Forma Needs To Be Removed As A Construction Material

[Zantestsuken]

You do realize you can already get forma as void key rewards, right?

Lol. This isn't the point. The point is that you don't pay for neural sensors. Yet.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Zantestsuken

[zagibu]

You misunderstand me. I don't think the situation is okay, far from it, I support the request to remove forma from dojo building. I was just not sure the dude knew about the fact you can get it already in void missions. His post implies he doesn't.

[Zantestsuken]

You misunderstand me. I don't think the situation is okay, far from it, I support the request to remove forma from dojo building. I was just not sure the dude knew about the fact you can get it already in void missions. His post implies he doesn't.

Sorry zagibu. I didn't think of that. It's just that, even in the current situation, farming forma for the dojo is giving them the right to change the principle wich was "farming is free and possible".

[HeatHunter]

You do realize you can already get forma as void key rewards, right?

 

and he meant that forma should be a real Drop, not that end of mission rng loot that DE restricted to be veeeeeeery rare...

[zagibu]

What you mean is it should have higher chances to be attained. Turning it into a very rare drop won't really help now, will it?

[Zantestsuken]

What you mean is it should have higher chances to be attained. Turning it into a very rare drop won't really help now, will it?

Yeah. If dojos required a component wich dropped on regular base in regular missions it'll be OK.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Zantestsuken

[Zantestsuken]

So we seem to have found a compromise. The question is, will our feedback be notified to the Devs?

[HeatHunter]

What you mean is it should have higher chances to be attained. Turning it into a very rare drop won't really help now, will it?

 

you should actually get a reason to kill something in the void missions.

 

Actually the groups I had all rushed through the missions (except extermination).

Having a material drop from the mob's inside the void, would actually encourage farming the new areas and get the most out of your keys.

Also this could mean you have a chance to get more than one BuildingMat. (even if the requirements for the buildings have to change, see material cost of research)

btw.: who says it has to be super rare? ;)

 

If you have the chance to actually farm the Building materials for the dojo by just finding the key it would be much better...

 

Currently you have a RNG chance for the Key and really little chance to find a Forma in the void so the chance to get what you want is really low...

As stated in another thread, there are people who made ~100 runs and did find 3 Forma...

this is ~ 1 Forma every 33 run in the void

taking this average you have to do 2475 runs to get the 75 Forma for the Built

 

PS: Keep in mind, this is an average if you do it alone! Not an actual correkt guaranteed value.

might happen that you need less or more runs...

 

assuming you do it with your clan and keep 4ppl on it you even have to do 619 runs...

so at the current droprates of Keys which I assume to be 5 in 10h of constantly playtime (again this is an average not a real value. Don't know if this a lucky drop or not)

this would be 1238h of playing or ~52 days of constantly playing with 4ppl (again due to RNG this can't be a real value)

 

And this is what I think is way too much...

Also this paywall is so unpredictable (due to RNG) that it's unrealistic to think ppl would farm for it...

 

EDIT:

added quot at the top of the post.

Edited May 27, 2013 by HeatHunter

[Zantestsuken]

Seems legit. Even though Void runs should be done for stuff wich is above the rare concept we thought until now. Crafting materials are now uncommon on this scale

[Hybridon]

You misunderstand me. I don't think the situation is okay, far from it, I support the request to remove forma from dojo building. I was just not sure the dude knew about the fact you can get it already in void missions. His post implies he doesn't.

 

I did 3 Void missions till now, with 3 out of the 5 keys I got, and obtained a Forma BP on one of them.

 

What I meant is leave Forma as rare as it is, and being a polarity slot changer, and only that.

 

Inside Void make a resource drop (atm nothing drops) and make that resource replace Forma inside the dojos. I think taking out Forma from the dojos build will only make the dojos easy to build, as its just farming ordinary resources, and that way sooner or later the community will be begging for more content as dojos are easy to build, ofc Im taking into consideration that if they lay down Forma, they will also lay down the prices so smaller clans can build the dojo.

 

You do realize you can already get forma as void key rewards, right?

 

Yes.

 

Farming for resources is the alternative to buy something, if you have to farm for doing another farm is a double farm. Next thing you'll see is thatin order to do something for free you'll have to farm bp of components wich are requested for the actual bp of the weapon. Farming 100k stuffsis already a gigantic, but fair, farming process. Putting even forma is a word that in my language can't be translated in english. But the short version is SCAM

 

No, having to sweat to go out on Void missions and then having to get resources there with a low drop rate, but fait enough for a group of 4 clan mates to get is, imho, fair enough for a f2p game. We already have to do sometimes 100 runs on bosses to get a warframe. Imagine if the resource proposed falls in amounts of 1, like a morphics or a module, if you go along with 3 other people from you're clan, then it would be 1 piece each would be gathering. At current costs of Forma for some dojo buildings, lets take a 15 cost section, that would be 15 pieces of this resource you would need. In 4 runs, if you only get 1 per run, you would complete that section, making a void run important to build the dojo, and also making the dojo have a bigger commitment towards the clan mates, and still be free. I would feel accomplished after building a section of my dojo, entirely free, knowing I had to truly sweat for it.

