Un-Nerf The Ignis! Seriously!

[Holeypaladin]

Ignis.  A flamethrower that doesn't require precise accuracy to hit your opponents.

 

Ignis.  The only flamethrower in the game.  A very, very good concept: burn everything in front of you with cleansing hot fire.

 

Ignis.  The absolute lowest DPS primary weapon in the game, completely nonviable for all high-level content.

 

With its massive... 100 DPS... the Ignis is the only weapon I can think of with LOWER DPS than MK-1 Braton, the starter rifle (whose DPS is 135).  Look at warframe builder sometime.  Go ahead, I'll wait.  Sort it by burst DPS.  Now scroll all the way down to the bottom of the list.  Ignore lanka, since it's only factoring in lanka's uncharged shot and not the charged shot.  See it there?  Yeah, right there below the mk-1 paris.

 

For such an amazingly cool weapon concept... it has absolute garbage for damage.  Now I'm not asking that ignis have some kind of massive DPS like Amprex, the other multiple-target rifle... but something that's not absolute garbage would be nice!

 

I'd love to use the ignis, really I would.  I actually did use it a lot back when it was a good weapon.  But since the damage nerfed it down to the absolute lowest damage weapon in the game... it's seriously unplayable in any sort of high level content.

 

Bring the damage back up a bit, won't you?  At least higher than the mk-1 braton damage... so 150, or 200.  250 is about average for weak primary weapons, but I doubt they'd ever bring it up that high.

[R34LM]

Watch, they'll just end up releasing a Rakta or Vaykor Ignis...

 

EDIT: Not Vulkar Ignis....though a sniper flamethrower would be intense.

Edited January 14, 2015 by R34LM

[Punchedface]

I was expecting that DE was going to add tiers for the flamethrowers with the Ignis being lowest and new AoE thrower weapons (Amprex doesn't count) being better DPS wise.

 

Boy was I disappointed

 

 

 

 

Rakta or Wraith Ignis...

 

fixed

Edited January 13, 2015 by Punchedface

[Krotalon]

fixed

 

He probably means Vaykor. I'm not sure if we will ever see Wraith weapons again.

 

However, +1 for Ignis buff.

[MechaTails]

Can someone confirm if the OP is just being a drama queen? Im thinking of building Ignis again, but dont really want to sink 6 forma in it to make it decent.

[Wurdyburd]

I
what

 

The Ignis doesn't need a buff. It's perfectly capable of holding itself up to the high end of mid-content/low end of high content. The MK1-Braton doesn't even come close to it.

The Ignis primarily shines through it's elemental damage. With fire element, you can make a Gas gun, that deals major damage to Infested, or a Radiation gun, which does quite well against Grineer, or a Blast gun, that does decently against basically everything.

 

It hits multiple targets, it hits around corners and behind cover, and despite it's ammo inefficiency, it's not hard to keep stocked. Sure it's not a good idea for endless missions, but that shouldn't be the deciding factor for whether a weapon is 'good' or not.

 

Also, on thrower-type weapons: so far, including secondaries, we've got one fire, three electricity, one viral, one cold, one radiation, one [mostly] slash, [technically] two magnetic, one poison, and one [mostly] puncture. The only damage types not represented yet are impact, blast, corrosive, and gas, and there are plenty other elements that only have one beam/thrower weapon to represent it.

 

The Ignis isn't underpowered, nor are flamethrowers under-represented. 

[Tyranness]

The DPS of both is correct, Ignis also has bad status and crit chance.

 

However Wurdy is also correct, it has plenty of side-effects of what it is, my only problem with it is the fire feels like goddamn smoke, it leaves no trail, doesn't even use the same somewhat decnt fire effects of ember's moves or Arson Eximi. Needs a Visual improvement.

[egregiousRac]

Can someone confirm if the OP is just being a drama queen? Im thinking of building Ignis again, but dont really want to sink 6 forma in it to make it decent.

 

It is really, really bad past about level 25.

 

 

Also, on thrower-type weapons: so far, including secondaries, we've got one fire, three electricity, one viral, one cold, one radiation, one [mostly] slash, [technically] two magnetic, one poison, and one [mostly] puncture. The only damage types not represented yet are impact, blast, corrosive, and gas, and there are plenty other elements that only have one beam/thrower weapon to represent it.

 

We have two throwers, one primary and one secondary. They are both really terrible. They used to be good, but not anymore. Being able to hit twenty enemies at once is worthless if it takes ten seconds to kill any of them.

 

The rest are beam weapons which are totally different in use.

[Airnad]

Watch, they'll just end up releasing a Rakta or Vulkar Ignis...

 

nope, pls dont, ballistica is bad enough, let them roll a different primary for red veil, Ogris might be good :v 

[taiiat]

Ignis, is like Fluctus.

 

it's a Weapon that's balanced around the idea that you can theoretically hit 30, 50, even more Enemies all at the same time, and whittle them all down equally.

but when do you ever need to do that?!

