Steps to balance without losing Warframe's "feel"

[Mr.Lube]

2 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

CC is king.

and isn't infinite scaling already a way to force players out? ( at some point enemies are too hard to kill = have to leave?)

 

honestly, PVE is always doomed to get boring much faster than PVP, where there are almost endless permutations to possible movesets.

Infinite scaling is an un-fun way to force certain frames (those who don't have super-CC) out of the mission.

[hukurokuju5]

48 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

Infinite scaling is an un-fun way to force certain frames (those who don't have super-CC) out of the mission.

infinite scaling forces out certain frames more quickly than others, CC/damage reduction being the factor.  

How is being forced to leave a mission supposed to be fun?  If you are running an endless mission for a long time, I think it is presupposed that you are doing it for the sole purpose of facing infinite scaling enemies.

regardless of whether of not you were to cap enemy level, frames that have hard CC will always outlast other frames that don't because CC bypasses infinite number scaling by reducing/negating enemy damage output, and thereby, negating the offensive portion of enemy scaling.

 

I think that infinite scaling is not the real issue.  The issue is what is actually scaling.  

It is player interaction with enemies that gets dull because the only thing that scales for enemies is HP, armor, and damage.  simple scaling= simple gameplay.  Skill and tactics are not really a factor, and yet, those two things are the things that make PVP genre games more interesting.  

In PVE, enemies fall into preset patterns that become predictable, which results in player skill not being a necessity. (skill is a more impactful factor for chess than it is for tic tac toe)

 

skill and tactics factors are = player aim, skill management, player builds(mods)

enemy scaling = HP, armor, damage

 

edit;

 

now that i think of it, maybe what is un-fun thing about infinite scaling is the enemy damage scaling.  Your point about frames without CC being unplayable at certain points in enemy scaling could be solved with a cap/adjustment on enemy damage scaling that gets rid of players being 1 shot.

at a certain point, enemies will begin to 1 shot players.  CC is the only thing that negates/reduces enemy damage scaling, allowing players to ignore/survive the scaling.   IF enemy damage was capped, frames that do not have good CC will still be able to play without getting 1 shot...  warframe scaling would have to be adressed though, super tanky frames would be even more tanky with this change

Edited April 28, 2016 by hukurokuju5

[Currilicious]

Playing a little devil's advocate here.

How is forcing out certain frames at certain thresholds a bad thing? Let's see here.

1. All players have access to all frames with exception to certain Prime ones.
2. Prime frames have the exact toolset as their non-Prime counterparts.
3. So essentially, Frames are like classes in classic RPGs.
4. Certain classes are better/worse at certain scenarios.

Here is the catch.

Since not all classes will be equally effective in taking out an extra tanky mob or be able to survive high damage, would it make sense to augment every "underpowered" class to be at the same level?

Or perhaps have content scale to a ceiling and this ceiling is determined by the lowest common denominator? In this case, a Frame without CC or invulnerability mechanics.

I would argue it would take both. Scaling has to be capped on non-infinite missions (this is already somewhat done) and some Frames need some tweaks to their toolset (this is in progress I believe) to make them viable for this statistical ceiling.

Which brings me to my second point.

People serious enough about this game complaining about CC in this thread, from their own perspectives, seem to forget one thing. If you're here, you would also probably have researched and tested a lot of mechanics. You would also know when to CC and how to CC to devastating effect. Hence, the feeling that CC absolutely demolishes mobs at any level. This is true with your understanding of the game.

But not all players are like you. There are people who are at a lower "skill" level. In fact, I would argue, 80 maybe 90 percent do not play this game at half the skill-level of most people on these boards. 

Now I'm not against making the game less of a snooze-fest. But from experience, I've met far too many, less knowledgeable players, than good ones. More like 1 to 10 ratio. So if things were to go your way, then from my guesstimate, 9/10 players would most likely be playing in frustration.

Now where does that take us?

Edited April 28, 2016 by Currilicious

[Mr.Lube]

13 hours ago, Currilicious said:

Playing a little devil's advocate here.

