Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[007-Creed]

I still wouldn't mind if the damage cap per frame was bigger (or if it wasn't there at all, I feel the speed limit of the bubble's size decrease is enough).

Either that, or give weapons like bows some kind of a buff against nullifiers. It takes forever to down their bubble, and when three of those guys gang up on you it's a nightmare (unless you bring a sidearm specifically for that case).

 

P.S. What would also be neat is if Nulls disrupted each others bubble upon entering it, and maybe adjust the AI so they avoid getting in range of their kin. It's really annoying when Nullifier's bubbles stack.

Lmao tell me about artic nullifer too, its funny tbh XD

[DEDENX]

 

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me. I am playing a variety of games right now that have 'that one enemy' that when appears sets me on a different course of action. Definitely open to more discussion and thoughts here. Thanks for your patience while this reply was put together (with details from the dev team). 

 

 

I agree they're different and they require a change of tactics -- and that's always a positive.  I'm just unsure why they're using such a seemingly over-complicated and highly unintuitive system for determining the size of their bubble shield.

 

Wouldn't it just be easier to give each bubble a fixed but regenerating health value and then scale the size of the bubble based on how much damage has been inflicted?  Simple interpolation between the current size and the desired target size could then be performed per frame to keep things from looking janky.

 

That way the high-damage, slow-firing weapons would take big noticable chunks out of the shields and the low-damage, fast-firing weapons would take little chips out of them.

Edited January 27, 2015 by DEDENX

[DoomFruit]

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me. I am playing a variety of games right now that have 'that one enemy' that when appears sets me on a different course of action. Definitely open to more discussion and thoughts here. Thanks for your patience while this reply was put together (with details from the dev team). 

We already knew this to some extent. The problem here is that they completely nullify single shot, high power, low ammo capacity weapons (this includes the already marginalised shotguns). They force you to use bullet hose weapons or die. I hate bullet hoses. I levelled my Soma Prime to 30 and barely even noticed that I had it equipped. I'm not going to bring it out again.

[WhiskeyGolf]

I will have to test it again tonight, but in my experience my Soma Prime never hit 100 damage - best I could get was 96 damage. On the other hand my Braton Prime was consistently doing about 265 damage, which I suppose is because the Braton Prime has a base damage 3 times higher than Soma Prime, and the nullifier doesn't work on crits.

 

I really wish sniper rifles would be viable against nullifiers. I'm getting really tired of charging them, unloading into them point blank, and then running away.

[NOSCOPE_xGET_GUDx_BLAZER]

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me.

 

sorry but forcing players to use high-ROF weapon instead of high-Alpha is not tactics, at all, it is a bad game design.

 

try gathering a party for long T4 survival/defense runs in recruitment channel and tell me when will be the first time you see someone with bow/sniper rifle/opticor.

 

T A C T I C S

 

also there is a such weapons in your game as Penta and Ogris, remember? i like them, i like to explode things, but its easier to kill a nullifier with unranked MK-1 weapon then with one of these two.

Edited January 27, 2015 by NOSCOPE_xGET_GUDx_BLAZER

[HollowExistence]

Nullifier = gear check.

It checks wether you have a boltor, soma, gammacor

Bottlenecking equipment isn't balance

Edited January 27, 2015 by HollowExistence

[DitsyPixie]

This is where we must complain. 400 max damage?

 

The problem we've had in warframe before the introduction of the Nullifier is that shotguns, snipers and similar long range weapons (with the exception of the Paris Prime and Dread) were a niche that didn't need to be fulfilled in the current style of gameplay.

 

Then with the Nullifier, they are heavy-hitting long-range units that rejected warframe abilities, making them ideal for sniping targets.

 

Except they resist bullets, too, making it impossible to snipe them before they snipe you assuming both of you have no cover. Do you understand the problem?

 

You've devalued long range weapons even further. Cue complaints, whining, blah blah this is year of balance blah. We have 18 pages of this argument already, I think whatever that has need of saying has already been said in these past 18 pages.

 

This is not right and needs change. What to? Well, look around, we've got 18 pages of this stuff.

