Cc Negatively Impacts The Game. (900 Words?)

[KuroNekoXlll]

I think you need to look for an other game if most of us likes the way it works and you are the one bothered by it.......

Doesn't seem wise to tell everyone who is not satisfied with the game to look for another game because I'm not the first nor the last to propose that something need's change. If everyone who wanted to buff, a nerf, or a revamp decided to just never bring it up for discussion and left the game. How much would be left?

[archiadus]

Doesn't seem wise to tell everyone who is not satisfied with the game to look for another game because I'm not the first nor the last to propose that something need's change. If everyone who wanted to buff, a nerf, or a revamp decided to just never bring it up for discussion and left the game. How much would be left?

 

The vast majority of players that don't visit the forums regularly and instead just enjoy the game for what it is, probably.

Edited January 13, 2016 by archiadus

[KuroNekoXlll]

The vast majority of players that don't visit the forums regularly and just enjoy the game for what it is, probably.

Just as the forums is not an accurate representation of everyone who is unhappy with the game.

Ingame is not an accurate representation of everyone who is happy with the game.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Underlined the irony.

 

I'm just going to quote this, because it's short and it summarizes the content of the ensuing exchange rather nicely. You're pointing out irony that isn't really there. 

 

The intended message of that section of the OP is (to paraphrase liberally) "It's de-constructive and childish to attempt to shut down another person's feedback by telling them to leave if they are dissatisfied."

 

This is undeniably accurate. If players are expected to keep their mouths shut about things they don't like, then that severely limits the feedback pool to positive feedback and leaves zero room for criticism. That's ridiculous. Of COURSE the OP is going to be posting exclusively about their opinion on the game, and writing in a manner that makes it seem like they are correct. What, are we supposed to be come experts on the opinions of other forum-goers and try to speak so broadly that we don't offend anyone? Thankfully not. It's the responsibility of the people reading opinions to remember that they are, in fact, opinions. Furthermore, they need to realize that pointing out that it's just like, your opinion, man, doesn't really contribute anything new to the conversation. 

 

Simply put, people who use "don't like it, don't play it," certainly do need to grow up and learn to be less self-centered because there's a huge difference between voicing your opinion and trying to shut down other opinions without any sort of justification or explanation. 

 

If "don't like it, don't play it" were to be given any weight in a serious discussion, we would still be using only armor-ignore weapons trying to see how many waves we could go in Infested Defense.

[Aratir]

Just as the forums is not an accurate representation of everyone who is unhappy with the game.

Ingame is not an accurate representation of everyone who is happy with the game.

Actually if they continue to play ingame it is....

[Autongnosis]

Actually if they continue to play ingame it is....

Not necessarily. I keep playing every time i have some free time, but i think this game has so much wasted potential for instance. And, wild guess, i don't think i'm alone.

 

Not being happy with the game doesn't automatically traslate to not liking the game tbh. It has to do with how the game is and how it could be, and how much the divide between the two is.

[fakeBOSHI]

Op has a point. Since 3 yrs ago, CC has been the only thing that scaled endlessly. Players have come to expect that they should also CC their way to 3 hr survivals since it's the only ability that scales with enemies.

Abilities should make it easier to handle hordes but keep the threat constant.

There is a problem however, when CC eliminates threats semi permanently as long as it is recastable, and energy efficient. Whether it covers a map or not is irrelevant if those 2 conditions are met.

Straight up nerfs would target those 2 aspects.

If a cc nerf is implemented, I would also want to see a change to enemies. Enemies should require multiple ways to engage.

CC removes the need for game knowledge/twitch reflex/situational awareness/dexterity and control/precision/prioritizing. This is not good game design. A nerf to cc requires implementing these changes in combination to enemies providing meaningful scaling.

Edited January 13, 2016 by fakeBOSHI

[TangyBlueBerry]

 

Oh, I agree; we need cc but in moderation of course.

