Why Does Archwing Even Exist?

[Nitresco]

I find Archwing fun, personally. There's just something addicting about the fast-paced gameplay. I can't wait to see how the devs expand on it in the future, whether it be more archwings/guns/melee or incorporation into other mission types.

 

And I definitely don't consider some pointless venture on the dev's part.

[Neocyberman]

The fun of warframe melted for me within a day or so of using it. I began to think: "Wow this is so segregated from the main game that none of my previous accomplishments really matter. None of the mods, none of my warframe abilities. I might as well have just started over"

 

I don't enjoy that. It wasnt helped that syndicates lost their enjoyment potential after the scale of the grind became apparent.

[Wyzilla]

Sorry, but are you trying to tell me what I should and shouldn't find fun?

 

That's a very closed-minded way of thinking there bud. I'm simply saying that some people find it to be fun. Not that everyone needs to find it fun and if they don't they're wrong. People are welcome to think what they want. I'm simply voicing my own opinion.

 

So please, don't try to force your opinion on me. I respect that you don't find it fun. Now please respect that I and many others do find it fun. Cheers.

How many flight combat sims have you played? How many space combat sims have you played? Because otherwise I do have right to question what you find fun if it results from a lack of exposure.

 

Now I for the matter have played numerous dogfighters and space combat sims, and thus find Arhcwing incredibly boring compared to other experience. Combat is incredibly slow, movement is slow, combat is broken with melee, enemies are faily non-lethal, the UI just doesn't work, etc. As of now the Archwing is just a poorly executed mess compared to far better games currently on the market (and old ones at that, bloody Star Wars Battlefront II, made about a decade ago, has more engaging space combat) that also don't require quite a bit of grinding to even make your Archwing powerful.

[vaugahn]

How many flight combat sims have you played? How many space combat sims have you played? Because otherwise I do have right to question what you find fun if it results from a lack of exposure.

 

Now I for the matter have played numerous dogfighters and space combat sims, and thus find Arhcwing incredibly boring compared to other experience. Combat is incredibly slow, movement is slow, combat is broken with melee, enemies are faily non-lethal, the UI just doesn't work, etc. As of now the Archwing is just a poorly executed mess compared to far better games currently on the market (and old ones at that, bloody Star Wars Battlefront II, made about a decade ago, has more engaging space combat) that also don't require quite a bit of grinding to even make your Archwing powerful.

 

I think you're missing the point there...

[Letter13]

How many flight combat sims have you played? How many space combat sims have you played? Because otherwise I do have right to question what you find fun if it results from a lack of exposure.

Perhaps the reason I and many others find it fun is because we're not treating it as space dogfighting?

 

I just find it fun. I don't need to justify it. You have no right to tell me what I'm allowed to find fun, simple as that. 

 

I'm not telling you that you have to find it fun, so please don't tell me that I have to find it disappointing.

[LazyKnight]

I would like Archwing a LOT more if i could use the Archwing's weapons in the core game or using the core game's weapons in Archwing. As is, it just seems like a mini-game that is in danger of being skipped, due to how little relevance it has to the main-game. 

 

I think DE has made a mistake by making it take an entire new weapon's set, and mod set, to even play the outer-space mission; it will split the game in half as people devote their time to one or the other. 

 

I like space combat, i just have no motivation to collect more gear for a mini-game. 

[achromos]

How many flight combat sims have you played? How many space combat sims have you played? Because otherwise I do have right to question what you find fun if it results from a lack of exposure.

 

Now I for the matter have played numerous dogfighters and space combat sims, and thus find Arhcwing incredibly boring compared to other experience. Combat is incredibly slow, movement is slow, combat is broken with melee, enemies are faily non-lethal, the UI just doesn't work, etc. As of now the Archwing is just a poorly executed mess compared to far better games currently on the market (and old ones at that, bloody Star Wars Battlefront II, made about a decade ago, has more engaging space combat) that also don't require quite a bit of grinding to even make your Archwing powerful.

 

You are being quite closed minded here, pal.  Being honest, you should not have to have played 'combat simulators' or 'space combat simulators' and  study for four years on the subject matter to get a signed and accepted degree in how "Fun"  the Archwings are. it's just a game.