 

 

Nulllifiers:

- Block warframe abilities, preventing direct measures against them and also AOE abilities that might include them in the radius

- And have an impenetrable shield that forces you to invest significant time to bring them down, while making a variety of weapons simply ineffective

- And remove buffs from warframes that enter their bubble to deal with them directly

- And have extreme firepower with zero chance of evasion at short range

- And become a relatively common enemy at higher levels, so the extent that they can stack up into super-bubbles

 

Something's gotta give.  If you guys want them to be as crazy as they are now, i.e. practically a miniboss, you have to limit their spawn rate. If you want them to be everywhere, they can't negate offensive magic, defensive magic and weaponry all at the same time.

 

:|

 

Just wanted to highlight these posts, I very much agree on the issues they talk about

Edited January 27, 2015 by DitsyPixie

[Sannidor]

For example, take any hack and slash/character action game (God of War, Marlow Briggs, Devil May Cry, etc). Usually there will be an enemy with a shield to block your attacks. Often when such an enemy comes into play, the game introduces a shield breaker combo for your weapons. You will always have a way to break the shield when each weapon has a shield breaker combo.

 

You may not remember or not play WF yet but we had a cool mechanics on shielded Grineer, allowing to take their shields with Mag's pull or Valkyr's ripline, possibly more ways but I forgot ;)

 

Our equivalent of responding to Nullifiers in a paper-rock-scissors way is rushing into bubble with melee. 

 

The fact that we lose all buffs from powers inside and these enemies tend to show in groups makes it a poor choice. 

[Llyssa]

 

Incoming explanation for how shield destruction works at this time:

 

The Nullifier shields are destroyed based on a series of calculations performed based your weapon's damage (enhanced/mitigated within a formula) per frame and the 'shrink rate' of the Nullifier Shields. 

 

Every frame a sample is taken of damage done to the Nullifier Shield.

 

Step 1) If the amount of damage is less than 100, it is set to 100. If the amount of damage is greater than 400, it is set to 400. 

Step 2) Divide that amount by 100 and multiply the default shrink rate (6% of max size for Corpus, 4% of max size for Corrupted) by that value.

 

If you're keen on the calculations and know a thing or two about math, click the spoiler for the real 'under-the-hood':

 

 

 

Example 1 - You hit it with a Braton and do 18 damage.  Step 1 indicates anything less than 100 is set to 100, so we perform that. Then, divide that value by 100 == 1.0. Then, we multiply the default shrink rate by that value. So for a Corpus Nullifier its 6%, which equates to:

0.06 * 1.0 = 0.06. We then shrink the shield by that amount.

 

Example 2 -  You hit it with something stronger, doing 150 damage. 150/100 = 1.5 * 0.06 = 0.09 == shrink the shield by 9% of the max size.

 

Example 3 - You hit the shield for 1000 damage. That's greater than 400, so I set it to 400. 400/100 = 4.0 * 0.06 = 0.24. So the shield is shrunk by 24%

 

And those values are based on the current size of the shield, not always max size. So the shield starts at a 1.5x scale, and if the first shot is multiplied by 4x to drop it by 24%, it will now decrease to 1.15x scale. The next shot will decrease it to a scale that is 24% less than 1.15, which is around 0.87.

 

So there are some diminishing returns there as the shield is damaged. 

 

Another thing to consider - the shield responds to damage per frame. So if you shoot it with a weapon like the Hek that hits it with multiple pellets in a single frame, it's the cumulative damage of those shots that is considered. So hitting it with 3 pellets at once, each doing 1000 damage really isn't any different than hitting it once for 1000 damage. Since in both cases, that damage is normalized down to the max multiplier of 4x.

 

However, there would be an impact if you are using a weaker weapon that does less than 400 per pellet! 

 

Now, clearly to me it's the mitigation within the formula that has all of our Arsenals at a loss on the 'best way' to deal with this enemy- but if you are a Corpus you say 'Yes, our Damage Reduction system technology is working quite well'. If you fire with your 4x Forma'd Dread and expect your usual damage output to be reflected, it won't.  This leads us to where we are today with our Nullifier feedback and experiences. 

 

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me. I am playing a variety of games right now that have 'that one enemy' that when appears sets me on a different course of action. Definitely open to more discussion and thoughts here. Thanks for your patience while this reply was put together (with details from the dev team). 