Care to explain why there is "nothing in between"?

 

I can teach you how evade hitscan ranged mobs if you tell me abit more about your opinion.

 

I didnt come to Warframe expecting Dark Souls, I assure you.

I didnt come to Warframe expecting Attack on Target dummy mmof2p either

However games are not black and white like that...there is a middle ground that can be achieved.

 

I really have nothing to say if the community is so insecure that they feel the need to beat on enemies who are incapable of fighting back to feel powerful. 

 

We call people like that bullies

 

 

Did you really attempt to pretend we are bullies? Mate this is a game, ther are no feelings hurt when I skull bash a grineer clone number #8503.

 

No one is insecure here, stop trying to diminish other people because our taste in skill based games are not similar. I play Dynasty Warriors, same stick, you play 1 character so OP you can wipe hordes of enemies in a single blow.

 

I also play Dark Souls, and several other games you pretend to use to enlarge your epeen. It's not about people wanting skill, it's about people wanting fun. And I have a ton of fun watching enemies endlessly kill each other because I am Nyx and they are morons.

 

Now you going to try and make me feel bad about that hmm?

[(PSN)horridhal]

I'm just going to quote this, because it's short and it summarizes the content of the ensuing exchange rather nicely. You're pointing out irony that isn't really there. 

 

The intended message of that section of the OP is (to paraphrase liberally) "It's de-constructive and childish to attempt to shut down another person's feedback by telling them to leave if they are dissatisfied."

 

 

Except it isn't.  When the vast majority of the players are content with the current skill system, the issue becomes solely about he, and you, trying to tell others how to play the game.  

 

If you want to impose nerfs, you can do so without needing DE to code them into the game.  Run less mods, bam, you've nerfed yourself.  If you don't want to spam your abilities and don't want to play with other people who do, set your party to Solo, or friends/invite only, and try making friends with like minded people.  You could, realistically, message some of the ones in this thread and have a built in group of people you know want the same things.  

 

Have you, or the OP, done these things?  No, you haven't.  You've instead asked for nerfs you believe to be best for everyone to be coded into the game and remove a large portion of the fun factor many get from the game.  As it stands now, we could both play our separate ways.  If this idea goes through I am forced to play your way.  That is wrong.  Period.  To then, on top of that, add that I am being selfish if I attempt to point out such a blatant error in your logic is the absolute epitome of hypocrisy.

 

 

 

Simply put, people who use "don't like it, don't play it," certainly do need to grow up and learn to be less self-centered because there's a huge difference between voicing your opinion and trying to shut down other opinions without any sort of justification or explanation. 

 

 

Except the OP isn't discussing. He is actively attacking anyone who disagrees with him in this thread and telling them they are wrong and you want to attempt to tell me I'm self-centered.  Simply amazing.

 

Sorry if I knocked you off your soap box.  Try not stepping up on it next time.

Edited January 13, 2016 by (PS4)horridhal

[(PSN)CL_Poloboyzz93]

Yet another who fails to see the true underlying problem with WF. It's not just CC, believe me.

[(PSN)CL_Poloboyzz93]

Except it isn't.  When the vast majority of the players are content with the current skill system, the issue becomes solely about he, and you, trying to tell others how to play the game.  

 

If you want to impose nerfs, you can do so without needing DE to code them into the game.  Run less mods, bam, you've nerfed yourself.  If you don't want to spam your abilities and don't want to play with other people who do, set your party to Solo, or friends/invite only, and try making friends with like minded people.  You could, realistically, message some of the ones in this thread and have a built in group of people you know want the same things.  

 

Have you, or the OP, done these things?  No, you haven't.  You've instead asked for nerfs you believe to be best for everyone to be coded into the game and remove a large portion of the fun factor many get from the game.  As it stands now, we could both play our separate ways.  If this idea goes through I am forced to play your way.  That is wrong.  Period.  To then, on top of that, add that I am being selfish if I attempt to point out such a blatant error in your logic is the absolute epitome of hypocrisy.

