So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

[TaqeGrey]

Avatar + Inception = Warframe

2nd dream means dream within a dream

How we control different frames? Transfer our consciousness into them.

Maybe "we" tenno are in a cryopod on the Moon slepping and controling frame from distance?

 

Also we get this wierd shaking screen while loading mission that says something about interrupted connection? hm?

[PoopManZ]

What separates human-esque intelligence from borderline cognition is two things. Is strict, repetitive behaviorist learning required to teach and maintain a behavior in the species? Is the learning limited to a level of complexity? You could teach lower cognitive species such as dogs how to drive a car, but how you do that is strictly based on the rules behaviorists have researched concerning learning (and what you define driving a car is). That video shows this, only under a single specific condition was the dog able to realize the learned behavior. Sapience allows learned behaviors to be critically picked apart, expanded and applied to the general world. You will not be able to tease that behavior out of the dog spontaneously or have it evolve like you would see in a human.

 

As well, there's limits to how complex you can teach a behavior to animals. You stick the dog to a static track which severely cuts down the complexity of the action. Once you do that, its simply a matter of sensorimotor learning for the animal with reward reinforcement. You will not be able to make a dog learn complex functions such as mathematics or sure as hell not accomplishing overarching mental maps of maintaining and utilizing a Fomorian-class warship. As well, you will not be able to have that dog try to figure out how to drive around in any town or city, or anywhere outside the track. It's no longer a single repetitive track, more cognition such as turns, judging other motorists to prevent accidents, mapping out your route and finding your destination is now added. Beyond what the dog is capable of. 

 

Species with sapience are capable of breaking away considerably from behaviorist laws, because their minds are capable of emotion, logic, reasoning and internal thought. Things that research can not simply get down to a T. They move beyond the evolutionary instinct of reinforcing positive events such as getting food or avoidance of negative events such as punishment. The Grineer have very obviously shown this capacity (as well, they are human derived of course), the ancestral Grineer were able to align under one force, maintain themselves and even established order over others, without the presence of their masters, and essentially replacing them. 

 

The person who keeps coming back to basic animal tricks and marginalizing actions that so far in our world only one species has been capable of needs to review behaviorism and their research. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_behaviorism#Psychology_and_Behaviorism

Edited October 9, 2015 by PoopManZ

[motorfirebox]

Dude, having no control over the result is randomness. When you throw some dice that gives you a random result. This is how you are saying the Grineer may have been created. The orokin created a being but had no control over the result.

 

Well, two things. First, that's not what "random" means. If you have basic central air, you can't heat or cool your livingroom without also heating/cooling your kitchen. It's not random, it's a built-in limitation on the core design.

 

Second, we already know that the Orokin don't have as much control over the genetic limitations of the Grineer as you're suggesting. Right there in the Lancer imprint, we see Grineer designed for manual labor overcome their genetic limitations—limitations that the Orokin present at the time expected would make them an ineffective fighting force—and defeat an unknown but presumably large Infested force. Right there, in that imprint, we see that the Orokin don't have strong control over how intelligent their Grineer could become.

 

 

 

I dont know why you continue to ask proof when its extremely clear to everyone that lore discussion is mostly theories.

 

You're arguing from the position that the achievements of modern Grineer are irrelevant to the capabilities of Orokin Grineer, based on your theory that modern Grineer are smarter. You have no evidence for your theory, so the ramifications of that theory are insupportable.

 

 

Yes, we have been over this. These examples are basic example with UNMODIFIED creatures made for a specific task.

What i have shown is how much a normal animal can do, now imagine an animal made specifically to work.

Yes, and what I've said several times now is that if you modify a creature to such an extensive degree that it can use complex tools on its own initiative to further its own goals, you're no longer working with an animal. You're working with a sapient creature. Which leads to...

 

This is the point! To drive a car you do not need to be a mechanic you just need to know how to operate the machine.

Telling some one to drill a hole doesnt require the worker to know how the machine that makes the holes work.

Telling some one to then screw panels in does not require for the worker to know how the panels work on the structure.

 

That's a completely useless manual laborer. You'd be better off with a robot. Moreover, there's no evidence whatsoever that the Orokin Grineer were such simpletons that they needed to be directed to perform each and every task. To the contrary, we actually have hard proof that they weren't that dumb. A creature that is only smart enough to perform each task as its directed, with specific instructions, is by definition not smart enough to pick up a power saw and use it as a weapon to protect their 'masters' against a threat—much less smart enough to then turn around and betray those 'masters' to ensure their own survival.

 

An animal that can talk, but can't do anything else that might require sapience, is probably just an animal. An animal that can drive, but can't do anything else that might require sapience, is probably just an animal. An animal that can talk, and drive, and use tools, and formulate abstract plans, and use language to coerce other people, and adapt complex tools to completely unfamiliar situations—that simply isn't an animal anymore.