 

That explains why rakta ballistica is godly against them--the bolts from each volley don't strike it in the same frame.

[Kurnuttaja]

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me. I am playing a variety of games right now that have 'that one enemy' that when appears sets me on a different course of action. Definitely open to more discussion and thoughts here. Thanks for your patience while this reply was put together (with details from the dev team). 

 

My experience is the complete opposite. Before nullis were added I was working on OPticor to get something different to use than boltOr P on high level void, now with nullis Im again stuck with boltOr P.

[Psycomet]

 

 

-snip-

 

Gee I don't know what to say, I'm not sure whether this info makes it better or worse. We already knew and experienced nullifiers not being affected by damage, and now you're telling us that THEY ARE, but that the effect of that extra damage is almost insignificant. Why not just go with the first explanation for simplicity!

 

The reason why I say the difference between 9% and 24% is insignificant is that weapons like braton will decrease its shield by 9% 3 times every second... so 27% in 1 second, whereas a Vectis, with less than 1 shot per 1.5 second reduces it by roughly 15% per second?

 

I will just quote the others above me who have put it so well:

HyokaChan

The problem we've had in warframe before the introduction of the Nullifier is that shotguns, snipers and similar long range weapons (with the exception of the Paris Prime and Dread) were a niche that didn't need to be fulfilled in the current style of gameplay.

 

You've devalued long range weapons even further.

 

I might add that nullifiers are so much fun and I love them. But you can't force playstyles like these on people and expect them to be happy. Imagine how I feel when the only weapons I use are shotguns and snipers.

 

Their Lanka is also too fast in firing and too accurate even when I'm going left and right like crazy. On top of that they seem to do an insane amount of damage without charging. An enemy must have a weakness that justifies him being so strong in one aspect of combat. They NEVER  show any tendency to charge their weapons (neither do sniper crewmen), and it seems like the charge function was removed just to make them stronger.

 

So bottomline, good and fantastic addition to the game but yes they need to be looked over especially when they affect the battlefield SO significantly.

[Llyssa]

*just keeps repeating "get a ballistica" until people stop being angry about this*

[V0LK]

Oh, and BTW: if DE do come to their senses and do something about obvious issue, mark my word it'll be mod. You'll see, they'll just release a rare +damage to Nullifier shield and will call it a day.

[Psycomet]

*just keeps repeating "get a ballistica" until people stop being angry about this*

I have the ballistica. I have used it against them but it isn't very effective if I remember correctly.

 

A workaround isn't a solution you know! xD

[HyokaChan]

I agree they're different and they require a change of tactics -- and that's always a positive.  I'm just unsure why they're using such a seemingly over-complicated and highly unintuitive system for determining the size of their bubble shield.

They do and they don't.

 

They require that you bring a high RoF weapon to fight against them. However, the current, most common weapon that sits at the top of the game is the Boltor Prime. The versatility and power of the Boltor Prime is so high that there isn't a need for any other weapon. People don't always like that, hence we see Opticors, Paris Prime, Dread and the like. We're basically trying to find alternatives that approach a similar level of killing efficiency. However, current tactics can consist of "take modded Boltor Prime x4" and easily clear any non-endless mission and survive until the second rotation C in endless missions. The thing is: Boltor Prime is a high RoF weapon.

 

The Nullifier unit does ask for "tactics" involving bringing high RoF weapons, but as a high RoF weapon is the norm and the most common, we must conclude that the Nullifier, in context, does not change existing common tactics, and instead invalidates any that deviate from the norm.

Edited January 27, 2015 by HyokaChan

[Renegade343]

*just keeps repeating "get a ballistica" until people stop being angry about this*

Or: 

 

- All the automatic machine pistols. 

- Marelok or Grinlok (slow firing)

- Kraken or Sicarus (Prime)

- Latron series

- Burston series

- Braton series

- LMG series (Gorgon, Supra, Soma etc.)

- Throwing knifes and stars

- Melee weapons (almost all of them)

- All continuous beam weapons

- Assault rifles (Dera, Tetra, Karak etc.)

- Grakata

- Vulkar (yes, I have been murdering Nullifier Crewmen shields and them with a Vulkar). 