 

At the current moment, I prefer to hold on to my 2 Formas (1 from a Void run and 1 from a daily reward) and polarize one of my weapons than put it in a dojo section, and many other feel like that, but having a complete separate resource, as there is for the researches, would feel right, and make it not even easy or hard (or impossible to some atm).

 

Atm, if you take out Forma, you will make it easier and really no sense of accomplishment unless you have a small clan, and have to farm those high resource numbers they are asking for. If you leave Forma, its just leading people to complain and either not pay, and complain, or not pay and join a huge clan to get stuff for free.

 

Taking out Forma and adding a hard resource, yet free and not impossible to get, that is, making that in each Void run you get at least 1, will make it a good overall formula, and still keep in a way for devs to get money, yet without a big feeling of ripping, and yes that whoever pays is because he isnt patient enough to farm whats needed.

 

and he meant that forma should be a real Drop, not that end of mission rng loot that DE restricted to be veeeeeeery rare...

 

Yep, just not being Forma, read above, I tried to explain better. =)

[Zantestsuken]

I did 3 Void missions till now, with 3 out of the 5 keys I got, and obtained a Forma BP on one of them.

 

What I meant is leave Forma as rare as it is, and being a polarity slot changer, and only that.

 

Inside Void make a resource drop (atm nothing drops) and make that resource replace Forma inside the dojos. I think taking out Forma from the dojos build will only make the dojos easy to build, as its just farming ordinary resources, and that way sooner or later the community will be begging for more content as dojos are easy to build, ofc Im taking into consideration that if they lay down Forma, they will also lay down the prices so smaller clans can build the dojo.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

No, having to sweat to go out on Void missions and then having to get resources there with a low drop rate, but fait enough for a group of 4 clan mates to get is, imho, fair enough for a f2p game. We already have to do sometimes 100 runs on bosses to get a warframe. Imagine if the resource proposed falls in amounts of 1, like a morphics or a module, if you go along with 3 other people from you're clan, then it would be 1 piece each would be gathering. At current costs of Forma for some dojo buildings, lets take a 15 cost section, that would be 15 pieces of this resource you would need. In 4 runs, if you only get 1 per run, you would complete that section, making a void run important to build the dojo, and also making the dojo have a bigger commitment towards the clan mates, and still be free. I would feel accomplished after building a section of my dojo, entirely free, knowing I had to truly sweat for it.

 

At the current moment, I prefer to hold on to my 2 Formas (1 from a Void run and 1 from a daily reward) and polarize one of my weapons than put it in a dojo section, and many other feel like that, but having a complete separate resource, as there is for the researches, would feel right, and make it not even easy or hard (or impossible to some atm).

 

Atm, if you take out Forma, you will make it easier and really no sense of accomplishment unless you have a small clan, and have to farm those high resource numbers they are asking for. If you leave Forma, its just leading people to complain and either not pay, and complain, or not pay and join a huge clan to get stuff for free.

 

Taking out Forma and adding a hard resource, yet free and not impossible to get, that is, making that in each Void run you get at least 1, will make it a good overall formula, and still keep in a way for devs to get money, yet without a big feeling of ripping, and yes that whoever pays is because he isnt patient enough to farm whats needed.

 

 

Yep, just not being Forma, read above, I tried to explain better. =)

If you're okay in farming constantly, aside from farming your own frames and weapons is your choice. Disagree but you made your point.

In the end I played all friday and saturday. Did 7 ?alerts and +80 raid. Got 1 key from a random raid. So if I had to farm something in the void it will be endless.

[Hybridon]

You already have to go to the Void to farm the Prime components, you would get that resource in the process without even noticing. I got some resources in high quantities because of my eternal boss runs, like System Module farming for Loki, and Morphics, till some time ago, when farming Mag on Mars.

 

Adding that resource would only be something simple to get, yet making the fulfillment of a dojo not a easy concept, bringing you into the game. Plus my best match so far was inside the Void, Id gladly go back there to farm resources if I get that heroic battle fight again, it was just insane and a one-time experience, hope to fulfill it again.

