Could You Try And Tackle That Big Cow First? - Removing Serration

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Wasn't the suggestion more alternatives to serration rather than replacing? I think a head shot multiplier was mentioned. Personally. Think that is the way forward, give people alternatives, don't just scrap one must have mod for another.

There's a post in this thread suggesting vile acceleration over heavy cal, perhaps we just need to think before we mod?

[grimoireofalice]

The problem I see with serration is that you are forced to take it in every build. There is no damage build where taking serration is a bad choice. Even heavy caliber maxed doesn't rival Serration.

 

So in reality your weapons only have 7 slots and as a new player you must spend countless cores and cash on serration in order to compete with the games scaling curve.

 

Thats really the only purpose these damage % mods serve... Cash, Core and Time sinks.

[Innocent_Flower]

Wasn't the suggestion more alternatives to serration rather than replacing? I think a head shot multiplier was mentioned. Personally. Think that is the way forward, give people alternatives, don't just scrap one must have mod for another.

There's a post in this thread suggesting vile acceleration over heavy cal, perhaps we just need to think before we mod?

I'd rather just have alternatives, than serration and alternatives. We're assuming that the alternatives are instead of, rather than aswell, right?

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Gotta be honest, I'm attached to my serration so would like additions rather than replacements.

Maybe variations of serration, that can't be stacked?

Serration head shot. Basic 90% damage increase + an extra 90% on head shot

Serration crit, same stars but with crit.

Serration status, same stats but with proc.

That way there would be more synergy not only with the weapon but with the other mods used too.

[NezuHimeSama]

I think a more interesting approach would be, instead of messing hard with serration, have limits on the number of mods you can use for a particular category.

For example, damage would be a category(so, elemental damage, crit damage, and damage damage), mag would be another(increased mag size/reload speed), and handling for another(rof, recoil), with the last I can think of being bullet(multishot, proc, crit chance).

If you can only use, say, 4 of any category, it makes things interesting, but then that opens up problems with utility builds, which, from my understanding, aren't the target.(proc+ele is the best proc, but would also count as damage) This also nerfs nightmare mods which are already pretty lame for the most part.

Ex, a proc build typically consists of two or more proc+ele mods, hammershot on rifles, and that's three of your damage mods and bullet mods right there. Add split chamber and you have no more room for crit chance, and only one spot for crit damage or regular damage. Byebye latron?

Making crit it's own category could work, but then people will still complain about damage/crit builds. Could extend the allowance to 6 mods, but then it doesn't solve the issue to begin with.

 

I really don't think drastically revamping how mods work with the current game is worth investing in. Revamping how drain, capacity, and polarity works could be worth looking into(maybe even removing/increasing the hard-cap on equipped mods and focusing more on polarities/drain, and rebalancing how much capacity various mods consume) and would likely cause a lot less grief and be a lot easier to go from.

[VentiGlondi]

Multishot is a utility mod. It makes you shoot two bullets. Yes this does increase damage but that isn't an issue. So why do we need to mess up the damage tables for these boring mods?

Damage tables are already messed up.

[Dawnstrider]

If you seriously can't see that the mod system is the main problem Warframe has...

 

 

You want better AI? Well whats the point if you're just gonna one shot it everytime?

 

You want better movement? Why? I can just stand still and spray with my Soma Prime all day

 

You want actually good stealth? My sword kills dudes in one shot out of stealth so why bother

 

You want PVP that doesn't suck? Well too bad my latron prime's dps is 64-fold what it is unmodded now

 

You want ENDGAEM!!12? Yeah because DE is seriously going to make content purely for the 3% of the player base that have maxed out serration/hornet strike/redirection/vitality

 

Oh but that means it'll be too easy? Well maybe if the mod system didn't trivialise 95% of all engagements we might actually have a challenge...

 

Want less bullet sponge enemies? Well how else is DE going to create a challenge for your SUPER broken Synoid Gammacor?

 

You want less RNG? Maybe if we weren't blitzing content because of all these OP weapons maybe DE could come up with better systems for loot

 

You want boss battle that aren't a joke? Well it's pretty impossible to balance when the lowest possible damage and highest possible damage are so incredibly apart from one another that trying to cater to one or the other is problematic.