 

I do respect that you find it boring, I do respect that you have played OTHER games with their controls/tightness, ect. though that has little and less to do with warframe however,  this game is all about the grind archwing or no, it falls behind the grind wall put into something to become 'strong' with anything in this game. 

 

As far as being a 'perfect' dog fighter game or what have you... I say that Warframe does well enough, and I do believe there will be fixes in the future [as always] that will tighten up any issues [they have, btw.] and I personally have had fun and absolutely love it.  Does that mean you have to? No.  But does the fact that you don't enjoy it mean that I cannot,  definitely not.

[Monolake]

The melee auto-aim auto-play should be changed, it takes very little input from a player, you can even aim in another direction and still do a homerun.

[ComfyOlivia]

I'm kinda going to be a "medium". Meaning, I'm going to use both sides of the argument to power what I'm gonna say. 

 

I agree at this point, Archwing seems like kind of a gimmick at the moment. It was hyped for months with videos, talk, and everything. A new way to play the game! The problem is that they released two of them with 2 primaries and two melees, and a very limited set of mods. To top it off, it's buggy, it doesn't work a lot of the time, it's in the way of getting the limbo, I just don't liiiiikkkke it, and it feels very disconnected like OP said. Here are some criticisms I have:

 

1. It has hardly anything for content, and what is there, is kinda boring. Other than the melee animations. Those are THE bombdiggity, BUT they basically gave us a one mashable button quick-time-event where we can get attacked when doing the event. It's cool, and exciting, but it just makes my innards scream "mmmmMMMMMMMMMMM-GGGGGGimmick" (I have a terrible stomach bug atm).

 

2. They are working on the bugs, and they should, it's their job, and I appreciate that. It just doesn't help with all of Archwing's other.....afflictions?

 

3. To extend on what OP was saying, Archwing feels incredibly disconnected from the rest of the game. In fact, it could honestly be considered another sub-genre of game. Here I will refer to Warframe as actually ninja'ing around as WF and Warframe where you fly around as AW.

WF is over-the-shoulder 3rd person co-op where you directly control the actions of a walking humanoid. AW is an over-the-shoulder third person co-op with what could basically be considered a vehicle. So, don't BS and tell me the mechanics are basically identical. Flying in any direction you damn well please is incredibly different from WALKING. I will say why this might not be a completely terrible thing later, so stay tuned!

 

4. Personally, I don't enjoy archwing, and I've seen many people also say they don't. Don't tell me there aren't many. It is basic human instinct to shush up when you're basically being persecuted. "Persecution is a strong word, Mr. Guy On The Internet" "Yes, I know random forum-lurch". Persecution is basically treating someone with ill-will because they don't agree with you, and believe me, people like OP here who have the cojones to speak up, know what it feels like. On the first page, I can point out more than 4-5 comments demeaning poor OP here. Remember folks, just because you agree with the majority, doesn't mean you can demean people, and it certainly DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT. It's all opinions here folks, and you are acting like sharks because you get the blessed anonymity of the internet. Gj Random S#&$-Poster, did your e-peen grow? I sure hope so! You guys have pushed people in to corners, and that's why you don't see many of these "I agree with the less popular opinion" posts. AAAAANNNNDDDDD mini-rant over. Now, to continue. I thing Archwing is a a waste of my time. I don't enjoy it, I thing the gameplay is BEYOND clunky, but what does that truly mean in the end? Nothing. All I'm gonna say is that the parts that I do enjoy in this game have been overlapped with the AW stuff. I LOVE the frame-play. I cannot explain how huge of a nerd-boner I pop when I new frame is gonna release. But, DE intertwined what wasn't broken with what is broken. I am honestly heartbroken that they force me to play what I don't want to even poke with a 39-and-a-half-foot-pole to get what I like in the game. I try to avoid bugs in these major updates to keep myself motivated to play. Now, one of the largest piles of something-That-Should-Not-Be-Named-In-My-Mind is a MUST to get what is normally not broken. Allll motivation is dead to play at the moment, and I even have items to level. Aaaannnnd nerd-boner gone. DE, if you're going to put a big IFFY gameplay factor in, make sure it isn't broken or completely interfering with stuff. And don't mix core aspects of the game with new levels of play. What happens when things clash? Things break.

 

Now here's where I take all the negative stuff and twist it to be something I like to call Constructive Criticism. You folks still listening? I'm about to completely blow the minds of most people in the world. I'M GONNA SAY SOMETHING GOOD DESPITE AW'S ISSUES.

