Does Increasing Enemy Levels Make It Endgame ? (Devstream 47)

[onemoonlight]

1. I did watch the stream. Every person HAD to stand on the panel, or it turned off, and reset. There were 8 panels. 1 per player (...)

 

 

56:50 ~~ 

"8 players are not mandatory (...)"

 

So what if there are 8 panels? Maybe if you go with 6 or 7 people the game detects that and you only need to step on 6 or 7 out of 8?

Edited February 21, 2015 by onemoonlight

[Cidolfus]

Did you know that there's more to warframe than high rate of fire weapons?

 

Going on this statement alone, you didn't get at all what I was stating, and my post was a simple, one sentence long statement. However I understand people need to be sat down and spoken to in a simpler way, so I'll explain myself.

 

 

Because if everyone has to use Somaboltors along with thier secondary equivilent because of one enemy, it just shows how broken it is. Also if you're going to try to melee a nullifer when his bubble is filled with his buddies, goodluck. This kind of reasoning is exactly why nullifyer still remain broken

 

Go on, exactly reason why Slow Rate of fire weapons should be punished in an already DPS-Centered Meta.

 

You're extremely close-minded if you think the only weapons you can use against nullifiers are somas or boltors. And you can very, very easily use melee against them as well. Nullifiers have extremely low hp - a simple aerial slam from any reasonably modded melee weapon can kill them, thus bursting their bubble and once again making all the enemies near them obsolete.

 

You try to use the notion that high powered, low RoF weapons are incredibly weak against them. Well, weapons with magnetic or electric based damage are incredibly weak and near useless against Infested, thus you're forced to either heavily mod them or use another weapon. Should DE remove the Infested? Or perhapse remove elemental strengths and weaknesses altogether? That's what you're wanting.

 

You're not complaining about a "broken enemy", since the enemy is doing exactly what it was designed to do. You're complaining about the enemy itself and the challenge it forces you to endure, yet turn your head away from all the other "limitations" that are in placed to force players to play in a variety of ways. 

 

Also, some of the absolute strongest weapons in the game are single shot/semi automatic. You can throw a pebble and it'll land on a thread or a picture where someone's one-shotting Void Vor or any other boss without invulnerability mechanics while using a sniper rifle or a bow.

 

So yeah. argument is invalid, unless you want to put your closeminded umbrella over ALL the game's limitations.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Cidolfus

[AlphaHorseman]

 

You're extremely close-minded if you think the only weapons you can use against nullifiers are somas or boltors. And you can very, very easily use melee against them as well. Nullifiers have extremely low hp - a simple aerial slam from any reasonably modded melee weapon can kill them, thus bursting their bubble and once again making all the enemies near them obsolete.

 

You try to use the notion that high powered, low RoF weapons are incredibly weak against them. Well, weapons with magnetic or electric based damage are incredibly weak and near useless against Infested, thus you're forced to either heavily mod them or use another weapon. Should DE remove the Infested? Or perhapse remove elemental strengths and weaknesses altogether? That's what you're wanting.

 

You're not complaining about a "broken enemy", since the enemy is doing exactly what it was designed to do. You're complaining about the enemy itself and the challenge it forces you to endure, yet turn your head away from all the other "limitations" that are in placed to force players to play in a variety of ways. 

 

Also, some of the absolute strongest weapons in the game are single shot/semi automatic. You can throw a pebble and it'll land on a thread or a picture where someone's one-shotting Void Vor or any other boss without invulnerability mechanics while using a sniper rifle or a bow.

 

So yeah. argument is invalid, unless you want to put your closeminded umbrella over ALL the game's limitations.

I believe his statement is that the formula for the Nullifiers Bubbles is something that is actually removing player choice when it comes to weaponry. They limit the damage done to the bubble, and thus high damage low RoF weaponry isn't as effective. It's a way of forcing players to use weapons they may not like.

