Remove Bursas.

[SnakeWildlife]

Edgy commentary on massive cc frames aside, Those bursas are interestingly passive even when not status'd. When I fought them they did a lot more chaining of moves and actively run at me while shooting, and behaved almost nothing like those. They would also constantly shift around and never really stood still. Is that truly solo or are you just by yourself as a client in a multiplayer mission? I'm wondering if they behave differently based on if you're client or host? Does their AI maybe break somewhat after having a CC ability used on them? 

 

I'm really interested in this.

 

 

Theres no difference in their AI between game modes.  FriendsOnly Online session, iv been running the event straight for days and im just baffled to the point of facepalm how anybody can percieve Bursa's as hard.

 

The only person i saw die was this rank 4 player who had no HP and Shields, who set off every alarm and got himself surrounded by like 6 Bursa's.   Is the Bursa the problem? Or should that player have been more careful in the first place with both A: Not setting camera's off and B: Letting himself somehow be cornered by such slow enemies, and C: Put some ### mods on!

 

The only way i personally can die from a bursa, is if i stand still, and afk for several minutes

Edited February 15, 2016 by SnakeWildlife

[Lokime]

Bursas are fine in regular missions, the quantity of them is the problem. 3 per regular mission (spy, extermination, blabla) is fine, on survival/defense should appear 1 per X number of waves/time.

[IceColdHawk]

Video response:

 

Now i can go back to bed and skip the rest of the day since it's been made. The nekros part is even worth 2 days.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Yeah i made it. Im just sick of this -.- topic after topic of "Nerf the game so can win if we stand still" crap. This isnt even hard! Far from it.

Yeh I agree entirely, I'm actually glad that enemies like Bursa's, Scrambus etc have been introduced cos they mean that players have to actually utilise all their frames skills and not just their usual damage ability. And also encourages better use of parkour and stealth throughout missions.

[CaterHowlett16]

four things

 

1. They are so much weaker than they were in false profit.

2. They are reprogrammable so they can actually fight for you.

3. They are extremely weak when attacked from behind. 

4. There is no tactics they use that hasn't been used before. shockwave? shockwave moa, AOE circle? sap osprey, explosive missiles? Grineer bombard.

 

I actually like these things being around. They make the mission easier.

[RealPandemonium]

@The people saying Bursas have a huge HP pool: While the Bursas have higher base health/shields than any Corpus mook and even have some [300 Ferrite] armor, their base level is higher so it doesn't scale up as much, comparatively.

 

Note that Bursas have 80% damage reduction on their legs and 90% damage reduction on their guns.  Shooting them in the back (the console and the area around it) deals expected damage, and is the only reasonable way to kill them without overpowered equipment.  Bursa health pools seem insurmountable until you shoot their back.  Bursas are also vulnerable to procs and shield-ignoring Toxin damage, allowing you to expedite their killing with the right tools.  

Edited February 15, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[DrFail]

Theres no difference in their AI between game modes.  FriendsOnly Online session, iv been running the event straight for days and im just baffled to the point of facepalm how anybody can percieve Bursa's as hard.

 

The only person i saw die was this rank 4 player who had no HP and Shields, who set off every alarm and got himself surrounded by like 6 Bursa's.   Is the Bursa the problem? Or should that player have been more careful in the first place with both A: Not setting camera's off and B: Letting himself somehow be cornered by such slow enemies, and C: Put some ### mods on!

 

The only way i personally can die from a bursa, is if i stand still, and afk for several minutes

 

 

Okay so, because I was curious about this and feel its something that should be looked at before productive discussion can happen, I loaded into the event under the Solo setting with a Nyx Prime. I intentionally triggered a Bursa and it started acting like I would expect it to, dashing around and launching stuff at me. I tried to copy being an idiot who doesnt know how to play videogames like you were doing on your video and it properly ohko'd me as should be expected.

 

Then I hit it with mind control and then instantly removed the control

 

The bursa became a lot more passive and I was able to circle it like you did in your video. I could still die, because squishy Nyx playing like an idiot, but it was much less instant. I tried to make it chase me out of the room at one point and it sat down and flat out would not chase me or shoot at me.

 

This was one run because it's all I had time for, so it's hardly conclusive. So, If you get the time, would you mind checking this on your end for me as well?  It doesn't change my own views about them being boring and overly bullet spongey, but if somethings breaking under certain conditions it could describe the discrepancy between people saying they're too hard and people saying they're stupid simple.

 

EDIT: If anyone else feels like checking this as well, feel free. Like I said, one run is hardly conclusive evidence and the bigger the sample size the better. My run could have just had weird AI luck or something.

Edited February 15, 2016 by DrFail

[SnakeWildlife]

At long range they take shots at you, at medium range they fire their special power (nully bubble or rip line etc) mixed in with shooting at you, at close range they turtle up, try to zip away or slam the ground in melee range to knock you away.

