Still Really &!$$ed About Synoid Nerf

[Davoodoo]

And yes, we know people will scream because it cannot out-DPS Boltor Prime anymore.

 

Oh, wait... it can but they can't fire it for 30 minutes nonstop anymore. No, nothing OP about that at all. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Actually they still can and even then it outdpses boltor and syndicate weapons.

 

Rank 3 ammo mutation actually lets me use it without running out of ammo for way over an hour of survival.

 

Actually it's very different because

1. the ticks are for much smaller damage numbers now (i know there are more ticks per second)

Amount of ticks and dmg remained same, rof doesnt affect number of ticks.

Dmg is calculated per second or 0.1s after last hit.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Heidrek]

Yeah the way it is now...

-magnetic proc. wait what proc?

-runs out of ammo fast, so continuous fire is a no go... It's a minute man, and minute man can't take on an army of mobs

-magnetic dmg. Yeah right that, is bombard is happy to take you on. The only thing this is going to do is take down nullifiers,

 

Sooo If I see this wouldn't the normal assumption is to say it's bad?
Of course, it's bad the weapon has too many negative points to cover up the fact it has now.
DE did a horrid job balancing it and the way they balanced it was just boring, it's the same thing they did for the synapse when it was first released. Well back to Vaykor marelok, and Rakta Ballistica. 

[(PSN)fizzer94]

Yeah the way it is now...

-magnetic proc. wait what proc?

-runs out of ammo fast, so continuous fire is a no go... It's a minute man, and minute man can't take on an army of mobs

-magnetic dmg. Yeah right that, is bombard is happy to take you on. The only thing this is going to do is take down nullifiers,

 

Sooo If I see this wouldn't the normal assumption is to say it's bad?

Of course, it's bad the weapon has too many negative points to cover up the fact it has now.

DE did a horrid job balancing it and the way they balanced it was just boring, it's the same thing they did for the synapse when it was first released. Well back to Vaykor marelok, and Rakta Ballistica.

Synapse is still one of the best primary weapons in the game.

I'd place it somewhere above the regular Soma, but below Soma Prime.

Its nothing to scoff at.

[Maleketh]

This weapon is still good. While I was a little upset when they changed how it performed, when I tried it out, it still worked pretty well. Just had to throw an ammo mutation on it. It is still a good weapon and isn't nearly as bad as people are saying it is.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Dunno man, I'm using it with Primed Ammo Mutation now and it works very well, I rarely run out of ammo; it's still the strongest secondary available!

 

A gun needing a primed mod (that's only available for a window of ~2 days every couple months and takes 528 cores + ~1 million creds to max) just to be usable is not really a good thing.

[Nira]

The synoid gammacor was my favorite weapon not because it was so insanely powerful but because it was a continuous fire beam weapon that had amazing ammo efficiency.

 

 

Call me cynical but I suspect you're in the minority here. For many I suspect it was simply the flavour of the month.

 

I'm glad it got toned down but it reinforces yet again the point OP made about ammo consumption on continuous weapons. Embolist, Spectra (yes, it does still exist), Nukor, Flux Rifle, Amprex, Synapse to a lesser degree, and now the SG...

 

There's energy weapons such as the Cestras and Supra too, but I guess that's a whole other thing.

[Heidrek]

 

 

 

Call me cynical but I suspect you're in the minority here. For many I suspect it was simply the flavour of the month.

 

I'm glad it got toned down but it reinforces yet again the point OP made about ammo consumption on continuous weapons. Embolist, Spectra (yes, it does still exist), Nukor, Flux Rifle, Amprex, Synapse to a lesser degree, and now the SG...

 

There's energy weapons such as the Cestras and Supra too, but I guess that's a whole other thing.

 

It's a DE thing.

Synapse is still one of the best primary weapons in the game.

I'd place it somewhere above the regular Soma, but below Soma Prime.

Its nothing to scoff at.

Flux Rifle

[(PSN)MrNishi]

A gun needing a primed mod (that's only available for a window of ~2 days every couple months and takes 528 cores + ~1 million creds to max) just to be usable is not really a good thing.

To be usuable for long survivals or endless missions...

Complaining about needing to rank a rare Rank 10 mod for sustained endless play..

So I am assuming by this comment you do not run Hornet Strike at Rank 10 nor any other fusion-vaccum mod when running endless content.

Normally long endless was associated with a Mod-gate

It was sort-of what separated new players from experienced players.

