Opinions on the Lore Change

[BornWithTeeth]

@Stratego89

 

Oi Stratego, how would you feel about different voice packs being available? Same voices, just different dialogue packs, different themes, moods, and content? At least one voice pack sounding like a tranquil, murderous space samurai, speaking in delicate haiku with metaphors about falling blossoms, and reaping thousands of identical grains of rice?

 

Another voice pack going full sci fi spess pilot, taking an interest in the technology and developmental history of the Origin system?

 

Sort of thing.

[Stratego89]

10 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

@Stratego89

 

Oi Stratego, how would you feel about different voice packs being available? Same voices, just different dialogue packs, different themes, moods, and content? At least one voice pack sounding like a tranquil, murderous space samurai, speaking in delicate haiku with metaphors about falling blossoms, and reaping thousands of identical grains of rice?

 

Another voice pack going full sci fi spess pilot, taking an interest in the technology and developmental history of the Origin system?

 

Sort of thing.

That would be nice eventually- but again I'm just very focused on them not talking so much and their voice lines meaning something rather than just being thrown in so DE can continue to remind us "HEY GUYS YOU'RE NOT ACTUALLY WARFRAMES". Which is quite obviously the entire reason the tenno voice lines even exist atm. Steve seems to have this tendency to smother us in it- kinda like going "OMG ITS SO COOL RIGHT" *looks at the capes*.

As long as all the voice packs fit into what I'm saying about the lines being used sparingly and having an actual PURPOSE rather than just existing, I think it would make a good addition to the game.

[Genitive]

21 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

As long as all the voice packs fit into what I'm saying about the lines being used sparingly and having an actual PURPOSE rather than just existing, I think it would make a good addition to the game.

I think it was mentioned during one of the devstreams that they are planning to rework the operator lines. Right now I like very few of them, the rest is just too cheesy to fit the game. Things like 'Archwing deployed', or 'That hurt' are fine, but some others... urgh. 

 

Update:

Unless it is some kind of lore hint cleverly prepared by the devs, the operators shouldn't talk in a way suggesting they are talking to somebody else, like 'Let's go'. It makes little sense, especially when you play solo.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Genitive

[SilentMobius]

12 hours ago, Wyzilla said:

A ton of stuff has been changed. Without Tenno actually being the Warframes themselves, all agency is removed. Those Warframes Alad V spliced together and disected? Boo hoo. It turns out they were just remotely operated avatars. There is no longer loss unless an enemy by shear luck stumbles across an operator.

The Tenno were never the Warframe's themselves, we-the-player knew that simply due to the way the game was set up from the very beginning. One mastery track, one set of equipment, one quest track, in-game references to building new warframes for the current Tenno all require a single, fixed, character POV.

It was always absolutely obvious that we-the-player were represented by a single Tenno who used multiple Warframes, people who missed that really weren't paying attention. As I had been pointing out for years before the Second Dream hit.

The Tenno themselves were dreaming, and I assume (though it's not stated) that "dream logic" smoothed over the confusion over switching frames at that point.

That said, the nature of the relationship between the Tenno and their multiple Warframes was vague, and some of that was filled in by the second dream.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SilentMobius

[WARLOCKE]

So how would you have not "ruined" the lore OP? Would you rather warframes be piloted by anime guys/girls? Did you want each warframe to be unique and horribly lore breaking when two excals were in the same mission? It played out the only way it logically could im afraid. But im sorry you didnt like it. I loved it like many others.

[Vazkra]

I'm personally happy with how it turned out, to be honest though me and the wife were sat down watching the scene of the operator falling out of the chair and we both were like what the matrix? Still, I feel emotionally attached to the child in the basement of my ship I wish it was more adult but I get the reason behind it, given what happened to them and all. Personally I feel better knowing something human is behind the warframe itself of course I know many were disappointed with the outcome, now just give me more weird face augments! They were supposed to be horrendously disfigured! I can't believe I'm complaining that they're too pretty...

Good job on the modeling of them though DE well done.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Vazkra

[BornWithTeeth]

About the dialogue options, well. It may be a little cliché but if the player character is a tragic child soldier/brainwashed killing machine then they should probably talk like it.

 

 

To expand on a thing I said back in December:

There is a Tenno whose callsign is BornWithTeeth. If I had to guess, I'd say that he was about fourteen or fifteen aboard the Zariman 10-0. Maybe sixteen by the time the Dream began.

Sixteen years as child, boy, and young man. This, followed by what seems to have been decades of experience as a cold blooded war machine, an intelligence remade, trained to think and feel and act as a ninja, to use blade and gun as an extension of himself.

That mind is not that of a child. Perhaps he mourns for his lost childhood, but it is not appropriate to attempt to reclaim it or re-enact it. BornWithTeeth has now spent much more of his life as a ninja warmachine than he ever spent as a human boy.

