Bows Vs Nullifiers, Needs A Tweek

[7grims]

Seems bows are excessively bad against nullifies.

I just had to spend 3-4 arrows on this tier 3 corrupted nullifier, meanwhile he was kind enough to just stand still and not kill me.

 

And its not like I have a weak bow, my dread is extra powerful, well moded, allot of formas, catalist, and all mods maxed out.

 

Seems those nullys bubbles consider damage dealt in comparison to the amount of clip size, so all those arrows seems a bit to steep, since those 3-4 arrows was only to take down a bubble, and then another 1 to kill the nully, not to mention the time it takes to shoot all those arrows.

Edited February 20, 2015 by 7grims

[Vaikiss]

my formad  marelok can say  the same i need entire magazine of 8 bullets to take down his shield

 

and then i need 1 extra bullet to take him down they are stronger than like level 80+ gunners 

 

shield should should have x amount of health  instead of hits or whatever it is now cuz with my boltor it goes down in like a second even tho boltor dps is much lower 

[Zoracraft]

The damage on the bubble is capped at 400, no matter the actual weapon damage :/

I would suggest spamming arrows, or a rapid fire secondary

[(PSN)theelix]

The algorithm for taking down nullifier shields is quite against weapons with slow firerates. 

 

So bows are excessively bad against nullifiers. 

Where are your secondaries? Or your melee? 

[Saint_of_Grey]

I remember reading somewhere about how nullifer bubbles calculate damage. If the damage of a shot is below 100, it's rounded up to 100. If its above 400, it's rounded down to 400. Multiple bullets at the same time are counted as the same shot. I'll have to dig up the post where I read this.

[Shuuro]

Dread> Takes a whole bunch of arrows to break bubble

 

Rakta Ballistica> 4 Trigger pulls and it breaks

 

...

 

 

What?

Edited February 20, 2015 by Shuuro

[ForteXVI]

Dread> Takes a whole bunch of arrows to break bubble

 

Rakta Ballistica> 4 Trigger pulls and it breaks

 

...

 

 

What?

Illuminati confirmed.

[Nesit1]

Oh. My Rakta Ballistica needs 2-3 bursts to take shield down. Ironic.

[nickelshark]

I remember reading somewhere about how nullifer bubbles calculate damage. If the damage of a shot is below 100, it's rounded up to 100. If its above 400, it's rounded down to 400. Multiple bullets at the same time are counted as the same shot. I'll have to dig up the post where I read this.

If this is true, which it makes a lot of sense, then anything that hits over 400 and has a slower fire rate is not very effective against the nullies. Meaning launchers, bows, some shotguns, and snipers along with a couple of secondaries. Sometimes I can't tell if DE really want's any real variety among the "endgame" or not, because nullies seem to promote full auto weapons and punish slower firing heavy hitting weapons.

[VoidWraith]

You'd think nullifiers only nullify Warframe powers, but no, they have to make them nullify projectiles too.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Here is literally everything wrong with Nullifiers, far beyond your simple but valid gripe with bows against them.

 

 

I have to start out by saying that Nullifiers are one of the most broken, stupid, badly designed, bulls*** enemies I have ever seen in a video game, even more so than the Pyro in Team Fortress 2. They negate your primary means of survivability, they one shot kill you from across the tileset, the formula used to shrink their bubbles when they take damage is completely broken, Their art design is uncreative and bland, they cause massive amounts of rage and hate within the community, and they generally make the game less fun to play. I would like to walk through all of the many, many reasons why Nullifiers are the most badly designed enemies ever.

 

#1: They negate abilities that keep you alive

Any Veteran warframe player knows that abilities such as Turbulence, Shatter Shield, Hysteria, etc. that increase your survivability are basically essential for high level content. Then come the Nullifiers. Any positive effect that is keeping you alive is instantly stripped from you as soon as you enter the bubble. This is basically a guaranteed death sentence. Needless to say, this is unreasonably cruel to any player who tries to do any sort of high level void mission, and since Nullifiers frequently spawn on top of you, the game basically kills you if RNGesus doesn't like you enough.