Edited October 10, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Dairaion]

But she is the mother of chromas. i could never betray her.

[Tostov]

We don't know the specifics of Valkyr's experimentation.

There are a lot of specifics we don't know. Using this as a counter argument is also therefore void. That being said, that's a reasonable point, but either way, valkyr clearly has an augmented bits and some restraints attached as well, and the premium skin doesn't really disprove that the augmentation wasn't at least there orignally. Same argument implant wise can be made about the Grineer. Do you consider the Grineer "Human"?

Why should I care about some ghost "dying", they transcend the corporeal world.

Same reason you should care about any rational thinking being dying. Same argument can be said for a living human, why should I care about them dying; they've transcended the corporeal world.

I find that about as compelling as a light bulb dying.

Why should I care about some nebulous blob of plasma in general? What is there to relate to there? Just a bland mush with no distinct form, let alone mannerism. And its not even doing the actual fighting, just puppeting a golem? Even less captivating.

That's uhh, a weird way at looking at human conciseness. So do you consider all people in the world bland and mushing with no distinct form, puppeting meat golems as they go about their daily lives? That's Rhetorical by the way, I assume you don't view people like that and actually view them as well, people.

So I'll posit a question: If we suppose a close relative or such is subjected to a near death experience. The only way to save their life is to download their mind into another body, and they take the treatment. Do you care about them in their new body, or are they just "bland mush" puppeting it?

And why should I sympathize with a being that apparently has so little regard or ethics for living bodies that it uses them as little more than meat taxi's?

You must hate horse riders, huh? Also remember the vast majority of tenno have very little qualms about wholesale murder. Warframe (as in the game) takes place in a very grim world. I mean, everyone in the real world of today is pretty much using a meat taxi, at this very moment, if you view it like that.

Its honestly not endearing in the least, its just treading Ed Gein territory.

Did not know who Ed Gein was before this.

Why should I accept something as stupidly meticulous as that method Warframe/Tenno function anyway? Why is the Rhino codex of all things being used to support this convoluted theory? The Rhino codex had one Rhino free and rampaging and then a room full of Zariman subjects, Tenno. Its quite the complete opposite of the one Tenno many Warframes concept.

All this is just based on interpretation of information. Rhino P codex has the Proto-Rhino become calmed when coming into close proximity to the Zarman kids. Since the conciseness is an immaterial thing, there's no evidence for or against one of the kids doing a spooky possession of the Proto-Rhino. 

Why should I accept this doubly awful theory when things like Lotus pointing out that Alad uses the bodies of discarded TENNO in the Zanuka project? Meaning the bodies aren't irrelevant husk. 

 

Firstly, you don't have to, that's whats great about this. We don't have to accept each other viewpoints, and I don't really expect you to anyway. I just feel that you're misunderstanding how I view it, so I'm trying to help clarify

The quote you're thinking of is: "Alad V's newest prototype is a monstrosity forged from the bodies of our fallen Tenno, we cannot allow Zanuka to go into full production. Destroy Alad V and his horrid 'pet'."

 

That's the one you're thinking of yeah? Firstly, as I said, I consider the Tenno to be more of mind or spirit than body, so at an inital glance, the body would be useless without the tenno, right? But in terms of practicality, Warframes are actually highly advanced Orokin technology.  In essence, its still incredibly useful from the split body-soul point of view because it is filled to the brim with advanced tech that Alad V wants to (and does) use.

The mission quotes do point in the other direction too though:

"Be careful Tenno,  Zanuka has all the power of a Warframe with a full complement of mods. It's as if you are fighting one of your own today."

See how it is "Warframe" not "Tenno"? I view that aspect as "Even with the body, Alad V is missing something to make Zanuka equivalent to a tenno". But interpretation of the implication behind the fact is just that, interpretation.

And so on.

Now onto humanities, you may be a solopsist That's a cool word, never heard of it before, but not actually what I'm thinking. and pretend that humans can't be made to do things against their will Actually, I just like to hope that we're not hijacking the bodies of sentient beings when we 'Tenno' into a warframe, I'm well aware the Orokin have mind control technology of some extent (see Corrupted, Mutalist Alad collar), or like to write off the victims that have been Not really sure what exactly you mean in this part here, but its pretty neglible to disregard that this is a thing that still has happened and still happens to what we biologically describe as humans, in multiple avenues around the world I'm well aware such things have happened. I also view a difference between bodyjacking and forcing someone to do something though.. For this reason, the idea that (people who have origin with the Orokin people) who were made to do things against their will, is a concept that is actually excercised by authors, regardless of what you feel makes someone human. So your reason for denying that the Tenno were legit people and are just meat puppets, is not a very good one.

