Cc Negatively Impacts The Game. (900 Words?)

[VRHmason]

I know I've been mostly picking on cc....but damage/immortal frames are on my radar as well...infact nearly everyone is but it's too much to talk about

all deez mtherfkers http://puu.sh/ms8E7/8c192bea78.jpg

 

 

 

so basically when you count cc frames such as banshee and equinox into that, you have 4 frames left that you don't have problem with.

you must be having fun playing this game.

 

Maybe people build one button frames because they don't want to play the same thing 100 times in order to get some drop...

You need to play exterminate 100 times to get a drop? Take AOD frame

You need to play interception 100 times to get a drop? Take CC frames

 

and so on...

 

As this game requires grind to get stuff then don't blame people for finding fastest and easiest ways to grind it.

I am all up for challenge, I also think some frames are too much OP, I also want some difficulty....but there is none at the moment, not in sorties, not in derelict, not in void (at least not for first hours of playing it). So to avoid all that tedious work people, including me, tend to take the easy way, in my case especially when exterminate, capture and mobile defense are the missions.

Edited January 12, 2016 by VRHmason

[Dreadwire]

Warframe is warframe.

The game design revolves around it.

Matching it with other game is out of question.

Beside I want more fun in game rather straight up serious

[ranks21]

another tomagachi player complains...

[KuroNekoXlll]

 enemy scaling and some mechanics implemented this past year are just as much responsible. 

Enemy scaling is ..not that big of a deal.

There will eventually be a point where enemies instagib us and that's okay, we may choose fight as hard as we can against it, don't ever go to that point... ever (that takes forever ffs), or just leave.

Basically the game is telling you to get F*** out of here *@##$ or I will make you. Our desire to seemingly go on forever and ever and ever....is what lead's to power creep.

I went over this when I was comparing warframe to boxhead.

 

so basically when you count cc frames such as banshee and equinox into that, you have 4 frames left that you don't have problem with.

you must be having fun playing this game.

 

Maybe people build one button frames because they don't want to play the same thing 100 times in order to get some drop...

You need to play exterminate 100 times to get a drop? Take AOD frame

You need to play interception 100 times to get a drop? Take CC frames

 

and so on...

 

As this game requires grind to get stuff then don't blame people for finding fastest and easiest ways to grind it.

I am all up for challenge, I also think some frames are too much OP, I also want some difficulty....but there is none at the moment, not in sorties, not in derelict, not in void (at least not for first hours of playing it). So to avoid all that tedious work people, including me, tend to take the easy way, in my case especially when exterminate, capture and mobile defense are the missions.

I also addressed the grind abit and linked to a thread about... loot manipulation and grind.  

Do you truly believe that once it get's better... people will stop using the easiest method available to them. This is why we can't complain about the drop tables..yet. We aren't willing to put in any effort, then we might as well put in time and/ or money...It's just going to be instant gratification otherwise. Also this is going off on a tangent

Yes, I have fun

*tips hat*

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

The problem isn't the existence of CC. It is that the game necessitates it at high level.

The AI system needs a drastic revamp, then they can get rid of garbage like nullifiers.

It should be the next revamp after the upcoming damage changes, because damage 3.0 alone won't fix things.

[GnosticCat]

The problem isn't the existence of CC. It is that the game necessitates it at high level.

The AI system needs a drastic revamp, then they can get rid of garbage like nullifiers.

It should be the next revamp after the upcoming damage changes, because damage 3.0 alone won't fix things.

Question - who is even notice that improved AI of yours? Enemies don't live long enough for their AI to be noticed at low level. At high level they are disabled by CC. How would this improved AI change anything?

[VRHmason]

Do you truly believe that once it get's better... people will stop using the easiest method available to them. This is why we can't complain about the drop tables..yet. We aren't willing to put in any effort, then we might as well put in time and/ or money...It's just going to be instant gratification otherwise. Also this is going off on a tangent

Yes, I have fun

*tips hat*

 

My point was not to remove rng and then people will stop abusing their powers. My point is make content that use of those powers won't be OP.

Why not just add higher end content in which CC and 1 button frames won't work that easy or at all? Why not make it more challenge rather than just nerf everything. I mean how many frames you got? Now imagine time it takes to balance all that, then all frame combinations as well. Meantime while you nerf all the frames rng stays same and you grind more and more for new prime frames that will come in game.