 

Also, in higher level missions, jumping into a Nullifier bubble isn't the smartest thing to do when his buddies turn and start shooting at you as you try to remove the bubble. Even for new players or progressing players, they do not have the gear as a higher leveled player does (or it is not as highly leveled/reformed), and thus they have to deal with a threat that may also be a bit too hard for them to deal with using the gear they have at hand. I'm not saying the concept of Nullifiers is bad, but it is a huge deterrence to low RoF weapons (bows, thrown melee, low RoF secondaries, snipers, shotguns), and thus, players choice when dealing with threats like this.

 

The thing about elemental damage types is that they can be applied to all weapons, and thus afford a player the preference of weaponry of their choice, rather than limit a player in choice of weaponry just because of a single unit type. Nullifiers do that, and thus they can be considered broken for it because they limit player choice in weaponry, when no other mobs in the game do that.

 

I believe that it is fine that they block powers, that's their function, but it is the fact that they also block our guns to an insane degree that bothers me.

[GreyEnneract]

Well they said the new Grineer enemy would spawn there.

[Buzkyl]

Going on this statement alone, you didn't get at all what I was stating, and my post was a simple, one sentence long statement. However I understand people need to be sat down and spoken to in a simpler way, so I'll explain myself.

 

 

 

You're extremely close-minded if you think the only weapons you can use against nullifiers are somas or boltors. And you can very, very easily use melee against them as well. Nullifiers have extremely low hp - a simple aerial slam from any reasonably modded melee weapon can kill them, thus bursting their bubble and once again making all the enemies near them obsolete.

 

You try to use the notion that high powered, low RoF weapons are incredibly weak against them. Well, weapons with magnetic or electric based damage are incredibly weak and near useless against Infested, thus you're forced to either heavily mod them or use another weapon. Should DE remove the Infested? Or perhapse remove elemental strengths and weaknesses altogether? That's what you're wanting.

 

You're not complaining about a "broken enemy", since the enemy is doing exactly what it was designed to do. You're complaining about the enemy itself and the challenge it forces you to endure, yet turn your head away from all the other "limitations" that are in placed to force players to play in a variety of ways. 

 

Also, some of the absolute strongest weapons in the game are single shot/semi automatic. You can throw a pebble and it'll land on a thread or a picture where someone's one-shotting Void Vor or any other boss without invulnerability mechanics while using a sniper rifle or a bow.

 

So yeah. argument is invalid, unless you want to put your closeminded umbrella over ALL the game's limitations.

 

 

You will only melee a nullifier if it's alone. In that scenario they are extremely easy to handle as they have very little health. However if they are in a group diving directly into a group of enemies is near suicide unless you have a melee oriented frame. Because as you ground slam the nullifer and killing him will result in all of the nearby enemies inside that cramped bubble turning and killing you.

 

The difference between the Nullifer's shield and your example is this- Elements in this game are rock-paper-scissors when it comes to enemies. Some enemies are weak to it, some enemies are resistant to it. That what balance it out. Also the choice of using elemental damage mods is up to the user. If an enemy is resistant to magnetic, you don't bring magnetic you bring it's weakness.

 

However not all weapon can be high rate of fire. Weapons like bows and sniper rifles, which are designed to be one-hit-one-kill weapons are punished as they cannot put the sustained DPS to pop the shield as quickly as their automatic/ semi-automatic counterparts. And the difference between this and using the elemental damage comparison you gave is that the weapons cannot change this property.  But if you're going to say "Just bring a weapon that can pop it's shield easier"  you're doing exactly what i said this enemy is doing, which is limiting weapon choice. Unless you want to argue that nullifers are "resistant" to slow RoF enemies

 

I can bring mag vs infested but survive just as well best i brought appropriate weaponry to face infested.Even though all her abilities do magnetic damage which infested resist. This doesn't apply for nullifers, because their shield makes tenno powers ineffective and i just explained what it does to slow RoF weapons.