How is forcing out certain frames at certain thresholds a bad thing? Let's see here.

1. All players have access to all frames with exception to certain Prime ones.
2. Prime frames have the exact toolset as their non-Prime counterparts.
3. So essentially, Frames are like classes in classic RPGs.
4. Certain classes are better/worse at certain scenarios.

Here is the catch.

Since not all classes will be equally effective in taking out an extra tanky mob or be able to survive high damage, would it make sense to augment every "underpowered" class to be at the same level?

Or perhaps have content scale to a ceiling and this ceiling is determined by the lowest common denominator? In this case, a Frame without CC or invulnerability mechanics.

I would argue it would take both. Scaling has to be capped on non-infinite missions (this is already somewhat done) and some Frames need some tweaks to their toolset (this is in progress I believe) to make them viable for this statistical ceiling.

Which brings me to my second point.

People serious enough about this game complaining about CC in this thread, from their own perspectives, seem to forget one thing. If you're here, you would also probably have researched and tested a lot of mechanics. You would also know when to CC and how to CC to devastating effect. Hence, the feeling that CC absolutely demolishes mobs at any level. This is true with your understanding of the game.

But not all players are like you. There are people who are at a lower "skill" level. In fact, I would argue, 80 maybe 90 percent do not play this game at half the skill-level of most people on these boards. 

Now I'm not against making the game less of a snooze-fest. But from experience, I've met far too many, less knowledgeable players, than good ones. More like 1 to 10 ratio. So if things were to go your way, then from my guesstimate, 9/10 players would most likely be playing in frustration.

Now where does that take us?

Okay, you've made a couple of interesting points here.

 

• Frames are like classes and are better/worse in different scenarios.

     This is true to some extent, each frame has their own little niche and role to play. The thing is that the game's current "meta" revolves completely around avoiding enemies all together, whether it be through heavy CC, invisibility, or invulnerability. Bumping up lesser-used frames to "meta" standards would essentially mean that every frame would need one of those 3 attributes which seems terribly bland. Which is why the title is "Change over Conformity". Change the way the core game-play works so we can have Frames with different roles come together to form a unit.

 

• You would also know when to CC and how to CC to devastating effect.

     There is never a bad time to CC. Once you hit a certain point in the game, there is no thinking when it comes to whether or not it's a good time to use an ability. You come to the point where you are just refreshing its timer and keeping it up all the time. As for the "how" it really all depends on you're equipment. Basing your build around the ability that keeps you alive in the most effective/efficient way is the best way to go most of the time. You don't need to really worry about doing damage with your abilities since damage doesn't scale well. 

[Currilicious]

1 hour ago, Mr.Lube said:

Frames are like classes and are better/worse in different scenarios.

     This is true to some extent, each frame has their own little niche and role to play. The thing is that the game's current "meta" revolves completely around avoiding enemies all together, whether it be through heavy CC, invisibility, or invulnerability. Bumping up lesser-used frames to "meta" standards would essentially mean that every frame would need one of those 3 attributes which seems terribly bland. Which is why the title is "Change over Conformity". Change the way the core game-play works so we can have Frames with different roles come together to form a unit.

 

This (underlined) is exactly what I was referring to.

The way the game is currently, it is very casual friendly. Even Sorties if you know what you're doing. So the question would be how big a change?

You don't need too much coordination or planning to succeed. You do your thing and if your teammates are also doing their thing, it's unlikely you'll fail. Besides, as I pointed out all players have access to the same tools.

Thus, my second point. I doubted that it would hit home and it is exactly as expected. It's unlikely people in this thread would see things from the perspective of players that play this game at a far lower level of intensity. In other words, playing for casual fun.

It isn't conformity. These mechanics, though simplistic, allows the game to be as inclusive as possible. When the mechanics are straightforward like Frost for defense, Nova for slow, et cetera, it lets most players access most content with little to no barrier. Remember, not everyone do extensive research and not everyone expend considerable effort in perfecting their strategy and optimizing stats.

You might argue that these mentality towards games defeats the whole purpose of actually playing. In reality, most gamers these days are adult gamers.