Sorties are good direction but still not that hard. Imo game needs more "nullifier" like enemies that will dry your energy or simply prevent the affect of ability.

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

love how OP keeps going on about challenge. sure, let's fight those level 100+ Grineer Eximus mobs with NO CC whatsoever. I bet within 10 seconds, you'll be running your arse back to your keyboard to write a post titled "Grineer are OP"

 

if you don't want CC, here's an Idea; don't use a Frame that has powerful CC. take Ash, Chroma or Saryn into games. those frames can't outright stop enemies for long periods of time (Bladestorm doesn't last that long, unless you choose to spam it, but then you're using CC yourself). don't infringe on other people's rights just so you can have things your way.

[KuroNekoXlll]

 

love how OP keeps going on about challenge. sure, let's fight those level 100+ Grineer Eximus mobs with NO CC whatsoever. I bet within 10 seconds, you'll be running your arse back to your keyboard to write a post titled "Grineer are OP"

That isnt the point... you're missing the point...Please just read...You might need to read all of it. 

 

if you don't want CC, here's an Idea; don't use a Frame that has powerful CC. take Ash, Chroma or Saryn into games. those frames can't outright stop enemies for long periods of time (Bladestorm doesn't last that long, unless you choose to spam it, but then you're using CC yourself). don't infringe on other people's rights just so you can have things your way.

Well, I've been waiting for you.

Here:

"Don't like it, don't do it". (Specifically for you folks who say this: It's time to broaden your perspective, the world isn't just about you. Grow up.) 

This is fallacy btw. I hope after reading the rest, you will be convinced that some issues can't just be ignored by people who don't like them as it is relevant to everyone whether you choose to go down the cheese path or not.

 

Harmful to future game design.

 

"There is no end game content"

Neither did Boxhead, S#&$ just got harder to the point you felt urgency and survival legitimately at stake...Warframe doesn't get harder, it just get's more boring. DE right now CAN'T implement any sort of endgame because the power level of cc inhibits anything from actually be challenging. It is something we CAN'T simply leave in the game untouched. The moment DE releases anything "difficult" like they did with sorties, players will simply fall back on radial disarm or something then come here to say "sorties are too easy". People were forced out of Boxhead due to difficulty, We voluntarily end games because we got bored...

Srsly tho, like boxhead...do we really need late game? 

 

Power creep and poor "incomparables"

The existing power level of frames and weapons (primary their "late game cc") impacts our expectations which in turn impacts developer's decision on how they design content.

 

We know what power creep is right? good cuz I dont wanna talk about it.

"Bad" incomparables though, Warframe has seen a fair amount of these. Think of frames like Nekros(prebuff) and Oberon; upon their release...reception was negative. They are perfectly good frames but we found them lacking despite them being incomparables: they offered a different choice players could make rather being a powercreep. But they didnt hold a candle to the 2 most dominant "late game cc" frames: Vauban and Nova.

*This is also seen in weapons btw.

Edited January 12, 2016 by KuroNekoXlll

[(PSN)Ana_Nuann]

Question - who is even notice that improved AI of yours? Enemies don't live long enough for their AI to be noticed at low level. At high level they are disabled by CC. How would this improved AI change anything?

The reason you are forced to CC is because the game is being balanced around garbage Ai. They have to put in crap like nullifiers as a sort of bandaid.

If the AI was drastically improved, damage 3.0 in effect, there wouldn't be a need for nullifiers, damage wouldn't be out of control, therefore CC is no longer NECESSARY.

You don't CC because you want to, you CC because you are ****ed if you don't.

What is your solution to fixing the game after CC is removed? Oh? You don't have one? People should quit because the game quickly becomes unwinnable?

Feels to me more like you aren't considering how to improve things at all.

[Otaiken]

It's just scaling that's borked beyond recognition. Scaling of pretty much everything, but enemies especially, is completely #*($%%@.

 

Since enemies scale into infinity any sort of power that just mitigates is gonna become useless at some point. Any power that disables is gonna completely dominate.

 

Which leads to current binary situation where enemies are either ridiculous (due to scaling) in damage/HP or completely disabled and therefore irrelevant. There's very little middle ground (sorites ain't that middle ground, that's for sure).

 

So that's what needs to change: scaling. And there NEEDS to be a ceiling somewhere. One can't have balanced "end-game" otherwise. But people have been calling for stuff like armor scaling since there was a single tileset and DE just friggin sticks to it. I have no idea why... just suck it up and make it into ablative system DE!