-Only because there was a mod-gate for weapon/Warframe effectiveness in endless content

Kind-of like to some players Vectis is the best Sniper in the game because "Primed Chamber" (Are thereess Primed Pistol Ammo Mutations than Primed Chambers??)

Or how event mods make some weapons endless ready or status monsters, even though they were time-limited items???

I personally feel they went too far with the fire-rate.

-Said it before but for Lore-sake, to me, it would make more sense to leave base damage at 50 to match normal Gammacor but have fire-rate at 8.4.

(Would have appeared as a Gammacor with altered fire-rate, enhanced crit and status. While the fire-rate would have still been manageable and closer to base Gammacor+Lethal Torrent)

DE very easily could have reverted Synoid Gammacor to how it was when it was first released when it had less DPS than even the old Rakta Ballistica.

They overbuffed the weapon and then used a slightly smaller hammer to knock it down a shelf. (Should have only been a peg or two..)

[Deviantis]

Oh look, is that the Hikou over there? Why are these things more powerful than a machine pistol? Let's rebalance them. Chop the damage by 80% and then increase fire rate by x5 to keep the DPS the same. Let's throw them in handfuls, too, so the animations are less weird. Then it behaves like a shotgun, and they are hand thrown anyway, so we should add damage falloff.

Don't like it? Get over it.

Holy hell I want this so bad...

[DoomFruit]

Dunno man, I'm using it with Primed Ammo Mutation now and it works very well, I rarely run out of ammo; it's still the strongest secondary available!

If a gun *requires* one specific mod (and a niche mod, too) to be usable, it's a badly made gun. See: shotguns in general (primed point blank). Frankly, I suspect that the only reason they applied the massive ammo economy nerf is to make primed pistol ammo mutation useful. I couldn't see any use for it at all when it came out. Edited April 10, 2015 by DoomFruit

[(PSN)fizzer94]

If a gun *requires* one specific mod (and a niche mod, too) to be usable, it's a badly made gun. See: shotguns in general (primed point blank). Frankly, I suspect that the only reason they applied the massive ammo economy nerf is to make primed pistol ammo mutation useful. I couldn't see any use for it at all when it came out.

Ammo Mutation is not niche. Ammo mutation mods help all weapons in any given category.

That's like calling Serration a niche mod...

An example of a niche mod would be something like Hellfire or Sinister Reach. Mods that only affect a small selection of weapons in a category.

And people need to stop acting like the Synoid is now useless because it needs an ammo mutation to make it far into endlesses.

Many weapons need ammo mutation to do that, and they aren't often as good as the Synoid is otherwise. The Grakata and Amprex for examples

.

People are just mad that its not stupidly OP anymore, but just slightly OP instead.

Honestly? Its some of the most petty whining I've ever seen on any vidoegame forums ever. The entitlement is sickening, tbh.

Its still one of the very best sidearms in the game by a wide margin...

[inappropriatename5818]

Bet DE removed it so my precious nullifier bubble popper is useless D;.

 

I'm not saying I liked the way they nerfed it I'd also rather see damage get choped in half even than the ammo nerf, but Synoid despite it's nerfs is still a top tier secondary and by far the best "machine pistol" in the game.    

 

I don't know if it categorizes as a machine pistol, but I put it in the same bin as something like Dex Furis, because it essentially does the same thing, you hold down a button and it gives continuous damage output while draining ammo. In that regard Synoid is still best in it's category by a mile.

[[DE]Momaw]

Ammo Mutation is not niche. Ammo mutation mods help all weapons in any given category.

An example of a niche mod would be something like Hellfire or Sinister Reach. Mods that only affect a small selection of weapons in a category.

And people need to stop acting like the Synoid is now useless because it needs an ammo mutation to make it far into endlesses.

 

1.) The topic wasn't ammo mutation, it was primed ammo mutation. Which is harder to get and vastly more expensive to rank up. What other secondary weapons need primed ammo mutate to be usable and might be considered "endgame"?  The only thing that eats ammo as fast are the dual machine pistols, and while they are fun to use, they are not "endgame" and cannot justify the cost.

 

2.) I think you mean Wildfire...?

