Tonkor: Let's fix easy mode

[Magneu]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

I tried running Tonkor in a few recent sorties.  While the weapon's mechanics can be fun, it ends up just being a bandaid for broken enemy scaling since the reward not only outweighs the risk/downsides but is ludicrously absolute.  Damage is meaningless when it can kill anything in one hit and in a wide AOE at that.  Might as well not have HP and just make everything die in one hit.  I think Warframe's playerbase needs to be weaned off of killing everything instantly at will.  

Yes, as a couple people have tried to argue, "Fix scaling before you change the Tonkor!". Which, if we toned down both enemy armor and damage, would simply make the Tonkor stronger.

Does armor/enemy damage scaling need to be changed? Absolutely. With that, hopefully less cheese tactics both of players and enemies will occur. But reducing the impact of the Tonkor is a good first step for our current system.

I get the feeling that, even with Damage 3.0, if the Tonkor still occupies its current spot...it'll still be as massively used as it is now, just because people like making a game easy.

[[DE]Momaw]

Enemy scaling is a lot less broken than some of you seem to think.   Armor is unfair and silly and needs to stop doing what it's doing, but enemy scaling as a whole is not a problem. The highest legit enemy level in the game is level 100, and you can kill level 100 enemies with other weapons than Tonkor. It's a little bit of a challenge in some cases, but what is even the point of having enemy levels and an endgame if it doesn't get any harder?

The fact that we have weapons which can one-shot EZmode through any enemy, basically regardless of level, is clouding some people's perceptions of what playing the game should actually feels like. If the game isn't forcing you to play better and to know more about how to mod and attack efficiently, then that would be broken.

[chuckdm]

Forty pages about a weapon so "meh" I thought it mastery fodder.  And I still do.  I don't care how obscene a crit build gets with this thing, it's still the most "meh" grenade and/or rocket launcher in the game.  And since the Ogris is a thing, that's saying something.

Note: I'm not denying that this gun is OP in the sense that it is way, way too effective against high-level enemies.  What I mean is the design is meh, the magazine is meh, the idea that the magazine is somehow a counterbalance is equally meh, etc.  The gun is just so meh all around that you could make a mumblecore movie about it.  So OP, yet so completely meh.  Hell, the first time I saw it I thought it was a 6 round rocket launcher because of the red tips on the barrel.  Instead?  Totally meh 2 round nade launcher.

That said, DE, I hope you're paying attention.  You made a crit-capable grenade launcher and this is what happens.  In a game where, for 2 months and a dozen patches, space cats were 1-shotting frames with 1500+ armor, a totally craptastic grenade launcher is being called OP.  This is what happens when you put crit on an AoE weapon.  People lose all track of perspective and go crazy.  And not just the players.  Yeah, I mean you, DE.

I mean I love you guys but really?  ICBM Space Cats and Critical Grenade Launchers?  And you wonder why balancing your game is so hard for you?

Thank goodness you fixed the Hyekkas, at least.  Every Grineer mission after Saturn was suicide there for about 8 weeks.

[CandyDragon]

Tonkor should have the risk of damaging teammates.

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Nariala

[TheBrsrkr]

3 hours ago, Nariala said:

Tonkor should have the risk of damaging teammates.

 

This would be a greifer's wet dream. 

[MagPrime]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

This would be a greifer's wet dream. 

I would get it just for AFK'ers and trolls. :X

[RealPandemonium]

6 hours ago, Momaw said:

Enemy scaling is a lot less broken than some of you seem to think.   Armor is unfair and silly and needs to stop doing what it's doing, but enemy scaling as a whole is not a problem. The highest legit enemy level in the game is level 100, and you can kill level 100 enemies with other weapons than Tonkor. It's a little bit of a challenge in some cases, but what is even the point of having enemy levels and an endgame if it doesn't get any harder?

The fact that we have weapons which can one-shot EZmode through any enemy, basically regardless of level, is clouding some people's perceptions of what playing the game should actually feels like. If the game isn't forcing you to play better and to know more about how to mod and attack efficiently, then that would be broken.

Armor scaling is ridiculously broken, but the damage amounts of level 80+ enemies are also egregious.  There's no reason for enemies to go past the late 60s; I advocate for that to be the limit in regular content, and weapon balance scaled back with that in mind.

[IceColdHawk]

16 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

 There's no reason for enemies to go past the late 60s; I advocate for that to be the limit in regular content, and weapon balance scaled back with that in mind.

Oh god. Please no. Now that would make the game more boring.