 

[Jerakl]

Being a fairly new player at the time, I enjoyed it.

Plot twists are nice.

 

Although as some other members pointed out, the codex pointed to it. I myself have read some of the entries that hint.

Rhino Prime's entry, as well as ember's when put together made it pretty clear that the tenno were children.

 

Also @Wyzilla might wanna tag your post with spoilers :^)

Edited May 17, 2016 by Jerakl

[Lab990]

Along with many of the others in this post, i love what they have done with the lore. I, much like you have come back after a long, almost 2 year break from the game and when i finished the Second Dream, I was flabbergasted.  I also was, at first somewhat unsure about how i felt about the tenno being children.  However after thinking about it, I have come to think of Tenno of having the physical bodies of children, but in fact having the mind of a being that has lived for a long amount of time.  The fact that their true forms are that of weak children who cannot even walk is a fitting form when compared to how the rest of the Origin system views them.

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

To be honest though, Evangelion isn't really for kids...

[Slaviar]

Warframes as surrogate armors is nice concept but depiction of Tenno ruins it. Weird kids with annoying lines (you'd think they'd clone something a little less ugly) belong to some not so good cartoon, they're out of place in Warframe

[Kaotyke]

7 hours ago, Genitive said:

Unless it is some kind of lore hint cleverly prepared by the devs, the operators shouldn't talk in a way suggesting they are talking to somebody else, like 'Let's go'. It makes little sense, especially when you play solo.

Must be a lore hint, after all "On your feet, Warframe!".

And they did say the relationship between the Tenno and the Warframe is symbiotic, not puppet/puppeteer.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

Must be a lore hint, after all "On your feet, Warframe!".

And they did say the relationshy between the Tenno and the Warframe is symbiotic, not puppet/puppeteer.

Which is problematic as balls, considering that we can build and discard Warframes at will. Might want to think that one through DE, to be honest.

[Kaotyke]

28 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Which is problematic as balls, considering that we can build and discard Warframes at will. Might want to think that one through DE, to be honest.

Lets not confuse gameplay and lore okay?

[Genitive]

28 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Which is problematic as balls, considering that we can build and discard Warframes at will.

That's why I believe it is more of a puppet/puppeteer relationship. Warframes are alive, but don't necessarily have their own minds.

[BornWithTeeth]

14 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

Lets not confuse gameplay and lore okay?

Thing is.....the boundary between gameplay and lore was only weakened by Second Dream, not reinforced. Before Second Dream, people could argue that being able to use multiple Warframes was just a gameplay conceit. Second Dream made it clear. No, there is one Tenno for your player account.

 

The final cutscene of Second Dream has the Lotus walking past an impaled Warframe without giving it a second glance. She doesn't care. The Tenno is what she looks to, what she takes care of.

 

Basically.....if DE want to now proceed with the idea that the relationship between Tenno and Warframe is symbiotic, and that we're talking about two minds in anything approaching equilibrium, then they have a lot of explaining to do. Second Dream was intended to resolve the gameplay/lore dichotomies, not create even bigger ones.

[GhostSwordsman]

6 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Thing is.....the boundary between gameplay and lore was only weakened by Second Dream, not reinforced. Before Second Dream, people could argue that being able to use multiple Warframes was just a gameplay conceit. Second Dream made it clear. No, there is one Tenno for your player account.

 

The final cutscene of Second Dream has the Lotus walking past an impaled Warframe without giving it a second glance. She doesn't care. The Tenno is what she looks to, what she takes care of.

 

Basically.....if DE want to now proceed with the idea that the relationship between Tenno and Warframe is symbiotic, and that we're talking about two minds in anything approaching equilibrium, then they have a lot of explaining to do. Second Dream was intended to resolve the gameplay/lore dichotomies, not create even bigger ones.

You have to remember that we still don't know what caused the warframe to break war. Some speculate that the lotus did it, some think it might have been our operator, and others think it was the warframe itself.

Codex entires do allude to and support the latter. Rhino prime in particular, shows that the warframes were rabid and beast like before the Orokin discovered transference. Chroma's quest involves a warframe that is moving about on its own, with no clear indication that it possesses sentience or if it's being controlled like our warframes.

But both of those do give enough evidence for us to speculate that the warfames themselves have the potential to be sentient. From Rhino Primes codex entry alone we know that the warframes are aware of their surroundings like an animal. If DE is going for a symbiotic relationship between operator and warframe, then it makes sense why the warframe broke war without the influence of the operator. It sensed that the operator was in danger, and acted accordingly. After all the time the warframes have spent being linked to our operator, it makes sense that they would feel attached to them, like a pet is attached to its owner.