 

Using CC does not change their AI behaviour in any way.

Edited February 15, 2016 by SnakeWildlife

[EvilChaosKnight]

Oh mang, another person with Vaykor Hek, Tonkor, and such saying that lvl 15-35 Bursas are ok. Of course they are ok at that level, your gear is literally lvl 70+ if all mod points are combined.

 

Well, have you tried something outside of the meta cloud, like mid-lower tier of weapons? Something people exploring starchart could have.

And even on your vid, even under MPrime Bursa still turned around faster than you could shoot it in the back, so besides breaking its AI with a bug, your point is?

 

Oh, and btw. Have any of you managed to kill a Bursa on 2nd Sortie mission yesterday (Bonus points if without Tonkor)? Lvl 67 with advanced shields, where you gear actually belongs, you know?

 

UPD:

And since nobody replied still, I did a run with potato'd Karak modded vs Corpus (like I should have) and Excal with some mods but nothing too crazy.

1 single use of CC against Bursa (radial blind in my case) breaks its AI completely, they barely move or attack at all. Enemy "balanced" by the bug in AI programming, how wonderful. Without said paralyzed AI bug they are near-unbearable with node-appropriate gear.

Edited February 15, 2016 by EvilChaosKnight

[SnakeWildlife]

Oh mang, another person with Vaykor Hek, Tonkor, and such saying that lvl 15-35 Bursas are ok. Of course they are ok at that level, your gear is literally lvl 70+ if all mod points are combined.

 

Well, have you tried something outside of the meta cloud, like mid-lower tier of weapons? Something people exploring starchart could have.

And even on your vid, even under MPrime Bursa still turned around faster than you could shoot it in the back, so besides breaking its AI with a bug, your point is?

 

Oh, and btw. Have any of you managed to kill a Bursa on 2nd Sortie mission yesterday (Bonus points if without Tonkor)? Lvl 67 with advanced shields, where you gear actually belongs, you know?

 

Did you notice i wasnt firing my weapons? thats because i could have hanged around that bursa 'casually' for hours. And then move on without killing it.

 

Point is,   what gun i have is completely irrelevant. I could have killed it with a Lato, and you would still find something to complain about.

 

 

And im breaking the Ai with a bug?  What next will you imagine. No honestly, why dont you tell everybody here what bug im using. Because there isnt one...im just walking around it in a circle. You have a very active imagination.

 

Killing a Bursa on the 2nd Sortie mission can be done easily with any weapon. Even a Braton Mk-1.

Edited February 15, 2016 by SnakeWildlife

[EvilChaosKnight]

And im breaking the Ai with a bug?  What next will you imagine. No honestly, why dont you tell everybody here what bug im using. Because there isnt one...im just walking around it in a circle. You have a very active imagination.

Yep, sure. Imagination. This vid doesn't exist at all.

Last time I checked it was called using eyes.

Compare the behavior of Bursa before and after the blinds. Totally the same, right? Right?

[Diarist]

>Remove the one semi-interesting enemy design we've ever gotten ever.

 

What's wrong with you?

 

Just fix their AI from being complete &#! and they'd be 10/10.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Diarist

[tnccs215]

Ok it appears I've misjudged you slightly but I'm sure you can agree that your initlal reply to me was over the top sarcastic. But let's talk challenge because currently, there's very little of it in Warframe, yet along comes a tough opponent and everybody complains. The irony of this is that before this everyone complained that there's no challenge in the game, endless damage sponges are boring blah blah blah. Now along comes a revamped enemy that offers players an extra layer of difficulty and everybody loses their mind. The truth of it is that Warframe is a very easy game compared to a lot of the games out there, try Dark Souls for instance. Players are getting too soft and most of the new players are skipping the majority of content and rushing through the game, that a unit finally exists that can slow this down is a good thing. Just to experience it I went back and played some of the earlier Corpus missions(Mars) without Air Support, without OP weaponry and without an OP DPS frame. I still had only slight problems killing Bursa's and hacking the 1st one you kill takes a lot of the pressure off. I will agree that ciphers are handy(though cheap to obtain) but the early level ciphers are so quick to do that stopping the alarms isn't difficult.

Also what I neglected to tell you before is that I quit Warframe for over 2 years(studies) and only rejoined 6 months ago. I was MR4 when I left, I'm MR18 now and I've done all that under the new damage system so it can't be that hard. Paying attention to other players and not just playing Draco is all it takes. What I will agree with you on is that not enough is clearly explained, that's always been a problem and is unlikely to go away anytime soon.

Yes, you did. But I admit I was rather sarcastic and bitter myself. However, allow me to be just a bit more:

To be frank, I don't think the problem with bursas is the enormous amount of health, but more how they absurdly overwhelm you with all kind of damaging rockets, bubles, and worst of all: Stunning abilities.

