain powers that grant invi frames or just avoiding getting hit or quick thinking or just vitality because you know some procs pass shields

 

So... Solo players get screwed, or players have to build health restores and take themselves out of the action to open up the wheel and drop one and hover around while it does its work, or they're limited to certain frames? And you think this is good design? Seriously?

 

 

 

Rather than worrying about whether or not shields do their job, how about not getting hit?

Because the game is pretty clearly designed as something other than a cover shooter. What with, you know, the lack of cover system. If I wanted to play a cover shooter, I would play one designed from the ground up for cover. Like Mass Effect.

 

Basically, the game encourages extreme fast paced run and gun shooting by its design. "Hey, slow down and take cover, then pop your head out to snipe people like most other third person shooters out there" is not really a good answer.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Kestral9999]

The existence of these mods doesn't magically excuse how lackluster our Frame's shields are. 

Yes it does. I mean, not just that aspect but the fact that you're already incredibly powerful and very much sufficient in defense power as is definitely shows that your lackluster health protector doesn't need to be nigh impenetrable.

 

What I would recommend is for DE to make a mod that guards up to 80% of the damage from damage inducing procs, could even defend against energy drain since that is based around magnetic proc.

[Noble_Cactus]

@Facehugger

 

I bind my Restores to hotkeys for easy potion access :T

 

The rest of your points are valid though.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Eyeless]

Yes it does. I mean, not just that aspect but the fact that you're already incredibly powerful and very much sufficient in defense power as is definitely shows that your lackluster health protector doesn't need to be nigh impenetrable.

 

What I would recommend is for DE to make a mod that guards up to 80% of the damage from damage inducing procs, could even defend against energy drain since that is based around magnetic proc.

 

Facehugger made a lot of good points I failed to point out despite my time battling on this thread, points you blatantly ignored only to suggest a bandaid mod. Great. Why not just make shields more useful rather than giving us yet another mod that takes away from our frame's offensive ability? 

 

80% is going to work as well as it does on Sure Footed. Aka barely at all for myself, and incredibly iffy for others. 

 

Some of these incredibly powerful mods are incredibly rare, or are just flat out hard to come by, especially if you rely on the trade chat, as I'm pretty sure the majority of the Warframe players barely even touch the forums. 

 

At the end of the day, those mods are not a magical cure-all and at the End-Game side of things you won't last long enough from a level 80 toxic ancient hugging you amid a swarm of toxic clawed crawlers in some frames for those mods to matter still. 

 

Yes, I'm aware DE doesn't balance for these levels, but it's not uncommon knowledge that these levels are the goal a lot of players strive for when min-maxing or grinding for their gear. Just covering that base before someone tries to throw that at me as well. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Yes it does. I mean, not just that aspect but the fact that you're already incredibly powerful and very much sufficient in defense power as is definitely shows that your lackluster health protector doesn't need to be nigh impenetrable.

 

What I would recommend is for DE to make a mod that guards up to 80% of the damage from damage inducing procs, could even defend against energy drain since that is based around magnetic proc.

 

When suggesting mods (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing--I did it) remember opportunity cost. That mod slot I have to use for a frame like Mag means one less other mod I can attach. That can be used well when players have to compensate for lack of skill, and as they get better they can use a different mod. But slash damage in its current form isn't skill based (especially against Grineer), it's RNG based.

[Phatose]

Those two procs are immensely common though. Grineer elite lancers - who are as common as fleas in just about every mid-high level grineer mission - will generally proc slash every three-five bursts. While their damage usually only does 15ish per tick in high level play, that adds up rapidly on a squishy Mag or Ember. Toxin damage comes from potentially every single infested if a toxic ancient is nearby, and then there's still the ospreys, and it's really nasty with those eximuses who have the toxic aura. Even corpus moas (which we all know are common as dirt) will proc slash for a surprising amount of damage.

There's also a verismilitude issue here. "How the hell is a sword that never touched you supposed to make you bleed?" If DE's going to nerf things like explosive ammo capacity across the board in the name of logic, they need to also nerf things like slash procs and toxin proc/damage too, because those things are just as illogical.