[Zantestsuken]

You know that void keys burn themselves in the process? 1 key = 1 run

[Timmuk]

Have plat as an option to rush the build....S#&$ have a plant only cost for that hallway!!!....drop all the mats or drop 250 plat........but dont have forma on the cost of a hallway!!!

 

 

and 250 plat should be plenty for a room from DEs point of view...if they are willing to sell a full frame with reactor for 250 plat selling a hallway that a clan will need 3-5 of is good money and people will pay it

[Hybridon]

@Zantestsuken (forgot to quote)

 

Yes, if you farm them as a clan you get 4 keys, that equals 4 runs.

 

I got 5 keys since Void Keys where released, all of them by farming on defense missions. Ive used 3 along with my small clan, and we still have 2 of mine and 4 from my brother.

 

My clan is a 3 people clan, we play along since we got knowledge of the game on U7, and if I find any other friend that plays will work on to get it to a bigger clan, yet just friends.

 

So by doing what I said small clans are possible, and the farming wouldnt be a hassle, as with the total 9 runs my clan would have (5 of my keys and 4 from my brother), being a 3 member clan, would get us a total of 27 of the rare component I said.

 

Meaning again, building the dojo wouldnt be hard and would feel as if I accomplished something, still leaving it possible for people to burn there resources on Keys and Forma for other purposes, or even to rush dojo stuff. They could simply convert the dojo rooms into platinum values and would get much more money from people willing to pay for convenience, and not for RNG in Void Keys, or Forma. Just my opion ofc.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Hybridon

[Zantestsuken]

@Zantestsuken (forgot to quote)

 

Yes, if you farm them as a clan you get 4 keys, that equals 4 runs.

 

I got 5 keys since Void Keys where released, all of them by farming on defense missions. Ive used 3 along with my small clan, and we still have 2 of mine and 4 from my brother.

 

My clan is a 3 people clan, we play along since we got knowledge of the game on U7, and if I find any other friend that plays will work on to get it to a bigger clan, yet just friends.

 

So by doing what I said small clans are possible, and the farming wouldnt be a hassle, as with the total 9 runs my clan would have (5 of my keys and 4 from my brother), being a 3 member clan, would get us a total of 27 of the rare component I said.

 

Meaning again, building the dojo wouldnt be hard and would feel as if I accomplished something, still leaving it possible for people to burn there resources on Keys and Forma for other purposes, or even to rush dojo stuff. They could simply convert the dojo rooms into platinum values and would get much more money from people willing to pay for convenience, and not for RNG in Void Keys, or Forma. Just my opion ofc.

My point, to begin with, was that you should build with resources gathered without paying. Putting some resources aside from forma in the dojo will do the trick. The message i received is that in the near future you will pay platinum for resources. And I fear it will if we don't stand up.

[Hybridon]

My point, to begin with, was that you should build with resources gathered without paying. Putting some resources aside from forma in the dojo will do the trick. The message i received is that in the near future you will pay platinum for resources. And I fear it will if we don't stand up.

 

Thats what my suggestion is all about. You keep the free stuff hard, but obtainable, as is intended to make the market work for the devs. We all know that to keep up with game servers, paychecks, machinery, etc they need to have ways to get money for the game.

 

Yet making stuff too easy will not accomplish that, they need something that at the same time is obtainable by hard work, yet not impossible as it is now. Forma being a resource as hard as is now practically killed any chance for small clans. I do realize a bit now that the idea behind big clans, even though you wont run missions along with 99% of the members, is to create dueling rooms and getting random people to duel and test there skills, and as its just alfa, that means they may have intentions over that, thus why I am not badmouthing anything yet as we have a 90min livestream coming up on wednesday, and Im sure this problem will be discussed along with prices, small clan issues, Forma use, and many other issues. Correct me if Im wrong, but all along all the other updates and hotfixes the devs have listened to our complaints and as far as Ive seen, they are trying to fix as much as its possible, and get everything in a good balance to make the game more entertaining and still get people to pay. The update came out on friday and hundreds are criticizing.

 

I agree 100% we have to stand up now, and just like this thread is, in a good balanced discussion bringing up ideas, in a none messy and abusive way. If they start charging for even more things, they will lose players, me including. By far my stand up was too not buy Forma, I have no problem buying catalysts, slots, Im a collector, I want all the frames, and I want all the guns Ive enjoyed using, even if I wont ever use them again. So I payed, and I felt well paying, for a game Ive been involved for 200hrs+, that excluding the time I spend going to the wiki, coming on to forums, checking out my alerts gadget, or making up tactics when Im bored at work, thats because the game got me involved in such a way that I havent been for years. Many outstanding games have been launched in all kinds of genre, from sports (FIFA, PES, etc) to shooting (CoD, BF, etc), yet I havent seen a great mix of companionship, gunning and a different style (ninja sci-fi) in so much time, that Ive been mind blown by this game, and when I saw the advertising on steam, I didn't even give it a chance until I saw my brother playing. That all together makes me think that makin dojos difficult, but not profit wise only, is a good solution as to keep up there paycheck, give us some end gaming difficulty, yet not the end game itself content yet, and would make me, along with hundreds of others, pleased to build a dojo, spend time ingame killing and collecting resources, with lots of pleasure, as thats what I seek in a game under these presets, a motivation to continue playing after I have all the collectible items.