Fact is, they are too fast, to unpredictable, and stun lock you too easily on a map that has very narrow corridors. This is beyond simply hard: It's overwhelming.

Should they be slower, their attacks more predictable, and NEVER come in groups, they would be much more realistic. Now you actually have a chance to deflect the or evade the shockwave before it stunlocks you over and over again. Now, if you get stunned, its on you pal.

But that's me. I'd rather have harder, but slower enemies that can be predictable, than to be constantly overwhelmed. This works better on melee, of course. Indeed, Dark souls series crosses my mind on this.

Yes, I do know dark souls and Warframe are as different as meat and fish. But you can always learn something. Dark souls feels punishing because, ultimately, its your fault if you die. The game gives you everything you need. If you can't do it, jokes on you.

Warframe, well.. Last time I soloed a sortie I was running towards extraction with my slow Equinox with max health, shields and 37,5% damage reduction at the farthest point of the aura, and I.... Die. I simply drop dead from a Ballista. No warning, no nothing. I literally heard the shot and than my dear Equinox was dead on the floor. "Realistic"? Yes. Engaging? No. Fair? No.

I do know Dark Souls isn't has overwhelming since 90% of enemies are melee attackers, so I understand perfectly well why its hard to be "fair" when your pawns have a gun.

Oh well, I digress.

Short story: I don't think the problem is health per se, I think the problem are overwhelming attacks that effectively prevent you from defending or answering yourself until you die.

That was on this very thread. The irony.

Anyway, aside from that: Yes, I cannot disagree warframe is extremely unchallenging. However, in a game, you are given tools to do a certain action. In this case, you are given warframes and weapons to kill mobs. Therefore, when something isn't challenging, it can be due to the tools given being too powerful, or the enemies too easy.

And that's the catch. Yes, there is no doubt mobs become more and more cannon fodder the more you progress the star chart. But are enemies trully the only problem? Aren't we being given tools that are, quite simply, too powerful for the job?isn't Exalted Blade, a cheap ability of a STARTER frame, capable of mowning through enemies up to level 50 with barely any mod, and way past that with Good mods?

Isnt the tigris capable of one shotting some level 30 enemies without any mod at all? And dont mods themselves, like serration and split chamber, powerful beyond redemption?

Yes, warframe as not that much variety of enemies, but that matters not when you can cut them like toilet paper, not because they are weak, but because your equipment is strong.

Thats the Point. A while ago, I started a new account, to accompain my sister has an equal. And you know something funny? When your equipment is so basic, when your warframe hasn't been forma 4 times, warframe is challenging. We, as seasoned players, are capable of clearing an extermination in less than 2 minutes. But there, on Venus, just me and my sister, we took 10 minutes. And they were challenging 10 minutes, specially for her, who didnt had the hours of experience I do!

And thats the Point. Im not opposed to Bursas. To be honest, I Love that another strong enemy is being added, specially to corpus, who barely have tanks. I like their designs and powers. But I can detect a bad design when I see it. Eternal stunlocking? Enemy that deal high damage, has lots of health, can tank from the front, has debugging capabilities, and qick reflexes? And appearing, not one, but many?

You know, yes, many, many people in the forums says this game isn't challenging. Yes, many cry out when a new challenging enemy appears. But those people who cry it is not challenging isn't the newbie going up the star chart. It is us, the ones with 3 forma sancti Tigris. Us, with maxed Narrow Minded's on our Nova's. Us, with 250% range on our irradiating disarm Loki. Us, who have already gained enough experience and equipment to call unchalleging what is challenging to those who don't have it.

I agree that removal of Bursas is too much. But that's it. You can't and shouldn't enforce a new challenge for those who still find challenging what you already ind boring. Strong squads of Bursas on Sorties? Bring 'em on. On Tactical Alerts? Sure, why not? On Raids? Of course.

But not on Venus. Not on Jupiter. Or, better saying, not so ridiculously powerful as they are.

We find them challenging because our experience and equipment make our Tenno gods compared to their enemies. But that's OUR. Not others.

[SnakeWildlife]

Yep, sure. Imagination. This vid doesn't exist at all.

Last time I checked it was called using eyes.

Compare the behavior of Bursa before and after the blinds. Totally the same, right? Right?

 

The Ai is exactly the same throughout that entire video -.-  at the first half of the video the player is in front of the bursa allowing it to make attacks, at the second half, the player switches to running around in a circle, to which the bursa in unable to spin enough to keep up.

 

THATS HOW BURSA AI, IS.

 

Also, using a low powered Karak, proves how easy they are. Theres no way you can convince the majority of the playerbase here who know for a fact Bursa's are easy to deal with.

 

Theyre here to stay so i suggest you get used to them.