 

No, the enemy was designed stop tenno powers from working against shielded enemies. And it's doing it's job quite well.However. Explain to me why it also blocks bullets as well as Tenno Powers? Even if i put punch-through on my weapon a shield that suppose to block powers also blocks this as well. Because i'm certain we have a Eximus unit for this, Frost Eximi. Frost eximi also does not have their shield up constantly, it only puts up shield when it has taken damage or it sees Tenno, meaning it can be killed from afar or through stealth. Nullifiers do not have this property. Infact for added salt, nullifiers can also become Frost eximi.

 

I have no problem with an enemy stopping my powers, i DO have a problem when makes me feel inadequate for bring certain types of weaponry against it.

Edited February 22, 2015 by cozzi21

[RoboDoge]

You will only melee a nullifier if it's alone. In that scenario they are extremely easy to handle as they have very little health. However if they are in a group diving directly into a group of enemies is near suicide unless you have a melee oriented frame. Because as you ground slam the nullifer and killing him will result in all of the nearby enemies inside that cramped bubble turning and killing you.

 

The difference between the Nullifer's shield and your example is this- Elements in this game are rock-paper-scissors when it comes to enemies. Some enemies are weak to it, some enemies are resistant to it. That what balance it out. Also the choice of using elemental damage mods is up to the user. If an enemy is resistant to magnetic, you don't bring magnetic you bring it's weakness.

 

However not all weapon can be high rate of fire. Weapons like bows and sniper rifles, which are designed to be one-hit-one-kill weapons are punished as they cannot put the sustained DPS to pop the shield as quickly as their automatic/ semi-automatic counterparts. And the difference between this and using the elemental damage comparison you gave is that the weapons cannot change this property.  But if you're going to say "Just bring a weapon that can pop it's shield easier"  you're doing exactly what i said this enemy is doing, which is limiting weapon choice. Unless you want to argue that nullifers are "resistant" to slow RoF enemies

 

I can bring mag vs infested but survive just as well best i brought appropriate weaponry to face infested.Even though all her abilities do magnetic damage which infested resist. This doesn't apply for nullifers, because their shield makes tenno powers ineffective and i just explained what it does to slow RoF weapons.

 

No, the enemy was designed stop tenno powers from working against shielded enemies. And it's doing it's job quite well.However. Explain to me why it also blocks bullets as well as Tenno Powers? Even if i put punch-through on my weapon a shield that suppose to block powers also blocks this as well. Because i'm certain we have a Eximus unit for this, Frost Eximi. Frost eximi also does not have their shield up constantly, it only puts up shield when it has taken damage or it sees Tenno, meaning it can be killed from afar or through stealth. Nullifiers do not have this property. Infact for added salt, nullifiers can also become Frost eximi.

 

I have no problem with an enemy stopping my powers, i DO have a problem when makes me feel inadequate for bring certain types of weaponry against it.

Reason for this is that whoever created Nullifiers has to admit to himself that his design was bad.

 

 

Every other developer would have replaced their designer if half of the game needs to be changed after major releases. Sometimes i think that people at DE are forgetting old content when creating new one.

[Cidolfus]

Explain to me why it also blocks bullets as well as Tenno Powers?

 

Because it does? No, seriously, why are you asking such a question? That's like asking why you can hear sound in space in this game. And from what I've read in your post, you're continuously and completely missing the point. I'll break it down once again, for the last time.

 

Players steamroll this game. Completely. DE made us too powerful. So, what do they try to do? They try to rebalance. To "nerf". And what happens? The community rages.

 

So, what's the next step? They add new obstacles, more "hindrances" that slow and impede the player's current godmode-like abilities. The community sees this as yet another way to "ruin their fun". They rage.

 

So, DE makes new areas with higher difficulty and stronger enemies. Players either rage about DE taking the "easy" way out or they simply find a way to circumvent it. Loki. Rhino. Banshee. Hell, almost every warframe save Ember, Necros, and a few others (which are all supposedly "bottom tier" according to this playerbase) have a way of circumventing the difficulty and challenge completely...if they have enough energy to do so.