 

 

i definitely recommend Sinister Reach on Ignis though, as you can hit like, entire rooms then. pair with Heavy Caliber and Firestorm for maximum AoE spraying i guess. Sinister Reach is a must IMO.

 

ultimately however, it's....... okay as long as you're always hitting dozens of Enemies at any given time.

it's capability to kill a small number of Enemies however, is fairly meh. single target capabilities are just too low IMO.

 

and it's Status leaves something to be desired. (WTB 40-50% innate Fire Status Chance + Status Chance (maybe 15%) for other things)

 

Ignis.  A flamethrower

it's technically a Gas Thrower.

Gas Throwers spew clouds of ignited fuel. like a Fuel Air Bomb minus the shockwave.

while Flame Throwers fire something more of a stream of liquid (such as napalm).

 

Weaponized Flamethrowers for combat, if used nowadays(and anytime since about 1915), are never Gas Throwers. between Range, wind, and effectiveness issues, combat uses prefer volatile liquids to compensate for those facets.

 

nor are flamethrowers under-represented. 

but we have zero Flamethrowers :(

since Ignis technically isn't one and nothing else falls into that category.

Nukor and Embolist are vaguely similar, but one is Acid based and one is Microwave based.

 

if you are calling any sort of 'Emitter' Weapon a Flame Thrower though.... but that doesn't make sense to me.

Edited January 13, 2015 by taiiat

[Holeypaladin]

The only ignis build that's really viable... is one built around ember's accelerant, since accelerant can boost the laughable damage up by 720%... at least the fire aspect of it.  Since you can only use two fire mods, you're still stuck with something that's not fire to fill up two or three more spots in an 8-mod build.

 

When it was first released, it was actually useful, and I kept putting formae in it to give it room clearing ability.  The damage at that time was I think 150 or so?

 

But with it being nerfed down to 100... as was stated already, it's absolutely horrible against anything past level 25, even with an 8-mod build.

 

Sure, it's an area attack cone.  But penta, ogris, etc. are also area affect weapons, and they're much much more powerful.

[Wurdyburd]

However Wurdy is also correct, it has plenty of side-effects of what it is, my only problem with it is the fire feels like goddamn smoke, it leaves no trail, doesn't even use the same somewhat decnt fire effects of ember's moves or Arson Eximi. Needs a Visual improvement.

We have two throwers, one primary and one secondary. They are both really terrible. They used to be good, but not anymore. Being able to hit twenty enemies at once is worthless if it takes ten seconds to kill any of them.

The rest are beam weapons which are totally different in use.

it's technically a Gas Thrower.

Gas Throwers spew clouds of ignited fuel. like a Fuel Air Bomb minus the shockwave.

while Flame Throwers fire something more of a stream of liquid (such as napalm).

Weaponized Flamethrowers for combat, if used nowadays(and anytime since about 1915), are never Gas Throwers. between Range, wind, and effectiveness issues, combat uses prefer volatile liquids to compensate for those facets.

but we have zero Flamethrowers :(

since Ignis technically isn't one and nothing else falls into that category.

Nukor and Embolist are vaguely similar, but one is Acid based and one is Microwave based.

if you are calling any sort of 'Emitter' Weapon a Flame Thrower though.... but that doesn't make sense to me.

Technically all true. It's a personal irk of mine to see videogames featuring flamethrowers as a kind of shotgun; high damage, but low range. Many real flamethrowers have an excellent range, due to the high-pressure fuel.

So yes, we have a weapon that uses fire in a cone shape, which is what most people call a flamethrower nowadays, even if it's incorrent.

 

That said, an actual flamethrower wouldn't necessarily be effective. High status chance to guarantee a flaming target, bullet-drop so that the jet can't reach as far accurately, and it would be all sorts of weird for the combo-elements. At least with the current gas model, it makes sense when we make blast, gas, and radiation damage types.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Wurdyburd

[NalkorRN]

I would honestly prefer if the Ignis performed more like an actual flamethrower, in that the heat alone would absolutely murder flesh and armor. There are modern napalm mixtures that burn at several thousand degrees and would just utterly ruin vehicles and anyone inside them, and they'd behave more like the Heavy Incinerator of Fallout: New Vegas (napalm being shot a good distance at a target and leaving a very nasty burning patch on the ground) rather than the useless short-range gas-fuel sprayers. Frankly, I'd prefer for it to be devastating against stuff that isn't protected by shields since it just burns through it's ammo and has a hideously small status and critical chance (can it even crit?). I mean for crying out loud, the surface of the sun is only 10,000 degrees Celsius and so it burns white hot, so why can't the Ignis and the other flamethrower have non-customizable flames that change in color as it gets hooter (puts out more damage after certain thresholds). Start out with the standard Red/Orange/Yellow, then move up to Blue, then Green, then Purple, then finally white. Granted, that's more of a cosmetic change than anything else.

 

Then again, I just love the idea of burning things with the Ignis. Which makes me wish Ember was more useful later on so I could pile on Ember with Ignis, and that melee weapon that only does fire damage, along with that secondary that does blast damage, burning things and blowing them up.

[Phoenix86]

Double its dmg, make it 20% status chance.