 

After you have a ceiling and proper scaling you can start converting disabling CC into mitigating CC and balance it so it takes power away from enemies but doesn't leave them completely harmless.

Edited January 12, 2016 by LocoWithGun

[KuroNekoXlll]

It's just scaling that's borked beyond recognition. Scaling of pretty much everything, but enemies especially, is completely #*($%%@.

 

Since enemies scale into infinity any sort of power that just mitigates is gonna become useless at some point. Any power that disables is gonna completely dominate.

 

Which leads to current binary situation where enemies are either ridiculous (due to scaling) in damage/HP or completely disabled and therefore irrelevant. There's very little middle ground (sorites ain't that middle ground, that's for sure).

 

So that's what needs to change: scaling. And there NEEDS to be a ceiling somewhere. One can't have balanced "end-game" otherwise. But people have been calling for stuff like armor scaling since there was a single tileset and DE just friggin sticks to it. I have no idea why... just suck it up and make it into ablative system DE!

You have the sort of mentality...that I want to change.

I genuinely have no issue with the scaling

 

Right now, Warframers have this mentality that "because enemies scale out of control and instagib us, it is wrong"

I'ma throw you a curve ball and say that it's perfectly fine.

The extremes are just irrelevant to us. Those lvl200 enemies are irrelevant. A lvl 999 enemy can ridiculously scaled however they want, and it would not matter to us.

These highly scaled enemies we ONLY see in endless missions, not only that but we ONLY see them like 2~3 hours into the game. Most people get bored of the game by then, the average joe only goes up to 40~50 minutes and facing roughly lvl100~110 enemies at maximum.

Which is far more relevant to us. 

Because I want to tone down CC, I'm mostly interested in the content we currently have that can be done without CC. I feel like I go for another 900 words so I outa stop....

 

You're right, there has to be a ceiling, a realistic ceiling. Because a ceiling exists right now...it's being held up so high by the power of our CC. You wanna know what that ceiling looks like? Well it looks like everybody is in perfectly good shape, and they have run out of ammo....and ammo restore packs...and life support....everything.

If we can tone down CC to the point where it's not braindead stun the whole map for a million years and make it so we actually have to manage resources...The ceiling will be dramatically lowered. None of this damage 3.0 or scaling 2.0 either.

CC will still.. scale infinitely, that is the nature of CC...But if you toned it down enough with meaningful costs...Upholding a perpetual net of CC around EVERYTHING will actually require some thought causing players to eventually fall if they can't keep up.

I also want people to stop thinking that "falling" in an endless survival mission means "failure". No one wants to fail...but you're not suppose to win either, and you're certainly not meant to stay forever no matter how good you are just because it's suppose to be endless. So you are eventually pressured out of the mission as you should be, not because you went so far that you're now bored as hell and feel like leaving.

[GnosticCat]

The reason you are forced to CC is because the game is being balanced around garbage Ai. They have to put in crap like nullifiers as a sort of bandaid.

If the AI was drastically improved, damage 3.0 in effect, there wouldn't be a need for nullifiers, damage wouldn't be out of control, therefore CC is no longer NECESSARY.

You don't CC because you want to, you CC because you are ****ed if you don't.

What is your solution to fixing the game after CC is removed? Oh? You don't have one? People should quit because the game quickly becomes unwinnable?

Feels to me more like you aren't considering how to improve things at all.

I am thinking that game is not balanced around garbage AI that it is balanced around powers, so they have to put in nullifiers to deal with those powers.

I am not saying that CC is not needed or that it is needed I am just saying that I don't see how AI would help dealing with power spam? Could you give me example? Lets say I roll in with Ash and oposing me is let's say 12 grineer lancers. How that AI would help them survive bladestorm or tonkor/penta blast?

[GreyEnneract]

Warframes are supposed to be overpowered.

If you want to have CC checks however, then you'll need to: 

1. Remove nullifiers completely.

2. Add in enemies similar to Comba & Scramba to every faction.

3. Re-balance enemy scaling.

[AoiiToori]

You lost me at "Warframe is slow paced."

[KuroNekoXlll]

You lost me at "Warframe is slow paced."

Well.. Can't please everyone I guess. Shame to see you go

[Naftal]

We need all our OP bullS#&$ nerfed before we can have any real action or difficulty.

 

No CC that hits unlimited targets.

No stuff that hits enemies through walls.

No immortality stuff.

