You Know, If De Were Quick To Balance Op Weapon They Wouldn't Receive This Much Backlash.

[HyokaChan]

Another habit they need to get around, is delaying updates. They need to have a backlog of content readily available so that nothing gets delayed. That, or do slightly larger updates every 2 weeks.

This would also allow to weapon balance throughout the 2 weeks, and get testing done.

They actually do.

 

There needs to be more weapon balancing going out right now, though.

[TriggerHappyWhiteGuy]

 Considering the enemy scaling requires weapons to be at least a certain level of strength before even being considered as a weapon worthy of owning it's not the easiest thing in the world to handle.

 

 Weapons can't just be unique. They have to be unique AND stomp just as well as the most powerful weapons in the most important parts of the game's difficult content.

 

 DE could release a super clever gun with a really fun and interesting gimmick and if it ain't any help in peoples farm they sure as hell aren't going to use it instead of a gun they do know they can trust to stomp through those enemies. Same goes for the raid.

 

 So new weapons being OP from time to time? Yeah. Some of them are gonna have to be. Look what they compete with. The most powerful of the 'balanced' weapons are so strong they're melting pretty high level enemies. You'd HAVE to make a weapon OP for it to stand out among those entries.

 

 

 You want to be mad about balance? Be mad that the game itself lets weapons become useless so fast. DE's gotta smooth the enemy stat curve and then do a big pass on our arsenal to make the curve a more gradual climb in power. Maybe then the personality of some of the guns will be able to make a different in whether or not people use it. The unwritten rule of "If it ain't got dat BIG DAMAGE it's fodder" that is made necessary by the steep climb in enemy defensive stats as the levels get higher means it's just impossible for those low and mid tier guns to ever be allowed to matter.

 

 If DE balance the arsenal out so that weapons were all comparably closer to each other it'd almost ruin the game for us. We actually RELY on how incredibly power creep some of the content is. We need it as cushion so we can push further in the content DE has made for us. It's ridiculous.

Only reason for that this happens in the first place is because of infinite level scaling. If mobs have a level cap then weapons can be unique and balanced.

[ranks21]

synoid isn't even balanced they lowered the damage too much while increasing its rate of ammo consumption towards level 1-20 enemies like a lot of other weapons in the game. this makes the average level 30+ enemies becomes bullet sponges.

 

 the whole arsenal needs an overhaul and start to balance weapons around level 60+ enemies we have missions and maps where the enemies are 41+ and raids starts at 80 so 60 is a fair number without have to empty 3-4 clips on just one eximus or heavy gunner etc when 1+ should be sufficient.

Edited April 3, 2015 by ranks21

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

OP: words of wisdom. +1

 

people get spoiled so fast... i still use synoid g. as my main secondary btw.

[Circle_of_Psi]

-snip-

 

I still can;t get over how smexy your image is, I keep finding myself doing the pose myself eveytime I see you.

 

 

should take an image of myself doing it...

[HardcoreSalmon]

I feel like there needs to be a specific group of people dedicated to working on the balance of the game much like the pvp team. New content is always being worked on and the balance to enemies, frames and weapons are an afterthought.

 

How long have we been waiting for shotguns to be buffed?

[Tulzscha]

General Discussion isn't the place for feedback threads, please read and understand:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/318374-please-read-before-posting-threads-what-is-and-isnt-general-discussion/

 

Moved to the proper section.

[Dornez]

I don't think this topic would exist if DE had slightly balanced the weapon rather than bashing it in the face with a mallet

[zoboso]

Wait, I thought that because warframe used percentile mods that the power variance is limited and controlled by a weapon's drawbacks, which are harder to remove. I did not get the Synoid Gammacor, so I do not have any strong feelings toward it, but with people still talking about its nerf, it was probably left too long. That said I feel that the most unbalanced things in the game are the dysfunctional energy gating system and the mods that straight increase damage numbers. I cannot wait to see what the pvp team comes up with for the elemental mods, actually just let me use pvp mods and statistics for pve and I will not care about how unbalanced everyone is in pve.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

 Considering the enemy scaling requires weapons to be at least a certain level of strength before even being considered as a weapon worthy of owning it's not the easiest thing in the world to handle.

 

 Weapons can't just be unique. They have to be unique AND stomp just as well as the most powerful weapons in the most important parts of the game's difficult content.

 

 DE could release a super clever gun with a really fun and interesting gimmick and if it ain't any help in peoples farm they sure as hell aren't going to use it instead of a gun they do know they can trust to stomp through those enemies. Same goes for the raid.