And an RNG issue. Combat in a shooter shouldn't be decided by RNG.

To be honest, crappy shield bleedthrough damage and knockdown are the reasons why I main Rhino, so I don't have to deal with this unfun garbage.

 

 

By my count, one proc every three to five bursts gives you a protection of 66 to 80%, assuming you mean shots.  If you mean actual bursts, that's something like 93% of all incoming bullets they protect you from .  That's not useless, that's tank armor.

 

Verismilitude? That's a joke, right?  Cause we have no idea whatsoever how the things operate at all.  Except that we know that plenty actually goes right though the shields all the time, by the simple fact that we don't asphyxiate from having our shields up.  Nor do our feet and hands ever have any trouble gripping solid objects right through out shields. 

 

And combat in a shooter shouldn't be determined by RNG?  Every first person shooter ever made has two words for you:  Bullet Spread.

[Azawarau]

The existence of these mods doesn't magically excuse how lackluster our Frame's shields are. 

Youre purposely missing the point?

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I always assumed Quick-Thinking was originally intended for Power casting low HP frames like Mag, Emeber, and Loki.

Allowing them to still remain on their feet to recover after they let their health be deleted that far.

I cannot understand the logic of playing "End Game" multi-hour Survivals and using consumables or Survivability builds or mods as being 'Bad Game Design'

- On what normal mid-tier Star Chart or late Star-Chart node does one need to use consumables to clear the mission or need the 'OP' God-like mods or healer frames???? I mean seriously if a Star-Chart node is giving you trouble to complete that you need Consumables or Quick-Thinking; I don't think there is any help we can give you on the forum.

I cannot see or inspect Mastery Rank on forum, but I wonder how you passed some of the Mastery Rank tests if Star-Chart bleed procs and toxic procs are wasting your revives....

I view not utilizing Life-Strike, Quick-Thinking, or healing consumables for late-game endless modes the equivalent as taking all unranked weapons into a late-game endless mode..you are ill-equipped and seeking to fail or deal with an unneeded challenge. Again why would someone need to craft Team Health restores or Instant Health/SHIELD consumables for normal Star-chart completion. (The tools are there for you to use not look at with disgust and then complain that you shouldn't need them to succeed....)

[RealPandemonium]

Haha, this thread again.  Gear up, weenies and crazy people!

Edited October 8, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Dwarfstar]

When suggesting mods (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing--I did it) remember opportunity cost. That mod slot I have to use for a frame like Mag means one less other mod I can attach. That can be used well when players have to compensate for lack of skill, and as they get better they can use a different mod. But slash damage in its current form isn't skill based (especially against Grineer), it's RNG based.

 

Yup, it doesn't matter if you play hide-and-seek and use cover against grineer, you're going to get shot and those shots are going to bleed you.

 

Shields are supposed to give you some buffer to work with, but it ends up not working that way at all.

[Dwarfstar]

I always assumed Quick-Thinking was originally intended for Power casting low HP frames like Mag, Emeber, and Loki.

Allowing them to still remain on their feet to recover after they let their health be deleted that far.

I cannot understand the logic of playing "End Game" multi-hour Survivals and using consumables or Survivability builds or mods as being 'Bad Game Design'

- On what normal mid-tier Star Chart or late Star-Chart node does one need to use consumables to clear the mission or need the 'OP' God-like mods or healer frames???? I mean seriously if a Star-Chart node is giving you trouble to complete that you need Consumables or Quick-Thinking; I don't think there is any help we can give you on the forum.

I cannot see or inspect Mastery Rank on forum, but I wonder how you passed some of the Mastery Rank tests if Star-Chart bleed procs and toxic procs are wasting your revives....

I view not utilizing Life-Strike, Quick-Thinking, or healing consumables for late-game endless modes the equivalent as taking all unranked weapons into a late-game endless mode..you are ill-equipped and seeking to fail or deal with an unneeded challenge. Again why would someone need to craft Team Health restores or Instant Health/SHIELD consumables for normal Star-chart completion. (The tools are there for you to use not look at with disgust and then complain that you shouldn't need them to succeed....)