 

 

Ready?

 

Despite all the issues Archwing has, and this is the same for a lot of things in life, IT HAS POTENTIAL. Bug fixes, content adding, making it more smooth, and general tweaks here and there could make it a bearable gametype for me, and a dream for so many others.

 

There are so many things they could do with AW. This is why I believe the hype for it has ruined it initially. If us impatient humans would have let it cook, it would have more content riding it, it would be smoother, it would integrate better, and it wouldn't feel so terrible to a lot of us.

 

As I said, AW has potential despite its' current state, but it honestly should have been left to cook longer. I have no problem with DE. They are young and on the rise. They have so much room to grow, and I'm confident that if they stick with it, but still make sure they don't devote themselves to it, Archwing can become Warframe's weird, but cute, babe-magnet, malignant tumor.

 

 

P.S. Sorry for any grammatical errors. Tired and to lazy to proofcheck.

Edited October 28, 2014 by CoRRh

[AM-Bunny]

I'm gonna have to take OP's side on this. Admittedly, I haven't gotten around to *playing* archwing yet, so maybe it's so amazing I'll recant that but... I currently am disgusted by its presence.

 

What really bothers me is that nobody wanted it to start with. There's a loooong list of things that Warframe has been sorely lacking since it's inception, and Syndicates represent something that people have wanted for a long time. Nobody ever asked for a crappy copy-paste Zone of the Enders mode. This was something that DE pulled out because they felt like it, community be damned.

 

Honestly, I feel as if they did this on purpose. The significant problems that rot Warframe's core like the lack of endgame are difficult to address. DE, and even the players, have no real idea how to solve these problems, so archwing was made as a diversion. I think it was specifically made to draw attention away from these screaming trouble spots and DE can pretend to be progressing the game by sweeping them under the carpet yet again.

 

I'd like to forget it ever existed, just keep the epic music.

[fatpig84]

Archwings will be integral to the story line due to the Balor Formorians.

So expect them to take moar center stage soon.

 

And therefore, better farm moar.

[Nothson]

I'm gonna have to take OP's side on this. Admittedly, I haven't gotten around to *playing* archwing yet, so maybe it's so amazing I'll recant that but... I currently am disgusted by its presence.

 

What really bothers me is that nobody wanted it to start with. There's a loooong list of things that Warframe has been sorely lacking since it's inception, and Syndicates represent something that people have wanted for a long time. Nobody ever asked for a crappy copy-paste Zone of the Enders mode. This was something that DE pulled out because they felt like it, community be damned.

 

Honestly, I feel as if they did this on purpose. The significant problems that rot Warframe's core like the lack of endgame are difficult to address. DE, and even the players, have no real idea how to solve these problems, so archwing was made as a diversion. I think it was specifically made to draw attention away from these screaming trouble spots and DE can pretend to be progressing the game by sweeping them under the carpet yet again.

 

I'd like to forget it ever existed, just keep the epic music.

 

You do realize that games are not made by the players and right? You do know that if left up to the community the game would be an ultimate mess right? They are made by devs, if they want it then it will be in. Complaining about something like this is just idiotic. They either add something new and fresh that expands gameplay variety(like the archwing) while working on issues, or they keep simply making frame after frame and staying with the status quo while working on issues. The former is typically seen as a better development choice in both practice and in the view of the players overall. The archwing isn't magically making them no longer work on issues, and it isn't making them just stop with new non archwing.

 

As far as endgame goes, the only type of endgame that can exist in this type of game is really long grinds, which will just turn off the casual player. The nature of these grinding like games is to grind and progress and that is counter to endgame.

[Zanukacola]

You do realize that games are not made by the players and right? You do know that if left up to the community the game would be an ultimate mess right? They are made by devs, if they want it then it will be in. Complaining about something like this is just idiotic. They either add something new and fresh that expands gameplay variety(like the archwing) while working on issues, or they keep simply making frame after frame and staying with the status quo while working on issues. The former is typically seen as a better development choice in both practice and in the view of the players overall. The archwing isn't magically making them no longer work on issues, and it isn't making them just stop with new non archwing.

 

As far as endgame goes, the only type of endgame that can exist in this type of game is really long grinds, which will just turn off the casual player. The nature of these grinding like games is to grind and progress and that is counter to endgame.