Nowhere do I deny that the Tenno are legit people. I just happen to think that they're not physical people.  Tenno are a human Conciseness, and the Warframe is their body. Whether they're a fleshy person or a mute robot or somewhere in between, that human conciseness is still there. They're still human to me.

 

So, just one more time for clarity's sake:

I don't believe not having a body makes you not human.

I don't believe that not having a body makes you human either.

I view Human is something that is defined by their Conciseness being that of a human. They have ideals, thoughts, memories, opinions, feelings, fears, desires etc.

Tenno are human, they possess these things, even if they don't nessicarlly possess a body that is biologically "homo sapiens" or even their original one. The Grineer are too. As are many of the Corpus people we see. Are the corpus proxies "human" in that sense? Animals? Plants? Inanimate objects? I dunno, but it ain't exactly relevant to this.

So, question for clarity: If you (like, you right now) download your mind into another body (through freakin' magical science or whatever), do you cease being human?

[PoopManZ]

Well, two things. First, that's not what "random" means. If you have basic central air, you can't heat or cool your livingroom without also heating/cooling your kitchen. It's not random, it's a built-in limitation on the core design.

 

Second, we already know that the Orokin don't have as much control over the genetic limitations of the Grineer as you're suggesting. Right there in the Lancer imprint, we see Grineer designed for manual labor overcome their genetic limitations—limitations that the Orokin present at the time expected would make them an ineffective fighting force—and defeat an unknown but presumably large Infested force. Right there, in that imprint, we see that the Orokin don't have strong control over how intelligent their Grineer could become.

 

 

 

Theories require evidence. You're arguing from the position that the achievements of modern Grineer are irrelevant to the capabilities of Orokin Grineer, based on your theory that modern Grineer are smarter. You have no evidence for your theory, so the ramifications of that theory are insupportable.

 

 

 

Yes, and what I've said several times now is that if you modify a creature to such an extensive degree that it can use complex tools on its own initiative to further its own goals, you're no longer working with an animal. You're working with a sapient creature. Which leads to...

 

 

That's a completely useless manual laborer. You'd be better off with a robot. Moreover, there's no evidence whatsoever that the Orokin Grineer were such simpletons that they needed to be directed to perform each and every task. To the contrary, we actually have hard proof that they weren't that dumb. A creature that is only smart enough to perform each task as its directed, with specific instructions, is by definition not smart enough to pick up a power saw and use it as a weapon to protect their 'masters' against a threat—much less smart enough to then turn around and betray those 'masters' to ensure their own survival.

 

An animal that can talk, but can't do anything else that might require sapience, is probably just an animal. An animal that can drive, but can't do anything else that might require sapience, is probably just an animal. An animal that can talk, and drive, and use tools, and formulate abstract plans, and use language to coerce other people, and adapt complex tools to completely unfamiliar situations—that simply isn't an animal anymore.

 

To add further to the point of the Grinner's capabilities: The Grineer are also known to be extremely resourceful and have derived their own social system of assigning Grineer to posts based on their physical and mental capabilities, mitigating the variance of the genetic degeneracy they have and maximizing their man power. They wouldn't just magically attain intuition coming from an apparent "dumb animal" origin. 

Edited October 10, 2015 by PoopManZ

[UrielColtan]

So, just one more time for clarity's sake:

I don't believe not having a body makes you not human.

I don't believe that not having a body makes you human either.

I view Human is something that is defined by their Conciseness being that of a human. They have ideals, thoughts, memories, opinions, feelings, fears, desires etc.

Tenno are human, they possess these things, even if they don't nessicarlly possess a body that is biologically "homo sapiens" or even their original one. The Grineer are too. As are many of the Corpus people we see. Are the corpus proxies "human" in that sense? Animals? Plants? Inanimate objects? I dunno, but it ain't exactly relevant to this.

So, question for clarity: If you (like, you right now) download your mind into another body (through freakin' magical science or whatever), do you cease being human?

Don't know if it is because I am on a phone, but your response looks like a cluttered mess to me and you have an odd way of quoting my comments. I`ll try to decipher it in any case.

First off, I know what you said, you said the bodies in the warframe can`t be actual human because it would be difficult to supress and control them. So you assumed they need Out of body conciousness.

Secondly, the other quote about Alad`s Zanuka that you presented, does not actually argue in the other direction.

We already know that Alad uses the Warframe parts too, since the Profit trailer. The bodies are still mentioned by Lotus and would obviously be inside the frames, it contradicts nothing.

So no, you are wrong about the bodies being worthless without some stupid out of body consciousness possessing them,just like you were also wtong about thinking the people in the pods in defense missions aren`t Tenno when the Cryopods have said quite the opposite for a very long time when you put your retical over them.