 

1 hour ago, Mr.Lube said:

• You would also know when to CC and how to CC to devastating effect.

     There is never a bad time to CC. Once you hit a certain point in the game, there is no thinking when it comes to whether or not it's a good time to use an ability. You come to the point where you are just refreshing its timer and keeping it up all the time. As for the "how" it really all depends on you're equipment. Basing your build around the ability that keeps you alive in the most effective/efficient way is the best way to go most of the time. You don't need to really worry about doing damage with your abilities since damage doesn't scale well. 

Actually, a CC bot is pointless with no DPS. There is enough leeway across 4 equipped items for effective CC and decent DPS. If you're talking about players that only concentrate in maintaining CC then I think the game is fine as it. This way, there are "roles" in a cell. Besides all players have access to all Frames. There is no exclusiveness here. Some Frames may be more in demand due to their roles but that's it.

However, if you're talking about players that can pull off CCs and DPSes effectively, then yes some CCs are absolutely OP, but only in the right hands. As you've pointed out above most people are not like that. So I don't think certain CCs being OP in the hands of, say the top 5% that really know their game, would really be a deal breaker.

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Currilicious

[Voltage]

I think people need to link this post into their Devstream questions and tweet it at Rebecca, Steve, and other staff. Your post hits the nail right on the head. If DE does not make a change fast, they are going to create a skyscraper on a thin foundation that will downfall at a moments notice. There will be a point on this road of broken enemy scaling that will cause Warframe's downfall.

 

You can link Enemy scaling to a majority of the MAJOR problems:

1) CC is always needed

2) Focus system -> stems off xp system -> stems from enemy scaling

3) Mastery rank issue -> spam CC -> need xp -> poor enemy scaling to get xp

4) Draco / loot cave for xp

5) Endless missions/sorties awful design

the list keeps going ...

 

This game is reaching a critical moment where U19 is launching and Damage 3.0 is right around the corner. DE really needs this brought to their attention.

 

 

[EgAlia]

43 minutes ago, -BE-VoltageKg said:

This game is reaching a critical moment where U19 is launching and Damage 3.0 is right around the corner. DE really needs this brought to their attention.

 

 

"There is a problem with serial escalation in Warframe’s balance. Mid-level enemies one-shot players due to uneven scaling, so players develop ability-spamming builds to become immortal, so new enemies (like Nullifiers) are released with CC-immunity or anti-caster mechanics, and now Miter is gaining an augment to pop Nullifier bubbles. This escalation creates frustrating scenarios where players who don’t resort to “cheap” gameplay (and frames that don’t have “I Win” buttons) simply cannot keep up in high-level content like Sorties or Trials. Have you considered longer term solutions to this power creep, like a “stat squish” on enemies and reduced energy availability for players, over Nullifiers? " (Poster Archwizard)

This guy said alot about the problems taken up in this thread, he got about 100 likes so I have big hopes they will talk about this in the next devstream.

 

 

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, EgAlia said:

"There is a problem with serial escalation in Warframe’s balance. Mid-level enemies one-shot players due to uneven scaling, so players develop ability-spamming builds to become immortal, so new enemies (like Nullifiers) are released with CC-immunity or anti-caster mechanics, and now Miter is gaining an augment to pop Nullifier bubbles. This escalation creates frustrating scenarios where players who don’t resort to “cheap” gameplay (and frames that don’t have “I Win” buttons) simply cannot keep up in high-level content like Sorties or Trials. Have you considered longer term solutions to this power creep, like a “stat squish” on enemies and reduced energy availability for players, over Nullifiers? " (Poster Archwizard)

This guy said alot about the problems taken up in this thread, he got about 100 likes so I have big hopes they will talk about this in the next devstream.

 

 

I am praying that they address this question. Archwizard has a good rep with these sort of things.

Hopefully Scott doesn't blow it off with the usual "Yea, we're looking into it".

[Omnimorph]

On 25 February 2016 at 0:54 AM, Mr.Lube said:

Warframe's "combat" does not feel like combat anymore.

