There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[felixsylvaris]

This topic had rerailed from anything to just cultural agressive show case.

We can argue if there are specific roles or not, and how it correspondes with different mission types or future mission types, or if Meta is right or just people are lazy or want to feel power fantasy. Theorycrafting is fun.

OP can argue that Trinity is the cancer and need to be cured. Every week we have nerf topics for Valkyr or Ember, we can have some for Trinity too. If frame doesnt have own nerf topic that frame need a buff!

But why mix the two?

The whole ruse of proving that there are some roles, no 3 nor 8 but 6 since Six is double Trinity (this cant be accident) is overcomplicating things. And everyone will just point out that he ignores the roles and the only roles that matter are:

1. Complete Objective
2. Survive

Which could be achieved with team composition without Trinity.

Crusade against Trinity is fine just focus on proving that she is toxic for the game or trivialize content or something. And the answear is not "we need more frames like Trinity".

Edited March 20, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[Fifield]

The abysmal counterarguments keep rolling in, in spite of the fact they're countered in the original post now.

This was a good reply tho:

28 minutes ago, vazerd68 said:

in my list trinity wins the "defense" one so much that the need for "defensive debuff" is irrevellant

I think your (whole) comment shows it doesn't matter how you chop up the roles/usefulness of frames, Trinity is still seriously OP.

@ToaMimrik lobster ahem.

[Manyc]

7 hours ago, Fifield said:

No, there's 8 because I said so.  See what I did there?

There are many ways of cutting a cake.  If this goes over your head, don't bother responding.

It doesn't go over my head, it seems YOU don't know how to dominate a certain role with another frame. Domination is when you can't use anything else as substitution or beat something without it. That's domination.

I don't see this thread filled with bad arguments (maybe some), just arguments you call bad only because they don't follow your own line of thoughts and don't approve of you. You're complicating it to make it side with you. I name this a call for attention, not a discussion. Feel free to prove it wrong, I'll gladly apologize.

Until then I'm done discussing it with you because it's unpleasant to discuss with a wall. Have fun.

[Fifield]

Let me put it another way that maybe you'll understand.

32 minutes ago, Manyc said:

It doesn't go over my head, it seems YOU don't know how to dominate a certain role with another frame. Domination is when you can't use anything else as substitution or beat something without it. That's domination.

How does this contradict any of :

1. Trinity being seriously OP.
2. Frames which dominate roles stop other frames having a valid role thus depriving players of enjoyable variety.
3. Considering roles and how to split them up helps with designing frames.

These are the 3 arguments I made.

I'll give you a clue.  Your argument doesn't contradict any of them.  This is because it's irrelevant to anything I said.

Probably your reply will be just as irrelevant.  If I don't respond to you, that's why.

[spacedkadet]

37 minutes ago, Fifield said:

 

1. Trinity being seriously OP.
2. Frames which dominate roles stop other frames having a valid role thus depriving players of enjoyable variety.
3. Considering roles and how to split them up helps with designing frames.
 

1: Your Opinion.  Adding the word "seriously" does not help your case.

2: Conjecture, where is your proof that other players are deprived of enjoyment, I for one am not.

3. again this is your opinion, personally I would leave that to the devs.

Edited March 20, 2016 by spacedkadet

[rawr1254]

6 minutes ago, spacedkadet said:

 

3. again this is your opinion, personally I would leave that to the devs.

Yea really :| Look how fast Scott shot down all those loot powers are "toxic" threads lol.

[Pro3Display]

3 minutes ago, rawr1254 said:

Yea really :| Look how fast Scott shot down all those loot powers are "toxic" threads lol.

really? where?

[rawr1254]

Just now, Pro3Display said:

really? where?

Devstream 71. Scott said ain't nothin wrong with loot powers.

[spacedkadet]

 

On 3/20/2016 at 9:09 AM, rawr1254 said:

Yea really :| Look how fast Scott shot down all those loot powers are "toxic" threads lol.

We are the players, we can give opinions and guidance but we are not the dev's. It is ultimately their decision.

Edited March 21, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden post

[Currilicious]

For me Trinity is fine as it is.

I like that this game is not so stringent that you need pinpoint precision in execution like other games out there.

I like being able to play without stress, and most of the time without too much thought also.

I like the comparatively lower levels of elitism.

So to me there is no need to change Trinity.

 

[vazerd68]

huh the thread is gonna get locked at this rate

i see 2 sides :

• some players beleive that there are playstyle avalables that are OverPowered, meaning that if you want to use "the most effective way", you will use them without any doubt. The issue being that the playstyles that serves the same purposes but less effectivelly are less played. Thoses lesser playstyles ARE VIABLE. BUT for min-maxer, it reduces the diversity of playstyles, which is one of the strongest points the has going for it.
• other players think that the presence of OP playstyles is not an issue because you can just "not use it", hence it's a non-issue.

it really depends on what each individual believe is "better game design".