You also still don`t know what was actually done to Valkyr so don`t try to push your fanon onto me, waiting for me to buy it.

Next, if a nebulous ghost being is so slipshod that it contorts to the behavior of a warframe`s programming, what honestly makes the ghost itself, a rational thinking being?

A physical human being dying is more relateable as I am a physical human being, who are finite in design and behavior individually. Being incorporeal beings and possessing people as if to casually put on a new suit? Not so much. Too random and dissociative disordered as a presentation to get attached to.

You still aren`t convincing me that such disregard for bodies isn`t a bit too sociopathic and perverted for me to even care about such a being, let alone possession being open for one big get out of jail free card.

Incorporeal becoming incorporeal is ultimately redundant and has little bite nor excitement to it.

Next,don`t waste my time with your pitiful "no you" questions.

If you honestly equate this energy being bodyjacking hijinks to being the same thing as what you have been vehmently arguing against this whole time, then you are too solopsist for this discussion.

There is no science supporting body jacking being possible in real life either, let alone that it would even be positively embraced, to just create a bunch of human bodies to use as mere vehicles to artificially extend someone elses life.

And at that point, would they really be able to die if their memory can be backed up and downloaded into another vessel like some cold machine?

At that point then I can very well say that no, I would not really feel anythling for the death of any human who is made able to do this, as death is practically meaningless for them at this point, especially when coupling that with using other human bodies so cavalierely.

Edited October 10, 2015 by UrielColtan

[CBAROG]

such disregard for bodies isn`t a bit too sociopathic and perverted for me to even care about such a being,

You are extremely close-minded then. It's actually our consciousness that defines us, not our flesh. 

[UrielColtan]

You are extremely close-minded then. It's actually our consciousness that defines us, not our flesh. 

 

Yes, I'm sure thats how Ed Gein or Ted Bundy rationalized things as well. So many perverted activites we can excuse by playing make believe and pretending that another foreign body has no use of existence until we capture it.

There is no good argument in this theory that is convincing me that the bodies being jacked should't have a consciouness of their own. This vehement argument that a body must be detached from its own consciouness is what is closed minded to me. A single consciouness having more than one body to casually takeover, is a spoiled and depriving existence from how I see it. I as a mono sentient physical being, can't relate to or find concern for some being of no substance or commited tether to reality, that can just cavalierly discard one existence and take over others. It comes off as selfish and macabre that they are not only hording vessels that can otherwise host another life, but also the fact that such an existence doesn't invoke much emotion toward the ghost upon the body vessel's mortal injury, as the ghost could extend their real world presence through jacking another body.

Edited October 10, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Morec0]

<snip>

 

Ahh, okay, I see now.

 

I do suppose a lot of acceptance of the theory comes down to how one views the human body and consciousness. Personally I look forward to the potential future in which human existence isn't limited by the restrictions of the human body or perhaps even flesh, meat and bone. I personally find theming and ideas behind transcending the human body to exist within another form - physical as I think that form should be - to be fascinating from a storytelling perspective, as well as the direction human evolution should inevitably take in order to reach our own objective perfection as a species. The human body and regular evolution can only take us so far, it will always have limitation that will require augmentation, if not full replacement, to overcome.

 

But that's just my opinion, and you're certainly entitled to your own view on the matter.

[UrielColtan]

I think having consciouness restricted by mono physical limitiations is a necessary evil personally. All manner of ill activity can take place with people ghosting around. I chalk that up with multiple other technological achievements that should not be made, like time travel, if even they were possible.

In either case, this universe's fiction references repeatedly about clones having their own consiousness, even certain ones mentioned during the Orokin era, as addressed in Synthesis targets. I have no reason to believe this would not also be the case for human bodies merely made to be taxi's for nebulous ghosts.

Even if  it was ever the case that they didn't, its disturbing having bodies in lockers waiting for you to suit up inside them, thats bordering on creepster sociopath to me, and such similar things are written as such in many works of fiction.

Edited October 10, 2015 by UrielColtan

[Demdemeh]

So, after all we are the bad guys...we are the dark side of the force...

 

Damn, I thought that extinguishing a canine specie by slaughtering hundred thousands Feral Kubrows in order to get one Egg was right...

 

How couldn't I see tha-... "DING!!" ...oh, the microwave says another Kubrow and...is not the color I wanted. Gonna sell to the butc-...give it to the shelter!

[EmptyDevil]

So, after all we are the bad guys...we are the dark side of the force...

 

The Tenno aren't the bad guys. The Orokin deserved what they got.

[Morec0]

I think having consciouness restricted by mono physical limitiations is a necessary evil personally. All manner of ill activity can take place with people ghosting around. I chalk that up with multiple other technological achievements that should not be made, like time travel, if even they were possible.