 

 So new weapons being OP from time to time? Yeah. Some of them are gonna have to be. Look what they compete with. The most powerful of the 'balanced' weapons are so strong they're melting pretty high level enemies. You'd HAVE to make a weapon OP for it to stand out among those entries.

 

 

 You want to be mad about balance? Be mad that the game itself lets weapons become useless so fast. DE's gotta smooth the enemy stat curve and then do a big pass on our arsenal to make the curve a more gradual climb in power. Maybe then the personality of some of the guns will be able to make a different in whether or not people use it. The unwritten rule of "If it ain't got dat BIG DAMAGE it's fodder" that is made necessary by the steep climb in enemy defensive stats as the levels get higher means it's just impossible for those low and mid tier guns to ever be allowed to matter.

 

 If DE balance the arsenal out so that weapons were all comparably closer to each other it'd almost ruin the game for us. We actually RELY on how incredibly power creep some of the content is. We need it as cushion so we can push further in the content DE has made for us. It's ridiculous.

 

I get your point and I agree with it. However, I don't think the solution to broken content is to ask for more to fix it. If DE fixes the weapons, the enemies will come with it. They have to, or everyone would abandon the game out of frustration.

 

My point is that, while scaling is an explanation of broken balance (probably the explanation), it's dangerous to say scaling must be fixed first, or neither should. If weapons are fixed, scaling will definitely follow.

[3thereal]

Enemies need to work together and be balanced. Grineer Maniac is now INVULNERABLE and can kill people with 1 move, Nullifiers are immune to all damage from a range and all abilites. Other enemies are pretty much easy to kill unless they are level 100+ and then are completely un-killable due to High Armor and 1 shotting frames without massive AOE skills, Nova's M Prime, Nyx's chaos, Loki's radial disarm, etc. First make enemies balanced and scale properly THEN rebalance the weapons as a whole (i thought that was damage 2.0 was about; FAIL). 

 

 

DE can't balance /thread.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Only reason for that this happens in the first place is because of infinite level scaling. If mobs have a level cap then weapons can be unique and balanced.

Well see, here's the problem:

 

DE isn't really trying to build the game around infinite scaling.

 

People play the game and rate weaponry based on how far they can go in the infinite scaling however.  If a gun can't take them to at least the point they currently, regularly make it to with more simplicity than what they have been using, it's mastery fodder.  If it carries them to the next reward, it's the new go-to weapon.

 

See, that's the problem:  CC works too darn well.  If CC started failing on higher levels opponents and they just wrecked Tenno face, players would be more worried about what they could do up to the level 50-60 point.  By default, endless modes are intended to eventually overwhelm a player.  Right now, mechanics are in place that allow a player to essentially go forever because they'll never get shot at to begin with.  So the only concern at that point is how fast a weapon can kill high level dudes.

 

Fact is... it wasn't intended for us to make it to level 100+ enemies in survival or endless defense.  Hell, 40-50 should be pushing it between their damage output and durability, but, y'know... a certain frame strips them of most of their damage output permanently...

[8gbMoreRAM]

The Kohm was unique.

Now it's another hitscan with

spool-up.

[Twilight053]

You know what they could do to not receive this much backlash?

 

Balance weapons properly. And listen to our feedback on this part.

Because right now, balance in this game is a joke.

 

Weapons aren't balanced. Many frames aren't balanced. Enemies aren't balanced.

Most "balancing" attempts rely on simply nerfing something. It's a very cheap way and it's irritating to see that the weapon you liked a lot and put a lot of time into was nerfed or changed a lot (for example Kohm).

 

Another thing is, many of those changes are completely unneeded.

Remember Braton Prime buff? Why did it get its ammo pool reduced to 375 rounds? For balancing? Meanwhile Boltor Prime has 540 rounds and Soma Prime has 800 rounds and they're both much, much better weapons. But hey, "balance"...

Did anyone say that it needed this change? No? Well, who cares anyway...

 

See, if DE would listen to our feedback more and actually take it into consideration, I think it would be a better situation for everyone.

Better for us. Better for them because playerbase would be happier with the changes they make if we knew we have impact on them.

 

We're "beta testers". We've put hundreds of hours into this game. We know how stuff works in this game, and when we propose changes, we do it for a good reason.

If only someone actually bothered to listen to us...

Yeah, and that.

[RafaelFuchs]

The Kohm was unique.

