Major Game Breaking Flaw For Those Who Chose Veil/meridian As A Syndicate.

[Doom_Bunny]

But Tenno are no longer normal humans, why would New Loka seek Tenno help, and why would Tenno ally with a faction of human purists?

The tenno seek balance, if reviving a dead culture will get a group of people to stop fighting then we may as well help them.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Postal_pat

[RossRam]

How exactly do the Death Squads the negative Syndicates send after you work?  I've been told they're just additional Excimus enemies but I've not noticed any additional units in missions.  Perhaps they can be marked?  Or maybe a notification in-mission when an enemy Syndicate sends a group after you?

 

Just imagine this: you are against Steel Meridian... running another mission. Suddenly lights go out, screen go black, you can't see anything but HUD. A message window pops open: there's a Roller in there. It says "click-clickity-tick-tock!"

 

Lights go on and they are straight in front of you.

 

Eximus. Rollers. A whole platoon of them.

 

Edited October 29, 2014 by RossRam

[AoiiToori]

The tenno seek balance, if reviving a dead culture will get a group of people to stop fighting then we may as well help them.

We are mere mercenaries.

[SilentMobius]

Why did New Loka use Infested as weapons? Ya, you got me. :( The truth is we didn't have a great set they could use and I rationalized this as 'they wouldn't risk humans in combat and so they use the Infested despite the hypocrisy.' I will tell you, New Loka feels pretty conflicted about it, though! ;)

 

Thanks for caring!

 

Interesting. I was wondering if New Loka were referring to a "Pure Humanity" from _before Orokin meddling... like during the post-Dark-Sector pre-Orokin-Era technocyte wasteland. Y'know... "Purity... Unity... Strength" *cough hivemind* kinda thing.

[SilentMobius]

At the risk of repeating myself - New Loka are freaks about humanity, the original. They see a machine as the opposite? A machine in their mind. What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'? So I think its fair for them to hate and fear that most.

 

True True - mostly referring to the (admittedly sparse) tidbits, like Mag Primes Lore entry.

 

Wait... did you just confirm that the Sentients are machines? Because it sounds like you just confirmed that the Sentients were machines.

[blaes]

Excellent insight! The current symmetries (which fail with 6 nodes) were definitely a last minute 'screw this make the diagonals symmetrical' and it was clear on paper this wasn't balanced but 'out it went'. When the other fires die down there will be some changes, will do my best to respect your investment!

 

actually, it's way easier to see when you arrange the factions in a circle/hexagon :

currently:

some opposing factions aren't using diagonals. and SM/RV ends up having zero diagonal for opposing faction, hence the imbalance.

 

corrected:

the opposing pairs SM/NL and RV/CS are swapped to SM/CS and RV/NL, relations are symmetrical and imbalance disappear.

[Mcl_Blue]

But Tenno are no longer normal humans, why would New Loka seek Tenno help, and why would Tenno ally with a faction of human purists?

Obviously, from a lore standpoint, if a Tenno allies with them, then they are willing to be "purified" back into pure humans, as they will naturally share the goal of the Syndicate they're allying themselves with.

 

I mean, it's probably fair to assume that not everyone in there is a pure human, but they WANT to be.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Mcl_BlueMadness

[John89brensen]

Obviously, from a lore standpoint, if a Tenno allies with them, then they are willing to be "purified" back into pure humans, as they will naturally share the goal of the Syndicate they're allying themselves with.

 

I mean, it's probably fair to assume that not everyone in there is a pure human, but they WANT to be.

Tenno are no longer human, i dont know how could they be purified. Besides there is nothing wrong with being Tenno or Human for that matter, you just gotta respect each other. New Loka and the Veil do not accept any other point of view but theirs, thats why im against them.

 

The tenno seek balance, if reviving a dead culture will get a group of people to stop fighting then we may as well help them.

Humans are not dead, there are constant references to "the colonies" wherever they might be. And by revivig a dead culture what do you mean? which of all the human cultures on earth (all pre orokin) would you be helping revive. New Loka are just purist that want humans to be humans and Earth just for Humans, no robots, no clones, no Tenno. 

There is no balance in intolerance. Which brings up the question, destroying New Loka and the Veil would it be an act of balance or an act of imbalance?