 

 

Power creep and the horrific scaling is the biggest flaw Warframe has. All these mods you will have on EVERY weapon. It's just false choice. But noooo we wouldn't want to stop you getting SUPER MLG 1 MILLION RED CRITS now would we?

[NezuHimeSama]

Better AI doesn't put it's self in the line of fire.(and actually, the AI isn't that bad, just restricted by technical limitations)

Warframe has awesome movement. Parkour is a bit stiff and sometimes buggy(being teleported back to the last ledge I hopped over is annoying, fix pls) but otherwise, the movement is amazing.

Stealth is unrelated to damage. Why bother mowing down 50 enemies and setting off all the alarms/having to unlock doors ect when you can just sneak past people? This is more on map design, however, and not a matter of "just make it better".

Who actually wants PVP in warfarm? PVE is best PV.

Endgame already exists. ATM, it's Tower 4 past wave 40, and fun fact: serration won't save you.

I'd like a less skewed RNG. Even drop tables would be nice. No relation to damage though.

Bosses scale to conclave iirc. Also, bosses that spend a lot of time invulnerable but are otherwise squishy seem to be pretty common, as well as having invincible periods and the like. This is a pretty good if a bit annoying for farming solution.

[DSpite]

 

Endgame already exists. ATM, it's Tower 4 past wave 40, and fun fact: serration won't save you.

 

 

Level 100 enemies here are not "real enemies", that's not proper scaling, even DE states there was never any balance applied there, just a simple formula to make them harder to kill. Challenge in the form of what people refer to as "bullet sponges" is not challenge or endgame.

 

You don't require either better reflexes or better situational awareness, it simply gets "harder" because they take more damage to kill.

 

Real endgame would be missions that have level ~40-60 enemies at the start just to balance out the fact the game already knows you have 6 forma in everything, and on top of that give you more intelligent enemies and force you to adapt to a changing situation.

 

We have to stop playing Tower Defense and actually HAVE "missions" that make players feel like a team of operatives. Right now we are basically playing Dungeon Defenders in defense and survival missions.

 

Asking DE to make a smarter AI is not what I would call an easy task though.

[Taranis49]

Better AI doesn't put it's self in the line of fire.(and actually, the AI isn't that bad, just restricted by technical limitations)

Warframe has awesome movement. Parkour is a bit stiff and sometimes buggy(being teleported back to the last ledge I hopped over is annoying, fix pls) but otherwise, the movement is amazing.

Stealth is unrelated to damage. Why bother mowing down 50 enemies and setting off all the alarms/having to unlock doors ect when you can just sneak past people? This is more on map design, however, and not a matter of "just make it better".

Who actually wants PVP in warfarm? PVE is best PV.

Endgame already exists. ATM, it's Tower 4 past wave 40, and fun fact: serration won't save you.

I'd like a less skewed RNG. Even drop tables would be nice. No relation to damage though.

Bosses scale to conclave iirc. Also, bosses that spend a lot of time invulnerable but are otherwise squishy seem to be pretty common, as well as having invincible periods and the like. This is a pretty good if a bit annoying for farming solution.

 

1.) An enemy kinda needs to put itself in the line of fire to engage. A a dude hiding behind a box isn't a challenging opponent, he's a target. Even then, it's related to the mod issue - it's why punch through's one of the few viable non-damage mods.

 

A lot of the stuff he lists are, the mod system trivializes so much of the content that it makes skill-based, engaging gameplay near-impossible. It's why near every boss addition/rework for the past year has included nonsensical invulnerability phases "oh, the game's not allowing me to blow him away yet". Vor's orb of infinite time wastage being a prime example (no pun intended), but far from the only one - most recently being Infested Alad.

 

And the newer enemy additions have been little more than bigger and bigger damage sponges to try and keep up with the player's damage output. The Ancient rework (which amounts to little more than them conferring damage sponginess of some sort to their buddies) and the newer units being good examples (e.g. Brood Mothers/Boilers being 2 to almost 3x as durable as Ancients). In theory, void nullifiers are maybe different, but not in practice.

[Kruglov]

It'd be nice if all the powerful single stat mods were split up into one of these:

 

 

1.) guns go up in damage as they level up and naturally gain damage as if they all have serration already installed (though with a lower max damage increase %). Since its an rpg it makes sense for guns to level up and gain power like frames do.