 

I want to continue doing missions with my friends, killing stuff and as a side quest be leveling up my weapons to use Forma and get them even stronger. I was like of the roof when I entered the Void III mission and had to revive, and be revived, several times even though I had a reactor on my Hek, on my character, and my clan also had. It was so thrilling, and makes me want to farm for another chance inside that Void III mission. It even made me inclined to buy keys to go inside it, and maybe thats where the Devs could have again used a better opening to get money out of us for convenience, and not as a obligation.

 

I personally have no problem if they fix the RNG and I slowly enter Voids to get the resource I spoke about and farmed slowly the components for my prime weapons. If I complete 1-2 rooms a week with my clan that would be lovely, slowly building up our dojo, slowly getting the stuff I need and getting me involved.

 

At the moment all we have are unreal prices for small clans, over the top prices using Forma, unrealistic drop rates, RNG severe problems and a bunch of unhappy Teeno ready to leave the game unless this problem gets fixed up quickly.

 

I PMed Rebecca in a attempt to get her to see this thread, it became already a Hot Thread, and from all the ones addressing this problem, it seems the one that has been having the best ideas and trying to get a good solution. I think, personally, only removing the Forma isn't the real solution, Id suggest you gather up the ideas on you're first post so that we have a general discussion and find out the best ways to fulfill our demands and that hopefully these get seen on livestream 6, and the more solutions we come up with, bigger are the chances that the devs use one and fix up this major mistake inside such a lovely update. I truely loved the new tiles, enemies and weapons, just think they have to do minor tweaks to the RNG, big tweaks to the dojo prices and the forma issue, and some tweaks to difficulty so that we can have the same intense experience as on Void III missions, maybe witha whole system with those level 90 grinner heavy units, that would be the perfect way, yet this is already going off topic.

[taiiat]

 

 

The farm is needed for the longevity of the game.

farming doesn't make a game. fun does. games entirely supported by farming strangle themselves within a year, two at most. i've seen it myself. people that would always farm item x gets bored and leaves, and that causes person that farmed item r to leave, and that causes person that farmed item a to leave, it just snowballs. 

fun. fun. it's what games are for. it's the most important thing about a game. if you can have fun playing it, and have a reason to be playing it, then you will play it. the reasons don't need to be huge and long, just something there. but fun. fun. i'll keep pounding this word into the heads of people across every game until they realize games exist to be fun. 

[Zantestsuken]

@Hybridon thanks for all the work you've put. I will not quote your post because it will spam the thread, but I appreciate that finally feedback is as it's supposed to be.

[OrokinNoob]

I think some elements of Forma being used could be changed. The note about connectors and elevators, I do think forma should be strictly used for the major projects, like the Oracle, Reactors and labs.

 

But this is a hard argument to make just as the Small Clan vs Big Clans debate is. On one hand I feel you guys about forma being a consistent need in dojos, but on the other hand, there is nothing in game that makes clans "HAVE" to build a dojo.

 

If it was Player v Player, those who got their hands on unique or special weapons would be at an advantage, but its PvE, so there is really nothing that can stopping any player from beating every kind of enemy or boss.

 

I wish there was a better mechanic for players to have clans merge or incorporate under larger clans to get the trickle down resources, but as long as DE cares about the player base, they will go with what we want. If small clans want change and the bigger clans say its fine, DE can only find a balance.

 

The game doesn't need anything taken away yet, this all is just a testing phase. So just hang in there and keep playing the game.

[Hybridon]

@Hybridon thanks for all the work you've put. I will not quote your post because it will spam the thread, but I appreciate that finally feedback is as it's supposed to be.

 

No problem, Im here to stand along with you and other fellow Teenos for a more balanced system.

 

The thing that I mostly liked in you're first post is that you state that cheating isn't the solution for the Forma problem, and thats a true approach to the problem, if we cheat, then we aren't helping solve the problem and we are actually just helping the problem get out of control by using such cheats to get around the system, while we actually get the system to seem as if its working, and it really isn't.