 

 

 

Except the OP isn't discussing. He is actively attacking anyone who disagrees with him in this thread and telling them they are wrong and you want to attempt to tell me I'm self-centered.  Simply amazing.

 

Sorry if I knocked you off your soap box.  Try not stepping up on it next time.

Why should a player be forced to handicap themselves in order to pry a challenge from a game that should've been balanced in the first place? These are questions you should be asking. That whole "impose a nerf on yourself" S#&$ sounds dumb bro. Js. The games that last longest are the ones that deal with power creep quickly, and upkeep balance in the game. DE just continues to throw more new unbalanced warframes, more new unbalanced weps on top of old ones that never were balanced in the first place and forgets about them. This is why WF gets so many nerf complaints

Edited January 13, 2016 by (PS4)Poloboyzz93

[Mr.Lube]

I cannot agree with this post more. Unfortunately the Devs are terrified of our player base and their idle threats.

[Krion112]

-snip-

Your type of fun is ruining the fun of other players that are trying to use another play-style, which is supposed to exist if existing game-mechanics are any hint.

 

Here's how you hurt our play-style:

You nuke everything, no challenge, no remorse. You mop the floor with every enemy you encounter, and you never face any sort of challenge or difficulty. Then you come to the forum, and complain the content is too easy or that you can burn through it too quickly.

DE responds with Sorties and Trials, which offer unique rewards that the rest of us want but can't attain because we don't want the cheese like your play-style requires and what Sorties and Trials require.

Then they add things like Nitain and Argon to slow you down. It doesn't exist for my kind of player; it exists because of the cheese player that has to cheapen and trivialize game-play content so they can burn through it faster.

Then they add Nullifiers, Scrambi, and Combi that counter powers, preventing them from even being used just as a vain attempt to try and throw some challenge at you, as then you can't always sit in one place, hitting four in tandem with someone else.

And then you come here to the forums and complain.

Finally, we get Conclave, Syndicate, and Focus affinity caps, because the cheese players want to grind until they have everything, as the game is so monotonous they want to do everything as quickly and as efficiently as possible, and that means they tear through affinity related content like a bullet through tissue paper, so DE reacts by slowing them down with these caps, even though it hurts the players who don't want to grind that content.

 

Literally, your play-style influences the rest of the game, which means people who want to play using a different play-style, which there are intended to be many but we see more content, fixes, and balances dedicated to your kind of player because you're a vocal majority, are out of luck. You may think that gives you leverage, but it doesn't; the majority can be just as wrong as anyone else, in fact often times the majority is the most incorrect about an issue.

 

And no, I shouldn't leave the game; I don't hate Warframe. I like it, I think it's a fine game, it has a great potential that it doesn't meet because your player type holds it back, but it does have several lacking qualities, especially in that the devs are vainly attempting to support every play-style, which realistically resulted in them trying their best to fight the cheese without starting an uproar, which inevitably led to the decline of every other game-play element.

You and your kind of player made this game worse for me and my kind of player. And now you're the ones getting angry? No, you have no right to be angry. You have zero leverage. What Warframe is now, all of its most sincere flaws, are you and your kind of players' fault.

 

 

The idea was for the game to cater to multiple style of play; but, because of your masochistic outcry for dumbed down content so you could have some 'cheap' fun, the rest of the player base has pretty much gone without.

[(PSN)horridhal]

Why should a player be forced to handicap themselves in order to pry a challenge from a game that should've been balanced in the first place? These are questions you should be asking.

 

Why don't you enforce such gameplay on yourself rather than having it mandated to everyone categorically?  That is the real question here.  Why must we all be forced into your way of playing this game through coding rather than you having the self control required to play the way you want to?  The game is balanced, more or less.  What you are ignoring is that the game is balanced in the same way a Musou game is, and always has been.