 

 

2.) If Serration were split up into several dual stat mods like shotguns have with Blaze and Accelerated Blast

- Focused Serration - accuracy and damage

- Shocking Serration - electric and damage

- Sliced Serration - multishot and damage

 

Obviously none would be near as powerful as the current serration.

Do the same thing to Split Chamber, split it into several submods. Voila.

[Otaiken]

Utility mods will never surpass damage mods. That's because they're not meant to do so... they're utility mods for a reason.

 

When you remove Serration most players will just move to the next best thing... that is more damage. If more damage isn't available they'll move to the most beneficial utility mod. People that already use those utility mods will continue using them... or maybe add one more or (which is more likely) use that space for more damage.

 

You choose now, you choose between paper DPS and personal DPS. If you miss a lot, then you'll benefit more from magazine/reload than more damage.

 

Funnily enough, what people really want when they say that Serration should be removed is more damage. Not having to choose between more utility or damage... they want both. How is that promoting choice? So just ask for utility mod slot and stop playing this "customization" game.

 

Why can't I have both the max damage AND reload speed AND procs AND magazine size AND so on... utility mod slot. Done. And no, you'll get no powercreepy energy out of it!

 

If the enemies are too bullet spongy... well, that's the problem with the enemies, not the mods. The scaling is off the whack in general. Don't see why we need to completely kill player damage progression for that.

Edited January 11, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[LtZefar]

Damage tables are already messed up.

No they are not.

 

They work as they are supposed to do and the game is the type of that will give a good reward for modding well. Yes this will make lower level stuff easy but that is to be expected with maxed out gears. Otherwise there would be no point in progressing if you don't get more powerful.

 

If you make so the weapons can't get that much more powerful it'll be boring because no matter how many mods you throw in it'll still feel weak.

Remember those normal damage mods that got reduced down to 30%? I don't use them anymore. Ever. That's what happen when you nerf something to oblivion.

 

So what DE needs to focus on is these two things.

 

More mods that are viable. Enough of them so that you actually have to pick between them. Give them different effects and such.

 

Make the enemies a bit more dumber but make them come in larger numbers. Also make them less bullet spongey but this is mostly for heavy units.

[NezuHimeSama]

Honestly, all the complaints about direct damage being OP, but then people turn around and whine about bullet sponges late game, where direct damage no longer scales?

What do you want, enemies to take more hits to down, or enemies to die easier? High level "not real enemies" provide real challenge, forcing players to use things other than the direct damage everyone complains is too central, and yet people don't like that.

And when DE introduces things to increase the actual challenge(bombards with their cheap-&#! seeking AOE missiles, nuls with their OP snipers and immunity to 4) people whine about that...

 

Everyone wants everything to be fixed right now but whines about "bandaid" fixes, and dismisses anything that undermines the legitimacy of their complaint.

[Monolake]

Why are people acting like these Utility mods are worth messing up the entire damage tables for?

 

They just add some boring stats.

 

Faster reload

More bullets

More bullets in magazine

Faster shooting

Make less noise

 

Did I forget some other boring ones?

 

Multishot is a utility mod. It makes you shoot two bullets. Yes this does increase damage but that isn't an issue. So why do we need to mess up the damage tables for these boring mods? :/

calling  damage multiplier utility mod?  please

[HyokaChan]

I always wonder what people mean when they demand there be more variety in weapon builds. Exactly what kind of variety are we talking about here? I mean, I've never heard anyone asking that my braton be able to fire rockets or nets.... what do you mean?

Can I have a mod that makes all weapons fire lasers instead

 

Please

[Kruglov]

Can I have a mod that makes all weapons fire lasers instead

 

Please

 

As much as I hate to bring up another game (especially one as bad as the one I'm about to mention), Firefall recently added a customization to guns that does just this.

 

Replaces bullets in guns with small energy lasers that do higher damage but arent hitscan.

 

Probably one of the only interesting things they've added to that planecrash of a game.

[Rozgriz]

I heard an idea which was removing serration mod ,make base damage grows as they rank up ,like our warframes when reached 30 the warframe automatically have the highest level of skill set ,unlike in the past you need to level up specific skill mod and equip it.

