About Raids...

[Vali]

Recently I took short break from Warframe to play some other games my friends dragged me into. One of them being Dragon Nest. 

Though I will happily admit its published by some of the most cash grabby pay-to-win companies out there, the game itself has very fun end game, especially its raids. After that, I took some time to investigate other games like Destiny for their raid designs, and all of them seem somewhat intuitive and enjoyable.

I'm no expert in game design, but if you had a say at it, what issues we face with the raids available in Warframe in a design perspective?

Is it the lack of mechanics or diversity from regular play?

Or is it the absurd difficulty and one shots which force a cheese play tactic?

Edited April 11, 2016 by Agentawesome

[PrVonTuckIII]

Nothing. I don't see anything wrong with WF Raids other than the fact that you generally need a specific team to beat it easily. And they very far from difficult. Much less so than Sorties. If anything, they could be longer, but that's it.

[Kaotyke]

Not sure. How is the Bugfest that is/was Jordas Verdict going those days?

[MagPrime]

I'd like a bit more dialogue and immersion for the Raids, personally, and a bit better scaling.  Right now it's CC everything or die.  No point or benefit to killing anything, just take a RB Excal and a Disco Mirage and you win because nothing can move.

Some more dialogue than what we have now, especially since that's where the new raid players get the hints of what our objective is.  Being required to go out of game to figure out what to do is, imo, ridiculous.  If there were loot rooms or ways to increase rewards, then yeah, a raid guide would be nice but the basics should be covered via in raid dialogue, or even get a pre-raid briefing. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Noamuth

[TheGreatBB]

I was excited to try the raids in WF.

I tried the raids in WF.

I traded away the raid keys I built in WF.

[Phatose]

For one, I'd make sure raids were reasonably accessible.  If I were to want to start raiding today, as a new player or even as a vet who's never run a raid before, the first issue I run into is matchmaking.  A large group is absolutely required to even start a raid, there is no automatic matchmaking available, and the recruiting channel is not friendly to new raiders.  I understand why people don't want to take newbies on raids, but it puts new raiders in a position where they can never actually gain experience in the raid since they can't run it without a group, and can't join a group without experience, and can't gain experience since they can't run the raid.

..a bit like the job market, actually.

From what I've seen on youtube and the like, the problems continue if you get past that problem - the raid is largely about CC and puzzle solving, while the entire rest of the game is about just plain killing meaning it's a poor lead in to raiding, since the skills needed for a raid versus normal play drastically differ.  But that's just an impression, since I've never gotten by the group issue.

[AsianLyf]

54 minutes ago, Phatose said:

For one, I'd make sure raids were reasonably accessible.  If I were to want to start raiding today, as a new player or even as a vet who's never run a raid before, the first issue I run into is matchmaking.  A large group is absolutely required to even start a raid, there is no automatic matchmaking available, and the recruiting channel is not friendly to new raiders.  I understand why people don't want to take newbies on raids, but it puts new raiders in a position where they can never actually gain experience in the raid since they can't run it without a group, and can't join a group without experience, and can't gain experience since they can't run the raid.

..a bit like the job market, actually.

From what I've seen on youtube and the like, the problems continue if you get past that problem - the raid is largely about CC and puzzle solving, while the entire rest of the game is about just plain killing meaning it's a poor lead in to raiding, since the skills needed for a raid versus normal play drastically differ.  But that's just an impression, since I've never gotten by the group issue.

As long as the vets are willing to carry a newbie who listens to what they have to do, the raid regardless of nightmare or normal difficulty, it should be fine for all of them.

I can vouch for what I'm saying as I did my first normal LoR and Nightmare LoR yesterday, both of which I asked for guidance and if I was allowed to be "New" to the raid, both times the host and the group agreed that it was okay as I was willing to listen. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Ankoku_no_Hime

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, Ankoku_no_Hime said:

As long as the vets are willing to carry a newbie who listens to what they have to do, the raid regardless of nightmare or normal difficulty, it should be fine for all of them.

I can vouch for this.