What i consider to be better game design is "here are playstyles. they are all as good and effective as each other. pick one you like and have fun. then go try an other one". aka "balance". games such as Path of Exile archieve such design and I love it. 

In devstream 71, Scott was in the "2nd ideology"

5 minutes ago, Currilicious said:

For me Trinity is fine as it is.

I like that this game is not so stringent that you need pinpoint precision in execution like other games out there.

I like being able to play without stress, and most of the time without too much thought also.

I like the comparatively lower levels of elitism.

So to me there is no need to change Trinity.

 

as an example, this player thinks that trinity's level of effectiveness is the way of playing the game is has the most fun with. which is kind of a 3rd opinion. I wonder if he would want to have other frames buffed to this level.

[rawr1254]

6 minutes ago, vazerd68 said:

as an example, this player thinks that trinity's level of effectiveness is the way of playing the game is has the most fun with. which is kind of a 3rd opinion. I wonder if he would want to have other frames buffed to this level.

Thing about that is this has happened with numerous frames abilities. Mesas peacemakers, Trins EV, Excals EB, Mags SP, etc, etc. All these "nerf" threads pretty much got shot down again when Scott said he wants to bring Mag/Volt up to Excaliburs level of strength. Clearly we don't know what DE has planned. Obviously something is coming in the near future that we will NEED to be as powerful as we're becoming. DE isn't thinking of the now as much as they're likely thinking U20 lol. But at the same time they have to address issues such as these to quell the rage and keep players playing. And that's how we get some frame thrown in the trash (G Mag/Hydroid/Mesa)

Edited March 20, 2016 by rawr1254

[Fifield]

7 minutes ago, vazerd68 said:

• other players think that the presence of OP playstyles is not an issue because you can just "not use it", hence it's a non-issue..

Unless you have a large clan dedicated to not using OP stuff (and believe me I've thought about it), or you're willing to play solo, then you can't not use it.  Teams you join will rightly have a go at you and demand you leave for not pulling your weight.

9 minutes ago, vazerd68 said:

I wonder if he would want to have other frames buffed to this level.

Important question.  I wonder if any of the Trinity-lovers will dare answer it.

[i_Lex]

More trinity nerfs will result in a raging community which none of us want. 

Although all frames can benefit a mission. There are 3 frames which need to be changed 1 of which is in development now.

 

1. Mesa (peace maker isn't valuable and doesn't scale.)

2. Hydroid. (don't need to explain.)

3.mag (which is already getting a rework)

[i_Lex]

Our frames and knowledge shouldn't be limited to a small list. Remember this is a game and it will always be a game.... Fun is the most important thing here.

[Robm]

I don't even remember the last time I used Trinity for EV. I mainly use her for Bless. Though this topic is degrading.

Trinity is not OP, just really good at her job. Depending on how you mod her. I have a bless and a EV build on her. 

[Currilicious]

10 minutes ago, vazerd68 said:

as an example, this player thinks that trinity's level of effectiveness is the way of playing the game is has the most fun with. which is kind of a 3rd opinion. I wonder if he would want to have other frames buffed to this level.

Buffing underpowered ones would be nice. Then there are more options to having fun.

I don't see any point in nerfing anything. You're basically taking fun away from some people. It's a PVE game primarily so what's the big deal? You're not getting harassed by some cheesy stealth-gank class camping your quest spot.

About the lack of diversity, look at Oberon. There will still be people that enjoy that playstyle even though the general consensus is the frame being horribly underpowered. Or Mag, it's also one of my favorite frames and I welcome the changes to make her better.

If diversity is the issue, buff the others and leave the current ones untouched as it is unfair to people who has invested time and effort into building the frames to their liking.

 

[vazerd68]

Just now, Currilicious said:

Buffing underpowered ones would be nice. Then there are more options to having fun.

I don't see any point in nerfing anything. You're basically taking fun away from some people. It's a PVE game primarily so what's the big deal? You're not getting harassed by some cheesy stealth-gank class camping your quest spot.

About the lack of diversity, look at Oberon. There will still be people that enjoy that playstyle even though the general consensus is the frame being horribly underpowered. Or Mag, it's also one of my favorite frames and I welcome the changes to make her better.

If diversity is the issue, buff the others and leave the current ones untouched as it is unfair to people who has invested time and effort into building the frames to their liking.

