So Wait... The Stalker Was Right? (Spoilers?)

[motorfirebox]

Not at all, you are the one framing this as animal being biological computers that only go around eating and pooping.

Im the one elevating this picture you have of them. Animals do a lot of "human things." This gets framed like this because people have this idea that they are the only ones that can possibly have all these behaviours.

 

 

Uh, no. You're claiming that because a dog can be trained to steer a car around a closed track, something with animal intelligence must therefore be able to communicate in full sentences, apply complex tools to new situations, clearly communicate and understand abstract concepts, and otherwise act with the full sapience available to almost any human being—all at the same time. If apes were intelligent enough to be used as construction workers, someone would be doing that.

Edited September 20, 2015 by motorfirebox

[SilentMobius]

Bro, The Technocyte Virus A.K.A. the Infested (I think) was made during the Cold War

 

Devstream 52 confirmed that Dark Sector isn't a prequel to Warframe, there is nothing in the DS story we can rely on as fact in the Warframe universe. Design, Names, Even whole meshes have been re-used but without explicit confirmation of a story element we have no reason to assume that and specific event of DS happened in the past of Warframe (and certainly not the full story)

 

The pre-codex blurb for the infestation said: "origins are uncertain but there is historical evidence of a similar outbreak before The Collapse" and the Lotus tells us specifically that Lephantis was created to fight in the Old War, nothing about weather it was deployed or about the infestation as a whole.

[Mak_Gohae]

Okay mak in the eyes of the grineer what were they to the orokin.slaves.in the eyes of the orokin they were a created workforce.and for your assumption if your gonna regard mine that has physical evidence compare to your that just really plain metaphors and comparisons .then you can easily say you also have no base to back you up that corpus were taken by the grineer.while is not impossible is the same as mine is not impossible but now here we are just discussing ideas.and for the record the grineer were the orokin slaves that doesn't change is just that slavery of lesser race is viewed as okay for their time.if you want to have better picture free will isn't something they stood for just look at the neural sentry in the void and the eviscerator sys I believe it mentions corrupted.

 

Where did you get the idea that the Grineer see themselves are slaves?

Where did you get physical evidence that the Grineer are human? You mean that because they look like one they must be one? That's not really some hard evidence. There's this thing called converget evolution that shows that different animals can develop the same traits have no connection with each other at all. The Grineer could be just super evolve raccoon. This is what a raccoon will end up look like in the future. But the raccoon are way smarter than these dumb Grineer so i'll say that the Grineer come from honey badger DNA.

 

And all im saying is that if you are going to call creating worker creatures slavery then human are in the same level as the Orokin because humans still use worker creatures. Hell, we even kept creatures simply for entertainment purposes. So humans are slavers on the same level as the Orokin are. If they are "evil" for using creatures they are as "evil" as we are now. 

 

Dang Mak, you really wanna take stalker's Hate right in the Oro huh?

 

 

I have said plenty of time that Tenshin, Darvo, some Cephalon, and the Syndicate leaders can be our controllers.

 

Anyway, some other clues to the Orokin nature lie within both the single mindedness of cephalons, and quite a lot about Ordis. Firstly, Ordis' alternate-personality lines are very brutal, often riling statements that expect the enemy no quarter, a very imperialistic view. Secondly he refers to himself from a third person perspective, which is often used to designate a difference between individuals at a societal level.

 

We have no idea if the mess that Ordis is now has anything to do with the Orokin.

Ordis could be showing what the Sentient known as Lotus did to accomplish her plan.

 

And it's evil to build a machine to perform a specific task? Something humans have been doing forever?

 

Another instance of this is in the prime codex entries. The orokin were very fond of councils, often with a clear air of superiority towards those in charge. Considering the information we have, disobedience or even disappointment of superiors would likely result in severe penalties to those responsible for it, more likely at many levels or society.

 

Ok so having a government with law & order is also evil.

We have an anarchist, over here.

 

Again, something humans have presently all around the world.

 

Anyway, about creating the grineer and the ethical concerns with it. Consider this: Orokin had advanced enough robotics to easily create simple task based robots with a single human overseer easily managing tasks between them, likely with subroutines for additional safety.

 

We dont know the level of robotics the Orokin have.

In fact, all the orokin tech we have currently mostly consist of living beings. The Tower zombies, the Tenno\Warframes, and the Infested.

 

Why then, would they create a living, breathing creature with far more intelligence than required for such a task? Not only that, but the corrupted (i.e. Void tower defenders) were a present force and technology before the sentients were ever an issue. You can argue slavery of grineer with such limited evidence.[/uuote]

 

The standard Grineer is not that smart. Pretty sure that back in the day they didnt have Tyls and Tengus running around.

And you are saying why create a creature specifically for manual labour when they could actually had slaves from their own people?

 

However, the void control device clearly violates something's conciseness, something that is really, quite undeniably not a tool of a harmonious and giving society. It's a tool for forcing your will upon others, for perverting their thoughts and wills with your own. And in relation to Alad V and infestation, it's quite clear that his affliction isn't "nothing", at times, he very clearly struggles to seperate himself from the genral infested consumption.

 

The control device is a countermeasure.

 

Even if we look at positive aspects of the society (the two "sisters" who could heal with their mind), it becomes pretty clear that they were often just treated as cogs in the gigantic Orokin machine, to be switched or disposed of as required.

