Ember Passive, Or The Return Of Overheat

[akira_him]

well said, nothing to add but +1

[(PSN)JiggaJazz]

If we wanted give this passive to nova everyone would say lol no, why? Because nova is good.

Why not make ember good to where she doesn't require such a powerful passive?

If you did give her that passive, people still would rarely use her and it would do nothing for her abilities.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

OMG, you´re on fire (heh) , that must be one of the best suggestions I´ve ever read for ember; I also like the fact how your initial idea made you then think of fire blast leading to another great idea that compliments the first while making that flashy yet useless ability actually useful and meaningful. All of my upvotes to you sir!

[akira_him]

If we wanted give this passive to nova everyone would say lol no, why? Because nova is good.

Why not make ember good to where she doesn't require such a powerful passive?

If you did give her that passive, people still would rarely use her and it would do nothing for her abilities.

Turn on World on Fire, permanent overheat if we have this passive

[(PSN)MrDemigod81]

Yes ember is awesome just need a little bit more I get so tired of not getting invited to missions because I refused to change her that's really bad lol

Edited October 21, 2015 by (PS4)BIGHEBREW

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

YES OP YES

[Hypernaut1]

Why do people say fireblast is bad? Its a knockback skill that causes damage, castable in air and leaves behind a ring of fire that damages enemies.

[Roboplus]

Fire Blast's two portions don't work properly together in terms of damage. The knockback from the wall pushes enemies away from the ring on the ground. For most enemies to have advanced far enough to reach the ring, they probably avoided the wall.

 

It could be useful in terms of area denial, but there's no pay off for enemies who enter the ring because the damage is so light. When enemies use it against us, it's hard to see through and our own sense of self-preservation makes us want to seek cover to avoid it (though there are alternatives). Enemies can shoot through our wall and pay no heed to the approaching flames, which will do minimal damage even if it hits them.

 

The wall isn't modifiable by range and has a travel time. With as little as 125% range, Accelerant will travel just as far and does so instantly. The knockdown from the wall will last slightly longer, but also costs 25 more energy to use. Accelerant's stun comes with a damage modifier, which boosts heat damage upon all targets for several seconds. In practice, Accelerant will be cheaper, have a longer range, come out faster, and have a much greater impact upon a combat scenario.

 

All of this was true even before the World on Fire change. Now Accelerant is even more valuable because you'll be boosting the damage of your 4 (which you will likely have active at all times) before ever firing a shot. Because World on Fire's status chance is modifiable by power strength, she can more reliably lockdown an area with heat procs without even using Accelerant or Fire Blast. Ranged builds that sacrifice power strength (and its increased status) can equip Firequake for greater, faster, cheaper, and more reliable status than Fire Blast is capable of in every situation (other than large groups of enemies spawning right next to you and within LoS). Accelerant at least still has a range advantage.

 

This passive would allow the damage portions of Fire Blast to stand alone, provided you've built up Overheat.

[TwiceDead]

No.

 

To powerful of a passive, giving a frame a form of innate damage reduction that is not tied to armor is an asinine suggestion to make, and a caster frame no less who is supposed to excell in damage, where the entire point is that the trade-off for power is lowered defense. 

The problem with Overheat was that is gave players a 95% damage reduction to everything. People bring up shatter shield, to this argument, but they are fundamentally different. Shatter Shield only defends your shields, once they are down you go down, it also doesn't give you any defense against melee units, Embers Overheat provided an overall 95% damage reduction to whatever may be in your way, that and it didn't fit Embers entire theme of being a glass-cannon caster-damage frame. 

 

Bringing it back? Sure.

As strong as it was? F*** no.

As a passive? Hell No! 

 

Somebody already mentioned this, but passives should be minor improvements to a frames theme, something that complements their shtick, not something that makes the frame. 

 

Fireblast needs some help though, but shoving it into a passive is not the answer IMO. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by TwiceDead

[Arcira]

So what if Overheat came back as a passive that grew stronger as Ember used more energy? The act of using her powers to literally heat up (to a limit). Damaging enemies that approached and offering some (non-modifiable) damage resistance. Gradually cooling down if you stop. That'd be nice, right?

 

The passive could get stronger depending on how many burning enemies are around her, rather than energy used.

Fireblast can also proc the passive while near the ring and max when inside.

In fact everything that causes heat should empower the passive.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Arcira

[rawr1254]

How about fire blasts ring scales with range mods and with str gives a chance to nullify bullets into the area with a cap of 75%? So 10/20/30/40% chance to melt bullets all bullets that make it through have reduced dmg by 20/30/40/50% scalling with str again to 75% And with this increase the duration of fire blast so say 30secs base just like accelerant or give it a snow globe treatment giving it x dmg possible to be absorbed and do away with the duration

[Roboplus]

The problem with Overheat was that is gave players a 95% damage reduction to everything. People bring up shatter shield, to this argument, but they are fundamentally different. Shatter Shield only defends your shields, once they are down you go down, it also doesn't give you any defense against melee units, Embers Overheat provided an overall 95% damage reduction to whatever may be in your way, that and it didn't fit Embers entire theme of being a glass-cannon caster-damage frame.