 

 

 That whole "impose a nerf on yourself" S#&$ sounds dumb bro. Js.

 

And, yet, that's exactly what is happening in this thread.  You don't like the observation because it makes your complaints look like what they are, pointless.

 

IJS.

 

 The games that last longest are the ones that deal with power creep quickly, and upkeep balance in the game. DE just continues to throw more new unbalanced warframes, more new unbalanced weps on top of old ones that never were balanced in the first place and forgets about them. This is why WF gets so many nerf complaints

 

lol.  Nerf complaints abound on any forum for any game.  Period.  WF is no different.  Additionally WF has been going for 4-5 years now and still draws in new players.  It seems to be doing fine.

[Thebel]

The games that last longest are the ones that deal with power creep quickly, and upkeep balance in the game. DE just continues to throw more new unbalanced warframes, more new unbalanced weps on top of old ones that never were balanced in the first place and forgets about them. This is why WF gets so many nerf complaints

 

Looks at Maplestory still existing and going strong, WF isn't even close. I still don't understand how any changes mentioned would actually make the game a challenge. Since when have shooters ever been challenges against A.I.? Sure you could make them great aim bots but that's still basically an artificial difficulty. Make them work together? Who cares a few bullets and there isn't anyone to help them, even at sortie level. Shooters are only challenging when you have human opponents.

[(PSN)CL_Poloboyzz93]

Why don't you enforce such gameplay on yourself rather than having it mandated to everyone categorically?  That is the real question here.  Why must we all be forced into your way of playing this game through coding rather than you having the self control required to play the way you want to?  The game is balanced, more or less.  What you are ignoring is that the game is balanced in the same way a Musou game is, and always has been.

 

 

 

And, yet, that's exactly what is happening in this thread.  You don't like the observation because it makes your complaints look like what they are, pointless.

 

IJS.

 

 

lol.  Nerf complaints abound on any forum for any game.  Period.  WF is no different.  Additionally WF has been going for 4-5 years now and still draws in new players.  It seems to be doing fine.

 

Why don't you enforce such gameplay on yourself rather than having it mandated to everyone categorically?  That is the real question here.  Why must we all be forced into your way of playing this game through coding rather than you having the self control required to play the way you want to?  The game is balanced, more or less.  What you are ignoring is that the game is balanced in the same way a Musou game is, and always has been.

 

 

 

And, yet, that's exactly what is happening in this thread.  You don't like the observation because it makes your complaints look like what they are, pointless.

 

IJS.

 

 

lol.  Nerf complaints abound on any forum for any game.  Period.  WF is no different.  Additionally WF has been going for 4-5 years now and still draws in new players.  It seems to be doing fine.

And that's why musou games are where they are at. Half the world doesn't care about them OR know about them. Btw, you call musou games balanced? Well there we go, you've probably never played a balanced game. "additionally" Mr. Know it all, WF open beta was released on PC in 2013(which was the first to get it), if you can count, that's less than 3 years, as it's not March 2016 yet. Anything before that was testing, and frankly, console player base is pretty low. 

[Casval_Rouge]

Power creep is hardly an issue for games like Warframe, or Diablo.  That's what keep people playing.  Quest?  I can finish those within a session.  They aren't meant to have great replayblitliy.  Power progression is what keeps people playing.  It's not the only factor, but it is one if the not biggest factor here.  

 

The replayblity in a PvE game comes in power creeping.  Either you continually booster your own power level with every update, or the dev will have to.  That's the kind of progression that keeps people playing.  Like with Diablo 3.  They just released a new patch that as usual comes with new legendaries, rework gear, buffed a bunch of stuff and now people will break the record of how deep the infinite scaling dungeon they can go, again.  It works in that game.