 

One person not wanting to bring them along when there's an infested breakout is not an example of the norm.

 

That's the over-aching effect of the Orokin, a tool for each purpose, something that in a freedom orientated society, undoubtly seems bad. The grineer just happen to represent that line of thought so well.

 

The creature called Grineer is not part of the society. The creature called Grineer was created to free the society from that type of labour and go on to do other things.

 

Remember, the Orokin society as a whole was corrupted, decayed by ignorance and short shortsightedness.

 

Where are you getting all this from?

 

However, that doesn't mean that every person who made it up was bad. But it certainly means that not every person who was in it was good either. It's often said that power corrupts, and so the fastest way to rid corruption is to cut off that which has the most power. The Echelon based society of the Orokin meant that when the tenno cut down the leaders and their golden robes, they didn't just kill the higher ups, they also annhiliated the whole tennet of what "Orokin" was.

 

How about we just change the leadership instead of just killing everyone which leads to a power vacuum that ends up creating a mess?

The stalker likely believed in this system, and perhaps thought it was of good intentions, even if they knew it was flawed as a whole. Perhaps they were just idealistic, and didn't realise the state of decay within the system, because they had information witheld. Regardless of why they first fell to the grudge, we can probably say for certain that the stalker despises the tenno, for no other reason than to despise them. The fact that they became the destroyer of something the stalker so cherished was likely why the grudge was formed. Many, many years of torment, unable to retaliate against his archenemies likely didn't do too well for the stalker's phsyche anyway, especially as the system plunged once more into chaos, a concept potentially completely foreign to the stalker before then.

 

A lot of this argument is based on personal canon based on little to no info.

I go with what we got i dont make up whole stories to fill in the gaps. Yes, i throw a bit of what if? But i dont treat it as actual lore.

 

Also, implying you decide the logic of a "God", top kek. Are you saying that you have a right to decide what that is?

 

I didnt imply anything, i said what i wrote.

Gods create things and they decide what to do with them.

And it was mostly a joke.

 

[Leavith]

@Mak did you just ask were do I get the idea that grineer saw themselves as slaves?....I feel like now you really just want to keep this thread alive by starting pointless discussions.

Well they are not being payed and are force to do labor.their life are worth nothing and the only thing they can do to stay alive is work so that they get feed so they can keep working.Huh sound a lot like slaves.

As for the physical evidence they are human like have you ever killed a grineer I am sure you have but what I refer have you ever study their corpses?i am no nekros by any means but with slash weapon and puncture weapons you can make holes in their body and see their organs and bones.

As for being dumb look their are many examples of people in our life who are dumber then a raccoon.we call them specially handicapped the grineer are a bunch of deteriorated clones that have all similarity to us only difference is the time they exist while corpus may be like us as well we are told they are from the orokin and the orokin were advance beings .

Now you must be silly you brought a raccoon an animal with claws and tail compare to the grineer I have not seen a grineer butcher with a tail yet so I have no idea why you thought they were raccoons.you pretty much now just not wanting to understand the fact that grineer has more physical evidence that it point to being human or human like.but since aliens don't exist is more likely human an engineer raccoon would have instincts of raccoon and as you said our grineer are to dumb to be raccoon in all simplicity they are dumb to be humans..

Oh and as for humans doing the same things oh that definitely true but I don't care in my eyes if is not useful or entertaining put it down maybe dead is more useful or entertaining.

[arch111]

I am lost in this thread.

Are you really debating if Grineer.were.slaves or not under the Orokin?

As Regor said about the Sentients.

"They crushed the Orokin. They FREED us!"

Naturally they were slaves wnd workers. Engineered to be loyal and hard working.

[motorfirebox]

Basically, Mak thinks that a bunch of guys who can speak in complete sentences, understand and act on abstract concepts, use complex tools, adapt clothing as armor, and are intelligent enough after generations of genetic decay to engage in advanced scientific research—those guys aren't any smarter than your average dog. Dogs can drive cars, you know!

[Leavith]

I am lost in this thread.

Are you really debating if Grineer.were.slaves or not under the Orokin?

As Regor said about the Sentients.

"They crushed the Orokin. They FREED us!"

Naturally they were slaves wnd workers. Engineered to be loyal and hard working.

  

Basically, Mak thinks that a bunch of guys who can speak in complete sentences, understand and act on abstract concepts, use complex tools, adapt clothing as armor, and are intelligent enough after generations of genetic decay to engage in advanced scientific research—those guys aren't any smarter than your average dog. Dogs can drive cars, you know!

Well guys lets not set more fire to the forest.because when a person ask me were I get the idea grineer saw themselves as slaves either he doesn't want to listen or admit it or he lacks the understanding of lore either way he is talking without a voice to support.

Anyways just a reference he is also arguing that they couldn't be human either.Which puts me to questions what does he think he is or does he hope DE will just say that grineer are made of kubrow DNA they mutated to get those feature.

[arch111]

To be.clear.

Read the lore. The Orokin were elitists who believed they were the best of humanity, and ALL others meant to serve them and know their place.

They are an unpleasent echo of us in our worst and most brilliant.

They were the arostocrats, the Ceasar the Pharao the nobles who no longer saw human value.

They created life yes, but not free life.