A couple weeks ago, I tried to take a bunch of newbies through the LoR Raid but due to the on going DDoS at the time and some horrible connection issues, half the team dropped during loading.

I was able to verbally walk 4 people through the first stage of the raid - this was two people that had never done it before, one person who had run it once and another who didn't say.  But; with direction from someone familiar with the raid 4 newbs were able to complete the first phase easily.  (they couldn't move on to the other two due to connection issues again - three dropped and one loaded in alone into the Hijack portion. XD) 

The only problem is finding the experienced Raid players that are willing to give direction in the first place.  I've seen so many that just don't want to deal with directing anyone; they want to load in, get it done as fast as they can with minimal chatter (got yelled at for using Voice chat once.) and move on.

[(PSN)CL_Poloboyzz93]

2 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

Not sure. How is the Bugfest that is/was Jordas Verdict going those days?

It's patched.

[(XBOX)SKWRLY]

I haven't had a go at the Jordas raid but I can say that the only thing that really bothers me about the nm lor raid is the hijack fail section. I personally love the coordination of the entire rest of the raid though and why only puzzles really obtain my appreciation in WF. Everything else just seems like I'm spinning the wheel hoping I get a loot drop. 

Of course everything becomes trivial to an extent after you've been through it a few times, but the cc or die design of this game makes me sleepy after a while.

i wouldn't mind seeing a stalker themed raid though. Not sure how it would work but it sounds cool in my head. I just love how if I'm solo and unprepared against the stalker I have to lead him and anticipate his attacks. It feels like the challenge that the game is missing after you figure it out.

Edited April 11, 2016 by (XB1)SKWRLY

[TARINunit9]

There are two major issues facing raids at the moment:

1) Bugs. Jordas Verdict is in this limbo state where it's literally unwinnable about half the time. Law of Retribution is usually better, but there are times when doors can get stuck

2) Peer-to-peer hosting system. 4 players, pretty stable. 8 players... it works, but I can hear the engine heaving sometimes

[Kaotyke]

Just now, (PS4)Poloboyzz93 said:

It's patched.

I'm still hesitating in asking for a team.

In part because of trauma.

In other because I want to go inside the Golem and I've never went beyond the 2nd spore.

[Educated_Beast]

Warframe raids are more like a group quest.  Other than the same units, it's a different game.  All the puzzles are irritating and after you completed it xx times, it is boring.  

 

Sorties are more like how raids should be designed.  At least in JV raid, killing units is required, but the puzzles there require a video to learn in reasonable time.  

 

I'd be OK with a total rework of raids to play more like base game and less of just cc everything, run to next room.  The only way you fail is if someone jumps off a pad to early in LOR.  

 

They can just make existing into a one time playable quest.  

 

I stopped raids completely unless a friend needs some help and there is no one else.  

[Phatose]

1 hour ago, Noamuth said:

The only problem is finding the experienced Raid players that are willing to give direction in the first place.  I've seen so many that just don't want to deal with directing anyone; they want to load in, get it done as fast as they can with minimal chatter (got yelled at for using Voice chat once.) and move on.

Well, yeah.  That's the problem I was talking about.  With no matchmaking, and no shortage of players who simply don't want the weight of a newbie on the team, just joining the scene is damn hard.

[TheMightyBaloon]

Well while raids are not the best I think in general they are just not well though and made. There isn't much depth and the fact that you get the same exact scenario every single time is why people tend to run away. Aracnes are fun and all but they don't contribute much to your gameplay. People did fine before primed mods and arcanes and that is that. To me by far the best experience in warframe was the Shadow Debt final mission where you had to fight Misery in a continuous struggle to achieve higher waves an get more mods. I think something of that difficulty  with the ability to be dynamic is what raids should be. That and don't make raids key based. Make them node based and rotate them like sorties and such.

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, Phatose said:

Well, yeah.  That's the problem I was talking about.  With no matchmaking, and no shortage of players who simply don't want the weight of a newbie on the team, just joining the scene is damn hard.

I'm working on fixing that.  Once I get internet access at the house, I'm setting up training raids.  Just need the dang intertubes first!