- Panthera

[HyokaChan]

 

- Panthera

Panthera's alt fire is a continuous trigger type so it should be shoved with the rest of the continuous weapons.

[Renegade343]

Panthera's alt fire is a continuous trigger type so it should be shoved with the rest of the continuous weapons.

I use the main fire for bringing down shields. 

 

Unless you are considering that the Panthera has no main fire. 

[Xtenz]

Nullifier mechanics are unhealthy for the game , it destroys way too much the balance .  

 

To be clear  : i will talk about endgame nulifiers in the void (and especially in survival)

 

I will start my speech by saying , i love difficulty i absolutely loved the addition of all the mutalists units   , i loved the butcher and bombards addition to the void , but i think  the addition of nulifiers are unhealthy for the game  , and i will explain you why below .

 

 

So why are nullifiers unhealthy for the game ?

 

There is two main ways to add gameplay into a game , there is the Reactive way  ( I see something happening i have to do this  to avoid it ) and the Proactive way to add gameplay ( I know this will happen so i have to do this to avoid it)

 

Most of the units in corpus/ infested / and some grineer are in the Reactive category . 

For example , heavy rocket launcher units are réactive units because you can dodge their rockets , or any basic corpus unit  , or drones, or butchers , or any infested including moas bumpers ( you know what i mean) or moa spitters , ancients healers , etc .. 

 

And about the proactive units we have , basic grineer units , the corpus machinery ( the fusion moa) , Heavy machine gunners , grineer snipers and nulifiers ( but i will talk about them just after this ) . All those units hurt a lot once they reach high level , but at least they give you 1-2 seconds to do a reactive play   , wich mean even tho they are proactive type units you can do a réactive play when you are taken by surprise due to their lack of raw power (i am still okay'ish with this) , ill also add that my feedback  is based  on lvl 100-115 void t4 units so this probably become a major problem too,  later on. Basically proactive units are units that have hitscan weapons. And the only really good unit gameplay-wise in this section is the Fusion Moa , since you can do something , without picking a particular warframe to avoid damage , you just have to stay away from him and kill him from mid/long range.

 

I think reactive units are healthy for the game since they promote what we call " skill" , if you're good enough , you will dodge the damage (ninja , isnt it ?)

 

Now that i have explained the categories , ill explain why nulifiers are such a problem in their current state .

 

Nullifiers force aggro on them since you can't clear the waves if you ignore them .

Which mean you have to take time to kill them in priority before you can kill the others.(in the nulifier bubble)

Which mean that time becomes a resource whose value goes higher.

Which means you need warframes & weapons that give you that time .(mainly crowd control waframes for other units that can be anywhere allowing the group to not being taken by surprise but also tanking warframes , and high fire rate weapon to destroy the nulifier bubble faster)

Which means it imbalance the game even more in the same way than before . (utility OP)

 

 

but this is not everything !

 

Nullifiers one shot  squishy warframes once they reach a certain level , you may be wall jumping/slipping/jumping/rofl coptering , if they see you they will one shot you (because they are proactive units ) so you need to have the solution beforehand. 

 

Having a solution beforehand means that you need a valid team-comp .

A valid team-composition is a teamcomp that gives you time to do things. (because nullifiers takes way too much time to deal with later on)

 

What give you time to do things ?

 

 

 Crowd control &  tankyness .

 

The loop is now closed.

 

Conclusion :

 

To beat high level nulifiers you have to "tank as much as you can" (on any form) while you DPS as much as you can the Bubble while you  Crowd control everyone else . It has become a "Bruteforce" battle and it made me frustrated while playing the game. (never happenned before ) 

 

But also Damage type warframes and also snipers/bows/shotguns have taken once again a hit into the face . They are less viable than they were before , even when there was already better choices.

 

What i mean is right now , a good ember player would never bring as much as  a good nova  , or a sniper/bow/shotgun  would never bring as much  as  soma P/boltor P/latron P in a t4 survival mission ; assuming that the concerned persons are at the same "skill level" .

 

If you give too much utility/power to one unit it will "imbalance" way more the game than you think . The addition of nullifier made people doing safer compositions in order to be able to deal with those units , instead of creating a variety of gameplay you FORCE one . And this is a really bad thing in my opinion .