What they built and knew is worthy of admiration and awe.

But they built their golden empire on the bones of their people.

[Tostov]

Furthermore, Excal codex suggest that actual people have waframes built around them. Ember and Rhino codex further supports that we have the specific powers of certain warframes even without being inside one.

Arid Fear Victory also mentions Vor pulling corpses out of the warframes, so I think its safe to suggest that we are not mere abstract energy.

We use energy called "Oro", there is a difference.

It is the Macguffin Chi, the Ki, the Chakra, the Haki, the Lifestream, the N.O., or the Grimoire of the Tennos and whoever else used it.

Just because people utilise the afformentioned special energies, does not mean they don`t have bodies.

Besides, bleeding and breathing suits kind of defeats the purpose of empty golems.

Might as well be actual people in them if they are going to have such vulnerabilities.

Well, rather than being entirely incorporeal, I sort of figure Tenno are bound to a body, but can move between them. The Tenno itself is technically incorpreal, but without a form to sustain itself, it can't really have an influence on the world.

I mean like, suppose that you could jump from body to body, just your mind. But that's something that would most likely require some conciseness effort. So suppose you're asleep, if someone attacks/kidnaps you, well, the first notice you get of it is once they're half way through whatever they're doing. It's worse still if you're put under via drugs first, as you might not even wake up in time before they had hacked you to pieces or carted you off to some other place, at which point, even if you were capable of sustaining yourself, you would be at an extremely decisive disadvantage.

If the dudes in the cryopods were tenno, they'd be asleep, unable to respond to outside stimuli, easy to carry off and contain. I by no means think we are the tenno who are actively in the cryopods at the time. We're the tenno that have awoken, and we generally want to help those who are still suspended in cryostatis so they don't face some gruesome fate as they awaken.

In that same line, I don't think warframes are decidedly hollow either. There is a living thing inside of a warframe, at-least somewhat human in shape and nature, that's what I view the creature in the Rhino P codex as. Tenno, being originally humans, aren't suited to non-humanish bodies, in the same vein, something with too much of a will would be difficult to suppress and control. I don't figure that they're hollow in the literal sense, more in the mental sense that the living body within the warframe isn't exactly human without the Tenno controlling it. The 'warframe' as we know it was armor and support systems built around those creatures.

 

At least for the first generation of "proto" warframes. For later ones (i.e. those Tenno not descended from the Zarman kids), I can see it easily being the case that the Tenno's original body makes their orignal warframe, and becomes a template for later ones (mirage, limbo). But Tenno before they made it a 'process' of creation had likely lost their original body before they had a warframe.

 

Despite this, outside influence can take control of the body, wrestling it from the Tenno. Things like the ascaris negotiator and the control collar do something more akin to hijacking the central nervous system of the body, locking the Tenno out.

 

-snip-

 

Look, honestly we still have very little information on the Orokin. From what snippets we have directly, we know this: The Orokin were dogmatic, had very extreme tools that in no way were probably required, and were probably not too concerned over individual lives. The Orokin most certainly had robotics at least as advanced as MOAs, likely more so, and Cephalon tech was also likely much more capable during the time of the empire. Regardless of anything else, the Orokin weren't pleasant people. Those in higher positions were very much dismissive of those below them from what we know.

 

Just because something is bred and used as a tool, doesn't mean it's still a little unpleasant, at least, in modern society, this is true of both clones and animals. Judging from Orokin society, they were extremely dismissive of most things though, so undoubtly, they would see little issue with something like the grineer. I mean, there were Lorists as well as grineer, and it's whether you view them as human can come into play, after all, the ones mentioned in the synthisis article are noted to be cloned. Simmilarliy, the elitism of the "Orokin" is noted here as well

As I noted, you're right, in regards to the grineer, the Orokin viewed them exactly as that, a tool. There's not much evidence to the contrary however, that they didn't view "civillians" as a tool either, very much so considering all we see in snippets are either higher ups or military personnel. There's very little information about what civillian life in the Empire was like, but judging from what we see, and depending on what the "7 principles" are, it's not very likely that it wasn't at least, at some level, dystopian, if order maintaining (Judging from what it is though, it's close to reasearch guidelines, though viewed a bit more religiously). 

Simmilarliy, at some level, Natah's job to destroy the Orokin empire probably played a large bit into why the leadership was killed, after all, the sentients would want revenge against the Orokin empire. Even if that weren't the case, much of Orokin society was likely the same, following the same dogmatic principles, same in culture. Just switching the leadership would've resulted in no net effect. A new council would have been set up and the same mistakes they had made in the past would have likely happened again. Tenno aren't exactly the best diplomatic tool outside of just killing things. And using the tenno to enforce the new "leaders" might not turn out so well, hell, even having new leaders enstated might not have turned out well either.

arch111 above me sums it up pretty cleanly.

 

That being said, there's not many people who Tenno, especially in large numbers, could rely on. Grineer hate almost anything non-grineer, and are dead loyal to the queens, and make up really the militaristic and expansionist nature of the former Orokin empire. The Corpus also loathe us, largely because they're the closest representation of the former Orokin empire, even if they're different on the outside, they're a dogmatic organisation of merchants who are very much not above doing short sighted things like supplying the grineer with resources. Then we have the infested, which really have no qualms with ripping us up, since we're just extremely powerful prey to them.