 

Done :)

Edited January 13, 2015 by Phoenix86

[Holeypaladin]

Yeah double damage would be nice, make it worth using again.

[Kruglov]

Now this, Holey, is the first thread of yours I agree with.

 

And I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

 

When I joined my current clan in Warframe (made up of friends fleeing from the sinking ships of tf2 and spiral knights) the first thing that caught my eye was the flamethrower.

I loved its design, how weird it looked, and the fact it was a flamethrower.

 

But as time has gone on, I've realized.... its a really bad gun.

 

Low damage.

Low status (why?).

Low crit.

Low everything.

 

It's like the Skana of lab weapons. Poopy all around.

What I'd personally love for it to have is a 15% base crit and 25% base status chance.

I'd be fine with the low damage if it could RELIABLY light things on fire / whatever procs I put on it, and had OK crits. Not great just OK.

That alone would make it worth it's salt I think.

 

Until then I will continue to use the Amprex.

[azmyth1]

A +50% damage buff would be sufficient.  Because it can hit so many enemies, it should not be top tier as far as DPS goes.  However, it uses a forma and is MR 4 Clantech, so it should be at least decent.  The Mitre is the only weapon that does less damage, I think.  The MK-1 Braton does more and that's just silly.

[Br34kf4s7]

I don't understand why DE nerfs everything that doesn't need a nerf, but when it comes to stuff that's actually RIDICULOUSLY overpowered (boltor prime, I'm looking at you) they could give less of a f*ck.

[00zau]

Needs more DEEPS and a forced fire proc (50% would be enough). I'd like to see it act like a proper liquid flamethrower, but odds are DE won't bother doing a major overhaul on an old gun like the Ignis.

[traybong111]

What does DE have against fire element anyways? Both Ember and Ignis need some kind of buff, and Red Veil, obssessed with their "cleansing fire," is probably the most unrewarding syndicate out of the bunch. Heat Dagger, Sword, and dual Heat Sword all of them were pretty meh even before Damage 2.0. Napalm also happens to be one of the most annoying Grineer units (and that's saying something considering the sheer fuster of cluck Grineer throws at us) and Fusion MoAs were the prime nuisance in Void defense before Nullifiers were introduced. Did someone pick Bulbasaur as his first starter and ever since held a grudge against anything fire in video games???

All my yes to Ignis buff, but like other posters have said I'm not holding my breath for it.

Edited January 13, 2015 by traybong111

[Paradoxbomb]

It could definitely use something to give it an edge, be it a buff to base damage, a general status chance buff, or even a forced fire proc so you can get some guaranteed stun time/DoT out of it (and make it feel more legitimate). Or any combination of the three.

[Shalderave]

I think the Amprex needs to be split in half and combined into the Ignis. Take away the Amprex's ludicrous status chance and put it in the Ignis. The Amprex can keep it's psychotic Crit chance and Crit damage, but should have a lower status chance. Instead, give its current status chance, or maybe even a higher default, to the Ignis and increase the Ignis' base damage a little bit. Since its DPS is apparently currently 100, maybe buff it to 175 or 200? Keep it somewhat low, such as in comparison to the Amprex. 

 

That way, both crowd control weapons have their ups and downs. The Amprex will have its insane fire rate, critical chance, and crit multiplier; and the Ignis, with just a little extra damage than it has now, will have an enormous status chance, maybe even bigger than the Amprex's default. The Amprex would be for straight up damage, and the Ignis would be for proc'ing and, with the right procs like Fire, stunning and DoT.

 

 

~ EDIT: I should clarify that I thought DPS in this case meant: "Damage done by a level 30 weapon without any mods against an enemy with which the weapon has no bonuses or reductions."

Edited January 13, 2015 by Shalderave

[egregiousRac]

~ EDIT: I should clarify that I thought DPS in this case meant: "Damage done by a level 30 weapon without any mods against an enemy with which the weapon has no bonuses or reductions."

 

Well weapon level does not affect base DPS, so that is what it is. The ignis deals 100 damage per second before modifiers. In reality what that means is that 1/10th of a second after you start firing it will deal 10 damage, then every 1/3rd of a second after that it will deal 33 damage.

 

For comparison the Ignis and Soma would be about the same if the Soma had no crits, except that the Soma would still have a smoother damage spread instead of only every 1/3rd of a second.

[Shalderave]

For comparison the Ignis and Soma would be about the same if the Soma had no crits, except that the Soma would still have a smoother damage spread instead of only every 1/3rd of a second.

I wasn't sure, I never delved deep into the game's mathematical formulas. But that makes sense, it still needs a damage boost. I was talking with a friend that it should do about half the damage the Amprex does, but with a ridiculous status chance. Things like that, since you'd imagine a flamethrower having a higher chance of proc'ing nasty things like fire, rather than a Tesla Coil (Amprex).

[[DE]Momaw]

Yeah. It needs some help.  My suggestion for the Ignis was that aiming the weapon should give you double the damage and double the status chance, but in a much narrower "column" of AOE instead of just everything on your screen.