 

Just hope Rebecca or any other DE reads this and brings these issues up inside there company or in the livestream at the least, showing us there true feelings about it all, there purposes, solutions (or not), towards the game and the community. <3

[Zantestsuken]

I think some elements of Forma being used could be changed. The note about connectors and elevators, I do think forma should be strictly used for the major projects, like the Oracle, Reactors and labs.

 

But this is a hard argument to make just as the Small Clan vs Big Clans debate is. On one hand I feel you guys about forma being a consistent need in dojos, but on the other hand, there is nothing in game that makes clans "HAVE" to build a dojo.

 

If it was Player v Player, those who got their hands on unique or special weapons would be at an advantage, but its PvE, so there is really nothing that can stopping any player from beating every kind of enemy or boss.

 

I wish there was a better mechanic for players to have clans merge or incorporate under larger clans to get the trickle down resources, but as long as DE cares about the player base, they will go with what we want. If small clans want change and the bigger clans say its fine, DE can only find a balance.

 

The game doesn't need anything taken away yet, this all is just a testing phase. So just hang in there and keep playing the game.

 

The point isn't being better or not. As a construction material, Forma makes crafting harder. Imo I think Dojo's should require something else, aside from Forma.

[Zantestsuken]

No problem, Im here to stand along with you and other fellow Teenos for a more balanced system.

 

The thing that I mostly liked in you're first post is that you state that cheating isn't the solution for the Forma problem, and thats a true approach to the problem, if we cheat, then we aren't helping solve the problem and we are actually just helping the problem get out of control by using such cheats to get around the system, while we actually get the system to seem as if its working, and it really isn't.

 

Just hope Rebecca or any other DE reads this and brings these issues up inside there company or in the livestream at the least, showing us there true feelings about it all, there purposes, solutions (or not), towards the game and the community. <3

 

The edit about cheating was mandatory. It's not that cheating will help remove forma from dojos. After all, even being Alpha or Beta, or whatsoever, Forma for weapons upgrading is legit. But imo it always pleased me how the foundry system required no money (even though I rushed something with platinum. Lol). Crafting, was the balance between f2p and customers. I even asked player to buy the Hunter pack as it was a one time thing, because with that much platinum and a little time you would have gotten ALL the frames, ALL the weapon and ALL the potatoes you needed. Plus you helped DE. This although changed in my head when I saw that Dojos required Forma and it was on sale or you should have bought Void Keys hoping to get one.

So, AGAIN, I'm ok with all the Update 8. It's well done and adds more content. But putting Forma in the Dojo is a move for profit, but not the clean profit they done so far.

[DSMK2]

I think DE needs to treat forma as an in-universe miracle material as opposed to a construction material. After all it's a piece of functional Orokin technology that has the capability to raise the tech level of whatever it is used on. The current use for it in dojo construction downplays that description; aside from room creation, once the forma is contributed/used, its benefits that are felt in polarizing weapons aren't matched, they just become another form of  material for the dojo.

 

Take it out of being a construction material (and possibly cutting resource costs) but make it a way to gradually upgrade and progress dojo elements.

 

When I mean miracle material, I mean as a way to unlock clan dojo room perks by somehow improving room equipment; it's already rewarding for players who want to upgrade their hard earned max rank gear, but this way it'll be rewarding for those who desire to contribute to the clan. Forma could be used to rank specific room perks, akin to the current mod system.

 

Example idea(s):

Adding forma to research room(s)

• Used to rank up research time reduction
  • Rank 1 [2x Forma]: research time decreased by 10%
  • Rank 2 [4x Forma]: research time decreased by 20%
  • Rank 3 [8x Forma]: research time decreased by 30%
  • Etc.
• Unlock new branches of related technology to research

Adding forma to oracle room(s)

• Decrease construction time in the foundry
• Reduce foundry material costs by rank
• Enables ability to convert materials at various ranks of efficiency
  • Rank 1 [2x Forma]: conversion for each item has a 50% chance of successfully converting
  • Rank 2 [4x Forma]: conversion for each item has a 60% chance of successfully converting
  • Etc.

With the forma cost removed, I can see small clans getting their dojo layouts complete, then working to gather (or buying) forma to upgrade their functional rooms. Using forma for room upgrades adds further depth to dojo progression; it's not just building rooms, getting the materials and constructing them is the 'easy' part, but upgrading them will be tougher, longer, but more rewarding for the clan overall.

Edited May 28, 2013 by DSMK2

[Zantestsuken]

DSMK2, nice idea! Really good. This never occured to me. This can actually justify Forma in a Dojo. It's clever and it gets altogether with me denying it from actual constructions.