In either case, this universe's fiction references repeatedly about clones having their own consiousness, even certain ones mentioned during the Orokin era, as addressed in Synthesis targets. I have no reason to believe this would not also be the case for human bodies merely made to be taxi's for nebulous ghosts.

Even if  it was ever the case that they didn't, its disturbing having bodies in lockers waiting for you to suit up inside them, thats bordering on creepster sociopath to me, and such similar things are written as such in many works of fiction.

 

Opinions will be opinions, I disagree but that's why they're opinions. To me I see a better future made through our ability to cast off the failings and weaknesses of our regular bodies and enhance ourselves as we see the need, but everything in the world has a dark side - though, unlike time travel, I see this future very much as a real possibility. Not a surefire inevitability, perhaps, but certainly something that could come to pass.

 

On topic: I don't see the Warframes as being human bodies as the likes of Grineer clones and whatnot are - they're very much like the Infested, and we see what happens when Infested bodies have consciousness. The Tenno controlling them is the best option, as was seen during the Rhino Prime Codex when a Tenno stopped a rampaging - what I to believe - proto-Rhino experiment, of sorts, from back when the Warframes WERE autonomous creations of the Orokin being designed to fight in the Old War - alongside Lephantis and whatnot (which raises fascinating questions about what Lephantis might have been before it spent all those centuries consuming mass and growing).

 

Whether or not the Warframes retain their own autonomy while there is no Tenno piloting them IS a fascinating question and we don't really have much to say in regards to it, but I think that once the Tenno were discovered to be able to act as a rational and same consciousness to drive them the need for the Technocyte-Warframes to be self-aware and able to act on their own was discarded.

 

I can completely understand your cummupants with the idea, though.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

 

Well, two things. First, that's not what "random" means. If you have basic central air, you can't heat or cool your livingroom without also heating/cooling your kitchen. It's not random, it's a built-in limitation on the core design.

 

 

First, you really love to talk about air conditioning.

second, i go by the standard definition and not by the AC definition of random.

Second, we already know that the Orokin don't have as much control over the genetic limitations of the Grineer as you're suggesting. Right there in the Lancer imprint, we see Grineer designed for manual labor overcome their genetic limitations—limitations that the Orokin present at the time expected would make them an ineffective fighting force—and defeat an unknown but presumably large Infested force. Right there, in that imprint, we see that the Orokin don't have strong control over how intelligent their Grineer could become.

Powertools are dangerous and you dont need a combat expert to do damage with them.

The conversation was about their smarts not their physical abilities. Which would likely be high because they are designed to do a lot of labour.

You're arguing from the position that the achievements of modern Grineer are irrelevant to the capabilities of Orokin Grineer, based on your theory that modern Grineer are smarter. You have no evidence for your theory, so the ramifications of that theory are insupportable.

While most of this is theories we do very well know that some Grineer are smart and some have very low capacities.

Clem is a very recent examples.

The Natah quests has a smart Grineer sending a letter to a dumb one where his TLDR is. "NEED HELP. SEND TROOPS."

And Tenshin, i think, even mentions that the Grineer is smarter than the rest.

The theory, which i have repeated several times, is that when the collapse happened and the Twin Queens took over, they took control because they were smart. But, of course, they knew they couldn't control all by themselves so they went on to create the smart ones.

DE could do something cool like, all the Grineer are dumb but the Twin Queens have some device they can put on some that ramps up their intelligence. Whatever they learn while they are smart is recorded and when that clone dies the machine is put on a new clones that automatically learns everything. You know, like the Matrix, "I know Kung Fu."

This could also explain why all the bosses have their unique way of acting. Because the original machine was just some Orokin recording device use to keep records. But the device also recorded personalities so Vay Hek got a machine from a crazy politician, Sargas Ruk got a machine from an honorable warrior, etc, etc.

That's a completely useless manual laborer. You'd be better off with a robot.

When apparently not because construction still exist, janitors, etc, etc.

Moreover, there's no evidence whatsoever that the Orokin Grineer were such simpletons that they needed to be directed to perform each and every task. To the contrary, we actually have hard proof that they weren't that dumb. A creature that is only smart enough to perform each task as its directed, with specific instructions, is by definition not smart enough to pick up a power saw and use it as a weapon to protect their 'masters' against a threat—much less smart enough to then turn around and betray those 'masters' to ensure their own survival.

Well, they are not robots that have one line of code, dude.

A dumb creature still can come up with solutions based on the knowledge they have.

An animal that can talk, but can't do anything else that might require sapience, is probably just an animal. An animal that can drive, but can't do anything else that might require sapience, is probably just an animal. An animal that can talk, and drive, and use tools, and formulate abstract plans, and use language to coerce other people, and adapt complex tools to completely unfamiliar situations—that simply isn't an animal anymore.

