We are too OP... OP is not fun.

[egregiousRac]

5 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

We are not overpowered. Certain frames are overpowered.

If you have ever done a Nyx/Loki, Mesa, Frost and Trinity Interception or Defense, you know what I mean here. Certain frames have introduced Crowd Control abilities sufficient to lock down entire rooms or even entire maps. To compensate, DE has introduced Nullifying effects to essentially make us NOT HAVE powers at all.

The problem now is that we have gone from being overpowered with only certain frames, to having ZERO power AT ALL. NOt only does this make no sense lore wise; it is frustrating and unfun. 

The degree to which Corrupted Mods have allowed for increases to Range and Casting Frequency, and energy restore items have perpetuated this, has given rise to a power creep so massive DE is struggling to introduce real difficult without excessively cheap tactics. 

The real problem is Fleeting Expertise coupled with Overextended or Narrow Minded or other corrupted mods. Add in Energy Pizza and constant Orb drops, and you have a recipe for keeping overpowered warframes overpowered throughout entire missions. Fix this, and you can rebalance the entire game around this fixed state in a fair and reasonable manner.

That's my point of contention. Enemies aren't the problem, frames aren't the problem. Mods and creeping weapon stats are the problem.

A slow weapon such as a bow, sniper, or shotgun should one-shot as long as it is built for the level you are fighting. A machinegun that puts out twenty hitscan rounds per second with punch through should not be one-shotting past level 20. Period. All that does is negate the usefulness of the slower weapons and necessitate methods of applying cheap difficulty.

Edited March 8, 2016 by egregiousRac

[Mephiste]

1 hour ago, TheHun7er said:

Exactly! I do not find killing each enemy in one shot being fun. I've literally "nerfed" many of my weapons, to enjoy game a bit more. For example I really love to use my Braton Prime, because (presumably) it's not OP. (I do not use absurdly hilarious weapons such as Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, Boltor Prime, Soma Prime etc. Hell! I hate it when people in my team use them! Especially Synoid Simulor...) So yeah, of course I was wrong. Modded correctly Braton Prime easily kills each enemy, no matter if it's Sortie or 40+ waves on T4 Survival. (And I know, Prime... slightly better version)  So what I did?  I removed all of buffing mods (excluding Serration) to enjoy this weapon. To feel the fun! Now my current build is: Maxed Serration, Speed Trigger, Rifle Ammo Mutation, Fast Hands + Vital Sense. And it's awesome! Finally most enemies are challenging. Now when I see enemy (Rank 45+) I'm scared as f*ck! What's more interesting, DE is adding a lot of new weapons that are even more powerful.

Something needs to be changed. Some people may like it to be OP (for whatever reason). Some people think they are the best in the world by killing thousands of AI, that can't even shoot them back, because everything we use is so powerful. And I know I'm not alone in such thinking. Now, I know the solution for this might be very difficult, but here's what i think could help. Obviously, nerfing all the weapons and mods would be very very dumb move. Do not touch them! :P However, "buffing" enemies could help in this situation. Maybe add a lot more armor? A lot more health and shields? This might help. You can also add overheating system to weapons, so you'll have to either switch or use your melee more often. 'Cause let's be honest, we only use secondary when we ran out of ammo in our primary. :'D 

 

This is my opinion. 

Think you're OP? Think you're tough, huh?

Level 100 Bursa says Hello.

[Hemmo67]

*comes in as limbo*

*banishes OP*

*enters rifts*

*casts rift surge*

*takes aim with vulkar wraith*

and thats how u make gamebreaking 2,5million hits :P

and trust me it's fun as hek ^^

[Mephiste]

1 hour ago, TheHun7er said:

No. I can not really see any fraction as "OP".

Really? Because right now, the Corpus are dominating in terms of power. Both with Combas, Nullifiers and Bursas.

Also Sapper Ospreys, god damn Sapper Ospreys.

[ngrazer]

For those who hate being OP... go play some Dark Souls.
 

[Lord_Datastorm]

1 hour ago, TheHun7er said:

 

 

This is my opinion. 

Your pic above looks like from the place on the relay, what level were the enemy, level 1? How about a pic from in game ... say sortie part 3 vs corpus and the supercharged bursa corps.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Lord_Datastorm
spelling

[CaterHowlett16]

24 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

 The problem is that it just makes those enemies look stupid. If you are one-shotting massive rocket troopers (Napalms and Bombards) but you can't one-shot a guy with a boomerang (Drahk Masters) because of arbitrary damage mitigation, that simply doesn't make sense.