 

 

Please post your opinions on this topic. Do you agree or disagree? I would like to get a discussion going and get lots of feedback regarding this issue.

In part I agree, in part not.  The part I agree with is that when I look at really old Warframe content on Youtube, I actually think I prefer the somewhat slower-paced, more mysterious vibe of it, to the frenetic stuff we have today.  The frenetic stuff is fun, don't get me wrong, but I can't help feeling that DE have gone somewhat astray in making it all too frenetic, thus making individual encounters less "meaningful".  Mobs generally are just things you mow down that are in the way; they don't feel like difficult, meaningful encounters (as in something like Dark Souls, say).  There's a balance to be struck, obviously, but I feel DE have gone too far down the route of throwing everything and the kitchen sink into the game, thus cheapening the encounters with mobs in some ways.

The part I disagree with is that the scaling content is "Warframe's high level content".  It is not, it is PLACEHOLDER CONTENT, just to give players something to do until an endgame proper with capped enemies comes into the game (which I presume we're seeing the start of with the Sentients, who are obviously in one way or another the endgame enemy proper, and have always been planned to be).

So I think the term "power creep" is and has always been out of place in relation to talking about Warframe at the moment.  The term "power creep" has always been something that's relevant to a game's endgame proper, and Warframe has had no endgame proper, it's an unfinished game, still in beta, and that scaling Void content is and has always been something just to do in the meanwhile, something that presents a challenge that can hold players' interest. 

I actually don't think DE have ever been concerned about what goes on in the scaling content much past lvl 100-120 mobs.  The fact that Sorties culminate in that level shows to me that DE are and have always been concerned with balance only up to that level, and I think the Sentients will be around that level plus with more tricksiness and special items like the new superweapon that need to be used at certain points.

[BlackCoMerc]

17 hours ago, EgAlia said:

"There is a problem with serial escalation in Warframe’s balance. Mid-level enemies one-shot players due to uneven scaling, so players develop ability-spamming builds to become immortal, so new enemies (like Nullifiers) are released with CC-immunity or anti-caster mechanics, and now Miter is gaining an augment to pop Nullifier bubbles. This escalation creates frustrating scenarios where players who don’t resort to “cheap” gameplay (and frames that don’t have “I Win” buttons) simply cannot keep up in high-level content like Sorties or Trials. Have you considered longer term solutions to this power creep, like a “stat squish” on enemies and reduced energy availability for players, over Nullifiers? " (Poster Archwizard)

 

 

This needs to be reposted in a new thread weekly. It's a perfect summation of the core issue.

Right now it's as if one team creates Warframes and weapons, another does enemy design, and the two are in silent competition. With players just along for the ride.

Take Miter: DE is basically making it a mandatory weapon for high level Void and Corpus Sorties. Which is, yet again, bad design.

This constant, escalating Cold War between the two design teams NEEDS to stop. Neither of them will win. Together, though, they WILL kill your game.

[Mr.Lube]

On 4/28/2016 at 6:57 PM, -BE-VoltageKg said:

I think people need to link this post into their Devstream questions and tweet it at Rebecca, Steve, and other staff. Your post hits the nail right on the head. If DE does not make a change fast, they are going to create a skyscraper on a thin foundation that will downfall at a moments notice. There will be a point on this road of broken enemy scaling that will cause Warframe's downfall.

 

You can link Enemy scaling to a majority of the MAJOR problems:

1) CC is always needed

2) Focus system -> stems off xp system -> stems from enemy scaling

3) Mastery rank issue -> spam CC -> need xp -> poor enemy scaling to get xp

4) Draco / loot cave for xp

5) Endless missions/sorties awful design

the list keeps going ...

 

This game is reaching a critical moment where U19 is launching and Damage 3.0 is right around the corner. DE really needs this brought to their attention.

 

 

Thanks for supporting the cause. Hopefully U19's Starchart 3.0 will address some of these issues.

[Evanescent]

Hear, hear!

[Mr.Lube]

On 4/29/2016 at 1:29 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

This needs to be reposted in a new thread weekly. It's a perfect summation of the core issue.