Edited February 15, 2016 by SnakeWildlife

[EvilChaosKnight]

The Ai is exactly the same throughout that entire video -.-  at the first half of the video the player is in front of the bursa allowing it to make attacks, at the second half, the player switches to running around in a circle, to which the bursa in unable to spin enough to keep up.

 

THATS HOW BURSA AI, IS.

"It takes a strong man to deny what's right in front of him"

 

I am not alone either.

Okay so, because I was curious about this and feel its something that should be looked at before productive discussion can happen, I loaded into the event under the Solo setting with a Nyx Prime. I intentionally triggered a Bursa and it started acting like I would expect it to, dashing around and launching stuff at me. I tried to copy being an idiot who doesnt know how to play videogames like you were doing on your video and it properly ohko'd me as should be expected.

 

Then I hit it with mind control and then instantly removed the control

 

The bursa became a lot more passive and I was able to circle it like you did in your video. I could still die, because squishy Nyx playing like an idiot, but it was much less instant. I tried to make it chase me out of the room at one point and it sat down and flat out would not chase me or shoot at me.

[bubbabenali]

Video response:

 

No S#&$ Sherlock, CC frames have no problems dealing with Bursas and put a MR12/ Dojo tech weapon on top for good messure.

 

The problem is, that new players on Europa (where they spawn the earliest, I tink) neither do have reach for any of the CC frames nor the weapons or the mods you used in your smugfest.

Edited February 15, 2016 by bubbabenali

[IceColdHawk]

No S#&$ Sherlock, CC frames have no problems dealing with Bursas and put a MR12/ Dojo tech weapon on top for good messure.

 

The problem is, that new players on Europa (where they spawn the earliest, I tink) neither do have reach for any of the CC frames nor the weapons or the mods you used in your smugfest.

And i guess new players also don't have enough power and resistances to win against a napalm, right? Let's remove them too while we're at it.

[EvilChaosKnight]

It takes idiots to make topics like these -.-

 

If you like standing still and 'easy' then i recommend playing Engineer on TF2.

 

No youre not alone, youre just MOSTLY alone. The community isnt interested in removing Bursa's.

My my, don't lose temper like that. Personal attacks might warrant some appropriate response action. In fact, looking back at your attitude, they already did.

 

It also takes a strong man to speak for the whole community and put words in other people's mouth.

- I am not interested in removing Bursas, show me where I said that. I am interested in their nerf. That "weak Karak" had full Serration, Split Chamber and 3 elementals. MORE than enough to deal with lvl 30 mooks.

- When I referenced that I wasn't alone I was talking about the AI bug you desperately try to swipe under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist.

Edited February 15, 2016 by EvilChaosKnight

[Chipputer]

And i guess new players also don't have enough power and resistances to win against a napalm, right? Let's remove them too while we're at it.

Are you missing all of the posts where even high MR and well geared players are pointing out that Bursas are incredibly durable, compared to any other enemy of equal level, including Bombards and Heavy Gunners? Durable to the point that some low rank and low geared players were shut down, entirely, once one spawned?

 

Or are we pretending they're absolutely fine and it's boiling down to a mechanical issue, instead of what's actually happening?

[bubbabenali]

And i guess new players also don't have enough power and resistances to win against a napalm, right? Let's remove them too while we're at it.

I'm not saying to remove them, but it may be a bit less punishing if they spawned in fewer numbers on low level planetes.

And maybe to tone down the aromr a bit - not everyone has the capabilitys to mod for corrosive and punch trough at that level, for example.

[IceColdHawk]

Are you missing all of the posts where even high MR and well geared players are pointing out that Bursas are incredibly durable, compared to any other enemy of equal level, including Bombards and Heavy Gunners? Durable to the point that some low rank and low geared players were shut down, entirely, once one spawned?

 

Or are we pretending they're absolutely fine and it's boiling down to a mechanical issue, instead of what's actually happening?

In a world where sapping ospreys, nullifiers, one-shotting ballistas and tanky/heavy-dps napalms appear, i can't consider bursas to be a major threat. Sorry.

[EvilChaosKnight]

In a world where sapping ospreys, nullifiers, one-shotting ballistas and tanky/heavy-dps napalms appear, i can't consider bursas to be a major threat. Sorry.

One little problem. All of the above become a real problem either high in the survival (even lvl 40-something ballista can't 1HKO my Nekros) or on Sorties.

Not the case for Bursas though.

Edited February 15, 2016 by EvilChaosKnight

[Chipputer]

In a world where sapping ospreys, nullifiers, one-shotting ballistas and tanky/heavy-dps napalms appear, i can't consider bursas to be a major threat. Sorry.

What does any of that have to do with what I posted?

 

Take off your end-game glasses and gain some perspective.

[-Himari-]

Looks like this thread stepped into the wrong neighborhood. If we cannot remain respectful to one another this will happen. Whatever feedback that can salvageable from this thread will be.

 

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