 

Thus, queue in the nullifiers. They're the only enemy in this game as of right now that gives its teammates a true fighting chance against us without simply inflating enemy levels. The closest to them are the infested ospreys and moas who spew poison everywhere...and guess which enemies are all the rage on these forums? Do you really think it's a coincidence?

 

You spout that nullifiers stop you from playing how you want to play, but ignore the fact that every enemy has elemental affinities that push you towards modding or equipping a weapon that can damage them. You state that DE is making us focus only on high RoF weapons, and yet ignore the point given that many of the best weapons in the game have LOW RoF. You argue that nullifiers force you to bring a high RoF weapon, yet ignore the point given that you can bring more than one weapon.

 

You're just angry because you're being limited, even though quite frankly? A balanced arsenal has a weapon with at least moderate RoF in it to balance out your chosen high damage, low RoF weapon. I myself tend to use either a sniper or shotgun, and back it up with pistols. Other times I bring a bow and kunai when I want to be silent. Or, I stop being a little pussy and bring Ogris/Penta, and rush in Kogake blazing as my Ember right into a nullifier bubble.

 

Yeah, DE suuuure is limiting us, alright. No - you're limiting yourself. And with that, I'm out of here. i rarely post on these forums for a number of reasons. One is the extremely noticeable fact that people complain about everything, legitimate or not. They don't want the game balanced nor do they want a challenge. They want easy. They want their warframe to be Superman and the enemies to be little insects that can barely fight back. Sadly DE gave them exactly that, and while I applaud them for trying to rebalance and make things tougher/more challenging, I fear it's too late.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Cidolfus

[SoulEchelon]

Because it does? No, seriously, why are you asking such a question? That's like asking why you can hear sound in space in this game. And from what I've read in your post, you're continuously and completely missing the point. I'll break it down once again, for the last time.

 

Players steamroll this game. Completely. DE made us too powerful. So, what do they try to do? They try to rebalance. To "nerf". And what happens? The community rages.

 

So, what's the next step? They add new obstacles, more "hindrances" that slow and impede the player's current godmode-like abilities. The community sees this as yet another way to "ruin their fun". They rage.

 

So, DE makes new areas with higher difficulty and stronger enemies. Players either rage about DE taking the "easy" way out or they simply find a way to circumvent it. Loki. Rhino. Banshee. Hell, almost every warframe save Ember, Necros, and a few others (which are all supposedly "bottom tier" according to this playerbase) have a way of circumventing the difficulty and challenge completely...if they have enough energy to do so.

 

Thus, queue in the nullifiers. They're the only enemy in this game as of right now that gives its teammates a true fighting chance against us without simply inflating enemy levels. The closest to them are the infested ospreys and moas who spew poison everywhere...and guess which enemies are all the rage on these forums? Do you really think it's a coincidence?

 

You spout that nullifiers stop you from playing how you want to play, but ignore the fact that every enemy has elemental affinities that push you towards modding or equipping a weapon that can damage them. You state that DE is making us focus only on high RoF weapons, and yet ignore the point given that many of the best weapons in the game have LOW RoF. You argue that nullifiers force you to bring a high RoF weapon, yet ignore the point given that you can bring more than one weapon.

 

You're just angry because you're being limited, even though quite frankly? A balanced arsenal has a weapon with at least moderate RoF in it to balance out your chosen high damage, low RoF weapon. I myself tend to use either a sniper or shotgun, and back it up with pistols. Other times I bring a bow and kunai when I want to be silent. Or, I stop being a little pussy and bring Ogris/Penta, and rush in Kogake blazing as my Ember right into a nullifier bubble.