 

Nullifiers may be some conscious effort on DE's part to counter the power of survivability skills or "press 4 to win" ability spam, but creating a horrifically broken, badly designed enemy to do this is completely the wrong way to go about doing this. The feedback forums are flooded with brilliant suggestions as to how to solve these problems. Listen to them. A stupid solution to a difficult problem will only create even more stupid problems.

 

How to solve?

This is one of the more difficult problems to solve, as Nullifiers are supposed to nullify, and any possible fix would also prevent them from nullifying. However, I have been able to come up with a reasonable solution. There should be a short, 1 second delay between entering the bubble and having ability buffs nullified, during which you could exit the bubble or potentially kill the Nullifier. You would still not be able to cast any abilities while in a Nullifier bubble at any time, though. This change would make Nullifiers far less of an unforgiving RNG-hates-you death sentence, but since the delay is extremely short, players are forced to act fast, requiring a degree of skill.

 

#2: They one-shot kill you from ridiculous distances

This problem also has to do with enemy scaling, but the root of the problem is with the Nullifiers' weapon, the Lanka. At high levels, it is easily capable of one-shotting, and as a sniper rifle, they have an extremely long range. This alone would be acceptable, but when forced to deal with the nullifier bubble before being able to stop the Nullifier from shooting at you, "begrudging acceptability" turns into "complete bulls***." Since the bubble often requires a full clip to take down, even after you get through it (with the Nullifier shooting at you all the while) you may be forced to reload, leaving you vulnerable for an instant kill.

 

How to solve?

The solution to this problem is fairly simple: Nullifiers should only be able to shoot targets inside of their bubble, but this restriction would be removed once their bubble goes down. This means that you are not at risk from the instant kill while you're trying to take down the bubble, and that Nullifiers would be sort of "two stage" enemies, where once you take down the bubble, you then deal with the sniper underneath, creating an interesting dynamic in combat. The problem of being left defenseless after using a whole clip on taking down the bubble still exists, but if the third change is made as well, this will be significantly less of a problem.

 

#3: Damage done to their bubbles is not based on actual weapon damage

This issue was called to my attention by this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/373346-nullifiers-bubble-isnt-affected-by-damage-and-heres-proof/?hl=%2Bnullifier+%2Bbubble+%2Bnot+%2Baffected+%2Bby+%2Bdamage

I'll just let Althran take it away.

 

 

EDIT:

I did not know the actual formula for Nullifier shield shrinkage at the time I created this thread, but now I do, and yes, it is horrendously stupid and broken.

 

Basically, if any one hit to a Nullifier shield is below 100 damage, it will inflict 100 damage to the shield, and if any one hit is above 400 damage, it will inflict 400 damage to the shield. This means that the Dread, which deals several thousand damage per shot on average, will only deal 400 damage per shot to the Nullifier shield.

 

This is a new level of disgraceful, DE. When developing this formula, you had absolutely no foresight for how this would be a detriment to slow firing weapons. You screwed up, now it is time to take responsibility for your actions and fix your mistake.

 

How to fix?

This should be obvious. MAKE NULLIFIER BUBBLES ACTUALLY SHRINK BASED ON WEAPON DAMAGE!!!

 

These are just the basic issues. I have a few more small nitpicks, like how their model is just a slightly modified crewman with no creativity or artistic effort at all, or how every single member of the community f***ing hates Nullifiers, but these have no real effect on gameplay, so I'll leave them out, at least for now.

 

Put Nullifier discussion in the Community Hot Topics. See how much raw hatred is directed at them for yourself, DE. If you offer a poll for these changes, I would be willing to bet money that the community votes for any Nullifier nerf at all over keeping Nullifiers the way they are in an absolute landslide.