Right now it's as if one team creates Warframes and weapons, another does enemy design, and the two are in silent competition. With players just along for the ride.

Take Miter: DE is basically making it a mandatory weapon for high level Void and Corpus Sorties. Which is, yet again, bad design.

This constant, escalating Cold War between the two design teams NEEDS to stop. Neither of them will win. Together, though, they WILL kill your game.

Exactly. I feel like every time DE releases an update they take 1 step forward and 4 steps back. It's really a damn shame.

[Mr.Lube]

I'm going to start keeping track of upcoming Warframe reworks and seeing if they make the frame more interesting, or just add CC to an underused ability. (Vauban)

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, Mr.Lube said:

or just add CC to an underused ability. (Vauban)

It actually fits Vauban's theme, however. It's not like they just looked at Oberon and said, "every time you heal others you also blind enemies in an arbitrary radius around them." They took a frame that's built around the idea of CC and gave him some more mobile CC that, in all honesty, isn't even that great-- it's just gimmicky fun.

[Mr.Lube]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

It actually fits Vauban's theme, however. It's not like they just looked at Oberon and said, "every time you heal others you also blind enemies in an arbitrary radius around them." They took a frame that's built around the idea of CC and gave him some more mobile CC that, in all honesty, isn't even that great-- it's just gimmicky fun.

Sure, it fits Vauban's theme. I'm not saying that it's a bad ability, it's actually his most interesting one since it requires you to plan ahead. The thing is, after a couple of weeks when the "hype" wears off people will go back to using Bastille and Vortex only.

And on the topic of Oberon. They basically did what you just said to his ultimate when he got his "buff". All they did was slap 2 random CC's on it to make it viable (blind/radiation proc). This is another older example of the terrible enemy design DE has to work around when creating frames. 

[Chipputer]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

after a couple of weeks when the "hype" wears off people will go back to using Bastille and Vortex only.

A couple of weeks? Try a couple of hours. :P

 

4 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

Oberon. They basically did what you just said to his ultimate when he got his "buff". All they did was slap 2 random CC's on it to make it viable (blind/radiation proc).

Yeah. This is true. I think the blinding part is unnecessary, but I feel like Reckoning with a knockdown and rad proc is a good place for it to be. Good frame based AoE shutdown.

[Mr.Lube]

Just now, Chipputer said:

A couple of weeks? Try a couple of hours. :P

I was being generous and trying not to sound like a total cynic, but you are right.

1 minute ago, Chipputer said:

Yeah. This is true. I think the blinding part is unnecessary, but I feel like Reckoning with a knockdown and rad proc is a good place for it to be. Good frame based AoE shutdown.

I wish that I was able to do damage with my abilities. There shouldn't need to be a secondary utility effect in place for when the ability damage drops off, it just seems really lazy.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 3/3/2016 at 3:24 PM, Currilicious said:

The main issue here isn't with the abilities. People get pigeon-holed into a particular build is because of either efficiency or it's simply mandatory. It's the mandatory part that is the issue. Like any team based game, once strict coordination is required, people tend to gravitate towards a viable solution that has the most lenient execution curve, in this case mass CC. This is true for most RPGs out there. You want to raid the highest level dungeon, you build your gear to fill a role, often a build only viable in certain situations (IE: 2s EV Trin, Link completely gimped, Bless half-gimped).

Yep. So the devs take out CC and AoEs to compensate, then even that isn't enough, as God Builds will continue to exist even if a devs removed the mods, and the same rat race will be played regardless.

Then people ask, "Where's the fun?"

I like things simple -- blasting Infested into orbit. That's fun to me. But another guy will see that boring "no skill" game play, and the usual thing happens the forums light up like a Christmas tree of nerf this or buff that, so another class/frame ability/weapon can repeat the nerf/buff cycle again.

As long as group play is allowed that will be the bane. Yet we have to play in groups to get items only group content contains, though. It's self-defeating in the end and yet another game is polluted with unhappiness, when games are suppose to be happier.