Edited January 27, 2015 by Xtenz

[Shanicus]

What if... what if we just made it so piercing mods allowed you to shoot through enemy defenses like Nulifier shields (and Snowglobes because hell, why not)? They already punch through the Grineers version of a power blocker - granted that's just a thin metal shield - but it still already works to help circumvent some enemy defenses.

 

Given most/all Sniper and Bow weapons (I don't know about the Vectis, been a while since I've used it) have innate piercing, that helps mitigate that problem already, and slapping a piercing mod on a shotgun/slow fire weapon could help there too. Granted it's not the best solution for Shotguns/AoE weapons against the shields, but, it's something.

[BrazilianJoe]

Make the Nullifier shield a thin bubble, not a solid sphere. Say the player slides inthe bubble and throws a fireball. THe fireball would explode inside the nullifier shield but not affect the outside, possibly killing the nullifier crewman and disabling the shield. 

 

and punch-through would just pass and kill the crewman. 

[(NSW)LilVanu]

I usually run into the shield and slam them with my Serro, but guess what!

I can't do that either because melee weapons seem to be broken.

 

Every time I bring it with me in a session it gets stuck in a loop of me trying to get out my weapon and then my character putting it away.

[Katinka]

 

Incoming explanation for how shield destruction works at this time:

 

The Nullifier shields are destroyed based on a series of calculations performed based your weapon's damage (enhanced/mitigated within a formula) per frame and the 'shrink rate' of the Nullifier Shields. 

 

Every frame a sample is taken of damage done to the Nullifier Shield.

 

Step 1) If the amount of damage is less than 100, it is set to 100. If the amount of damage is greater than 400, it is set to 400. 

Step 2) Divide that amount by 100 and multiply the default shrink rate (6% of max size for Corpus, 4% of max size for Corrupted) by that value.

 

If you're keen on the calculations and know a thing or two about math, click the spoiler for the real 'under-the-hood':

 

 

 

Example 1 - You hit it with a Braton and do 18 damage.  Step 1 indicates anything less than 100 is set to 100, so we perform that. Then, divide that value by 100 == 1.0. Then, we multiply the default shrink rate by that value. So for a Corpus Nullifier its 6%, which equates to:

0.06 * 1.0 = 0.06. We then shrink the shield by that amount.

 

Example 2 -  You hit it with something stronger, doing 150 damage. 150/100 = 1.5 * 0.06 = 0.09 == shrink the shield by 9% of the max size.

 

Example 3 - You hit the shield for 1000 damage. That's greater than 400, so I set it to 400. 400/100 = 4.0 * 0.06 = 0.24. So the shield is shrunk by 24%

 

And those values are based on the current size of the shield, not always max size. So the shield starts at a 1.5x scale, and if the first shot is multiplied by 4x to drop it by 24%, it will now decrease to 1.15x scale. The next shot will decrease it to a scale that is 24% less than 1.15, which is around 0.87.

 

So there are some diminishing returns there as the shield is damaged. 

 

Another thing to consider - the shield responds to damage per frame. So if you shoot it with a weapon like the Hek that hits it with multiple pellets in a single frame, it's the cumulative damage of those shots that is considered. So hitting it with 3 pellets at once, each doing 1000 damage really isn't any different than hitting it once for 1000 damage. Since in both cases, that damage is normalized down to the max multiplier of 4x.

 

However, there would be an impact if you are using a weaker weapon that does less than 400 per pellet! 

 

Now, clearly to me it's the mitigation within the formula that has all of our Arsenals at a loss on the 'best way' to deal with this enemy- but if you are a Corpus you say 'Yes, our Damage Reduction system technology is working quite well'. If you fire with your 4x Forma'd Dread and expect your usual damage output to be reflected, it won't.  This leads us to where we are today with our Nullifier feedback and experiences. 

 

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me. I am playing a variety of games right now that have 'that one enemy' that when appears sets me on a different course of action. Definitely open to more discussion and thoughts here. Thanks for your patience while this reply was put together (with details from the dev team).

 

 

Thanks for the explanation!