No unlimited energy.

Aoe weapons need less single target dps than nonaoe. Much less.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Naftal

[(PSN)Doctor-Blitz-]

I like the actual CC. Period.

[Dromeos-Prime]

We need all our OP bullS#&$ nerfed before we can have any real action or difficulty.

 

No CC that hits unlimited targets.

No stuff that hits enemies through walls.

No immortality stuff.

No unlimited energy.

Aoe weapons need less single target dps than nonaoe. Much less.

So... might as well get rid of abilities completely and turn this into COD + some fancy shmancy parkour? I mean COD is a totally good example of what a game about super powered space ninjas should be right? /s

 

Yeah no... warframe is a horde based game, and that's what makes it fun, slaughtering 1000's of thrash mobs is what warframe is about, not hiding behind a corner and "tactically"  shooting an enemy which is also "tactically" hiding behind a wall.

[ClinkzEastwood]

CC in this game are way better than any other games of the same types.

CC focused RPG, ARPG, MOBA characters don't even have as good CC as semi CC frames in Warframe.

So... might as well get rid of abilities completely and turn this into COD + some fancy shmancy parkour? I mean COD is a totally good example of what a game about super powered space ninjas should be right? /s

 

Yeah no... warframe is a horde based game, and that's what makes it fun, slaughtering 1000's of thrash mobs is what warframe is about, not hiding behind a corner and "tactically"  shooting an enemy which is also "tactically" hiding behind a wall.

Borderlands series handled it way better.

Or Mass Effect Co-op

Or any aRPG in existence.

[AoiiToori]

Well.. Can't please everyone I guess. Shame to see you go

Idk who you were trying to "please" but the way you constructed your post is like you saying that your opinion is the ultimate opinion of everybody else. It's like seeing one of those clickbait "journalist" articles that say "This xxxx is awesome and this is why you should think it is...".

 

See I only agree with 2 of your opinions.

 

A) DE does need to find a way to punish/decimate all these cheese camping/harvesting playstyles and really focus on finding a way of balancing between good gameplay and design. So far for me, DE's got the good gameplay down. Sorties are a good step forward in the good gameplay section.

 

B) 

 

the world isn't just about you. Grow up.

 

[Dromeos-Prime]

-snip-

Borderlands series handled it way better.

Or Mass Effect Co-op

Or any aRPG in existence.

But do you face more than 50 enemies at one time in any of those games, and even then. Do those enemies have a hitscan aim-bot that one shot you, or a 15 meter aoe explosive that goes through any cover; and add to that the fact that those kinds of enemies spawn in droves and are often shielded by an impenetrable bubble that stops abilities, or a massive damage reduction aura?

[Nlim]

Current state of CC is kind of the reason why I main banshee. Her 1&3 offer decent CC without just making enemies useless - as long as I ignore her 4th she has kind of the perfect mix beteen having useful cc without making the game boring.

Though as somone pointed out the community does not want a challenge - at least not at large. Rather at this point people are so reliant on those abilties that they think playing without them is unfair or not possible for high end missions.

[TheBrsrkr]

So... might as well get rid of abilities completely and turn this into COD + some fancy shmancy parkour? I mean COD is a totally good example of what a game about super powered space ninjas should be right? /s

Yeah no... warframe is a horde based game, and that's what makes it fun, slaughtering 1000's of thrash mobs is what warframe is about, not hiding behind a corner and "tactically" shooting an enemy which is also "tactically" hiding behind a wall.

Later today.....

OMG WARFARM IZ ALL ABOUT TEH GRINDZ!!!1! NO ENDGAEM!!!! NULLIFIERS 2 OP!!!

It's almost like you think there isn't a middle ground between whack a mole at half speed and Dark Souls. If the game is about killing thousands of enemies with ease being commonplace, expect the rewards system to reflect that. Don't complain when you have to grind for hours.

[TheBrsrkr]

But do you face more than 50 enemies at one time in any of those games, and even then. Do those enemies have a hitscan aim-bot that one shot you, or a 15 meter aoe explosive that goes through any cover; and add to that the fact that those kinds of enemies spawn in droves and are often shielded by an impenetrable bubble that stops abilities, or a massive damage reduction aura?

But do you have a gun in these games that can kill these enemies in less that a second, a 60m AoE that can be activated at any time that prevents them from doing literally anything on a 50m map and such a massive amount of power that it takes 40 minutes to actually be in any danger at all?