[Mr.Lube]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

As long as group play is allowed that will be the bane. Yet we have to play in groups to get items only group content contains, though. It's self-defeating in the end and yet another game is polluted with unhappiness, when games are suppose to be happier.

You're right, games are supposed to be happy and fun. But it's not fun when I most the majority of time in game watching instead of playing because the entire enemy force is completely immobilized. 

[Currilicious]

3 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Yep. So the devs take out CC and AoEs to compensate, then even that isn't enough, as God Builds will continue to exist even if a devs removed the mods, and the same rat race will be played regardless.

Then people ask, "Where's the fun?"

I like things simple -- blasting Infested into orbit. That's fun to me. But another guy will see that boring "no skill" game play, and the usual thing happens the forums light up like a Christmas tree of nerf this or buff that, so another class/frame ability/weapon can repeat the nerf/buff cycle again.

As long as group play is allowed that will be the bane. Yet we have to play in groups to get items only group content contains, though. It's self-defeating in the end and yet another game is polluted with unhappiness, when games are suppose to be happier.

Hey I hear ya man. I'm of the opinion that nerfing should only be an option if all else fails.

In fact, I believe a more sophisticated grouping mechanics need to be created to ease the process of finding like minded individuals for a group. This will alleviate the clash of playing cultures that breeds most of the frustration and take nothing from players, stats wise.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 minute ago, Currilicious said:

Hey I hear ya man. I'm of the opinion that nerfing should only be an option if all else fails.

In fact, I believe a more sophisticated grouping mechanics need to be created to ease the process of finding like minded individuals for a group. This will alleviate the clash of playing cultures that breeds most of the frustration and take nothing from players, stats wise.

+1

Different strokes for different folks. Power achievers can have their cake, and soloers and lore hounds there's, too.

[ReshyShira]

Warframe suffers from being a game where the difficulty is largely derived from numbers rather than tactics.  Warframe is not what I would called a "Skill Indexed" game, it's all about adding numbers together to beat the enemy's numbers.  There's not a whole lot of weapons or abilities that reward player skill.  The relentless hoard gameplay removes any semblance of strategic thought from the game

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

30 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Warframe suffers from being a game where the difficulty is largely derived from numbers rather than tactics.  Warframe is not what I would called a "Skill Indexed" game, it's all about adding numbers together to beat the enemy's numbers.  There's not a whole lot of weapons or abilities that reward player skill.  The relentless hoard gameplay removes any semblance of strategic thought from the game

It has too, unfortunately, because the average PuG races through content. Just t-r-y to get one PuG that will do a strat (like CC A; shoot B; go around C), and without someone raging even.

Tactical game play goes with friends or solo. Public groups have to account for high pings; AFKers; those who love to stand in fire (then scream about "no heals"); and the huntard-Rambo-IRONMAN, who pulls the entire room so everyone is killed, just for laughs (and the rest of the team rages).

[(XBOX)Gamehowitzer]

1 hour ago, ReshyShira said:

Warframe suffers from being a game where the difficulty is largely derived from numbers rather than tactics.  Warframe is not what I would called a "Skill Indexed" game, it's all about adding numbers together to beat the enemy's numbers.  There's not a whole lot of weapons or abilities that reward player skill.  The relentless hoard gameplay removes any semblance of strategic thought from the game

He makes a good point. Alot of the gameplay is extremely stale. if enemies are alerted, they should still need to confirm line of sight before firing at you. Most of the time theyll snap to your direction and fire. Now that would be a mechanic that makes hiding around corners a smart tactic as you could catch them by surprise, even if theyre alerted. This would open up alot of strategies. Another example would be ballistas or sniper type enemies. They should target you when youre either making alot of noise(guns), kill a ton of enemies, or use an AOE warframe ability. And run away when youre close. Although he makes a good point, that doesnt mean that there isnt ANY strategic thought in gameplay. there is, its just very limited. 

(forgot to say that regardless of how well you may be hidden, the enemy homes in on your location. even if youre completely out of sight, they will gather.)

Edited May 19, 2016 by (XB1)Gamehowitzer