Now it's another hitscan with

spool-up.

this is another thing that bothers me about their "balancing" attempts...they took the gimmick away from a weapon once it actually became fairly good just making it another dps monster clone with horrible ammo efficiency. it was fun deciding to shove it into the ground to slice groups at close range or turn it into a fancy confetti cannon of death while still being a very deadly weapon at the cost of being an ammo eater. 

 

my thoughts on the topic is that the weapons are separated into 2 categories. why? because the ways enemies scale. from level 1-10 they're weak. from 10-20 they're weak. from 20-30 they're about a mild challenge. 30-40 they're hard. 40-50 the heavies are shredding the squishy frames. 50+ are able to oneshot people with ease. that's a bit wacky when you take into account how fast enemies scale in endless missions.

[Vaskadar]

DE really, really, really needs to do bi-weekly or monthly balance passes to make weapons more interesting. A small design team cordoned off from the rest of the game's aspects to focus on tweaking and diversifying the game's arsenal as it's produced.

 

There are so many cool weapons in such sorry states because they just keep on churning out 'content' without going back and revisiting older 'content'

 

It's been nearly 2 years since the Supra was released.

 

It hasn't been touched since it was released.

 

WHY? It feels like I'm banging my head against a wall. I'll go and spend my hard-earned forma and cash on stuff that gets revisited. It's such a damn shame that most things go untouched for so damn long.

 

Panthera

 

Buzlok

 

Miter

 

Paracyst... the list goes on.

 

IGNIS?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Vaskadar

[Fifield]

+1, DE really need to nerf Boltor Prime and asap.  It doesn't matter whether they do it right as long as they don't massively overdo it.  They can always finetune later.
Cutting damage 10% to 50 ought to do it.

Do it today, DE!

Soma Prime I don't have but that one needs a nerf too.

Also, I dare say recruiting a group of players for balancing would work well.
 

[SomeCrackHead]

Although the nerf to the Synoid was a balanced one, how long did it took to truly balance it? Six months? It was all the way from Update 15 to Update 16, all the way from November to March.

 

That's one bad habit that they really should get around, they shouldn't leave the problem to float for days, weeks and even months; if they know it's broken, don't ignore it.

please move this away from feedback section

[zoboso]

please move this away from feedback section

 

This is MetaFeedback, it belongs in a feedback section, although that section might not be general feedback.

 

I think that DE should release the Design Documents on stuff that has been created and released so we could see what is, and what could be to provide accurate feedback, as we current cannot because we cannot articulate what is wrong.

[FrameUnity]

This is a good thread that DE should look at. Seeing this kind of thread makes me wish that DE would hold player to dev session that would allow chosen player(veterans that know the game inside out) and discuss about balancing issue with Warframe.

 

Devs random picking questions won't really cut it as they most likely miss really hard hitting questions that have higher priorities

[Kasarian]

Devs random picking questions won't really cut it as they most likely miss really hard hitting questions that have higher priorities

 

If you're talking about Devstreams I see those as a sham where they goof around and answer few easy questions while avoiding those people would really want answered.

 

About weapons, they could start with slight nerf to Soma, its prime variant and Boltor P AND Buff the Synoid Gammacor, why? Cause making it another ammo inefficient weapon was the worst thing they could have done. Ammo pool, fire rate, reload time, range and damage. So many things that could have been chosen to cripple it from godlike tier to good weapon and they decided to go with ammo efficiency...

And I'm not even using the damn thing.......

 

Also locking Prime weapons/Frames behind Mastery (lets say 4) would make a great start...

[Vaskadar]

Still pushing this thread back to the surface.

 

Why does it take so damn long?

[Spindle99]

Although the nerf to the Synoid was a balanced one, how long did it took to truly balance it? Six months? It was all the way from Update 15 to Update 16, all the way from November to March.

 

That's one bad habit that they really should get around, they shouldn't leave the problem to float for days, weeks and even months; if they know it's broken, don't ignore it.

 

I think that was by design, they wanted people to do syndicate to get the item.

 

They made it too powerful on purpose with the idea to nerf it later, they did leave it too long though.

 

I base that on then adding potatoes to a few new contents then removing it within a week.

[ShardsSuperior]

It's been nearly 2 years since the Supra was released.

 

It hasn't been touched since it was released.

It got a hard nerf during Damage 2.0

Pre-damage 2.0,

https://youtu.be/jmpRTurNBE0

[Goosmo]

To be blunt, i'm suprised DE can't do something so simple as buffing or nerfing items, that very very very obviously needs it. The obviousness is so god damn bloody big, that i wan't to slap DE or facepalm myself to oblivion.