[RealPandemonium]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Oh god. Please no. Now that would make the game more boring.

Getting one-shotted is the only thing making the game exciting for you?  What is your typical gameplay experience like?

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, RealPandemonium said:

Getting one-shotted is the only thing making the game exciting for you?  What is your typical gameplay experience like?

Well. I get some kicks out of high level enemies, ye. It makes me pay attention, react fast and play carefully rather than sleepwalking through the mission. One mistake and i could lie on the ground. For example, i'd like to go long in survival or when i farm cores on hieracon or triton. It just feels more interesting for me. For reference, i also liked borderlands 2, if that explains it a bit.

[shyguyk]

If they wont take a damage change, why not a radius change. People have shown in tests that the grenade has around a 7m radius. Why not drop that to something more realistic for a grenade against armored targets. Perhaps we could make it require more precision with a radius around 3m, and those loving the high damage can shut up.

Spoiler

I know they'll say no to this too. it has to hit ALL the things, but I'm just throwing blast radius out there for an option

 

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Well. I get some kicks out of high level enemies, ye. It makes me pay attention, react fast and play carefully rather than sleepwalking through the mission. One mistake and i could lie on the ground. For example, i'd like to go long in survival or when i farm cores on hieracon or triton. It just feels more interesting for me. For reference, i also liked borderlands 2, if that explains it a bit.

IMO it should be this way at level 45 instead of at level 80+.  But also take away the gimmicks (invulnerability, mass CC, astronomical damage options) that let us sleepwalk through missions of any level.

Edited April 26, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Leo17453]

23 hours ago, Nariala said:

Tonkor should have the risk of damaging teammates.

 

No. Bad idea. It should have either its self damage cap applied to ALL other AoE weapons or removed.

[Kettunen]

I think we might as well give up on tonkor ever getting rebalanced. Apparently according to a reddit datamining thread the new tactical alert will feature tonkor mod that boosts both damage and blast radius.Of course it might never get released but the fact that such thing was even considered speaks volumes about how little weight is placed on game balance. They could've literally chosen any other weapon to mod and it would've been better for the gameplay.

Fingers crossed...

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, Kettunen said:

I think we might as well give up on tonkor ever getting rebalanced. Apparently according to a reddit datamining thread the new tactical alert will feature tonkor mod that boosts both damage and blast radius.Of course it might never get released but the fact that such thing was even considered speaks volumes about how little weight is placed on game balance. They could've literally chosen any other weapon to mod and it would've been better for the gameplay.

Fingers crossed...

Sounds kind of like the Primed Streamline they included in there as a joke.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 4/25/2016 at 11:12 PM, ClinkzEastwood said:

Fun is subjective and it shouldn't be brought into a discussion.

Fun is the reason people play computer games.  People don't play computer games for statistics, to make arguments or whatever.  Perhaps you play computer games in order to make statistical arguments, but you're one of the very few. 

Fun is the primary motivation for people to stay in WF and buy stuff.  You don't think that WF game Dev think about fun every day?  If they don't, they'd soon be out of business. 

Please get a clue about how critical fun is in a computer game. 

As far as tonkor goes, if the weapon is not fun for you, don't use it (and don't allow it on your squad, if it just grates on your nerves to see another player enjoying the weapon, which seems a bit narrow minded to me).

so you can have fun and so can I (and the vast numbers of people who enjoy the weapon)

[shyguyk]

1 minute ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Fun is the reason people play computer games.  People don't play computer games for statistics, to make arguments or whatever.  Perhaps you play computer games in order to make statistical arguments, but you're one of the very few. 

Fun is the primary motivation for people to stay in WF and buy stuff.  You don't think that WF game Dev think about fun every day?  If they don't, they'd soon be out of business. 

Please get a clue about how critical fun is in a computer game. 

As far as tonkor goes, if the weapon is not fun for you, don't use it (and don't allow it on your squad, if it just grates on your nerves to see another player enjoying the weapon, which seems a bit narrow minded to me).

so you can have fun and so can I (and the vast numbers of people who enjoy the weapon)

The weapon is fun for us to use.

It's just not fun when others use it while we aren't and having to avoid public matchmaking to have fun with other weapons is asinine.

[Drasiel]

On 4/25/2016 at 9:06 PM, cx-dave said:

Who cares about the Tonkor and your petty demeanor. Time to upgrade your calculator LMAO. We got this coming:

<added spoiler for large image>

from what was said on the stream that is a weapon that may tie into focus as well as potentially replace multiple weapons that are equipped. It was also said that it could be tied to sentients. There isn't really enough information on how the arm gun system will interact with our normal arsenal, nor what it will be effective against, nor what it's intended level unlock is. For all we know at this point it could be like comparing normal guns to archwing guns.