I mean, it really mostly comes down to whether Ordis is willing to abandon the lotus. The ship and orbiter are pretty much vital parts of tenno operations, and it's likely that very few factions outside of the major 3 have the resources to provide a ship and gear housing of matching quality. Clan dojo's could represent Tenno construction, but on the other hand, the actual construction of them may actually be handled by the lotus faction as a whole, and the resources provided by the tenno in their construction.

 

I'm doubtful that the Lotus would really distrupt you if you went off and did your own thing, as long as you didn't go round hunting tenno on operations or mass slaughtering civillians. If they somehow let you, joining the corpus or Grineer would probably both be bad ideas as well. I mean, when you do work for darvo, the Lotus doesn't really bother much in terms of worrying. More Darvo would be nice, but I'm not sure he has the resources to upkeep a huge stable of tenno. Tenshin/Simaris don't seem to have much in the form of influence resources, so they might not be able to provide a simmilar service. Same thing with the Syndicates. They have resources, but whether they have enough to upkeep potential tenno operations is questionable.

So it really comes down to Ordis, and whether his loyalties lie with you, or the Lotus, as to whether you can support other factions exclusively. I mean, pay would be a potential issue, but you can loot credits. I mean, how the foundry works isn't entirely clear, but if the credits are just used to source other materials outside of the ones you provide, it might prove a bit more troublesome, but likely manageable. Blueprints would be an issue too, if the marketplace is run by the lotus. Clan dojos would be a pain if the Lotus oversees them, but if not, that could provide a way to acquire new weapons blueprints to manufacture. Not getting rewards the lotus provides from events would suck, but depending on who you're supporting, you might be able to get other gear somehow.

And that's it, going directly against the lotus is only not suicide for the two human factions who already hate the Tenno anyway. Anyone else we've seen so far is pretty much likely aided by the Lotus at some point in their existence, directly or otherwise, and biting the hand that feeds you is pretty stupid. Running independent of the Lotus as an organization is one thing, running opposing to them leaves you with very little friends left.

That being said, fighting bosses is amusing, and I will continue to do it. The Lotus pays well.

Also, about the event rewards, lets not lie, Gravius Dilemma had an arguably better reward on the attacking side. And regardless of what stats you gave the rewards, people would complain that the grass is greener on the other side anyway.

[BlackCoMerc]

I find myself...uncomfortable...with the idea that anyone thinks its okay to find, design or create living, thinking, reasoning beings, and then consign them to slavery. That is a...mildly disturbing...line of reasoning, to be honest. Especially since the only justification I have read herein is 'I think they were designed to serve.' 

 

Please think carefully about your reasoning there. I find it difficult to believe anyone could really be okay with that line of thought...

[Leavith]

I find myself...uncomfortable...with the idea that anyone thinks its okay to find, design or create living, thinking, reasoning beings, and then consign them to slavery. That is a...mildly disturbing...line of reasoning, to be honest. Especially since the only justification I have read herein is 'I think they were designed to serve.' 

 

Please think carefully about your reasoning there. I find it difficult to believe anyone could really be okay with that line of thought...

Well in the main situation as it follows the reason that I suggest is alright is based on 3factors.

Like all situation we have to understand this 3factors

The setting that all of this takes place

The belief or culture held

And the accountability of who enforces.

For us we can describe the setting many years in the future in an era were a civilization truly advance has created many projects and design a workforce for the purpose of work which was based on a design on the human who was engineer for the purpose of labor and making Orokin life better.

The belief of culture held is important to recognize while you may find it hard to believe people think this just 200 or less years back even in this day of age direct form of human slavery exist and believe is okay.So then you begin to question if your belief is a fact or if your belief an opinion on this.Your society compare to their society is different and if you were sent to their time it would clearly show you that they were okay with it and were raised in an environment were only those who are advance and great are truly valuable.while anyone else who less should shut up and do their job they are made for and assign.

And the last factor is the accountability of who enforces when you look at the fact that the enforcers or people who support this form of behavior and play a key role are those that problably have the power to kill you or are in power that they can decide how much money you make you will problably fall in line.You begin to understand that their really was no one to contradict this pro slave culture leaving it to be okay in the society time and culture that the orokin live in.But yeah I am okay with this because in the fact that politically socially mentally physically economically and it was must to have to make their society successful the Orokin society.

[Kalenath]

Devstream 52 confirmed that Dark Sector isn't a prequel to Warframe, there is nothing in the DS story we can rely on as fact in the Warframe universe. Design, Names, Even whole meshes have been re-used but without explicit confirmation of a story element we have no reason to assume that and specific event of DS happened in the past of Warframe (and certainly not the full story)

 

The pre-codex blurb for the infestation said: "origins are uncertain but there is historical evidence of a similar outbreak before The Collapse" and the Lotus tells us specifically that Lephantis was created to fight in the Old War, nothing about weather it was deployed or about the infestation as a whole.

 

It wasn't a prequel per say. It has little to do with the story of Warframe. It was a PREDECESSOR. More spiritual than actual canon.  The skins (Glaive, Excalibur and Nyx) all show that there WAS an ancient connection, but it is tenuous to say the least. By the time of Warframe, the events of DS have become myth and legend, if that.