 

Unfortunately unlike Diablo3 , Warframe don't have these incentives to make people go deeper.  You play void for that rotation C most of the time.  If you don't have what you want, you bail out and redo it.  There's no reason to go past that point.  Sortie?  Its not endless, and you just want the reward at the end of all of it.  So now see people complaining about defense, survival, the long missions because its a hassle.  Could those missions be more fun than ones that can be speedrun?  Yea, but very few cares, someone will be spamming MPrime to keep us safe anyway.   

 

To tie it back to the thread about CC.  This game does have insane CC, and I agree it makes the gameplay mindless.  If you have a Nova that just slows everyone to a crawl(attack speed as well?!) and they all die in 1-2 hits, where's the urgency?  I'm not even talking about challenge, I'm talking about what fuels adrenaline.  Now because people still want the progression they crave, we all go down the cycle known as the Grind.  We grind for progression, we don't care about the gameplay, because it became thoughtless.  

 

Nerf CC, give us tools that don't nullify threats.  Want to stay alive?  Keep moving to dodge, take cover to avoid fire, kill them fast enough so they can't fight back, let a tank soak the damage while you support it with damage and healing, and only occasionally pull out the Vortex because either panic or tactical reasons. 

 

Don't give us a big radius power that disarm all enemies and make them brawl themselves to death while we watch.

 

Don't give us a snowglobe that neglects so much threat that one can relax within, sip tea and occasionally swing our swords at frozen enemies.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Casval_Rouge

[NoirMortiOwl]

If you want that then play Mass Effect 3 multiplayer.

This game doesn't even have cover mechanics...

If I wanted to play generic 3rd person cover shooter, I would play Gears of War or ME3

[Kaisty]

Most of them yes, especially in Borderlands, which is also a aRPG shooter like Warframe.

And do you aware that the existence of many ridiculous units in this game, namely ancient healers and nullifiers, was the result of Warframe's ability being massively overpowered?

For example, look at one of Borderlands 2's ability Sabre turret: Maxed out it deals a good amount of DPS, being able to mark the enemy it shoots at for double amount of damage (like viral in this game) and has a shield. The turret alone can kill about 1 trash enemy every 5 second. Each of Borderlands's class only has one single ability like that, and they always have cooldown. Now look back at Warframe, the majority of damage dealing ability in this game can insta gib one single unit, if not then it can dish out a huge amount of aoe damage and can clear an entire room of trash mobs, and each Warframe has 4 of those. Warframe's abilities don't have cooldown, and they can be spammed endlessly thanks to energy restore frames like EV Trinity.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy this game a lot. I like the flow, the movement, and the fact tha most guns are unique and useful (excluding some ridiculously overpowered guns). But the combat in this game, especially in class designs and enemy designs, are way below of games in similar genre.

The only way I know of to even get close to what Warframe has for abilities in Borderlands is to use a modded character where they have skills to max and certain equipment to allow the skills to do more than normal. I actually ran a Maya solo build for poops and giggles where her phaselock

was maxed out and rushed into a higher tier arena. It was like a Oberon/Nyx combo with free res and the cool down went extermely fast once the trash mobs got locked.

 

But at the same time, when you run the more extreme levels of Borderlands 2 each time you beat it, the enemies do get stronger and have more resistances to your skills, thus leaving the players to carry different weapons and loadouts or run with others in the hope of getting through the tougher things for even better loot drops, so it all balances out in the end.

 

-snip-

One thing most players who think that the meta dying in a game is a good thing forget is that you can't kill the meta. No matter how hard you try, there will always be people looking to make the game easier so they can grind faster and get back to enjoying what they do.

 

Second, you can't put all the blame on players who do this. Long before any of those things listed happened, players had to grind for their own Warframe abilities and mods for their weapons. Once players found some of the better places to grind for things, everyone jumped on it so they could either get past mastery fodder weapons or level up their forma'd gear again faster so they could get back to enjoying it.

 

Third, DE did not have to respond in such a manner by increasing levels of RNG, adding in Nullifers (and other mobs like them) putting parts of ships in crates or adding in other types of resources that can only be found if you grind the game for a period of time.