Like i said earlier, you really need to look at some recent animal documentaries.

Cause it's going to blow your mind and you are going to have to restructure the animal kingdom.

 

 

But she is the mother of chromas. i could never betray her.

 

What are you talking about?

Wasnt Chroma some random thing that didnt get an answer?

 

[Vadrigos]

What Stalker?

[EmptyDevil]

-snip-

 

You need to read this post.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/508155-so-wait-the-stalker-was-right-spoilers/?p=6091864

[motorfirebox]

First, you really love to talk about air conditioning.

second, i go by the standard definition and not by the AC definition of random.

I've been doing a lot of HVAC work lately. *shrug* And the standard definition of "random" is not what you're using. Random means that you don't know what the result will be. That's completely different from not knowing how to get a different result from what you're currently getting.

 

Which is an issue the Orokin apparently encountered frequently in their genetic manipulations, considering that they made a practice of sorting through the Grineer they produced and saving the ones with exceptional qualities, in attempts to transfer those qualities to later batches. Again, the evidence we have proves that the Orokin did not have as fine control over the Grineer's inherited qualities as you assume they did.

 

 

 

 

Powertools are dangerous and you dont need a combat expert to do damage with them.

The conversation was about their smarts not their physical abilities. Which would likely be high because they are designed to do a lot of labour.

And as I keep telling you, the kind of labor the Grineer were designed to do requires sapience. If the Grineer are designed to be smart enough to work with power tools, they are designed to be sapient. You keep dismissing manual labor like it doesn't require any intelligence. You are wrong on that point.

 

 

 

 

While most of this is theories we do very well know that some Grineer are smart and some have very low capacities.

Clem is a very recent examples.

The Natah quests has a smart Grineer sending a letter to a dumb one where his TLDR is. "NEED HELP. SEND TROOPS."

And Tenshin, i think, even mentions that the Grineer is smarter than the rest.

The theory, which i have repeated several times, is that when the collapse happened and the Twin Queens took over, they took control because they were smart. But, of course, they knew they couldn't control all by themselves so they went on to create the smart ones.

DE could do something cool like, all the Grineer are dumb but the Twin Queens have some device they can put on some that ramps up their intelligence. Whatever they learn while they are smart is recorded and when that clone dies the machine is put on a new clones that automatically learns everything. You know, like the Matrix, "I know Kung Fu."

This could also explain why all the bosses have their unique way of acting. Because the original machine was just some Orokin recording device use to keep records. But the device also recorded personalities so Vay Hek got a machine from a crazy politician, Sargas Ruk got a machine from an honorable warrior, etc, etc.

Yes, those are some interesting theories. They don't, however, carry you any distance towards justifying your position that modern Grineer are more intelligent than Orokin-era Grineer.

 

 

When apparently not because construction still exist, janitors, etc, etc.

 

Man, you are not reading the words that I am writing. You are flat out, completely, all the way, totally frickin' wrong about how much intelligence is required for construction, sanitation work, etc etc. These are not jobs that creatures of animal-level intelligence can perform. They require too much in the way of problem solving, rapid learning and adaption, abstract thinking, and so on. There is more to being a janitor than swinging a mop around. There is more to being a construction worker than banging on the specific nail that your foreman told you to bang on. You are completely wrong on this point.

 

 

Well, they are not robots that have one line of code, dude.

A dumb creature still can come up with solutions based on the knowledge they have.

Except that you just got done saying that the Orokin Grineer were only smart enough to perform work under constant supervision and direct instruction. a) A laborer with such limits is useless, because it means you'd have to have your own people acting as foremen, right down there in the muck and danger of construction, sanitation, and whatever else alongside the Grineer that were supposed to do all that stuff for you. b) We already know they weren't that limited, from the imprints.

 

 

 

Like i said earlier, you really need to look at some recent animal documentaries.

Cause it's going to blow your mind and you are going to have to restructure the animal kingdom.

 

Yes, there are some amazing clever animals. No, there aren't any animals smart enough to use a power drill, and any 'animal' that can work in construction can no longer be considered an animal.

Edited October 11, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Tostov]

-snip-

Explanation about the quote: I was lazy, so I just put the responses in the quote bolded rather than copying out each paragraph. Sorry.

Partially, I was sort of trying to get specific bits of your viewpoint, but uhh, Morec0 is scary good at discussions. Pretty much provided the information from you that I was looking for.

There's one specific thing I want to respond to though, even though Morec0 did actually address it anyway,

 

Yes, I'm sure thats how Ed Gein or Ted Bundy rationalized things as well. So many perverted activites we can excuse by playing make believe and pretending that another foreign body has no use of existence until we capture it.