 

The codex entries for the skins all say they 'predate Orokin' so that means that it has been a LONG time since Hayden faced Mezner in the Dark Sector of Lasria.

 

But still, Hayden WAS confirmed as the First Tenno in one of the devstreams and it has never been denied. They are cagey about saying what is canon and what isn't. Probably because things change quite a bit and the events of Dark Sector bear LITTLE on the events of Warframe.

 

I find myself...uncomfortable...with the idea that anyone thinks its okay to find, design or create living, thinking, reasoning beings, and then consign them to slavery. That is a...mildly disturbing...line of reasoning, to be honest. Especially since the only justification I have read herein is 'I think they were designed to serve.' 

 

Please think carefully about your reasoning there. I find it difficult to believe anyone could really be okay with that line of thought...

 

Far as I am concerned? The Orokin got what they deserved.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Kalenath

[Mak_Gohae]

I don't know why people think the Tenno are sapient. All they do is what they're told to do. Sure, they put on warframes and use weapons, but if a dog can be trained to drive a car I think one could learn to use a sword if you gave it hands! And Tenno don't even talk, even apes can talk using sign language. Clearly, the Tenno are no more intelligent than any animal.

 

Actually, some one posted in this thread that without the Cephalon the Tennos wouldn't be able to do anything on the ship.

So it appears that Tenno do only know how to kill and nothing else.

 

Instincts, my friend.

 

You are going with the, "because nature" bit.

 

Well, you need to see some nature documentaries from after the 1980s because now its common knowledge that animals need to learn stuff. It's common knowledge that if you raise an animal without any knowledge of the environment they are going on or skills they will just die if you just release them. Animals raised in Zoos, circus, and scientific settings cannot live in the wild. And animal bred with humans or rescued because injured NEEDs to be taught how to do things as well. That's right! Humans go on to teach animals how to live in the wild. This is common knowledge now.

 

Hek, here is a vid of a Marelok teaching her foallok how to go over an obstacle.

[Mak_Gohae]

Uh, no. You're claiming that because a dog can be trained to steer a car around a closed track, something with animal intelligence must therefore be able to communicate in full sentences, apply complex tools to new situations, clearly communicate and understand abstract concepts, and otherwise act with the full sapience available to almost any human being—all at the same time.

 

No, you are saying the simple things the Grineer do are somehow something unique to humans, therefore, they are humans.

And i have been using several examples that show that some current day animals can do the same things. Meaning that this isnt some unique thing to humans. Of course, current day creatures cannot exactly complete with a genetically engineered creature from the future but i didnt think i needed to say that. 

 

If apes were intelligent enough to be used as construction workers, someone would be doing that.

 

If we were intelligent enough to mess with their genes maybe we could have a planet of the apes situation.

 

 

 

Right now we can probably just make them glow in the dark.

 

 

@Mak did you just ask were do I get the idea that grineer saw themselves as slaves?....I feel like now you really just want to keep this thread alive by starting pointless discussions.

 

 

Yes, because i want to know where you got this from. If you dont wish to tell me where you got this from in-game ok.

I dont simply accept what's being said without some proof. If we are simply going to accept statements with no backup then the Tenno are hamster. So we solved that, lets move to something else.

 

Well they are not being payed and are force to do labor.their life are worth nothing and the only thing they can do to stay alive is work so that they get feed so they can keep working.Huh sound a lot like slaves.

 

I ask if the Grineer saw themselves as slaves and you went on to state several things with no backup in game.

If the Grineer were worried about payment, if they were forced, etc, etc, there should be some clear info in the game can you can provide.

 

Most of the lore in this game is made up of little islands that dont connect. So people have been for a while trying to make bridges. Those bridges are nothing but your own creations that no one else must cross.

 

As for the physical evidence they are human like have you ever killed a grineer I am sure you have but what I refer have you ever study their corpses?i am no nekros by any means but with slash weapon and puncture weapons you can make holes in their body and see their organs and bones.

 

A lot of stuff on this planet has bones and guts, man.

 

As for being dumb look their are many examples of people in our life who are dumber then a raccoon.we call them specially handicapped the grineer are a bunch of deteriorated clones that have all similarity to us only difference is the time they exist while corpus may be like us as well we are told they are from the orokin and the orokin were advance beings .

 

One more time, the discussion is about the original Grineer. The degradation the current Grineer have gone through should not exist as part of this conversation.

 

Now you must be silly you brought a raccoon an animal with claws and tail compare to the grineer I have not seen a grineer butcher with a tail yet so I have no idea why you thought they were raccoons.you pretty much now just not wanting to understand the fact that grineer has more physical evidence that it point to being human or human like.but since aliens don't exist is more likely human an engineer raccoon would have instincts of raccoon and as you said our grineer are to dumb to be raccoon in all simplicity they are dumb to be humans..

Oh and as for humans doing the same things oh that definitely true but I don't care in my eyes if is not useful or entertaining put it down maybe dead is more useful or entertaining.

 

I said super evolved raccoon.

We humans started a loooong time ago from mammals that were little rat-like creatures.

[motorfirebox]

No, you are saying the simple things the Grineer do are somehow something unique to humans, therefore, they are humans.

And i have been using several examples that show that some current day animals can do the same things. Meaning that this isnt some unique thing to humans. Of course, current day creatures cannot exactly complete with a genetically engineered creature from the future but i didnt think i needed to say that.