Which is basically make every weapon have innate max level damage boost when rank 30 .

And add more utility mods ,like weapon augmentation or something like thunderbolt .

[Azamagon]

I'd rather have this:

 

* Nerf (don't remove) all plain damage increasers. If Serration and similar mods only gave, say, 5% bonus per rank, it would be good, but not as overpoweredly amazing as it is now. If elemental mods gave max 60% bonus, while the dualstat ones only gave 40%, they'd also be less crazy in scaling. It's the only thing you can do now, really. Removing it now is too difficult.

* Split multishot up into two different mods:

1) Current multishot mods = Chance to shoot an extra bullet, but at the cost of consuming an additional bullet. More burst, less ammo

2) Add new "freeshot" mods = Chance that one of your bullets is not consumed from your mag. Works on multishot-procs too!

So, if you wanna keep the current multishot-power, you need to equip BOTH of these mods at once.

* Add 4 utility slots for all weapons (and Warframes, but that's offtopic). Here you put mods that affect don't directly affect damage/burst dps very much, stuff like: Reload, magsize, silencers, zoom, recoil, projectile speed, weapon range, projectile bounces etc. More powerful utility mods, such as the suggested "freeshot" ones, would still be in the regular 8 power slots.

 

Tadaaaa, tone down insane scalings AND add more fun customization at once! What's not to like?

[LtZefar]

I'd rather have this:

 

* Nerf (don't remove) all plain damage increasers. If Serration and similar mods only gave, say, 5% bonus per rank, it would be good, but not as overpoweredly amazing as it is now. If elemental mods gave max 60% bonus, while the dualstat ones only gave 40%, they'd also be less crazy in scaling. It's the only thing you can do now, really. Removing it now is too difficult.

 

 

That would make it painful to level up and it wouldn't feel as rewarding as it is now. I hate MMORPG that only boost your power by a tiny tiny bit because it almost always leads to "Not gonna be worth it unless you max the S#&$ out".

 

They nerfed the normal damage mods down to 30% on Rifles and it made me stop using them all together. On secondaries I MIGHT use them if the weapon is geared towards that damage type.

 

 

* Split multishot up into two different mods:

1) Current multishot mods = Chance to shoot an extra bullet, but at the cost of consuming an additional bullet. More burst, less ammo

 

 

Basically killing the mod because I can just throw in bigger magazine and get the same effect but with no drawbacks. HURRAY!

Also making enemies more bullet spongey with this would just make the game more boring.

Not to mention it's not Multishot anymore.

 

 

2) Add new "freeshot" mods = Chance that one of your bullets is not consumed from your mag. Works on multishot-procs too!

So, if you wanna keep the current multishot-power, you need to equip BOTH of these mods at once.

 

 

Or one could just use the increased maximum ammo mod and get the same effect without any RNG crap. Or just slot in damage mods instead. Rather than relying on RNG to give you a free bullet.

 

 

 

* Add 4 utility slots for all weapons (and Warframes, but that's offtopic). Here you put mods that affect don't directly affect damage/burst dps very much, stuff like: Reload, magsize, silencers, zoom, recoil, projectile speed, weapon range, projectile bounces etc. More powerful utility mods, such as the suggested "freeshot" ones, would still be in the regular 8 power slots.

 

Tadaaaa, tone down insane scalings AND add more fun customization at once! What's not to like?

 

Four utility slots?

Lets see what we got.

 

Faster Reload

Faster Fire rate

Bigger Magazine

Maximum ammo increase.

 

Oh would you look at that, 4 mandatory mods on all of those slots because.

 

Less noise is useless.

Extra explosion radius only works on like 4-5 weapons. For those you could slot out maximum ammo.

Extra zoom is useless.

Increased range on laser like weapons. Well the thing is, it's mostly useless. 

Thunderbolt lost it's purpose when you couldn't mod it's damage value. So it's only useful on low level stages.

 

Multishot mods have been wrecked to the point where the normal mods are far better to use. Also one might just use a Primed mod alongside with the normal mods too if they don't need Maximum ammo increase.