 

Yeah, DE suuuure is limiting us, alright. No - you're limiting yourself. And with that, I'm out of here. i rarely post on these forums for a number of reasons. One is the extremely noticeable fact that people complain about everything, legitimate or not. They don't want the game balanced nor do they want a challenge. They want easy. They want their warframe to be Superman and the enemies to be little insects that can barely fight back. Sadly DE gave them exactly that, and while I applaud them for trying to rebalance and make things tougher/more challenging, I fear it's too late.

 

I'm in...pretty much total agreement. I don't post much anymore either, just a lurker nowadays but I had to go ahead and +1 this. I've been here since closed beta, have seen all the changes, all the crying about said changes, all the rage about new enemies or obstacles and etc being implemented that players either can't get past or refuse to. Nullifiers, while they (and those new infested btw) have been rebalanced and might still need a few new tweaks, are the ire of this community because, funnily enough, they force us to actually become ninjas. Gotta dodge more, run more, defend, strike fast, retreat just as fast, and so on. Nah - the community really, really doesn't want us to truly become ninjas. They want walking tanks or invisibility that makes us impervious to the whole damned game. *sigh*

 

It's...depressing, really. DE made an awesome game but I have to concur that their current difficulty changes and new, stronger enemies may have came too late. This community is lethargic. The majority will outright refuse anything new that can prove a challenge. It's happened over and over and over again the past 2 years.....Meh, I miss closed beta.

[Sygnano]

A balanced arsenal has a weapon with at least moderate RoF in it to balance out your chosen high damage, low RoF weapon

 

 

[ROXXXY]

Without dedicated servers or something the host has to have good internet or everyone is. going to LAGGGGG.

[Xrkr]

 

That's a beautiful syandana you have, there. Why's it all folded up? Unfurl that S#&$, take some pictures and let it glow, man. Let it glow. :D

[R34LM]

Even Steve said Rebecca was Loki Masterracing through the mission to make it easier. What is to stop players to falling into a norm of going full Lokis or full Limbos with Rift Walk? As far as I know, the needs for raids will be too niche, demaning only certain high level gear and playstyles to survive; that is not what this game needs.

[AlphaHorseman]

Even Steve said Rebecca was Loki Masterracing through the mission to make it easier. What is to stop players to falling into a norm of going full Lokis or full Limbos with Rift Walk? As far as I know, the needs for raids will be too niche, demaning only certain high level gear and playstyles to survive; that is not what this game needs.

I would have hoped that the introductions of raids were when all warframes were competent in their themes/aspects. Meaning that each power within their kits were useful, had some form of CC/Utility if they were purely damage to ensure the entirety of a WarFrames ability kit is viable throughout content, rather than just one or two powers. 

 

With the introductions of raids now...and with it being just enemies becoming bullet sponges and walloping hammers, with only one additional unit with different mechanics (Grineer Manic), it's all lop sided and weird. I would've hoped that raids introduced to us enemies with varying and complex mechanics that were not just bullet sponges, thus making it feel like an actual raid through enemy units presenting unique challenges, rather than being a mutated version of T5 keys.

 

Now only certain frames whose powers have scale ability are useful, and although most frames have powers that do have some form of scale ability, it is often in a few, or even one power. Thus, we're just going to see a few preferred frames that can actually take on the challenges because their kits are pretty well fleshed out, and the rest of the frames being left behind.

 

I was hoping that raids would introduce not just new mechanics in the puzzles that we had to solve, but also new mechanics in the enemies that we would have to fight, and thus give us more interesting encounters and challenges, rather than just content that we've all fought against before, only now with more armor and HP and high damage.

[-InV-igo95862]

My hopes for Raids is that it will need player to play separated roles in a mission.

 

For example:

2 players will defend a point

2 players will need to use sniper rifles to cover them

2 players will rush to some location

2 player will be on Archwing

 

Right now it seems like a regular deathball Press 4 to win mission just with 8 players.

[low1991]

Answer to OP title.

If the raid has low starting level enemies, wouldn't that allows players with weaker weapons or un-coordinated team work to success in completing the objective/mission?