Huh? When people say something is defined by its conciseness not it's flesh, I fail to see how that excuses the activities of nut-jobs/sociopaths who went around killing and mutilating willy nilly. If you kill someone or something, it's very likely, that in real life, it's conciseness doesn't exist any more. With a living human or animal, there's some evidence that it is conscious. The moment you kill it, you, with almost complete certainty erase that conscious and all evidence of its existence, hell, you don't even need to to kill it, reducing a living thing to a vegatative state or even just rendering them unconscious (though there's a good chance they'll come back in this instance) are both pretty freakin' bad as well.

No one in their right mind would use that phrase to excuse something like that.

We get to ignore this stuff in warframe, just like we ignore the mass killings we do (only in the game I hope), cause it's a game.

" its disturbing having bodies in lockers waiting for you to suit up inside them"

Sorta why people see the Orokin as evil or extremely desperate. The idea that this empire made such a warrior that they would have this capability is what makes them so creepy (I mean, they made the infested as well and pretty much made both the original grineer and the modern grineer, and lets not forget the corrupted). Though I view the bodies as "living" in the sense that infested are, rather than say, "living" like the Kubrows are to help alleviate that, but yes, it is still exceptionally disturbing.

 

[Leavith]

Their is th possibility that each Tenno is an individual...after all Tenno work with Tenno..simply said why must we buy warframe slots or buy weapon slots were do this weapons go.if out ship can store a weapon and our full armor why can it not store a clone of the original Tenno that used that warframe.

In all perspective it could just be just that we the person that plays as the Tenno just has the perspective of the Tenno

The ember

The rhino

The chroma

The Mesa

The Tenno

They are all themselves an individual.

It may sound crazy but look at the fact if we killed Mesa control by Alan v how come we didn't automatically get the Mesa warframe?

Now I am looking at this as if De was not real and as if players didn't exist and Tenno were individual it would make sense that if a Loki killed the infested Mesa he would not be able to use that warframe.

How to kill a tenno without damaging the warframe ....toxic weapon go through the armor straight to health killing the flesh inside leaving the warframe.simple would not have to farm alas v for parts.

Tenno being individuals is not a new concept s

ince we have example of mirage and other warframe and Tenno existing not control by a player

We can look at the statue of excal prime in the infested void ships should we say that only one excelrime existed and only one warrior warframe?

Why can so many warframe exist at once.why can you have multiple warframe.

Why did the grineer Vor believed that he messing with us and dissecting us as well murdering and studing us would save them from decay.

Maybe because we are good example of clones that don't decay no matter how much we multiplied

.so simply said what we have access to is just the perspective of the Tenno.if this wasn't a game but a true story told for a Tenno point of view the idea that we have wouldn't be true.why would it matter getting the device of the warframe

and warframe goes to sleep while the next one takes over to do another mission. We get four revives and the body gets left behind and when we die we can spectate another Tenno just a quick change of perspective.

We the player at just seeing that Tenno perspective

Because this is a game we can control their action

Now I feel like it would be most convenient if we try to look at the lore from the perspective as if Tenno are individual after all taking all words said in the game nothing said that is not a game mechanic contradicts the idea of Tenno being individual. Well I might forget something but that's just an idea right guys.

[Urlan]

The warframes are not Tenno, they are suits that we, the Tenno wear. Alad V didn't understand that we were seperate from our warframes - he thought we were the warframes - robots to be taken apart and put back together as needed. The Tenno are individuals that wear the Mesa, Chroma, or Saryn suits and as the devs have said, we each play one Tenno who each switch warframe suits. What we are under the suits is open to theory right now but that part isn't. The Mirage getting fried is the Tenno wearing a mass produced Mirage suit getting fried not Mirage the warframe as an individual. We can pick poses as something we like doing while wearing the suit not something inherit to the suit outside of arsenal mechanics.

[Leavith]

I am be hard headed and say while you do say this their isn't actual evidence that says the theory of us being individual is not true.

Both ember codex child shows power and is not in suit as well as Proto rhino shows power.we have grineer,corpus,infested p,and stalker who can use warframe powers

If the power was in just in the suit this would not be possible

If we were individuals then gaining power would be possible without the suit

If the warframe and Tenno were bound together and what we really have is the perspective of the Tenno then changing warframe/Tenno to another would simply be one Tenno/warframe going to sleep while another one tags in

Just base of the fact you have to buy inventory and space we could a guy that is for safe keeping and we consider that revives are not share as whole but as an individual them we can easily suggest hey maybe we are individual

While I myself don't honestly care or believe which side might be true I do like to stay open to ideas and this idea is not honestly debunked specially if all we are using are just words not example or actual evidence..In honest truth just word verifying from DE would be enough to

The warframes are not Tenno, they are suits that we, the Tenno wear. Alad V didn't understand that we were seperate from our warframes - he thought we were the warframes - robots to be taken apart and put back together as needed. The Tenno are individuals that wear the Mesa, Chroma, or Saryn suits and as the devs have said, we each play one Tenno who each switch warframe suits. What we are under the suits is open to theory right now but that part isn't. The Mirage getting fried is the Tenno wearing a mass produced Mirage suit getting fried not Mirage the warframe as an individual. We can pick poses as something we like doing while wearing the suit not something inherit to the suit outside of arsenal mechanics.