 

All though if the free shots get over 100% you've made Ammo packs useless and all the drops could just be removed when this is on. This could also lead to some ridiculous moments where weapons can just fire 24/7. Fully automatic Soma Prime just holding down the fire button through the entire level. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

Got to love how everybody is talking about reducing efficiency of the damage mods but nobody says anything about enemy exponential HP/Armor scaling. Why don't you nerf-advocating guys try and go to Ceres-Kiste and equip a gun with 50% reduced mods (5/10 serration, 3/5 elementals and etc)? Soma (Pr) and Boltor (Pr) aren't allowed. No Nova (Pr) too.

Come back and tell us how much fun it would be to fight bullet sponges who would take ages to kill.

[Innocent_Flower]

Why are people acting like these Utility mods are worth messing up the entire damage tables for?

 

They just add some boring stats.

Because adding more damage so that enemies on the end of your unchanging gun die faster is far more interesting than altering the mechanics of your gun?

 

Honestly, all the complaints about direct damage being OP, but then people turn around and whine about bullet sponges late game, where direct damage no longer scales?

 

People whine about both of those, because the scaling is so poor, meaning both are applicable. Try a 40 min survival where both happen. 

[Azamagon]

Ok, then mr. Negative:

1) That would make it painful to level up and it wouldn't feel as rewarding as it is now. I hate MMORPG that only boost your power by a tiny tiny bit because it almost always leads to "Not gonna be worth it unless you max the S#&$ out".

 

2) They nerfed the normal damage mods down to 30% on Rifles and it made me stop using them all together. On secondaries I MIGHT use them if the weapon is geared towards that damage type.

 

3) Basically killing the mod because I can just throw in bigger magazine and get the same effect but with no drawbacks. HURRAY!

Also making enemies more bullet spongey with this would just make the game more boring.

Not to mention it's not Multishot anymore.

 

4) Or one could just use the increased maximum ammo mod and get the same effect without any RNG crap. Or just slot in damage mods instead. Rather than relying on RNG to give you a free bullet.

 

5) Four utility slots?

Lets see what we got.

 

Faster Reload

Faster Fire rate

Bigger Magazine

Maximum ammo increase.

 

Oh would you look at that, 4 mandatory mods on all of those slots because.

 

Less noise is useless.

Extra explosion radius only works on like 4-5 weapons. For those you could slot out maximum ammo.

Extra zoom is useless.

Increased range on laser like weapons. Well the thing is, it's mostly useless. 

Thunderbolt lost it's purpose when you couldn't mod it's damage value. So it's only useful on low level stages.

 

6) Multishot mods have been wrecked to the point where the normal mods are far better to use. Also one might just use a Primed mod alongside with the normal mods too if they don't need Maximum ammo increase.

 

All though if the free shots get over 100% you've made Ammo packs useless and all the drops could just be removed when this is on. This could also lead to some ridiculous moments where weapons can just fire 24/7. Fully automatic Soma Prime just holding down the fire button through the entire level. 

1) Well, shame that you think that way about more balanced numbers. The fact that it helps newcomers (since they aren't left out of so much damage) didn't cross your mind? Or you simply don't care about a healthier, more balanced and newbie-friendlier game? If you don't, then, to quote the red veil: "You have become part of the problem".

 

2) The physical damage mods are a whole different story: They only get affected by said physical damagetype AND have lower numbers. If they worked like elemental mods (boosted by the whole basedamage) and got more equal values to elemental ones, they would be far more useful.

 

3) Do you say the same about fire rate mods? They do effectively the same, but not as powerfully. Better yet, they still stack with fire rate mods. And bigger magazine mods have much lower numbers, thus safer, yes, but far less powerful. Also, magazine mods don't affect your BURST dps, only your sustained.

 

4) Compleeeeetely ignoring the fact that a freeshot proc is indirectly equal to these mods, all at once: Magsize increase and thus gets higher sustained dps (mag lasts longer), max ammo increaser, BOTH for your reserves AND the magazine (540 spare bullets turn into say, 800 bullets instead), ammo scavenger (20 bullets can become worth 30 bullets) and they STACK with damageincreasing mods (you can equip both ya know?)

How would this mod be a bad mod in any way? You simply didn't think that through enough...