 

So to DE, higher starting level enemies = a boundaries between coordinated players & PUB/ random players.

 

Example: if starting level is 10, do i need much help in wiping the enemies if i'm equipped with Ignis?

Edited February 22, 2015 by low1991

[Hypernaut1]

You won't be forced to choose a certain frame if you play the raid for fun. No one is along you from taking Volt to a raid, you just need to be skilled enough to survive.

[TeaBegging]

You won't be forced to choose a certain frame if you play the raid for fun. No one is along you from taking Volt to a raid, you just need to be skilled enough to survive.

True but I don't think people would like it to constantly carry and revive a volt because he is to squishy. And I don't think being skilled has to do with surviving agianst level 80+ because if you get aggroed by those enemies you are pretty much death.

[TeaBegging]

Answer to OP title.

If the raid has low starting level enemies, wouldn't that allows players with weaker weapons or un-coordinated team work to success in completing the objective/mission?

 

So to DE, higher starting level enemies = a boundaries between coordinated players & PUB/ random players.

 

Example: if starting level is 10, do i need much help in wiping the enemies if i'm equipped with Ignis?

No you don't, but having it start at level 80 would that force you to use specific gear to be atleast usefull? The reason that I posted that title is to prove that just increasing enemies levels isn't making it lategame.

[Feallike]

Uhmmm... Again people endgame needs high level enemies saying raids could have level 10 enemies is completely stupid. (can't say that any nicer)

 

 

Also to the people who are saying why not just use Full Loki/Ash/Limbo team? Didn't you see raids had a Hijack mission.... So those frames have low Shield which already hurts they are all targeting the Cargo, and did you notice the Cargo had 4k hp.....

 

 

Level 80 enemies can take that down in seconds.

 

 

DE has shown already that this will actually need teamwork. Also its a WORK IN POGRESS. The Team is making this harder as we speak. So please don't act like its going to suck before its even out.

[-InV-igo95862]

Uhmmm... Again people endgame needs high level enemies saying raids could have level 10 enemies is completely stupid. (can't say that any nicer)

 

 

Also to the people who are saying why not just use Full Loki/Ash/Limbo team? Didn't you see raids had a Hijack mission.... So those frames have low Shield which already hurts they are all targeting the Cargo, and did you notice the Cargo had 4k hp.....

 

 

Level 80 enemies can take that down in seconds.

 

 

DE has shown already that this will actually need teamwork. Also its a WORK IN POGRESS. The Team is making this harder as we speak. So please don't act like its going to suck before its even out.

 

One Radial Disarm and enemies can't hurt hijack target. One Team Shield Restorer (Cephalon Suda master race) and all your team has full shields.

[TeaBegging]

Uhmmm... Again people endgame needs high level enemies saying raids could have level 10 enemies is completely stupid. (can't say that any nicer)

 

 

Also to the people who are saying why not just use Full Loki/Ash/Limbo team? Didn't you see raids had a Hijack mission.... So those frames have low Shield which already hurts they are all targeting the Cargo, and did you notice the Cargo had 4k hp.....

 

 

Level 80 enemies can take that down in seconds.

 

 

DE has shown already that this will actually need teamwork. Also its a WORK IN POGRESS. The Team is making this harder as we speak. So please don't act like its going to suck before its even out.

There is pretty much any combination off tactics to work here. Having higher enemies means nothing if you know how to work with frames and their abilities. Using For example Invisible augment for Ash making 8 team mates invisible. Using Radial disarm making level 80 enemies useless. Using frost to defend that cargo. Along with Mag and problem solved. Having 8 frames and knowing how the raids will be you can just use a specific group off frames and redo the mission over and over. Making it just another mission like the others just with a higher starting cap off enemies. As I mentioned yes level cap does matter but it doesn't make the raids more challenging.

Edit: Also I didn't said it suck. I just gave my opinion and so did others. We are just worried as I stated that I knew its work in progress.