I beg to differ. DE actually has a rather strong track record with listening to what players want, so discussing, gathering view points, and enumerating problems has the potential to be quite productive. 

 

I admit that the focus here has been on poking holes in or defending AW as a concept, but there have also been many suggestions. Despite my rather scathing review of it, I don't dismiss the possibility of Archwing being implemented in a better way; making an effort to create at least some transference between WF and AW (to borrow CoRRh's terminology) beyond shields and health would go a long way towards making AW feel like part of a cohesive whole.

 

Even the people who adamantly despise Archwing aren't looking for it to be eliminated entirely; they're largely asking to either opt-out or gain some transference between WF and AW. Neither of these things are even that hard to implement at a minimal level: AW missions could be positioned like nightmare missions, with an alternative land-based variant that gives the same rewards. Sentinels could achieve space-faring capabilities.

 

DE will probably never respond to this thread. But if so much as a single dev decides to take a look and maybe get an alternate perspective, I'd consider it mission accomplished.

[Gordyne]

"Despite all the issues Archwing has, and this is the same for a lot of things in life, IT HAS POTENTIAL."

 

Sorry, but WF core game also has potential...

 

And they only use like... 10% of it.

 

And now with AW beign priority I guess I can say goodbye to much needed balance and efforts to make combat more interesting.

 

Interest fading quickly...

Edited October 28, 2014 by Gordyne

[Gordyne]

 

Honestly, I feel as if they did this on purpose. The significant problems that rot Warframe's core like the lack of endgame are difficult to address. DE, and even the players, have no real idea how to solve these problems, so archwing was made as a diversion. I think it was specifically made to draw attention away from these screaming trouble spots and DE can pretend to be progressing the game by sweeping them under the carpet yet again.

 

I'd like to forget it ever existed, just keep the epic music.

 

I believe i have some great ideas to improve core gameplay, enemies and combat, I have over 20 years of intense gaming experience in many iterations of gameplay and combat mechanics.

 

But i've never seen any complex user ideas getting of the board and making into the game, only if its simple enough thing.

 

So I won't even bother.

[Nothson]

 

I beg to differ. DE actually has a rather strong track record with listening to what players want, so discussing, gathering view points, and enumerating problems has the potential to be quite productive. 

 

I admit that the focus here has been on poking holes in or defending AW as a concept, but there have also been many suggestions. Despite my rather scathing review of it, I don't dismiss the possibility of Archwing being implemented in a better way; making an effort to create at least some transference between WF and AW (to borrow CoRRh's terminology) beyond shields and health would go a long way towards making AW feel like part of a cohesive whole.

 

 

Listening and discussing with the community is not the same thing as them wanting to put something in. If a dev wants to put something in, they will. It is that simple. Is archwing perfect? Far from it. Does it deserve the scathing reviews that it gets from people thinking that it will take away from the game or from fixing issues? No it does not.

 

Why would more than shields and health transfer over? You don't use the weapons, or powers of the frame so why would anything pertaining to those be used?

 

I could see alternatives to AW for people that hate it, I'd be behind that. Giving it a horrid review simply because you hate it, and thus cannot look at it objectively, I cannot get behind.

 

 

I believe i have some great ideas to improve core gameplay, enemies and combat, I have over 20 years of intense gaming experience in many iterations of gameplay and combat mechanics.

 

But i've never seen any complex user ideas getting of the board and making into the game, only if its simple enough thing.

 

So I won't even bother.

 

The reason you don't see that is because the vast majority of user ideas when it comes to content sound good, but are either far too complex (thus hard to balance, code, implement), or simply suck when actually put in place.

 

Also you are jumping the gun in thinking that Archwing is the priority. It may be in the shortterm, in the long term, it won't be.

[Hypernaut1]

My only gripe with AW is that it doesnt use the Warframes abilities. IMO, The warframe powers should have been transferable somehow to AW gameplay, even if its just 1-2 abilities augmented by the wings. Maybe this something they can change in the future.

 

 

Other than that, i welcome new modes and gameplay types in WF. This is beta, so i see no problem with them expanding gameplay at times, and other times adding depth. As long as it isnt half-done, i dont see how it is a draw-back.