You do need to say that, because that's what you've been claiming for like ten pages now. You've even said that considering the Grineer to be intelligent had moral implications for how we treat animals today.

What you've shown is that some animals can perform a single moderately complex task under controlled conditions with constant instruction. You're showing a dog driving slowly on a closed track with their trainer in the passenger seat giving instruction. You need to show dogs driving to work every day on the freeway. The Orokin Grineer were capable of following complex plans involving high technology without direct supervision. Apes using sign language isn't remotely on the same level.

[Mak_Gohae]

I am lost in this thread.

Are you really debating if Grineer.were.slaves or not under the Orokin?

As Regor said about the Sentients.

"They crushed the Orokin. They FREED us!"

Naturally they were slaves wnd workers. Engineered to be loyal and hard working.

 

Of course, the Sentient freed them from what they were doing. The word doesnt have one exact meaning, correct.

Let's not forget what he said before this statement that it depended on who you asked the Sentient were seen differently.

And i dont think they were enginered to be loyal or else those worked would not have killed that person.

 

 

Basically, Mak thinks that a bunch of guys who can speak in complete sentences, understand and act on abstract concepts, use complex tools, adapt clothing as armor, and are intelligent enough after generations of genetic decay to engage in advanced scientific research—those guys aren't any smarter than your average dog. Dogs can drive cars, you know!

 

Said this so many times, we are discussing original Grineer. Dont know why you keep bringing current level Grineer. Why is this an issue?

 

Im saying several of those things can be done by animals now. So it should not be surprising that people genetically engineer animals decided to pump one up and turn them into a worker force.

 

And they didnt adapt anything into armor, they just put on safety gear.

[UrielColtan]

While I absolutely agree that there is way too much discussion about the physicality of the Tenno for any "ghost-tenno" hypothesis to hold much water currently I do take issue with this. I see no reason to assume that those in Corpus or Orokin cryopods are Tenno. Now that they have been chromed over so we can't even see inside any more, until we have more data I think the default assumption is that the are the same Lotus "agents" we see elsewhere.

Possibly with the exception of the pods that some of them are in being distinctly labled, Orokin artifacts. But I was also mostly referring to when Lotus has distinctly made reference to Tenno in Cryopods. She suggest that losing.them would be sad due to being familia, but nothing about you personally being effected ability wise or anything.

[UrielColtan]

While I absolutely agree that there is way too much discussion about the physicality of the Tenno for any "ghost-tenno" hypothesis to hold much water currently I do take issue with this. I see no reason to assume that those in Corpus or Orokin cryopods are Tenno. Now that they have been chromed over so we can't even see inside any more, until we have more data I think the default assumption is that the are the same Lotus "agents" we see elsewhere.

Lotus suggest otherwise, particularly during stuff like Gradivus Dilemma. Tenshin also sees us as sapient, let alone all the syndicates leaders. We communicate with them just fine, we just suffer from Gordon Freemanitus.

Edited September 24, 2015 by UrielColtan

[UrielColtan]

How else were they going to fight the infested? They made obvious decision with the information they have.

Also, that Orokin was basically screaming that they were going to be left behind. The other one basically said that it was stupid to say this in front of them.

The point of this isnt to show they are smart but to show how dumb the orokin was.

Not at all, you are the one framing this as animal being biological computers that only go around eating and pooping.

Im the one elevating this picture you have of them. Animals do a lot of "human things." This gets framed like this because people have this idea that they are the only ones that can possibly have all these behaviours.

All of this happened because of her desire to want children. This isnt out of the goodness of her heart.

This is all happening because what she wants.

Sorry but i dont want to be part of some one's sick fantasy.

Stalker is out to kill us because of "Lotus"

This is the whole point of this, this is all happening because of "Lotus."

And i think it time to stop following her fantasy. It's time to get back to the real world.

It's time to fix all of this and finish our job.

I have said plenty of time that Tenshin, Darvo, some Cephalon, and the Syndicate leaders can be our controllers.

And sorry but im not going to follow her simply because she didnt kill us.

If you two want to be fantasy family thats fine, but i am going to do my thing and she better not get in the way cause it she does that Sentient is going down!

Stalker is an A******, he doesn`t care about saving anything, just getting revenge for his masters. Betraying Lotus is not going to stop him as he already realises we don`t have memory of the event but wants to kill us anyway. And you are suggesting that Stalker is mad at a Lotus who was working with the Sentients at the time. Any grudge he may hold with Lotus over that is obsolete as she is trying to help society now. Stalker does not care about helping society though.

In any case, Lotus` maternal instincts for the Tenno aren`t stopping her from helping colonies, I say its a small issue.

[motorfirebox]

Said this so many times, we are discussing original Grineer. Dont know why you keep bringing current level Grineer. Why is this an issue?

I'm talking about the original Grineer. Don't know why you keep assuming I'm not.

Though while we're on the topic, there's absolutely nothing to indicate that the Grineer of today are inherently more intelligent than the Orokin Grineer. In fact, due to genetic decay, odds are they ought to be dumber. The assumption that modem Grineer are smarter is deeply flawed.

Edited September 24, 2015 by motorfirebox

[arch111]

You are talking avanced genetics here. The orokin made the kubrow, the forrest on Earth. They made the warframes and infested weapons.