 

That's quite interesting to read.  Would that mean bows could reduce the shield quicker by launching uncharged shots rapidly?  That sounds kinda cool to me.  It also explains why my Burston Prime can drop a nullifier shield in two bursts since the burst fire doesn't hit simultaneously.

 

One thing that I have to ask though, if the damage is limited per frame does that mean we will be at an advantage if we have a higher frame rate?  

[Shimonoki_Ryuji]

 

Incoming explanation for how shield destruction works at this time:

 

The Nullifier shields are destroyed based on a series of calculations performed based your weapon's damage (enhanced/mitigated within a formula) per frame and the 'shrink rate' of the Nullifier Shields. 

 

Every frame a sample is taken of damage done to the Nullifier Shield.

 

Step 1) If the amount of damage is less than 100, it is set to 100. If the amount of damage is greater than 400, it is set to 400. 

Step 2) Divide that amount by 100 and multiply the default shrink rate (6% of max size for Corpus, 4% of max size for Corrupted) by that value.

 

If you're keen on the calculations and know a thing or two about math, click the spoiler for the real 'under-the-hood':

 

 

 

Example 1 - You hit it with a Braton and do 18 damage.  Step 1 indicates anything less than 100 is set to 100, so we perform that. Then, divide that value by 100 == 1.0. Then, we multiply the default shrink rate by that value. So for a Corpus Nullifier its 6%, which equates to:

0.06 * 1.0 = 0.06. We then shrink the shield by that amount.

 

Example 2 -  You hit it with something stronger, doing 150 damage. 150/100 = 1.5 * 0.06 = 0.09 == shrink the shield by 9% of the max size.

 

Example 3 - You hit the shield for 1000 damage. That's greater than 400, so I set it to 400. 400/100 = 4.0 * 0.06 = 0.24. So the shield is shrunk by 24%

 

And those values are based on the current size of the shield, not always max size. So the shield starts at a 1.5x scale, and if the first shot is multiplied by 4x to drop it by 24%, it will now decrease to 1.15x scale. The next shot will decrease it to a scale that is 24% less than 1.15, which is around 0.87.

 

So there are some diminishing returns there as the shield is damaged. 

 

Another thing to consider - the shield responds to damage per frame. So if you shoot it with a weapon like the Hek that hits it with multiple pellets in a single frame, it's the cumulative damage of those shots that is considered. So hitting it with 3 pellets at once, each doing 1000 damage really isn't any different than hitting it once for 1000 damage. Since in both cases, that damage is normalized down to the max multiplier of 4x.

 

However, there would be an impact if you are using a weaker weapon that does less than 400 per pellet! 

 

Now, clearly to me it's the mitigation within the formula that has all of our Arsenals at a loss on the 'best way' to deal with this enemy- but if you are a Corpus you say 'Yes, our Damage Reduction system technology is working quite well'. If you fire with your 4x Forma'd Dread and expect your usual damage output to be reflected, it won't.  This leads us to where we are today with our Nullifier feedback and experiences. 

 

Even if the enemy isn't perfect, they're different, and a change of tactics is a welcome addition in principle to me. I am playing a variety of games right now that have 'that one enemy' that when appears sets me on a different course of action. Definitely open to more discussion and thoughts here. Thanks for your patience while this reply was put together (with details from the dev team). 

 

 

So, is the way of destroying nullifier's shields going to be fixed or not?

Edited January 27, 2015 by Ryuji-kun

[Deus_X_Machina]

[...]

Thanks for clarifying that.

It would be nice if you could also get a clarifying statement of the game desginers, that they hate slow firing weapons.

I mean an explicit one, not an implicit one like that.

 

Before Nullifiers the most used weapons were fast firing ones.

The most crippled ans useless weapons were very slow firing ones.

 

So best to introduce an enemy that favors fast firing weapons.

 

 

Examples for shield types that favor slow firing weapons:

 

1) A Shield that absorbs an absolute bit of damage of each hit. For example 100 damage of each bullet. Slow firing weapons don't care, fast firing ones feel that very strong.

 

2) A Shield that gets bigger again very fast, but has a small shutdown period if it is taken down completly - a large single hit will take it out longer /faster than many small hits.