 

 

Again, the discussion isn't about what workarounds you can use. it's been thoroughly established in the thread that workarounds exist, and we all know what they are. Please try to read the thread before replying.

[Naftal]

Shields are supposed to give you some buffer to work with, but it ends up not working that way at all.

What do you mean? They DO give you some buffer and it works exactly like that.

 

Go with 0 shields and you'll take so much more damage because you don't have that buffer.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Again, the discussion isn't about what workarounds you can use. it's been thoroughly established in the thread that workarounds exist, and we all know what they are. Please try to read the thread before replying.

I read the four pages and while you title the thread as Shields being Bad, you more-so complaining about the effect that some shield-bypass procs have on a low-health Warframe. Normally that would be known as a weakness for that frame and players have a choice to use mods (workarounds) to strengthen those weakness, but instead you just want yo remove that weakness entirely.

Even if Slash and Bleed were applies to Shields and shields would need to be depleted before the procs affected health, then Nightmare No shield missions would present the exact same issue of a Low-hp Build being extremely vulnerable.

I could understand DE presenting a Mod that allowed all status procs to attack damage first, but life-leech/drain eximus and nightmare would still cater to high HP builds and low HP builds would still be at a disadvantage.

Shields currently act a Health Buffer aside from a couple of procs, just as Armor works as a limited health buffer.

(Armor-Ignore procs/status effects are Bleed, life-drain, and life-leech...they take away the same amount of numerical health value regardless of armor or shield ratings until they hit lower health limit.)

I don't see how removing a low-hp Warframe's weakness at the Game level rather than a mod is a step in the right direction. It makes other band-aid or workaround mods even more useless, and makes low shield Warframes at more of a disadvantage Rather than there being a somewhat balanced middle ground. But you wouldn't approve of it being a mod because that would just be another 'workaround.'

Is nightmare no-shield Ceres Hi-jack a thing? (I usually avoid Nightmare Hi-jacks)

Edited October 8, 2014 by (PS4)MrNishi

[Azawarau]

Haha, this thread again.  Gear up, weenies and crazy people!

Dont you feel shields are a bit underwhelming?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Even if Slash and Bleed were applies to Shields and shields would need to be depleted before the procs affected health, then Nightmare No shield missions would present the exact same issue of a Low-hp Build being extremely vulnerable.

I could understand DE presenting a Mod that allowed all status procs to attack damage first, but life-leech/drain eximus and nightmare would still cater to high HP builds and low HP builds would still be at a disadvantage.

Shields currently act a Health Buffer aside from a couple of procs, just as Armor works as a limited health buffer.

(Armor-Ignore procs/status effects are Bleed, life-drain, and life-leech...they take away the same amount of numerical health value regardless of armor or shield ratings until they hit lower health limit.)

I don't see how removing a low-hp Warframe's weakness at the Game level rather than a mod is a step in the right direction. It makes other band-aid or workaround mods even more useless, and makes low shield Warframes at more of a disadvantage Rather than there being a somewhat balanced middle ground. But you wouldn't approve of it being a mod because that would just be another 'workaround.'

 

Low shield frames are usually covered either by having powerful/health restoring casting skills or high armor (and I'm almost certain Slash damage is affected by armor--My Ember can lose 100+ HP on a single level 35 slash proc, while my Valkyr loses 15 HP or less). That's the balance. But when a frame that's not high armor gets shot and a slash proc happens the player needs to have Vitality or they will die within three procs. That's bad design when there are hundreds of enemies surrounding the player. A band-aid mod would be better than what we have now, but the best solution would be to encourage a gameplay system that allows players to be able to survive level 35 enemies without dodging every single hitscan attack. If a band-aid mod is necessary on almost all low-health builds for levels that are still in the starchart, it probably should be a core mechanic.

[Mephane]

I believe the very existence of attacks and procs that bypass shields is wrong in the first place. Being able to kill the enemies or find cover before the shields are depleted should be rewarded with no persistent damage to your warframe, yet slash and poison effectively mean that you some form of healing* is required in long missions.

 

*Which often simply consists of people taking turns in going down and being eventually due to attrition.