They were MASTER engineers.

Today, we can descide gender and Appearance on a baby. Fairly sure many markers for illnesses and good traits have been found.

Apply that a millennia from now and genetics is more or less magic.

[Mak_Gohae]

To be.clear.

Read the lore. The Orokin were elitists who believed they were the best of humanity, and ALL others meant to serve them and know their place.

They are an unpleasent echo of us in our worst and most brilliant.

They were the arostocrats, the Ceasar the Pharao the nobles who no longer saw human value.

They created life yes, but not free life.

What they built and knew is worthy of admiration and awe.

But they built their golden empire on the bones of their people.

 

The US calls it's president "The leader of the free world."

All governments think they know what's best for the people.

This is standard.

 

Look, honestly we still have very little information on the Orokin. From what snippets we have directly, we know this: The Orokin were dogmatic, had very extreme tools that in no way were probably required, and were probably not too concerned over individual lives.

 

Where are you getting the idea that they had "extreme tools" that were not needed and didnt care about lives?

 

The Orokin most certainly had robotics at least as advanced as MOAs, likely more so, and Cephalon tech was also likely much more capable during the time of the empire.

 

From what we know it looks like the MOA was invented after the war ended.

We actually know almost nothing about how advanced they were. Specially since the Sentient took all that over and the Orokin had to go zero-tech.

 

 

Regardless of anything else, the Orokin weren't pleasant people. Those in higher positions were very much dismissive of those below them from what we know.

 

Because current government all listen intently to what everyone below them has to say.

 

Just because something is bred and used as a tool, doesn't mean it's still a little unpleasant, at least, in modern society, this is true of both clones and animals.

 

That's what i have been saying. If you are going to call them evil for thing we are doing currently, think about that for a second.

 

Judging from Orokin society, they were extremely dismissive of most things though, so undoubtly, they would see little issue with something like the grineer. I mean, there were Lorists as well as grineer, and it's whether you view them as human can come into play, after all, the ones mentioned in the synthisis article are noted to be cloned. Simmilarliy, the elitism of the "Orokin" is noted here as well

 

They let the sentient program, apparently be created. So they didnt ignore everything brought up.

 

As I noted, you're right, in regards to the grineer, the Orokin viewed them exactly as that, a tool. There's not much evidence to the contrary however, that they didn't view "civillians" as a tool either, very much so considering all we see in snippets are either higher ups or military personnel. There's very little information about what civillian life in the Empire was like, but judging from what we see, and depending on what the "7 principles" are, it's not very likely that it wasn't at least, at some level, dystopian, if order maintaining (Judging from what it is though, it's close to reasearch guidelines, though viewed a bit more religiously).

 

Rules, everyone has rules. We need to see the rules before we start calling things dystopian.

 

 

Simmilarliy, at some level, Natah's job to destroy the Orokin empire probably played a large bit into why the leadership was killed, after all, the sentients would want revenge against the Orokin empire. Even if that weren't the case, much of Orokin society was likely the same, following the same dogmatic principles, same in culture. Just switching the leadership would've resulted in no net effect. A new council would have been set up and the same mistakes they had made in the past would have likely happened again. Tenno aren't exactly the best diplomatic tool outside of just killing things. And using the tenno to enforce the new "leaders" might not turn out so well, hell, even having new leaders enstated might not have turned out well either.

 

We dont even know why the Sentients came back to kill the Orokin or what their plan was because "Lotus" screwed it up and doesnt want to talk AKA DE hasn't written it yet.

 

I mean, it really mostly comes down to whether Ordis is willing to abandon the lotus. The ship and orbiter are pretty much vital parts of tenno operations, and it's likely that very few factions outside of the major 3 have the resources to provide a ship and gear housing of matching quality. Clan dojo's could represent Tenno construction, but on the other hand, the actual construction of them may actually be handled by the lotus faction as a whole, and the resources provided by the tenno in their construction.

 

How the hell does "Lotus" has resources is a question asked for a long time. "Lotus must control some territory.

We are ninja so i guess some one is paying the "Lotus" to send us to do all these missions?

 

This still is a weird part of the game story as you open up the solar system. It appears that the "Lotus" is sending us to do all these missions because she wants to. She is he one screwing up the system for "balance."

 

I'm doubtful that the Lotus would really distrupt you if you went off and did your own thing, as long as you didn't go round hunting tenno on operations or mass slaughtering civillians. If they somehow let you, joining the corpus or Grineer would probably both be bad ideas as well. I mean, when you do work for darvo, the Lotus doesn't really bother much in terms of worrying. More Darvo would be nice, but I'm not sure he has the resources to upkeep a huge stable of tenno. Tenshin/Simaris don't seem to have much in the form of influence resources, so they might not be able to provide a simmilar service. Same thing with the Syndicates. They have resources, but whether they have enough to upkeep potential tenno operations is questionable.

 

Like i said above, given that there is no explanation how "Lotus" gets resources, i would hardly call this an issue for everyone else.

 

[Leavith]

@Mak

Just want to clear something i am referring to the original grineer we have actual data of some of them on the lancer sys of one them fighting the way he thinks in no way seems impair if anything it looks more like he is just living his life doing the same thing over and over again which is what he does until the encounter with the creature and with the awareness on how his tool work he applied the same logic to using it on the creature to kill it off.