 

Instead of increasing the RNG, increase the ways people could gain the items they sought while adding some type of challenge to them within reason. If they really wanted to do it the grind way, then set it up as a chore list like other missions have had before us (E.G. Scan this/these enemies x number of times to find the first part, kill these mob types x number of times for the second part, defeat the boss x number of times for the third part) otherwise players could just buy said item from the marketplace. The same could go with ship parts or just change it where they require certain easy to get resources but at larget amounts depending on the rarity of the ship.

 

Instead of adding in Nullifers and the like, ask the playerbase why they are spamming the abilities so much and what else could be done within reason to lessen their want of spamming? Most do it so they can fly through the missions and get the prize and then move on. Other do it because it feels like the only way to get through higher level missions without dying to cheesy enemies and their OHK weapons.

Yet when Dark Souls lets almost everything one shot you, noone is complaining....... well most of the players..... 

Cmon, you're a space ninja with powers of dope friggin elements, anti matter or dimensional travel......

 

Also why not just make enemies have 25% or 15% CC resistance of the original value everytime they get CC'ed in a *insert time* second window or idk permanently with a cap of idk 100% or 75%?  so you would have the mindset to kill the enemies as fast as possible after CC'ing them....

If people want a really challenging game, they will play Dark Souls, Ninja Gaiden Black (and other games like that), I Want To Be The Guy, and other games that cause challenges meant for those willing to tough it out in order to beat it. Sure in this game spamming moves over and over make it way too easy, but at the same time if DE even decided to try and make this game even close to any of the games listed above, then they better let the playerbase (both new and old) know they are going to do it if not keep it for the hardest of hard missions, otherwise they will create another "gate" that will drive away all but those looking for a challenge or who are stubborn.

 

Also for some missions, you can't kill the enemies fast enough if they are way too high of a level so most of those missions tend to be the kind where it is "keep the enemies alive till the end, then kill them so they have to wait till next round to respawn."

 

1. Not many people have suggested this but how about giving every Warframe powers cooldowns? This, at least, limits the amount of times people can spam their abilities. Not to mention that all Tenno/Operator powers have cooldowns.

2. There should be a ceiling on the scaling on enemies IMO. This would give us a reference point for balancing content.

1.While giving Warframe's cooldowns seem like a good idea, DE would have to compensate by tweaking the duration of some powers and the health/armor/damage of mobs in order to make cooldowns seem viable. Most powers are set as a quick cast or rapid cast because DE assumed that players would only use them once or twice in a row. To slap cool downs on them would probably screw over solo players who rely on certain skills being available when they do runs (E.G. Loki/Ash with invisibility) if they have to wait for a longer period of time in order to use them even when they tweak their frame setup for the abilities to run for a long time. Also would the cool down take place after the ability wears off or would it kick in while the ability is in use?

 

2. Yes they could scale the enemies to a certain level, thus giving us end game plateaus to check our gear against to see if we are ready for "end game raids" and other missions; but if DE really wanted players to only play to a certain level and then leave, why not force them to?

 

If DE only wants players to go till 40 to one hour in a Survival mission tops, then cause enemies to either stop spawning or do what is done in the survival alerts and kill the timer while only sending in enemies without rare drops in their tables and air canisters (I.E. enemies try to choke you out without sending in people to give you air/supplies that you can use).

 

Interception and Defense missions could have an auto extraction after a set number of turns (enemies stop sending in transmissions to those locations and the reinforcements routed the enemies).

 

Excavation only drops a certain number of drills before reaching a limit because Natah could only spare a certain amount for the mission.

 

As compensation for these changes, why not remove the lower end items off the drop tables so players have a reason to run for as long as they can.