[Mak_Gohae]

I think having consciouness restricted by mono physical limitiations is a necessary evil personally. All manner of ill activity can take place with people ghosting around. I chalk that up with multiple other technological achievements that should not be made, like time travel, if even they were possible.

In either case, this universe's fiction references repeatedly about clones having their own consiousness, even certain ones mentioned during the Orokin era, as addressed in Synthesis targets. I have no reason to believe this would not also be the case for human bodies merely made to be taxi's for nebulous ghosts.

Even if  it was ever the case that they didn't, its disturbing having bodies in lockers waiting for you to suit up inside them, thats bordering on creepster sociopath to me, and such similar things are written as such in many works of fiction.

 

Several warframes have Tenno designation numbers painted on their warframes.

 Tenno Model 2100N serial 148-H

 

So the idea of cloned brainless bodies used to move the warframes doesnt sound like a crazy theory.

Even if you dont like the concept.

 

Hek, we could actually be OROKIN! Orokin in energy form.

Since you people think the Orokin are all evil and stuff maybe this became a Game of Thrones situation where several houses wanted control of the Kingdom. One house made a deal with the Sentients and lead an attack. But there was probably some fail safe switch or the Sentients betrayed the house their allied with and this is how we all ended up in this situation. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mak_Gohae

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

Which is an issue the Orokin apparently encountered frequently in their genetic manipulations, considering that they made a practice of sorting through the Grineer they produced and saving the ones with exceptional qualities, in attempts to transfer those qualities to later batches. Again, the evidence we have proves that the Orokin did not have as fine control over the Grineer's inherited qualities as you assume they did.

 

 

Yeah, Grineer are not machines, that's obvious.

But from what we know about the Orokin and their genetics there nothing saying that they just randomly created stuff.

"We need some humanoid workers!"

"Ok throw some humanoid genes in the pot and see what happens!"

 

 

And i am no longer have a conversation about the definition of the word.

 

 

And as I keep telling you, the kind of labor the Grineer were designed to do requires sapience. If the Grineer are designed to be smart enough to work with power tools, they are designed to be sapient. You keep dismissing manual labor like it doesn't require any intelligence. You are wrong on that point.

 

I never said that manual labour means you have no intelligence.

I said that it requires low intelligence. Like i said before, you dont need doctos to work construction.

 

 

Man, you are not reading the words that I am writing. You are flat out, completely, all the way, totally frickin' wrong about how much intelligence is required for construction, sanitation work, etc etc. These are not jobs that creatures of animal-level intelligence can perform. They require too much in the way of problem solving, rapid learning and adaption, abstract thinking, and so on. There is more to being a janitor than swinging a mop around. There is more to being a construction worker than banging on the specific nail that your foreman told you to bang on. You are completely wrong on this point.

 

When i saw low level intelligence i dont mean you are smart as a 3 year old.

Humans didn't pop out with the brain ability to understand a black hole but didn't because they have the tools.

They had less capacity but it was enough to figure out some tools, framing, and taming animals.

Also, orangutan copying humans using tools.

There was also another one being stupid in some university where they taught him the concept of money. And he had to work to get paid so he could use the money to buy snacks.

 

It seems that you think that all animals are some other scale of intelligence because they dont have the ability to make sneakers and guitars.

Again, the orangutan copying humans using tools.

 

 

Except that you just got done saying that the Orokin Grineer were only smart enough to perform work under constant supervision and direct instruction. a) A laborer with such limits is useless, because it means you'd have to have your own people acting as foremen, right down there in the muck and danger of construction, sanitation, and whatever else alongside the Grineer that were supposed to do all that stuff for you. b) We already know they weren't that limited, from the imprints.

 

Dude, the Grineer were not working on mom and pop business.

They are working for a big, BIG business here. People under big businesses should be under constant supervision.

You think miners are left alone to just blow up random stuff?

 

 

Yes, there are some amazing clever animals. No, there aren't any animals smart enough to use a power drill, and any 'animal' that can work in construction can no longer be considered an animal.

 

Orangutan using tools copying the people they see.

And you can call it whatever you want but i dont think that they would be on the same level and the standard orokin resident.

[-Judgement]

Told ya

Edited October 15, 2015 by ____Stalker____