 

I wouldnt be suprised if they added ships, space combat and flying to other star systems to this game eventually.

[Renegade343]

Nah. Melee is for casuals.

 

I actually really like the gun. I expected it to have travel time, but since it's hitscan it's surprisingly easy to hit stuff with. Also it looks awesome.

 

I haven't tried the Corvas yet, but I'm hoping that one will be nice as well.

Well, those visual effects say otherwise to mess up a good strafing run. 

 

To be honest, having projectile visuals for a hit scan weapon makes for a rather confusing weapon to use at times. 

[fatpig84]

I believe i have some great ideas to improve core gameplay, enemies and combat, I have over 20 years of intense gaming experience in many iterations of gameplay and combat mechanics.

 

But i've never seen any complex user ideas getting of the board and making into the game, only if its simple enough thing.

 

So I won't even bother.

 

Dude i did game programming as a module. Had great amount of fun, but I eventually dropped it because the prospect of a 10 hour work day put me waaay off.

 

There is a rather large difference between having a lot of game ideas and making those ideas, work.

[Nitresco]

And now with AW beign priority I guess I can say goodbye to much needed balance and efforts to make combat more interesting.

 

Interest fading quickly...

The WF team has different divisions of people dedicated to seperate aspects of gameplay. Contrary to what I must overly emphasize as POPULAR belief, Archwing does not spell the end for everything else non-Archwing related.

 

 

But i've never seen any complex user ideas getting of the board and making into the game, only if its simple enough thing.

 

So I won't even bother.

Oh sure. Something has "never" been done before, so that's reason enough not to attempt it, right?

 

Nice passive-aggressiveness. Makes me wanna be in your shoes, alright.

[Dwei-]

I was about to write something to sound smart and witty, but I thankfully realized that this debate is as boring as people arguing about what type of hot pockets is the best.

 

Philly Cheesesteak has my vote, if anyone is planning to debate on that.

Enjoy your debate peeps.

[MihawkDulacr1]

God forbid letting something stay because a minor half of the playerbase isnt okay with it xD it will hur the main experience *sarcasm*

Even if you are not okay with it, archwing will stay - why? because it is fun for some peeps and DE wants to. Even if there would be an major outcry to remove it, the ONLY thing we could do is change mechanics of it , and that will already be taken care of by it simply being improved on a weekly basis.

Im sorry to not be that constructive, i just dont see a point in removing archwing - as it can only get better from now on. Just be open-minded and enjoy the game, it will be fine^^

Edited October 28, 2014 by MihawkDulacr1

[Vannell]

I honestly don't understand why you are complaining about new content

 

This.

[Stormfrenzy]

I believe i have some great ideas to improve core gameplay, enemies and combat, I have over 20 years of intense gaming experience in many iterations of gameplay and combat mechanics.

 

But i've never seen any complex user ideas getting of the board and making into the game, only if its simple enough thing.

 

So I won't even bother.

Gaming experience means nothing if you don't have any (game) programming experience at the professional level.

 

If you have no knowledge of the amount of work an "idea" would entail or the complexities of the supporting systems and/or environments, then your "ideas" are basically worthless. I know it comes as a shock to a lot of people how much hard work goes into making a modern computergame and the amount of special skills it requires, but there is a reason why design meetings are often as deadly boring for a computergame as it is for let's say, a new transmuter control system for the public rail or a consolidation system for a major investment bank.

 

Every little detail has to be planned, the impacts it might have on all surrounding systems must be evaluated, the amount of time it would take to make this change is always a factor, and then it must be tested, improved, bugfixed, and so on. In the end, the great "idea" is the infinitely minor component of computer game design.

[Stormfrenzy]

I would like Archwing a LOT more if i could use the Archwing's weapons in the core game or using the core game's weapons in Archwing. As is, it just seems like a mini-game that is in danger of being skipped, due to how little relevance it has to the main-game. 

 

I think DE has made a mistake by making it take an entire new weapon's set, and mod set, to even play the outer-space mission; it will split the game in half as people devote their time to one or the other. 

 

I like space combat, i just have no motivation to collect more gear for a mini-game. 

There is also the part of the playerbase who feel they are done collecting Warframes, Weapons, and MODs. For them a new mini-game could offer something else to collect.

 

For those who feel they must collect and max level everything, new items and MODs are what makes the game interesting.