 

The main point of the "nerf threads" is that the game would be way too easy this way. As long as it is properly balanced, I'm fine with it. We already have frames at this level so it wouldn't really make the game easier than it is now. I'd prefer it harder tho.

[Husla]

Why do you want to stop players from using a frame that "synergies" so well with other frames? Isn't what DE trying to put forward is team effort and abilties that work together?

 

 

[Plushy]

Didn't there used to be 8 roles?

[jinxeverything]

7 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Although i agree that Trinity is strong and EV definitely need a nerf in some way i can't really say that Trinity is the only frame that does three things and dominating them either.

 

Nova could easily fit with 2,3,7 and 10.

Saryn could fit into 1, 2, and 7 

and we could keep listing a lot of frames that have three or more of the things mentioned above now i will never argue why Trinity's fourth on the list is ok, she is easily holding that post even on a duration build it is really easy to give allies energy. But the problem is not directly Trinity when it comes to the number 5 on the list.

 

The problem all other healers have are that they are very annoying to play both from e mechanical stand point and a response view.

Inaros require mobs to be alive with a debuff on them and for allies to be close.

Nezha's healing from Blazing Chakram have the same issue, it requires a target and then you have to throw the ability hit foes then finish them of within a short period of time and the healing return is so small.

Oberon is slightly harder to compare but his ultimate only spawn health orbs if foes die to his ulti and his aura costs a lot due to the fact it offers a health per second and a extended bleed out timer.

Equinox requires her to attack foes, although easier than most of the other compared to Trinity that only need to press one button it is still a lot of buildup in a game where seconds matter once you actually need a healer.

 

Another problem these frames have compared to Trinity is that Trinity can do Healing, energy gain and more healing and offer survivability for herself and her allies. While everyone else on this list have a lot of more tools that they are maybe not dominating in, but they can still offer some support in that field. Equinox may not be able to offer the same panic healing or the same resistance to allies or energy. But she can crowd control and deal massive amount of damage.

Likewise Oberon may not be the most favored frame, and his healing is worse than Trinity, he can Crowd control a large amount of foes in exchange for being weaker in the healing area.

 

I would have to say that although Trinity's Energy Vampire may be way ahead of all other energy gaining tools in the game i find it obvious why she has stronger heal than all other healers, if you would make them on par with Trinity either by lowering her or by increasing there what would she be able to do instead?

Trinity is not the primary reason other healers are not sought after in a healing perspective. The damage our opponents are capable of doing and the low response time we get is the main culprit here.

What about Limbo with Haven augment like this build?

Or Chroma with fire element?

These two can heal as well but not like Trinity.

Also Trinity is a support medic (stays with the team to heal and support) while Oberon being a combat medic ( can take point to help the team with killing)

Oberon to max heal you, you need positive duration (more duration = less healing time, this like Saryn press 4 to nuke, to an extent) and more strength as well!

If you have Sahara breed you can get around 50-75 health orbs whenever the pet can dig :P

Edited March 20, 2016 by Prinny13

[Manyc]

We're also forgetting the most recent addition, Inaros Scarab can heal awesomely.

[rawr1254]

5 minutes ago, Prinny13 said:

What about Limbo with Haven augment like this

Or Chroma with fire element?

These two can heal as well but not like Trinity.

Also for Oberon to max heal you, you need positive duration (more duration = less healing time, this like Saryn press 4 to nuke, to an extent) and more strength as well!

Also if you have Sahara breed you can get around 50-75 health orbs whenever the pet can dig :P

His rebuttal will be its infinite range and all. The nerfers never think too hard on the reason to and that's the fact that EVERY healer is not actually a good healer.Trinity only gives dmg reduction but that can only achieve 99% and with Quick Thinking being a requirement. If blessing isn't up teammates go down if they dont have QT themselves. Same is said for Oberon/Equinox/etc. All these healers have NO way of keeping you healed late game without you going down in one hit. I could turn on a max duration/str renewal and my teammate would still go down if they dont have QT. So is Trin an OP healer? Yes and no. Yes in the fact it's instant and infinite in range, no in the fact that you need QT for its heal to be any good.

Edited March 20, 2016 by rawr1254

[-N7-Leonhart]

When you have Trinity equipped, everyone will scream for a EV or heal, like they scream "back to the kitchen, woman!".

I put 4 forma on Trinity Prime, never to touch it again in months. I guess I was hopeful, but Trinity is not fit for a tank/damage hardened frame like Rhino or Chroma can pull off. Especially my build for Chroma with Arcane Grace + Avenger, can go 1h 20 in solo survivals like it's a walk in the park.

[Pro3Display]

13 minutes ago, Plushy said:

Didn't there used to be 8 roles?

yep, there used to be 8