And this constant seach for balance has brought nothing but chaos to the system, both Grineer and Corpus had to bring their A-game to have a chance to counter the Tenno offensive. Remember the old fomorians? Huge battleships brought down by Tenno with no archwings. In a system torn by war we should not search for balance but for peace, ironically though war. Protect the innocent and give them a shot at a better future, bring back order and justice. Thats why i fight for Meridian and the Arbiters.

Edited October 30, 2014 by John89brensen

[Mcl_Blue]

Tenno are no longer human, i dont know how could they be purified. Besides there is nothing wrong with being Tenno or Human for that matter, you just gotta respect each other. New Loka and the Veil do not accept any other point of view but theirs, thats why im against them.

I'm not pro-New Loka, I'm just adding to the conversation.

[Doom_Bunny]

Humans are not dead, there are constant references to "the colonies" wherever they might be. And by revivig a dead culture what do you mean? which of all the human cultures on earth (all pre orokin) would you be helping revive. New Loka are just purist that want humans to be humans and Earth just for Humans, no robots, no clones, no Tenno. 

 

There is no balance in intolerance. Which brings up the question, destroying New Loka and the Veil would it be an act of balance or an act of imbalance?

And this constant seach for balance has brought chaos to the system, both Grineer and Corpus had to bring their A-game to have a chance to counter the Tenno offensive. Remember the old fomorians? Huge battleships brought down by Tenno with no archwings. In a system torn by war we should not search for balance but for peace, ironically though war. Protect the innocent and give them a shot at a better future, bring back order and justice. Thats why i fight for Meridian and the Arbiters.

The last sentence, first paragraph. That would be the dead culture or environment (considering the different paths of culture, if you take a closer look at the world) I talk about. I didn't say humans were dead, just that the 'good ole days' were dead.

 

I do like this whole second paragraph because it means DE is succeeding in everyone having their own story.

Skip to 2:00

Edited October 30, 2014 by Postal_pat

[Lorefarmer]

The rivalry between Suda and Loka is pretty straightforward, I think. Machines like data, information, 0's and 1's. They also want to move forward, expanding their knowledge and technology.  Loka is trying to reset Earth and humanity, back to where they could be considered more "primitive."  To AI like Suda, organic thinking would be sloppy and inefficient. She values those who think like her, and anyone else is "debris." Loka, on the other hand, is trying to restore Earth, appealing to the emotions of humans, and trying to return them "home."  Suda is described as being "seemingly emotionless," and would not understand why humans would want to return to just one planet.

[Blakrana]

In regards the OP: You raise an interestingly valid point. Whether things will change to better balance the Syndicates as a whole, rather than sticking a couple off on their own corner, remains to be seen.

 

In regards the New Loka debate:

 

So on the one hand, the New Loka are generally a group that has issues with what is and is not 'alive'. Beyond that, they're seemingly fixated on what it meant to be human in a physical context, before something changed it for what they feel is the worse.

 

Yet on the other hand, their stated goal is to restore Earth, the single place every single faction in the entire Origin System can admittedly consider their 'real home'. What they do is both for themselves, and yet for all, in a way. Even the non/trans/post- humans dotted around the setting get a piece of this bounty. It even serves as a directly creative thing, rather than destructive; something Tenno are more than capable of coveting on its own merits.

 

However, this is all fixated on the physical aspect. Sure, when people say 'pure humanity', it pretty much implies much of what people have discussed/mocked already. Yet there's another way to interpret such a statement; as a claim towards ideals, rather than necessarily only the basic matter of physical being.

 

Following from that interpretation, New Loka's stance could be seen as a desire to return to the ideals and tenets of humans before the current war torn era. Ideals care nothing for biology, and the concepts of rebirth and renewal also running through the New Loka synopsis have plenty of weight on their own as ideals to aspire towards. One of the main factors that played into my taking their initiation was the potential transcendence it allowed for frames like Valkyr; either one is reborn stronger, or one has found ideals to give solace through the age. Humans are mortal, but humanity is eternal.

 

I accept that my interpretation and response is perhaps more removed from what is, according to what I've read, the intended view of the New Loka ideology. And I admit, that's a bit of a downer. Nevertheless, I stand by my interpretation. Nothing that exists in life or fiction is so rigidly fixed that there is no room for a different view of things. After all, the entire notion of discussion requires opposing viewpoints for there to be any real merit.