[Swailwort]

I feel the biggest CC problems in this game are both Loki (obvious reasons) and Vauban (area denial anyone?) because one not only disarms enemies but makes them fight each other, and the other completely stops anything. Another part of the problem is Mirage. 20s Map Wide Blind seems hardly balanced. And Slowva. Most boring defenses ever. Speedva makes anything better.

All the other CC frames (Rhino lasts normal RPG times, Nyx's Chaos can backfire with catastrophic results, Oberon has horrible range, Banshee has a Stun Lock that nobody uses and a 3s Stun, Zephyr has randomnados, Ivara and Equinox are short ranged) so they are more like "Oh F***" CC like in RPG's. The others make the game too easy to even enjoy.

[Mr.Lube]

Edit : forgot to mention how much work people put into leveling mods and putting forma for those CC frames they love, so I believe a lot of people would be mad if one of these frames they worked hours for got nerfed )

Stuff that people like in other video games gets nerfed all the time and you don't see a massive uproar and revolt there, so why should we be afraid to balance stuff in our game?

[DeMonkey]

I agree, mass CC and it's spammability really takes the fun and challenge out of certain missions.

 

However, the underlying problem is and always will be Corrupted mods. CC wouldn't reach 50-60m if Overextended didn't exist, and it's not like the negative power strength even hurts CC abilities. 

 

Radial Disarm for instance, neither Fleeting Expertise nor Overextended have negative effects that devalue the ability (aside the small damage it does to enemies it can't disarm for you nitpickers) and you end up with a 40m permanent disarm that costs 40 energy.

 

Without going into them (as you asked) damage/immortal frames are in the same boat.

[Gilmaesh]

OP is probably right that cc in their current form are a bit of problem in this game. That, the infinite energy system we have and the very large range we can achieve

 

The player base can't ask for more interesting enemies but retain their mass, spammable CC capabilities.  The best AI coders in the world can't make an enemy that is blinded+rooted+disarmed+shooting it's own guys a challenge to anyone unless this enemy is immune to virtually all CC (at which point, players cry hax.)  Players need to understand they can't have god-like control of the battlefield and expect things to ever be challenging.  

 

also true, you can add to the blinded+rooted+disarmed+radiation the perma invisibility with naramon. They can't even see you now :D

 

We are at a point where it's either we cc / go invisible/invincible or they oneshot most of the frames.

 

We could maybe start by adding some diminishing returns, using the same cc multiple times on the same mob could decrease their effectiveness. (like it happen already on some boss i think)

 

But if they start tweaking cc they will have to tweak mobs as well.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Gilmaesh

[KuroNekoXlll]

OP is probably right that cc in their current form are a bit of problem in this game. That, the infinite energy system we have and the very large range we can achieve

 

 

also true, you can add to the blinded+rooted+disarmed+radiation the perma invisibility with naramon. They can't even see you now :D

 

We are at a point where it's either we cc / go invisible/invincible or they oneshot most of the frames.

 

We could maybe start by adding some diminishing returns, using the same cc multiple times on the same mob could decrease their effectiveness. (like it happen already on some boss i think)

 

But if they start tweaking cc they will have to tweak mobs as well.

Fortunately DE has been working on gutting "invincibility" since the start lf the game (ex. Rhino,Trinity) so we don't have to worry about that.

Invisibility can have a "bandaid" like enemies shoot in the direction of sound regardless if they see anything, or invisible frames(loki/ash) break's stealth with noise like Ivara does.. annd I'm going off topic

 

I think it's a curiously good idea. "Diminishing Returns" doesnt trample on much: Infinite energy? Retained. Ridiculous range? Retained. Ridiculous Duration? Retained...so people should be pretty happy. The only thing that would change is that spamming becomes disincentivized but still retained. These are baby steps that I'm happy with.

 

It only took like 7 pages to get here, gj folks

Edited January 14, 2016 by KuroNekoXlll

[DiabolusUrsus]

 

Except the OP isn't discussing. He is actively attacking anyone who disagrees with him in this thread and telling them they are wrong and you want to attempt to tell me I'm self-centered.  Simply amazing.