 

3.) I don't think anybody is arguing that it's useless,  since it does still function as a device for killing people. However, I've run the numbers, and the Synoid Gammacor is now quite literally only a few percent stronger on sustained DPS than the Gammacor. It's kind of insulting to the people that bought this weapon, built the forma, ranked it up multiple times, all with a clear understanding of what they were getting, and then it was all suddenly snatched away from us without recompense or apology. The Marelok and Brakk are stupidly powerful and they haven't been cut off at the knees, so why should we have expected that for the Synoid? It feels very unfair to have targeted this weapon and no others, and beyond that, it feels like a massive oversteering in balance. Why didn't DE try setting the damage to 50 and the rate of fire to 6.5? (compare gammacor at 50 dam/ rate of fire 5). That would have been about 20% reduction in hypothetical DPS compared to what it was, and 3 times worse on ammo economy... But it seems fair and reasonable because it wouldn't have pushed any of the weapon's stats into horrifying and unwieldy extremes. At the very least it would have been a fair and reasonable pausing point to see what it did to the meta.

[Kuestenjung]

The synoid gammacor came out and it was great, 

 

Wrong, the Gammacor and the Synoid came out and they were both only mastery fodder till they got their buff.

[Marthrym]

Nerfing ammo efficiency to the ground was plain moronic. It's DE's new response to players' whining that Gammacor is/was/whatever stronger than any other syndicate weapon (Rakta whiners everywhere I swear...) and more generally any other weapon.

 

So what could they do? They could tone damage down a tad. Oh wait no, that would make way too much sense... So they just kicked ammo efficiency in the nuts. All praise DE. Or not. Not much to praise lately unfortunately. Or rather, the amount of "bad and stupid" far outweighs the "good and smart".

[Davoodoo]

However, I've run the numbers, and the Synoid Gammacor is now quite literally only a few percent stronger on sustained DPS than the Gammacor.

1 thing is being uninformed or making mistakes, but youre outright lying.

 

http://goo.gl/JiJ4wr 32,3k sustained 42.7k burst.

http://goo.gl/kl2rl6 19,7k sustained 29,6k burst.

 

and its not only warframe builder, any dps calc out there will confirm that difference between synoid and regular is huge.

You havent run the numbers or you did and lie about them.

 

 

1.) The topic wasn't ammo mutation, it was primed ammo mutation. Which is harder to get and vastly more expensive to rank up. What other secondary weapons need primed ammo mutate to be usable and might be considered "endgame"?  The only thing that eats ammo as fast are the dual machine pistols, and while they are fun to use, they are not "endgame" and cannot justify the cost.

rank 3 ammo mutator is all that i need, maxed primed one is hugely excessive.

 

machine gun talk only points out to broken ammo system btw, further proving that some weapons are simply too ammo efficient.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Davoodoo

[[DE]Momaw]

1 thing is being uninformed or making mistakes, but youre outright lying.

 

http://goo.gl/JiJ4wr 32,3k sustained 42.7k burst.

http://goo.gl/kl2rl6 19,7k sustained 29,6k burst

 

Cross referencing my hand crafted math with Builder's results, turns out I did make a small mistake, in that that I was using the Synoid's old magazine size instead of its new one, which affected the modifier to turn burst deeps into sustained deeps. So I was wrong. It's amazing what you can figure out if you take the time to examine the problem instead of accusing people of lying when their views don't match up with yours.

 

Though while Synoid does have higher sustained damage output than the Gammacor, the amount of ammo it spends to get there is disproportionate, to the extent that the Synoid has extremely limited combat endurance. Which is why the subject of Ammo Mutation, and even the notion of needing the Primed version,  has come up several times in this thread.  Mod which are conspicuously absent from the build you linked to....

[Evanescent]

Buff up the ammo consumption, but still leave it ammo hungry. We aren't saying restore it back, just make it more usable.

[Davoodoo]

Though while Synoid does have higher sustained damage output than the Gammacor, the amount of ammo it spends to get there is disproportionate, to the extent that the Synoid has extremely limited combat endurance. Which is why the subject of Ammo Mutation, and even the notion of needing the Primed version,  has come up several times in this thread.  Mod which are conspicuously absent from the build you linked to....

I mentioned that primed ammo mutation is way excessive and even without any ammo mutation i can sustain build i posted for 40 mins of survival, if i plan to go for over 1,5h ill need rank 3 ammo mutator to sustain it without switching weapons.