 

Honestly has sparked a lot of debate for me, which has been rather refreshing.

 

If anyone else is interested in viewing my other posts on my interpretation of New Loka, well, feel free to track them through my Profile or something. That and for the record, my personal stance does lead to me being awfully confused as to why Suda would have issue with me. But then, I suppose there's not been many New Loka ethicists willing to sit down with 'her' and debate idealisms and philosophy.

[Ishki88]

Well dang............good find....I choice New Loka ever since Rebecca made a comment about them (comment wasn't anything special or a hint..just did it like Nike)

[Luckyo]

Actually, all discussions about Cephalon Suda can be considered as possible variants. Suda is a machine, creature of pure logic, without emotions, hardcoded. So we can never find reasons in its actions.

I have a better one.

 

Suda has a sole purpose: learning and improvement. New Loka are about devolving humanity into their former state. To an entity like Suda, that is about as close to heresy as one can get.

[Lumireaver]

I took Loka's use of infested to mean that Loka has a different idea of "humanity" than the rest of us do.

 

Stick with them long enough and they'll turn you "human" too.

[Sebastianx]

 

the opposing pairs SM/NL and RV/CS are swapped to SM/CS and RV/NL, relations are symmetrical and imbalance disappear.

Indeed, nice find, that works too even if it removes every flexibility of getting a 3rd faction without it somehow affecting your main or your allied one in a negative way, that's something I somewhat tried to avoid :P but still, it's at least more balanced than what we have now.

[SquirmyBurrito]

The issue I see with trying to balance it (without adding more syndicates or whatever) is that all the proposed solutions either remove the ability to have a third syndicate (via strange extra opposition pairings that don't make a whole lot of sense) or through the removal of opposition altogether which doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

[ThePresident777]

At the risk of repeating myself - New Loka are freaks about humanity, the original. They see a machine as the opposite? A machine in their mind. What destroyed humanity in the 'Good ole days'? So I think its fair for them to hate and fear that most.

 

Suda is tougher I agree with you, but I am drawn to the idea (like Ordis) that the most successful designs would prioritize self-preservation and identifying threats. For Suda to not care that masses of Tenno rally around New Loka wouldn't be smart. But you're right, that means Suda is more than a librarian. Maybe its silly but perhaps Suda thinks New Loka is the most boring of the Syndicates, because Suda really values intricacy, nuance and information more than anything else.

 

(Yeeppppp I'm stretching)

 

Why did New Loka use Infested as weapons? Ya, you got me. :( The truth is we didn't have a great set they could use and I rationalized this as 'they wouldn't risk humans in combat and so they use the Infested despite the hypocrisy.' I will tell you, New Loka feels pretty conflicted about it, though! ;)

 

Thanks for caring!

 

Since New Loka are freaks about humanity, does that mean that they would oppose AI and cybernetics?  Would a New Loka member put up with Ordis?  Is a Tenno human at base?  What are the Tenno?  If Tenno are not human or originally human, then wouldn't they forcefuly purge humans of cybernetics or AI?  Do they follow The Prime Directive?  Would they steal your ear buds?  What kind of re-runs do they watch on movie night?  Would they pay a premium fee for the history channel?  What costumes do they wear to halloween parties?

 

Would a Suda member seek cybernetic improvements for their flesh, including or especially their brain?  Do Tenno have flesh?  Would they pay a premium fee for the history channel?

Edited October 30, 2014 by ThePresident777

[UnluckiestSquid]

[...]  Do Tenno have flesh?  Would they pay a premium fee for the history channel?

 

Mind. Blown. 

 

Also, does anybody else think the Arbiter's of Hexis' voicework sounds like Ze Frank from True Facts?  I desperately want that to be intentional.

[Kethus]

actually, it's way easier to see when you arrange the factions in a circle/hexagon :

currently:

some opposing factions aren't using diagonals. and SM/RV ends up having zero diagonal for opposing faction, hence the imbalance.

 

corrected:

the opposing pairs SM/NL and RV/CS are swapped to SM/CS and RV/NL, relations are symmetrical and imbalance disappear.

Exactly! This is the correct shape!