Edited February 22, 2015 by TeaBegging

[ComfyOlivia]

The reason the enemies are so high level was said in the stream, and the reason isn't to make the raid "endgame". 

 

You will have 8, highly geared players. Anything less in the enemies and it would be a breeze.

 

We have to remember that DE doesn't understand what balance is. I'm sure that there will be groups that die outright, and groups that can finish the raids with not fully ranked gear. That's just how Warframe is. Honestly, one frame can make the mission a million times easier, and DE can't really balance for that without severely changing something.

 

High level enemies is not what we, or DE, had in mind with "Endgame". Puzzles, Planning, Endurance, Teamwork, and Effort are what's making it. You won't be able to walk in with a pubbie group and win.

 

OP, DE has already seen what happens when they try to fix a big problem with only one tiny solution (LoS Changes are one example).

Edited February 22, 2015 by CoRRh

[OniDax]

Even Steve said Rebecca was Loki Masterracing through the mission to make it easier. What is to stop players to falling into a norm of going full Lokis or full Limbos with Rift Walk? As far as I know, the needs for raids will be too niche, demaning only certain high level gear and playstyles to survive; that is not what this game needs.

 

The problem is that high-level enemies require frames with large health/shields/armor or invisibility cloaks to survive. That's the problem here. It's not there are frames which simply cannot survive those high levels. There is a lack of balance when it comes to Warframe stats. That's why Loki will be the go-to frame. So, for me, I won't participate in Raids until DE buffs warframe stats, particularly armor and health. Every level 30 warframe should be able to survive high-level enemies without being one-shotted. I don't care about weapons being underpowered in comparison with these high-level enemies, but the frames themselves, especially the ones who don't have an invisibility-cloak easy-mode or a slow-down-every-enemy-molecular-prime power, need to have high enough shields, health, and armor to be able to survive just as well as the other frames.

[Dogoframe]

Edit: But also theres a problem, raids are with high level enemies but once u kill them they are dead and in Warframe raids they just keep coming , that they need to change

 

I was thinking exactly that. The game I probably played "endgame" the most was DDO. You had to clear sometimes 40+ baddies in a single epic room, but when gone, they were gone. The equivalent to a Bombard or Heavy Gunner there would be a mini-boss (of which you had to fight sometimes 10 or more per "mission", not raid). But Crowd Control wasnt something you took for mass-murdering, it was a must have. Most characters could take a couple hits from common mobs, but if the mini-boss in the room goes for you, you are dead if you are not that particular character that can take  beatings and little else.

 

I would personally like something similar for "endgame" Warframe. For instance, instead of the respawning mobs in the Puzzle of Doom Room, make it 8 lvl 80 Eximus with 8 minions. The challenge presented BEFORE the puzzle itself is killing each Eximus + squad to clear that puzzle piece, but once gone, they were gone. Ideally, the Eximus would take two frames with high defense/evasion to keep distracted, while the other 6 frames would have to deal all damage possible to it (each Eximus taking a minimum of 3 or 4 min of constant fire from absolutely top damage weapons to kill, doable in 10 or 12 minutes of constant fire if using non-appropriate weapons). Vay Hek would be sending all but the last 2 or 3 squads one at a time, doing his complaining. When there are only 2 or 3 squads left, they are sent together, and that would be another challenge, with roles assigned still mattering, but all that much more difficult, practically unbeatable if you are not carrying proper weaponry and assigned roles to frames correctly or effectively.

[TeaBegging]

The problem to start with is that enemies starting higher. Making certain squishy frames useless. Other thing is that many weapons are useless compared the damage output they have making the boltor prime once agian the get go to these raids. Another thing is that instead off relying on certain gear and weapons I'd rather see enemies that really push you trough the limits. That somehow can block your tenno powers like the stalker. Is mobile like vor. Can knock you off like the Jackal. Has multiple phases like lephantis. Can debuff you like the hyena pack etc.