Current status of the factions (merging replacements and such):

Grineer:

• Fodder enemies - 5 Melee, 8 Ranged, 4 Heavy
• Mitigation - Guardsman, Drahk Master, Hyekka Master
• Outliers - Prosecutor, Manic

Corpus:

• Fodder - 3 Light Crewmen, 1 Heavy Crewman, 1 Melee, 5 Moa, 5 Flying
• Mitigation - Oxium Osprey, Nullifier
• Outliers - Bursa, Comba/Scrambus

Infested:

• Fodder - 3 Bipeds, 1 Quadruped, 5 Crawlers, 1 Flying, 4 Heavys
• Mitigation - 2 Moa, Ancient Healer
• Outliers - Juggernaut

Orokin:

• Fodder - 1 Melee, 2 Ranged, 2 Heavy, 1 Moa, 1 Flying
• Mitigation - Ancient, Nullifier
• Outliers - Vor

They all follow the same pattern. The vast majority of enemies can be killed instantly (though they are a threat if not killed due to the aforementioned lack of survivability creep), a couple recent enemies have special mechanics that normalize their TTK somewhat across power levels, and a few miniboss-style enemies that are entirely outliers.

Yep I agree completely, but I'm pretty sure prosecutors aren't a big enough threat to be considered outliers. Aren't they just glorified 

Your preaching to the choir. You need to tell this to OP because I don't think he understands it. 

[egregiousRac]

7 minutes ago, Mephiste said:

Think you're OP? Think you're tough, huh?

Level 100 Bursa says Hello.

 

6 minutes ago, Mephiste said:

Really? Because right now, the Corpus are dominating in terms of power. Both with Combas, Nullifiers and Bursas.

Also Sapper Ospreys, god damn Sapper Ospreys.

Those are a symptom of the problem. Each faction has a couple enemies that you can say that about, but the vast majority are fodder.

8 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

*comes in as limbo*

*banishes OP*

*enters rifts*

*casts rift surge*

*takes aim with vulkar wraith*

and thats how u make gamebreaking 2,5million hits :P

and trust me it's fun as hek ^^

The whole point of balance is to make things like what you describe actually useful. The slower your rate of fire is, the more powerful you should be. As the game stands now, the opposite is true. Whomever can put out the most shots is the most useful. This is bad, and is the result of none of the progression being designed beyond the stage of "Oh, this sounds good."

6 minutes ago, ngrazer said:

For those who hate being OP... go play some Dark Souls.
 

Darksouls is an excellent example of different strategies being rewarded in a balanced fashion. I don't think that the sheer difficulty and mechanical mastery is needed in Warframe, but from a balance perspective it is admirable.

[HAYABU5A]

everything is the same, everything drops off eventually and becomes useless

OP gear just takes longer to drop off, gives you more endurance and staying power vs scaled enemies

but unfortunately completely trivializes any low to moderatly high level content

its good practice to switch to lower tier gear for lower level missions, to enjoy that dusty equipment and raise some challenge 

but how to encourage that of free will or enforce it ? maybe a reward incentive multiplier for using weapons not on the exemption list in ratio to mission level ?

its not just about killing enemies, some of the less powerful weapons feel and sound fantastic and are a real joy to use which many players cannot experience because they cant turn off endgame/high level mindset to enjoy them where appropriate 

[carnaga]

59 minutes ago, TheHun7er said:

- Flammable stuff -

I have no idea what is happening on Simulacrum screenshot but I believe that isn't braton prime you blaze on your post. And between the lines you can read my point.

And I see your opinion lacks some vital info. More constructive would be something like this: "I run this frame and this weapon in a squad with this setup and I find it OP".

So basically you say that you fight low lvl enemies with high tier gear & frame and find it boring. I find it boring too. It's like taking unmodded frame and a weapon and fight against lvl 1 enemies. I do sorties and high tier endless missions with saryn + rakta + dual ichors + Brakk combination -- In a PUB game with random frames and random people who have random skills. And sometimes I find it quite challenging. The runs that are a joke are for eg. Sortie MD missions (conditions don't matter) with EV trinny and Blind Mirage.