 

So what if Overheat came back as a passive that grew stronger as Ember used more energy? The act of using her powers to literally heat up (to a limit). Damaging enemies that approached and offering some (non-modifiable) damage resistance. Gradually cooling down if you stop. That'd be nice, right?

 

For continued discussion, the values I've been throwing around are:

 

10% damage resist/50 contact heat damage for every 100 energy spent, up to 40% resist/200 heat.

 

?

Edited October 23, 2015 by Roboplus

[RealPandemonium]

Fireblast would be fine if the wave started outside of the fire ring.

 

I think that Ember's passive should be some incentive to not have WoF on all the time, since it's pretty much always on now.  

[(PSN)Lucas11212]

You have my +1!

[Edermask_]

No.

 

To powerful of a passive, giving a frame a form of innate damage reduction that is not tied to armor is an asinine suggestion to make, and a caster frame no less who is supposed to excell in damage, where the entire point is that the trade-off for power is lowered defense. 

The problem with Overheat was that is gave players a 95% damage reduction to everything. People bring up shatter shield, to this argument, but they are fundamentally different. Shatter Shield only defends your shields, once they are down you go down, it also doesn't give you any defense against melee units, Embers Overheat provided an overall 95% damage reduction to whatever may be in your way, that and it didn't fit Embers entire theme of being a glass-cannon caster-damage frame. 

 

Bringing it back? Sure.

As strong as it was? F*** no.

As a passive? Hell No! 

 

Somebody already mentioned this, but passives should be minor improvements to a frames theme, something that complements their shtick, not something that makes the frame. 

 

Fireblast needs some help though, but shoving it into a passive is not the answer IMO. 

Well, as a passive with a maximum of 40% damage reduction it would be fine since the damage reduction would not be affected by power strength. Also, shatter shield does not only defend your shield. In the end, it's all a matter of opinion but honestly it is far from broken considering it would barely amount to the base armor of an atlas in terms of effective hp. The heat damage component of the passive is strong but, you still need to ramp it.

[LilLemay]

Thats actually.. a really good idea man, rock on

[Mak_Gohae]

Building up Overheat bonuses by casting spells would've been a good idea before her armor boost.

Now there isnt really a point because it will result in the issue that had Overheat taken away, getting too much dmg resistance.

[Edermask_]

Building up Overheat bonuses by casting spells would've been a good idea before her armor boost.

Now there isnt really a point because it will result in the issue that had Overheat taken away, getting too much dmg resistance.

What is too much resistance? Atlas with his armor and a steel fiber alone can easily achieve 75% damage reduction and can easily dish out 100k++ with landslide. Also right now whit her armor and a max vitality mod she can only achieve about 1040 effective hp (1340 with shields). Add 40% damage reduction to that and we are still far from the tank realm. Tanky warframes like chroma can achieve 25k to 65k++ effective hp. With a regular damage build (power str mods+vitality) ember would not reach beyond 3k effective hp. The old overheat could achieve similar numbers to chroma without having to take damage for ramping vex. It is a powerful passive, but as we can see with this new passive, its that it would not be even close to the old overheat or any of the top defensive abilities for that matter. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by ExperienceFear

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

I want see ember usefull and powerfull as frost or excalibur , she need a complete rework as excalibur , change skills and status, in my opnion this constant changes in chars for "balance" s stupid , some chars have propose more offensive , others defensives, stealth, taticals , support... With complete differents status , is impossible have this supposed balance. Impossible compare rhino with zephyr per ex. 

Lot crybabies in forum write claiming for nerf , but lots chars are very strong in low and middle  enemies lvl, ember have world on fire ruined becouse are "op ", but try use ember against mob lvl 200 , useless , your attacks became  weak and your defense sux. I want use my ember as i use my frost, excalibur , mag, banshee, trinity, saryn... in low or high lvls missions . Maybe a min-max conclave requirement will be cool in all maps , skills became op by lvl of mods .

[RealPandemonium]

I want see ember usefull and powerfull as frost or excalibur , she need a complete rework as excalibur , change skills and status, in my opnion this constant changes in chars for "balance" s stupid , some chars have propose more offensive , others defensives, stealth, taticals , support... With complete differents status , is impossible have this supposed balance. Impossible compare rhino with zephyr per ex. 

Lot crybabies in forum write claiming for nerf , but lots chars are very strong in low and middle  enemies lvl, ember have world on fire ruined becouse are "op ", but try use ember against mob lvl 200 , useless , your attacks became  weak and your defense sux. I want use my ember as i use my frost, excalibur , mag, banshee, trinity, saryn... in low or high lvls missions . Maybe a min-max conclave requirement will be cool in all maps , skills became op by lvl of mods .