 

Everyone hates them. They are completely mechanically broken. They have multiple instakill bulls*** abilities. These suggested changes would fix all of that.

 

[AdunSaveMe]

It's pretty much mandatory to take a strong beam or burst/high rof weapon now just to deal with these.

My Vectis is absolutely useless against them compared to these other things.

 

Requiring a small pool of things to take out broken enemies is crap and ruins diversity.

[7grims]

I remember reading somewhere about how nullifer bubbles calculate damage. If the damage of a shot is below 100, it's rounded up to 100. If its above 400, it's rounded down to 400. Multiple bullets at the same time are counted as the same shot. I'll have to dig up the post where I read this.

 

your comment reminded that I do have multishot, so I possibly did shoot more then just 3-4 arrows.

[Turnoverman]

This is intended. Nullifiers are broken, as you're clearly able to see, but they're intended to be broken.

 

It's like... you know how people will sometimes buy jeans with holes already in them? It's kinda like that. They're intentionally flawed so that people who can't tell the difference between cheap tricks and difficulty will see that the nullifier killed them and go "ermgaherd, dis challenge is duh best!"

 

Trying to make sense of them or try to find a way in which they're fair to anything but the high-rate-of-fire meta won't work, since they're intended to support that meta and break everything else. That's just how it is.

 

EDIT: Since plugs for people's own threads are getting dropped, I might as well get in on it :3

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/372810-nullifiers-are-three-balanced-enemies-but-one-unbalanced-one/

Edited February 20, 2015 by Turnoverman

[Nighttide77]

 

Here is literally everything wrong with Nullifiers, far beyond your simple but valid gripe with bows against them.

 

 

Yeah...there are tons of things I would have to say to counter every argument 4G3NT makes, but I'll just say I mostly disagree to save time.

 

The same arguments against nullifiers can be made against enemies with knockdown, toxic ancients, disruptors, enemies that set you on fire, and anything in between.

 

The point is that if you know what sort of mission you're about to get into, you need to carefully choose your loadout and not think that any setup you choose is going to work.  There isn't a universal setup that's perfect for every situation.  Even in real life, you're not going to take an assault rifle to a sniping field.

 

I've seen complaints about Ancient Healers, Disruptors, those Corpus ones with a magnetic proc aura...even complaints about getting sniped and 'naded.  I can't say I have had any problems with nullifiers any more than any other special enemy.  If I know I'm gonna deal with them, I just pick the weapons that make sense.

[Hatzeputt]

Learn how the nullifier bubbles work. Adapt yourself do not ask the game to adapt to you.

[CapedBaldy]

Tweaks will have to be made to this broken mechanic. It's been argued to death already and nearly anything we add onto this topic is just beating a dead horse.

 

For now, we'll have to use work-arounds until they get tweaks, that is if they do get some.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

If I know I'm gonna deal with them, I just pick the weapons that make sense.

 

Learn how the nullifier bubbles work. Adapt yourself do not ask the game to adapt to you.

 

We've learned how Nullifier bubbles work, and the way that they work is stupid. They punish players not using high RoF weapons for no real reason. DE has repeatedly shown extreme amounts of thoughtlessness in enemy design, immediately going for what they think will work without considering any possible problems or repercussions.

 

You fix what you break, DE.

[Saint_of_Grey]

DE has repeatedly shown extreme amounts of thoughtlessness in enemy design, immediately going for what they think will work without considering any possible problems or repercussions.

 

Otherwise known as "we can't be arsed to have someone playtest our content".

 

Seriously, if they just paid someone to go though and tell them whats wrong before hundreds of man hours are put into it, this game would be a lot better.

 

No, players don't count as playtesters. By the time it reaches us, it's to late to make any substantial changes.