Indeed, nice find, that works too even if it removes every flexibility of getting a 3rd faction without it somehow affecting your main or your allied one in a negative way, that's something I somewhat tried to avoid :P but still, it's at least more balanced than what we have now.

If I remember correctly in the devstream they said you were not supposed to be able to work for more than two syndicates at the same time. But even with blaes' distribution you can still have 4 factions at the same time, check the first two combinations in the wikia here.

[------ArtOfViolence-----]

Yes, I as well picked steel meridian and Red Veil, and I thought something was off but had'nt been paying close enough attention.  Thanks for bringing this up, it has been helpful.  Hopefully there will be a solution!  +1

[steak]

The rivalry between Suda and Loka is pretty straightforward, I think. Machines like data, information, 0's and 1's. They also want to move forward, expanding their knowledge and technology.  Loka is trying to reset Earth and humanity, back to where they could be considered more "primitive."  To AI like Suda, organic thinking would be sloppy and inefficient. She values those who think like her, and anyone else is "debris." Loka, on the other hand, is trying to restore Earth, appealing to the emotions of humans, and trying to return them "home."  Suda is described as being "seemingly emotionless," and would not understand why humans would want to return to just one planet.

Don't forget New Loka are "worshipers of humanity" and Suda is "curious". Might be the other way around on who could call who "debris". Might be both ways. But I feel that at the end of the day Suda would be more accepting of diversity. Can't learn much if everything is dead and gone.

 

 

Initially I saw the syndicates organized around a Freedom x Control axis, with Meridian being the ones more desiring of freedom and Loka more desiring of control (both representing the extreme violent means). In that view Suda and Perrin would stand for the closest thing to balance possible, seemingly passive at first, but still up for a good fight to defend their ideas. 

 

Why Loka would reject Suda is pretty straight forward. But why Suda opposes Loka? Loka sits at the extreme end of the spectrum and at the same time is a force that wants to exert control on the system and get rid of chaos/entropy. They seek the end of a lot of variables, to put it lightly.

 

Following this line of tought Suda won't oppose Meridian, because Steel Meridian can ensure some entropy will exist - even if they slaughter a lot of people in the process, they are looking forward, not trying to erase the past to go back to a romantically idealized "home". 

 

The organization around this axis seemed much stronger to me than any inherent reasons to form alliances. This is wartime and the syndicates were quick to develop a US v THEM mentality to ensure survival.

Edited October 31, 2014 by steak

[Slamtastic]

Red Veil wants to purge and burn, before a new beginning.  Allying with New Loka makes more sense than Steel Meridian, who is trying to protect what remains.

[Slamtastic]

Indeed, nice find, that works too even if it removes every flexibility of getting a 3rd faction without it somehow affecting your main or your allied one in a negative way, that's something I somewhat tried to avoid :P but still, it's at least more balanced than what we have now.

Yeah this makes more sense, since Steel Meridian with Red Veil (current alliance) does not make sense - one is "watch the galaxy burn," other is "protect the innocent."

 

The "fixed" version looks correct.  New Loka is looking to "restore humanity, restore Earth," making Red Veil a better "opposed" than Hexis, and Suda would be opposed to "great fiergy purge" since it's trying to learn from the past and collect it.

 

I think DE decided it would be best for people to GRIND THREE FACTIONS, rather than JUST TWO.  After all, MORE GRIND = WIN.

[Sebastianx]

Yeah this makes more sense, since Steel Meridian with Red Veil (current alliance) does not make sense - one is "watch the galaxy burn," other is "protect the innocent."

 

The "fixed" version looks correct.  New Loka is looking to "restore humanity, restore Earth," making Red Veil a better "opposed" than Hexis, and Suda would be opposed to "great fiergy purge" since it's trying to learn from the past and collect it.

 

I think DE decided it would be best for people to GRIND THREE FACTIONS, rather than JUST TWO.  After all, MORE GRIND = WIN.

Red Veil wants to purge the corruption in the galaxy, and if someone innocent dares to oppose them, they will not hesitate to kill them, but they're not hunting everyone to kill them, they're not going after civilians, or the weak, or the colonies that Steel Meridian are protecting from the corrupted Grineer empire...and that's why Steel Meridian is allied with Red Veil, they can together fight the corruption of the grineer.