In all actuality we have been able to see that the Grineer use mutation and mechanics to increase their power.

Just clearing it up the actaul grineer life spam is probably lower then the original grineer but thanks to technology they can augment themselves to live longer.

The original grineer was more likely to be smarter and have more developed brain while the lore may not say this we can compare to simple logic sure the Orokin made the grineer but in no way could the grineer process themselves as the orokin process them or they would have been able to cure themselves a long time ago.In the same fashion you have to see the grineer as an Ant colony they dig for resources to use for the queen and the empire the empire helps produce more grineer in the likeness of themselves as the colony direct the grineer .You have to understand eviscerator sys and the lancer sys gives us example of grineer who would do as everyday people would do.If you knew you were gonna probably die you would probably kill the person who would kill you.If you had an everyday job that proided you with information on using tools you would use this tools for other work apart from the work your assign to do this helps us see that the grineer were not so much programmed as they were ignorant.With just a simple statement how do i know the grineer saw themselves as slaves....Well i am not a grineer i wouldn't know but if you put yourself in their shoes you can easily understand how the original grineer must have saw themselves as slaves when seeing how the empire treated them.They might not have know hey we are slaves but they know hey we are treated as dogs expected to do as they order or we would be kill and die as dogs which is basically the negative feeling of being a slave.

AS FOR THE LOTUS

if the lotus had the power to kill us but didn;t cause she had momma issue i am cool with that The lotus Yes she was evil and yes we don't know much about her but as you can understand we cannot be inferring things about her still being evil all her action point that she cares cause she see us as her child.In all honesty i would have worked with the orokin for the sake of being loyal to the person who gave me power so i could earn more power.But we killed them tuff luck now the Stalker wants to kill us which is also true .EVEN TELLING THE STALKER ABOUT LOTUS ISN"T GONNA STOP HIM FROM NOT KILLING US.We killed them blood for blood lotus blood is not enough to satisfy the lost of a race.

[Mak_Gohae]

I find myself...uncomfortable...with the idea that anyone thinks its okay to find, design or create living, thinking, reasoning beings, and then consign them to slavery. That is a...mildly disturbing...line of reasoning, to be honest. Especially since the only justification I have read herein is 'I think they were designed to serve.' 

 

Please think carefully about your reasoning there. I find it difficult to believe anyone could really be okay with that line of thought...

 

Humans have been doing this to animals for thousands of years.

That's the reasoning being used here.

This has been a norm for almost as long as humans have been around.

Right now most people on the planet are okay with this line of thought.

 

Only people that are called extremists now are against this kind of thought.

 

You do need to say that, because that's what you've been claiming for like ten pages now.

 

I need to stated that there's a difference in thousands of years of fictional advancement?

That should be a given in this conversation.

 

You've even said that considering the Grineer to be intelligent had moral implications for how we treat animals today.

 

I didnt say it had moral implications, im comparing to current times and how animals are used.

 

What you've shown is that some animals can perform a single moderately complex task under controlled conditions with constant instruction. You're showing a dog driving slowly on a closed track with their trainer in the passenger seat giving instruction. You need to show dogs driving to work every day on the freeway.

 

Remember the above statement of there being an obvious in present day to future genetically engineer creatures?

Im not saying that here's a dog and he is Grineer, im saying here is a current dog with no genetic advancement. Look at what he can do, it's not weird if they are genetically advance we can have a Grineer-like creature.

 

The Orokin Grineer were capable of following complex plans involving high technology without direct supervision. Apes using sign language isn't remotely on the same level.

 

Pretty sure manual labor, even in the future, does not need complex plans with high-tech stuff.

And, btw, there is always a supervisor.

[Urlan]

From what we read of the Orokin society so far, they seemed to be heavily against the concept of free will, or Sentience. Caste systems for everyone to follow; disintegrating people for encouraging or creating others with free will; ordering citizens into non-family units and then threatening these groups with death if members did something they didn't like; enslaving and creating workers and soldiers for fighting and killing with possible built in timelimits. No matter how one looks at it, the Orokin Elite were not nice folk.

 

I doubt the infested were out of control during the time of the Orokin Empire, I believe that one would only use such bioweapons, especially given the existance of the Sentients; if they could control it. That said, the Orokin Empire valued a lack of individuallity, apparent in the decorations and commonality of their creations seeming to lack facial features or removing them after the fact with Corrupted; it could stand to reason is that eventually the 'patient zero' of the infested creatures were the Orokin Elite themselves by the end of the war. We have seen that strong wills can excert influence over the infested if they are the start of a strain with Lephantis, Phorid, and Mutalist Alad V becoming something of a hive mind with the technocyte and original Patient Zero's personality merging or bleeding over. The rampage of the infested after the elimination of the Orokin Elite further suggests such a deveiopment as we have seen, without a strong pressence, the infested are little more than mindless tortured animal; attacking any non-infested in sight.

 

It is possible the Stalker is somewhat or even fully right about us executing the Orokin Elite but it is also possible that the Stalker does not know the why. He and the Corpus, and to an extent, Teshin seem to view it as a betrayal but sometimes the only way to save a body is to amputate a limb. If nothing else, the Orokin Elite seem like they were a rotten limb indeed.