[egregiousRac]

1 minute ago, CaterHowlett16 said:

Yep I agree completely, but I'm pretty sure prosecutors aren't a big enough threat to be considered outliers. Aren't they just glorified 

Your preaching to the choir. You need to tell this to OP because I don't think he understands it. 

I am talking pure survivability here. Every enemy in the game becomes a threat damage wise once you start doing the Sorties and such.

The OP seems to understand this. He is bringing the level at which enemies become a challenge down to a reasonable level, around the end of the starchart. That is the point at which their damage becomes a challenge to a fully built frame, so it makes sense to target that point for experimentation. At that point the outlier enemies don't deal enough damage to be the absolutely ridiculous threats that they become later. Anyways, most of them aren't as much of outliers when you reduce your damage because they use methods of equalizing damage. A weaker weapon will still do nearly as much damage to them as a max-power weapon does.

[-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS-]

17 minutes ago, Dawn11715 said:

 

Being immensively powerfull IS fun, but so is having a challange.

Solution:

BIGGER enemys.

Why not make toned down versions of some bosses, that will appear regulary on high missions.

Of cause they could only spawn in large tiles, but we already have plenty of them.

You know what would be badass?

Fighting three Jackals with two Raptors giving them air support.

or two terra frames...

or seven phorids...

 

 

 

I fully agree that we need some kind of "horde" mode.  

However, continually scaling enemies higher vs. us getting more powerful will only create a larger delta between new players and the most powerful ones.  I'm not saying we don't have that now already, but the situation would get worse if Warframe keeps scaling enemies up, then releasing more and more powerful mods, weapons, warframes to counter that.  This is important, because for instance there will be quite a few times when advanced players will be in squad with newer players like during a nitain extract alert, etc.

I feel the current spread of power between the new players and the advanced players is ok and a sense of progression is there.

[Kainosh]

Yeah some weapons/frames/enemies certainly do break limits.

I just hope these are design flaws that will be eliminated in the future.

 

[Lijka]

You're forgetting that there are other players as well, you know, the casual ones or ones simply not as good at shooters as others, be it due to lesser reflexes or lack of interest in min-maxing and players using weapons and frames that are fun for them, rather than op weapons.

Making enemies more of a bullet sponges will only result in inferior weapons becoming more inferior and won't solve anything. Thankfully the devs recognised that and are already asking about oppinions on upgrading the gameplay.

I believe the solution you're looking for is more endgame content: raids and such. Lephantis used to be a challenge back in the day, now it can be easily solo's or two-manned. As the game progresses, new challenges should be available, but not in form of tougher enemies, but fights being challenging due to tactics or coordination required, maybe new kind of enemies, requiring more marksmanship rather than a Mirage running into the room with a simulor.

The true problem is, in my oppinion, players always demanding bringing X frame to Y mission type so you end up with certain setups and Void forbid anyone daring to bring a different frame. Who needs Oberon, right? Or Nezha? Oh no, someone plays a non-desacrate Nekros! Oh and you brought a Rhino to spy mission, you idiot! :o

[traybong111]

I agree and disagree. I agree that our damage gap, overpowered CC, and enemy scaling need balancing across the board (Damage 3.0 should do something about multishot scaling our weapon damage through the roof); I disagree that introducing more bullet sponge enemies is a good way to go about it. "Overheating" is also unnecessary when primaries have ammos and our weapon switching is clunky and slow as all hell. However, I think overheating gimmick could be interesting on weapons like Supra if Supra got rid of magazines. 

16 minutes ago, ngrazer said:

For those who hate being OP... go play some Dark Souls.

While I really enjoyed both Dark Souls for what they are, I've grown sick of seeing it pop up in every other Warframe thread over the past years. They have completely different systems of combat and progress. Dark Souls is a much more deliberately paced game; it's always tense because its action is relatively "slow" enough for 1 person to keep up and keep planning (both from memory and on the fly) mostly due to enemies having clear warning signs and fixed spawns. It's almost a lite-strategy game for someone like me who gets really twitchy but doesn't have good reflexes; I die enough times to memorize spawns and I try to plan what I'll do each 'room' and manage my resources to progress further than the last time I did. I admit Warframe bosses could borrow some elements from Dark Souls bosses (though I'm not sure how one could keep the epicness and satisfaction of killing a boss when a lot of Warframe bosses are farmed every breathing second for BPs and rare materials) but that's about it. 