 

Sorry if I knocked you off your soap box.  Try not stepping up on it next time.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa. There has been argument in this thread, yes, but it has stayed remarkably civil compared to the vast majority of any of the other myriad balance-related threads I have participated in over the past few years. Argument still qualifies as discussion, though I'd definitely be curious to hear about your threshold for what qualifies as an "attack."  Maybe the OP got a little too incensed here or there (not that I've seen) but for the most part they have remained civil. 

 

Of COURSE we're going to tell you you're wrong; our opinion is different from yours. That's kind of how a debate works, yeah? You try to convince the other side that you are right. Except that doesn't really happen if someone tries to end the debate by saying "if you disagree with me, leave." 

 

So, sorry, but I'm still standing on whatever little soapbox you imagined me on. 

 

Except it isn't.  When the vast majority of the players are content with the current skill system, the issue becomes solely about he, and you, trying to tell others how to play the game.  

 

If you want to impose nerfs, you can do so without needing DE to code them into the game.  Run less mods, bam, you've nerfed yourself.  If you don't want to spam your abilities and don't want to play with other people who do, set your party to Solo, or friends/invite only, and try making friends with like minded people.  You could, realistically, message some of the ones in this thread and have a built in group of people you know want the same things.  

 

Quantify vast majority, please. I'd love to see whatever comprehensive survey you've taken of the millions of Warframe players out there, so that I can be sure you aren't just projecting the opinion you want to see on to most of them. Also, last I checked, we're not the only ones in this thread who are discontent with the current game... so it's not just "him" and "me." 

 

Yes, I could just gimp myself by depriving myself of access to existing content... and yes, that would make the game more difficult... but that kind of ignores the rather important issues of an incompatibility between enemy scaling and a more moderated way of playing the game. Or were you too busy trying to snidely point out nonexistent hypocrisies that you didn't bother to pay attention to what was actually said? 

 

 

Have you, or the OP, done these things?  No, you haven't.  You've instead asked for nerfs you believe to be best for everyone to be coded into the game and remove a large portion of the fun factor many get from the game.  As it stands now, we could both play our separate ways.  If this idea goes through I am forced to play your way.  That is wrong.  Period.  To then, on top of that, add that I am being selfish if I attempt to point out such a blatant error in your logic is the absolute epitome of hypocrisy.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, again. Let's shut down this faulty logic, shall we? 

Under your presentation of how this works:

 

- Asking for changes that "impose" a different playstyle on other people is unquestionably evil and wrong.

 

Correct? Okay.

 

In that case, 

 

All the feedback that produced Damage 2.0 was unquestionably evil and wrong, because it forced people to mod (slightly) differently.

 

All the feedback that produced Melee 2.0 was unquestionably evil and wrong, because it forced people to stop using charge attacks.

 

All the feedback that produced Parkour 2.0 was unquestionably evil and wrong, because it took away coptering. 

 

Provided it goes through, the feedback which instigated the upcoming institution of weapon stat scaling and the modification/removal of damage mods will be unquestionably evil and wrong because it will force people to surrender things they might want to keep. 

 

Asking for buffs is unquestionably evil and wrong because without nerfs that affect everybody (which is evil and wrong) we'll eventually be so powerful that even unmodded the OP and I can no longer sufficiently gimp ourselves, and we'll be forced to play your way.

 

If change (which forces people to play differently) is wrong, we may as well stop providing any feedback on these forums and just have a giant circle-jerk discussing how perfect Warframe is. 

 

You like to talk about how ironic everything is, right? 

 

In case you missed the point the first two times, disagreeing with the OP's point of view does not make you selfish.

 

Trying to dismiss the OP's opinion as less valid than your opinion simply because it does not match the status quo does.

 

Edits for typos and improved clarity.

Edited January 14, 2016 by DiabolusUrsus