[CapnFusterCluck]

We've learned how Nullifier bubbles work, and the way that they work is stupid. They punish players not using high RoF weapons for no real reason. DE has repeatedly shown extreme amounts of thoughtlessness in enemy design, immediately going for what they think will work without considering any possible problems or repercussions.

 

You fix what you break, DE.

Wait, you seriously bring Dread, a slow firing secondary, and a weapon that doesn't have momentum nor knockdown ability?

Something is seriously wrong with your build.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Wait, you seriously bring Dread, a slow firing secondary, and a weapon that doesn't have momentum nor knockdown ability?

Something is seriously wrong with your build.

 

Except that Nullifiers are literally the only enemies that the Dread, Vaykor Marelok, etc. are not effective against. This statement implies that there is something wrong with me for using a very good weapon that just happens to have low RoF. The statement that I just made implies that there is something wrong with you.

Edited February 21, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Nighttide77]

The statement that I just made implies that there is something wrong with you.

 

Might want to chill...this sort of talk locks threads.

 

I'm sure none of us are really here to attack each other, but rather, discuss the obstacles we face in the game.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

If this is true, which it makes a lot of sense, then anything that hits over 400 and has a slower fire rate is not very effective against the nullies. Meaning launchers, bows, some shotguns, and snipers along with a couple of secondaries. Sometimes I can't tell if DE really want's any real variety among the "endgame" or not, because nullies seem to promote full auto weapons and punish slower firing heavy hitting weapons.

Sort-of does promotes variety.

In order to last long-game you need ammo.

High rate of fire weapons tend to not be ammo efficient so either they get lower damage by running Ammo mutation or DE gets you to craft Team Ammo restores.

Restores may not seem like a big deal to long-term players that have more than a solar-systems worth of resources...But for newer players or Low-level players that only focused on getting Community best Gear may not have spec for ammo efficiency.

Limiting the amount of "endless" a player can endure.

Nullifiers answer High-damage Per Shot weapons with slow fire rate as well as high-fire rate burst weapons. They answer ability spamming to win and also not equipping duravilty mods or knowing how to dodge. They also answer trying to face tank.....

-(Amuses me to see a Trinity/Invsibile Loki/Rhino/Hysteria Valkyr/etc... Run into a Nullifier shield full of enemies and fall down, then wonder why no-one rushed over to pick-them up...)

I still use Opticor for Nullifiers...but I don't shoot their shields.

-Mainly because Article Eximus Nullifiers protecting Article Eximus Bombards/Heavy/Gunners/Crewman are just nothing more than a crap shoot.

-So I try to maneuver quickly to Nullifier and shoot him and then cast AoE CC to buy some recovery time.

(Example....Kestrel slide-attack into bubble and shoot or Ragdoll Nullifier and then cast silence to stun non-nullifier units.)

(Prolonged Paralysis Valkyr, I do the same quick cast after firing.....sometimes I can time Paralysis to where the cast goes off inside the bubble and 'sometimes' it stuns and damages non-nullifiers....But Attack drones from MoAs are my Valkyr's biggest enemy when enemy levels get high and I'm zerg-rushing Nullifiers; gulpingndown Lanka shots as I quick-spam Health restores while sliding-in....)

[manub]

nullifiers stopping arrows & high power bullets annoyed me too, but I would have them stay slightly as they are

why? simple reason: this is their purpose, making game harder for us & making us us other than our usual tactics

 

let's say the change was made, that full damage would apply to their globe, then what?

your dread/marelok/vectis/(insert high powered weapon of choice here) would work vs them as if the bubble didn't exist

so they would be totally useless, game would resume to camp & shoot just as before they came

 

keep the nullifier's bubble as it is

 

I was pissed too when they came, but in hindsight I like these ennemies that force me to think & use other tactics

I agree on their sniper rifle issue though, being one-shot from other side of map by an ennemy I didn't see/saw but didn't have time to rly try anything against because of bubble is annoying

[Evanescent]

I sneak in behind them and snap their necks or hack their heads off.