[Kalvorax]

2 hours ago, TheHun7er said:

 

and the simulacrum IS NOT a good defense for saying we are OP.....go do high level content where your surrounded by randomized enemies and not just one type you prepared for with the same setup you used in the Sim....and THEN see how OP you are.

Edited March 8, 2016 by xcynderx

[Hemmo67]

38 minutes ago, egregiousRac said:

The whole point of balance is to make things like what you describe actually useful. The slower your rate of fire is, the more powerful you should be. As the game stands now, the opposite is true. Whomever can put out the most shots is the most useful. This is bad, and is the result of none of the progression being designed beyond the stage of "Oh, this sounds good."

i think u mistunderstood what i was implying (maybe)?

i think it is fun to be overpowered with slow weapons but if u can do same dmg with 25rounds per second gun it feels like meh am i truly having fun here? ._.

nerf automatics and buff slow rate of fire weapons

[egregiousRac]

Just now, Hemmo67 said:

i think u mistunderstood what i was implying (maybe)?

i think it is fun to be overpowered with slow weapons but if u can do same dmg with 25rounds per second gun it feels like meh am i truly having fun here? ._.

nerf automatics and buff slow rate of fire weapons

Not at all. I am saying that what you describe is not OP at all. Using three abilities and a sniper shot should be incredibly powerful. The fact that any mid-range automatic will beat it by a mile is a problem.

[VRHmason]

1 hour ago, dubstep774 said:

I did a dark sector excavation record run with a couple of friends a few weeks ago. We hit 11K cryotic, enemies were lvl 1500+ and the weapons you refer to as OP didn't even get 1/1000 of their HP down. We resorted to our frames and the CC. Try going head to head with a lvl 1500 charger next to a lvl 1700 anchient healer and tell me how exactly OP do you feel.

I don't even know what game OP is playing...or how...
I wanted to write something but this quoted post makes it clear enough...

[Omnimorph]

2 hours ago, TheHun7er said:

Exactly! I do not find killing each enemy in one shot being fun. I've literally "nerfed" many of my weapons, to enjoy game a bit more. For example I really love to use my Braton Prime, because (presumably) it's not OP. (I do not use absurdly hilarious weapons such as Synoid Simulor, Tonkor, Boltor Prime, Soma Prime etc. Hell! I hate it when people in my team use them! Especially Synoid Simulor...) So yeah, of course I was wrong. Modded correctly Braton Prime easily kills each enemy, no matter if it's Sortie or 40+ waves on T4 Survival. (And I know, Prime... slightly better version)  So what I did?  I removed all of buffing mods (excluding Serration) to enjoy this weapon. To feel the fun! Now my current build is: Maxed Serration, Speed Trigger, Rifle Ammo Mutation, Fast Hands + Vital Sense. And it's awesome! Finally most enemies are challenging. Now when I see enemy (Rank 45+) I'm scared as f*ck! What's more interesting, DE is adding a lot of new weapons that are even more powerful.

Something needs to be changed. Some people may like it to be OP (for whatever reason). Some people think they are the best in the world by killing thousands of AI, that can't even shoot them back, because everything we use is so powerful. And I know I'm not alone in such thinking. Now, I know the solution for this might be very difficult, but here's what i think could help. Obviously, nerfing all the weapons and mods would be very very dumb move. Do not touch them! :P However, "buffing" enemies could help in this situation. Maybe add a lot more armor? A lot more health and shields? This might help. You can also add overheating system to weapons, so you'll have to either switch or use your melee more often. 'Cause let's be honest, we only use secondary when we ran out of ammo in our primary. :'D 

 

This is my opinion. 

It's very variable.  When enemies are high level (as in later level T4s and in Sorties, or with the new Sentients) it's not so easy for most players.  In fact it's just about the right level of challenge.

Being OP in relation to earlier content is normal for a game.  Some people find it boring, some people find it fun to be godlike.  Devs have to strike a balance between both preferences.  Not everyone is up for a "challenge" all the time, sometimes people play games to relax and take it easy, and not everyone defines a "challenge" as relaxing and taking it easy.

[kubbi]

I don't think warframe would be as popular if most players didn't think its fun to be this powerfull. 