[xenoffense]

20 and 20. So no.

oh S#&$ you're right, I don't know why I've thought for so long that primary had bigger ammo pickups. nevermind

[S7ORM]

Oh look, is that the Hikou over there? Why are these things more powerful than a machine pistol? Let's rebalance them. Chop the damage by 80% and then increase fire rate by x5 to keep the DPS the same.  Let's throw them in handfuls, too, so the animations are less weird. Then it behaves like a shotgun, and they are hand thrown anyway, so we should add damage falloff.

 

Don't like it? Get over it.

Well, I would actually like to see them thrown in handfuls. It would make them unique from Kunai and Despair.

[Bacl]

Try the normal Gammacor then.

 

I am not Insulting you directly Wii Conquered but that argument is the most idiotic ive seen in a while.

 

Getting the regular Gammacor from the market and few argons crystals, easy.

 

Synoid Gammacor, need to farm 100K reputation, sacrifice Loki P helmet, Glaive blade, Golden potato, Forma and i dont recall exaclty how many hundred thousands credits. So all that for a crappier version that the one you buy from '' the dollar store''.

 

Really?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I am not Insulting you directly Wii Conquered but that argument is the most idiotic ive seen in a while.

 

Getting the regular Gammacor from the market and few argons crystals, easy.

 

Synoid Gammacor, need to farm 100K reputation, sacrifice Loki P helmet, Glaive blade, Golden potato, Forma and i dont recall exaclty how many hundred thousands credits. So all that for a crappier version that the one you buy from '' the dollar store''.

 

Really?

 

Synoid Gammacor is a high powered, damage first weapon.

 

Gammacor is a high efficiency weapon. I, as someone who usually uses my secondary only for priority targets and tight situations, would rather use the powerful Synoid. You, as someone who wants more efficiency, might prefer the Gammacor.

 

It's definitely odd that the Synoid doesn't have the same traits as its base version (I think the Gammacor should be changed to reflect the Synoid more), but it is by no means "crappier". I don't think a damage 2.0 weapon had half its current burst DPS until U12.4.

Edited April 16, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Bacl]

Synoid Gammacor is a high powered, damage first weapon.

 

Gammacor is a high efficiency weapon. I, as someone who usually uses my secondary only for priority targets and tight situations, would rather use the powerful Synoid. You, as someone who wants more efficiency, might prefer the Gammacor.

 

It's definitely odd that the Synoid doesn't have the same traits as its base version (I think the Gammacor should be changed to reflect the Synoid more), but it is by no means "crappier". I don't think a damage 2.0 weapon had half its current burst DPS until U12.4.

 

SG is a beam weapon that requires to keep the beam ona the target to do its damage, it is not supposed to be a 25 meters long light saber. I think we can agree on that.

 

Now how they nerfed it, they kept it as a light saber that murders everything but make it run out of juice in few seconds. The way they nerfed it killed the very concept of the weapon. Keep the beam on a target to kill it, at least 1 or 2 seconds to cut a hole in it not the split second Orokin laser that clears the room in Tower defense.

 

The good way to nerf the gammacor, give it inate punch through to counter the minimum 25meters range, give it its ammo consuption back, nerf the overall damage output by maybe 20 to 30%. The punch through is there so you can hit line up ennemies, since you need to keep the beam on them for few seconds at least make it worthwhile for multiple targets.

 

That way it is still usuable, less overkill and will fit its concept of constant beam damage it was intended to.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Bacl

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

SG is a beam weapon that requires to keep the beam ona the target to do its damage, it is not supposed to be a 25 meters long light saber. I think we can agree on that.

 

Now how they nerfed it, they kept it as a light saber that murders everything but make it run out of juice in few seconds. The way they nerfed it killed the very concept of the weapon. Keep the beam on a target to kill it, at least 1 or 2 seconds to cut a hole in it not the split second Orokin laser that clears the room in Tower defense.

 

The good way to nerf the gammacor, give it inate punch through to counter the minimum 25meters range, give it its ammo consuption back, nerf the overall damage output by maybe 20 to 30%. The punch through is there so you can hit line up ennemies, since you need to keep the beam on them for few seconds at least make it worthwhile for crownd and lined up ennemies.

 

That way it is still usuable, less overkill and will fit its concept of constant beam damage it was intended to.

 

I don't know about that. It's described as a "defensive weapon" (or something like that) and it fits that purpose well not. It's not going to carry you alone due to ammo inefficiency, but if you got knocked down by a heavy and only had a fraction of a second to save yourself, there's no better weapon to have.