Level 200 mobs are way beyond the scope of balance and Ember is actually alright against them as long as armor scaling and Eximus BS aren't a factor.  Giving frames 150k damage spammable god-nukes isn't a good idea, and neither is having the potential to disable all enemies indefinitely.  These are crutches that people rely upon and then complain that there's no challenge in the game.  We can have challenge in the game by limiting player power and adjusting enemies to a reasonable standard based on that.  There's nothing fun about trivializing all enemies by totally disabling them or one-shotting them forever.  

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Tell me what game with lvl structure , low lvls have same dmg than maxed chars or high lvls dont give absurd dmg in low lvl maps? Is surreal think different , is impossible , the problem s the mobs not chars or weapons , look how difficult became void after nullifyers, or derelict with lots ancients , but sometimes a guy say "sniiif sniiif you kill all , i cant kill anything "  , when i say for baby send me your build ... Is a tragedy , wrong builds , bad lvl mods ... I restart mission with same baby char but full upgraded and kill then all too . Whats wrong ? Me ? Sry if i spend my time lvling or play for more time 

[Roboplus]

What is too much resistance? Atlas with his armor and a steel fiber alone can easily achieve 75% damage reduction and can easily dish out 100k++ with landslide. Also right now whit her armor and a max vitality mod she can only achieve about 1040 effective hp (1340 with shields). Add 40% damage reduction to that and we are still far from the tank realm. Tanky warframes like chroma can achieve 25k to 65k++ effective hp. With a regular damage build (power str mods+vitality) ember would not reach beyond 3k effective hp. The old overheat could achieve similar numbers to chroma without having to take damage for ramping vex. It is a powerful passive, but as we can see with this new passive, its that it would not be even close to the old overheat or any of the top defensive abilities for that matter. 

And this is the point. If Overheat just came back as a power, it would have to be modifiable by power strength (if it wasn't, people would complain). That would either lead to it having a very small base value (being useless if you didn't spec for power strength), or an average base that could be modified into a very large number (recreating the same conditions that had it removed in the first place).

 

The 40% base on Overheat was fine. It wasn't until Blind Rage came out that Overheat became a tanking tool. But passives aren't modified by stats, removing that possibility. So it makes Ember a little more guarded, or you can use Fire Blast to do a little more damage.

[Mak_Gohae]

What is too much resistance? Atlas with his armor and a steel fiber alone can easily achieve 75% damage reduction and can easily dish out 100k++ with landslide. Also right now whit her armor and a max vitality mod she can only achieve about 1040 effective hp (1340 with shields). Add 40% damage reduction to that and we are still far from the tank realm. Tanky warframes like chroma can achieve 25k to 65k++ effective hp. With a regular damage build (power str mods+vitality) ember would not reach beyond 3k effective hp. The old overheat could achieve similar numbers to chroma without having to take damage for ramping vex. It is a powerful passive, but as we can see with this new passive, its that it would not be even close to the old overheat or any of the top defensive abilities for that matter. 

 

Too much is what DE declares is too much.

Ember is supposed to have low armor. It had low armor until DE gave up on how to buff the frame.

With the boost it got i dont think they are going to push and add more to it.

[(PSN)ShuhanX]

I absolutely love this idea. However, I do somewhat agree that it is a tad OP to be a mere passive. I think this would be marvelous if it were simply incorporated into her 3. Reduce the damage reduction compared to the original Overheat (maybe cap it at 75 or 80%). Have it work as the OP suggested. It builds up heat as you use energy, raising damage reduction to its capped level, causing constant radial heat damage to those within range. Then upon a second cast, it releases the built up heat as the current Fire Blast (with punch-through, like the Eximus Fire Blast). Make the fire ring scale with range mods. That's really all she needs. DE will probably make her passive an innate Warm-Coat, or perhaps give her an innate Status Chance increase for any element or elemental combo that uses Heat damage.

I'm sure others have suggested these some of these things in this thread, so forgive me if I'm merely parroting anyone.

[Roboplus]

The roughly 8-12% damage resist she gained from the armor buff only impacts her already average health value. I agree that the buff came out of desperation, but it also did practically nothing. The buff to her sprint speed was a more substantial increase to her survivability.

 

In the complete opposite direction, 75% damage resist is a tremendous amount. When suggesting balance changes, keep in mind Ember's new-found ability to lockdown moderately sized groups at medium/long range with World on Fire/Firequake. Even if a ranged Ember can sacrifice damage to continuously knockdown groups with Firequake (though preforming less damage in the process), a damage Ember still has to fight at medium range.

 

A damage Ember can make use of a moderate damage resist vs snipers/heavies/bombards/nullifiers. A ranged Ember can make use of more damage against the enemies they've mezed.

 

For those suggesting only that this is too powerful for a passive (opposed to those suggesting that it is simply too powerful), ask yourself this: What would be the difference between reworking/replacing Fire Blast to make it a stronger choice, and a passive (that requires using energy anyway) that does the same thing?

 

P.S.: Eximus Fire Blast wall does not have punch-through. You need only stand behind a paper-thin wall and wait for it to pass to avoid it entirely (the wall has width though, so you can still get hit if you come out too early).