 

[Urlan]

I think I disagree with your fundamental stance TheHun7er, I believe that endless scaling creates situations that require a focus on high damage and being able kill enemies quickly and efficiently. When we get to fun, I view fun as something that I can do for relaxation or calming, I don't view the opposite of what my character is supposed to be to be fun. Its odd, as I search through the Orokin's spare blueprints and cast-offs, that the enemies I face are far stronger than myself - why rationally would they need me and my own to be the super soldiers they needed to beat back the Sentients when the endless scaling makes them infinitely stronger. For starters, the standard Grineer or Corpus grunt have higher base stats than most warframes and while warframes have a maximum, the enemies do not.

Honestly, I don't begrudge you taking a powerful area effect weapon and modding it to specifically hurt enemies weak against the modded damage you have put on, that sounds like you are playing the game correctly and taking advantage of faction weaknesses. Hek, if you need a fake challenge, you should be wearing a Dragon Key, as that is part of their reason for existing; claiming that everything should be made harder to be able to give you a kick isn't really the best way of balancing a game. Games should be balanced for the middle ground, the average, and even the newer players. While you with your strong arsenal options, or players that have played longer may have the most 'meta' methods of trying to beat the enemies, its only valid as goofing off in most missions when trying to go for real rewards since the game discourages the normal methods of play for higher rewards, like the arcane enhancements from Trials, or  getting new lens, and the cumulative ability and damage resistance of boss type enemies. These situations are to cater to players that have all of the current options and want more 'challenge', they also are non-sustainable and create a large disparity between the players and the game setting; eventually such will break it. Personally, I would prefer the game to stay around as I think it has a good amount of potential.

[ScorpDK]

DE really needs to enable players to equip all 4 of the Corrupted Dragon Keys at the same time, so people can get their challenge without being told to remove mods from their gear.

 

Like, there's not much to be said here. There's no way to fix this without having to change the entire game all-over. You can attempt to normalize all damage across our entire arsenal, so each one is equally as effective - people will still say this or that is more powerful, more effective at killing, having better overall DPS, whatever. Frame can use a power to one-shot several dudes? OP, nerf plz.

But here's the thing. If this was CoD or w/e, a single headshot or explosion would insta-kill you and the enemy, as well. Wanting more challenge is literally impossible without activating cheese mode. Enemy bulletsponges aren't challenging, they're just annoying. The only way to ramp up the difficulty without giving enemies ridiculously hard-hitting weapons, god-like aim and bullet-spongy stats and damage reduction, is to throw more of them at you, from more directions, with each using an AI that works as a team, flanking, ambushing and distracting the player. And this is where the big problem arrives. Better AI and more enemies requires a more powerful machine to handle all that, and that will turn into a big problem for console players and people running Warframe on older model toasters.

 

--- ---

Now, what DE COULD do, is introduce an option on your profile that allows you to switch between Normal and Hardcore mode. Normal would be unaltered, Hardcore would cap all your frame and weapon stats to a maximum of 125%, meaning that even with all power-related mods installed, you only get a 25% bonus to the base (similarly, negative numbers are also limited to a -25%), and turn all auras, focus abilities and arcanes off. Usable Items (Energy Pizza, etc) can only be used 5 times per mission, and have a 60 second cooldown and you only got 1 life per mission, no revives.

The rewards for Hardcore are exactly the same, there's no upside to playing hardcore aside from the challenge you were asking for. However, Hardcore Players and Normal Players cannot play together, you will only be paired with other Hardcore players, so nobody is going around killing everything with the press of a button.

Edited March 8, 2016 by ScorpDK
Spelling

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Nerfers like to take away everyone's options. You have the option to make yourself weaker, but once you nerf something we no longer have the option to be op. Now we all know you were the children that didn't know how to share toys or play with others without throwing a fit if things didn't go how you wanted them. Change the whole game so that I can be scared to go up against level 40 enemies, when I can just do it myself by taking unmodded weak gear. Yay...

[Urlan]

Dragon Keys already exist for making the game harder, it doesn't stand to reason for the game to be changed just to cater to players that want a 'challenge'. If power stats are an in issue, don't wear the corrupted mods; if you consider certain weapons to be easy, don't use them; if you think that enemies are too easy and ignore armor scaling because of Corrosive Projection don't use Corrosive Projection. It doesn't hurt another player's enjoyment of the game, push the developers in a bad direction, and still gives the 'challenge that some might feel they are lacking.