18 hours ago, shyguyk said:

If they wont take a damage change, why not a radius change. People have shown in tests that the grenade has around a 7m radius. Why not drop that to something more realistic for a grenade against armored targets. Perhaps we could make it require more precision with a radius around 3m, and those loving the high damage can shut up.

  Reveal hidden contents

I know they'll say no to this too. it has to hit ALL the things, but I'm just throwing blast radius out there for an option

 

I'll toss that up in the OP as an alternate suggestion.

3 minutes ago, Leo17453 said:

No. Bad idea. It should have either its self damage cap applied to ALL other AoE weapons or removed.

Adding the damage cap of the tonkor as it is now to the other launchers or removing self damage completely would add more problems than it solves. You would end up with a whole slew of weapons that out perform single target geared weaponry with no equatable draw back. A scaled change to self damage from launchers that only deals a percent of total health and shields or a percent of the weapons damage would be better since it'd allow a few mistakes without trivializing the skill required to use the weapons.

[ClinkzEastwood]

2 hours ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

Fun is the reason people play computer games.  People don't play computer games for statistics, to make arguments or whatever.  Perhaps you play computer games in order to make statistical arguments, but you're one of the very few. 

Fun is the primary motivation for people to stay in WF and buy stuff.  You don't think that WF game Dev think about fun every day?  If they don't, they'd soon be out of business. 

Please get a clue about how critical fun is in a computer game. 

As far as tonkor goes, if the weapon is not fun for you, don't use it (and don't allow it on your squad, if it just grates on your nerves to see another player enjoying the weapon, which seems a bit narrow minded to me).

so you can have fun and so can I (and the vast numbers of people who enjoy the weapon)

Fun is also extremely subjective and what can be fun for one can be unfun for other.

I'm not saying that people are not playing video game for fun, I'm saying that using fun as an agurment means you're placing you and your preference above others.

[Leo17453]

4 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Adding the damage cap of the tonkor as it is now to the other launchers or removing self damage completely would add more problems than it solves. You would end up with a whole slew of weapons that out perform single target geared weaponry with no equatable draw back. A scaled change to self damage from launchers that only deals a percent of total health and shields or a percent of the weapons damage would be better since it'd allow a few mistakes without trivializing the skill required to use the weapons.

No no no, I meant to remove the self damage CAP from the tonkor so that it has self damage that is in-line with all other AoE weapons. Right now, it has a 50 self-damage cap whereas other AoE weapons ALWAYS do far more. I don't know how much exactly, but the Tonkor needs its own damage cap removed. There's no reason for it to be there.

[(PSN)KW-ONE]

Let the Tonkor how it is.its just fine,high damage,only two shots and small magazine.nothing to change or nerf here DE.i dont care about all these change and nerf wishes.thats my opinion.

[Leo17453]

4 hours ago, (PS4)KW-ONE said:

Let the Tonkor how it is.its just fine,high damage,only two shots and small magazine.nothing to change or nerf here DE.i dont care about all these change and nerf wishes.thats my opinion.

Read. The. Whole. Thread.

[(PSN)KW-ONE]

10 minutes ago, Leo17453 said:

Read. The. Whole. Thread.

40 pages?no,thanks.only important persons read the whole thread.are you important here?

[Drasiel]

8 hours ago, Leo17453 said:

No no no, I meant to remove the self damage CAP from the tonkor so that it has self damage that is in-line with all other AoE weapons. Right now, it has a 50 self-damage cap whereas other AoE weapons ALWAYS do far more. I don't know how much exactly, but the Tonkor needs its own damage cap removed. There's no reason for it to be there.

oh! Okay sorry for just completely reading that wrong. 

23 minutes ago, (PS4)KW-ONE said:

40 pages?no,thanks.only important persons read the whole thread.are you important here?

Or people actually interested in the discussion, but to be honest you can skim a lot of it p20-p30 is mostly the same arguments going in a circle with larger and larger quotes.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

7 hours ago, Leo17453 said:

Read. The. Whole. Thread.

 

7 hours ago, Drasiel said:

oh! Okay sorry for just completely reading that wrong. 

Or people actually interested in the discussion, but to be honest you can skim a lot of it p20-p30 is mostly the same arguments going in a circle with larger and larger quotes.

Is it the best option for every single mission?

If no then thread is pointless.