 

5) Wow, that's INCREDIBLY narrowminded

* First, I said utility mods that don't affect BURST dps. So fire rate wouldn't be a utility mod.

* Yes, reload, magsize and max ammo would all be nice overall. And so would ammo mutation. But they are not necessary for your burst dps, the most powerful attribute you can have and people like different kinds of utility.

* Zoom mods can be useful if you know you are gonna play a map with long ranges. But did you know that zoommods actually slightly increases your accuracy a bit while zooming? Sure, it is a very tiny amount, but it still improves it. If that secondary effect was heightened to a more noticeable amount, I bet a LOT more people would use it.

* Extra explosion range can mean a big difference for a shot to kill, say 5 or 10 enemies. So it does have an impact. Just not as easily or as powerfully as punchthrough does. But it still does a difference so neglecting it would be very stupid.

* Increased range is actually very useful for the continuous weapons. Think about the Embolist for example, you DOUBLE its range, pretty much. Sure, the mod could maybe use a bit of a buff, but it is still a great one to use, especially if you pair that with a punchthrough mod...

* Thunderbolt is a POWER mod, not utility, which needs rebalancing. It certainly is not a utility mod.

 

6) Umm... wow, so many wrong facts AGAIN:

* Multishot would still be a tremendously powerful burst dps increaser, like I said before. Combine it with freeshot and they would be similar in effect to current multishot, just requiring two modslots. Still powerful, just a bit more requiring for such tremendous power.

* Primed mods (a horrible idea in the first place) cannot be used with their regular versions, so that point is just moot.

* Freeshot would obviously never get over 100%, just like power efficiency doesn't / has a cap on it, since they are exponentially good. That would just be stupid otherwise.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Azamagon

[Azamagon]

Got to love how everybody is talking about reducing efficiency of the damage mods but nobody says anything about enemy exponential HP/Armor scaling. Why don't you nerf-advocating guys try and go to Ceres-Kiste and equip a gun with 50% reduced mods (5/10 serration, 3/5 elementals and etc)? Soma (Pr) and Boltor (Pr) aren't allowed. No Nova (Pr) too.

Come back and tell us how much fun it would be to fight bullet sponges who would take ages to kill.

We always are talking about that. Nerf damagemods and nerf enemy defensive scaling both at once. You have to, they go hand in hand of course. It helps modding variety AND makes it easier for the newbies who have troubles acquiring damage-boosting mods.

 

This is OBVIOUS, why isn't it obvious to you?

[EvilChaosKnight]

We always are talking about that. Nerf damagemods and nerf enemy defensive scaling both at once. You have to, they go hand in hand of course. It helps modding variety AND makes it easier for the newbies who have troubles acquiring damage-boosting mods.

 

This is OBVIOUS, why isn't it obvious to you?

Because there isn't a single word about it in any of the replies besides mine. In fact I am yet to see another suggestion which would include anything about enemy scaling. All I can see right now is "Game is too easy, nerf plz"

Basically, what this guy said

Honestly, all the complaints about direct damage being OP, but then people turn around and whine about bullet sponges late game, where direct damage no longer scales?

What do you want, enemies to take more hits to down, or enemies to die easier? High level "not real enemies" provide real challenge, forcing players to use things other than the direct damage everyone complains is too central, and yet people don't like that.

And when DE introduces things to increase the actual challenge(bombards with their cheap-! seeking AOE missiles, nuls with their OP snipers and immunity to 4) people whine about that...

 

Everyone wants everything to be fixed right now but whines about "bandaid" fixes, and dismisses anything that undermines the legitimacy of their complaint.

Nobody replied to his concerns either.

 

If people actually had a sense to pick the equipment fit for their desired play style, we would've had no complains like this topic. You go to Mercury - Jupiter? Why do you have 5-forma Boltor Pr on you? Do you really need that Nova on defence on Mars? No. You might gear yourself up just enough to make the mission fun and challenging enough.

Or you can faceroll through it and then complain how game is just too easy. That works too.

 

The only thing we need right now honestly are additional separate utility slots for stuff like reload speed and magazine capacity. Everything else would break the current system for a while before DE will manage to balance it out properly. Think of it as Scaling 2.0.

Far too many things are connected to each other so it's better to be careful when applying major changes like that.