Edited May 17, 2016 by GhostSwordsman

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, GhostSwordsman said:

You have to remember that we still don't know what caused the warframe to break war. Some speculate that the lotus did it, some think it might have been our operator, and others think it was the warframe itself.

Codex entires do allude to and support the latter. Rhino prime in particular, shows that the warframes were rabid and beast like before the Orokin discovered transference. Chroma's quest involves a warframe that is moving about on its own, with no clear indication that it possesses sentience or if it's being controlled like our warframes.

Yeah, but what I'm arguing here is not whether "Warframes are sentient" is a possibility, I'm arguing about whether it's a good idea for DE to write the setting and story so that they are sentient. Because if they are, then using a Warframe is worse than slavery, and releasing a Warframe is abhorrent too, because it looks like they can't function without a Tenno.

 

 

Writing the game in such a way that:

1. Warframes are sentient.

2. Warframes are remote controlled.

3. Warframes cannot fully function without a Tenno to do the controlling.

4. Each Tenno has loads of 'frames, and the ones which aren't in use are put in cold storage.......

 

 

Can you see how this could be a problem?

[Phatose]

Actually seems pretty fitting.  Warframe is pretty dark and short on moralizing as it is, and the Tenno tend to solve their problems by mass murder, so the idea they might be okay with effective slavery under the right circumstances seems fitting.  Especially if the enslaved are based on the infestation, which enslaves by it's very nature, and there is some question whether or not there is actually a mind in there, or just portions of a hive mind or what.

 

[GhostSwordsman]

7 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Yeah, but what I'm arguing here is not whether "Warframes are sentient" is a possibility, I'm arguing about whether it's a good idea for DE to write the setting and story so that they are sentient. Because if they are, then using a Warframe is worse than slavery, and releasing a Warframe is abhorrent too, because it looks like they can't function without a Tenno.

 

 

Writing the game in such a way that:

1. Warframes are sentient.

2. Warframes are remote controlled.

3. Warframes cannot fully function without a Tenno to do the controlling.

4. Each Tenno has loads of 'frames, and the ones which aren't in use are put in cold storage.......

 

 

Can you see how this could be a problem?

I don't quite see the problem you're seeing. That's a very M rated theme for a game, and is very much the sci-fi space horror the OP thought DE had flushed down the toilet.

The Orokin themselves were not ethical in the least bit. All evidence points to this. They were more concerned about self preservation than ethical treatment of a living being created by their hands or not.

Edited May 17, 2016 by GhostSwordsman

[Gelkor]

9 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Yeah, but what I'm arguing here is not whether "Warframes are sentient" is a possibility, I'm arguing about whether it's a good idea for DE to write the setting and story so that they are sentient. Because if they are, then using a Warframe is worse than slavery, and releasing a Warframe is abhorrent too, because it looks like they can't function without a Tenno.

 

 

Writing the game in such a way that:

1. Warframes are sentient.

2. Warframes are remote controlled.

3. Warframes cannot fully function without a Tenno to do the controlling.

4. Each Tenno has loads of 'frames, and the ones which aren't in use are put in cold storage.......

 

 

Can you see how this could be a problem?

I'd say it's as problematic as Pokemon.

Only difference is we aren't under any illusions that Tenno are good people.  We are regicides working for a genocidal turncoat doling out rampant destruction of three major powers under the guise of "balance."  Add mind controlling infested clones (Does this unit have a soul?) to the mix and it's just another cherry on the top of a horrible sundae. 

[BornWithTeeth]

See, if that's the case. If that really is what's going on........then I will never again build another Warframe. I'll pick one, and use it exclusively, and let all of the others sleep forever.

[Neo3602]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

See, if that's the case. If that really is what's going on........then I will never again build another Warframe. I'll pick one, and use it exclusively, and let all of the others sleep forever.

 

I'd wait until DE reveals exactly what warframes are before going that far.

[Kaotyke]

19 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Yeah, but what I'm arguing here is not whether "Warframes are sentient" is a possibility, I'm arguing about whether it's a good idea for DE to write the setting and story so that they are sentient. Because if they are, then using a Warframe is worse than slavery, and releasing a Warframe is abhorrent too, because it looks like they can't function without a Tenno.

 

 

Writing the game in such a way that:

1. Warframes are sentient.

2. Warframes are remote controlled.

3. Warframes cannot fully function without a Tenno to do the controlling.

4. Each Tenno has loads of 'frames, and the ones which aren't in use are put in cold storage.......

 

 

Can you see how this could be a problem?

It makes things intriguing doesnt it? It would make the player think they have a feeling, thinking being that they just leave in the freezer and takes out only when its needed, it will make the Operator seem more... jaded? Ruthless?

*looks at some Kubrows I havent used in months*

.... oh.

9 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

I'd say it's as problematic as Pokemon.

... Mind. Blown.

8 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

See, if that's the case. If that really is what's going on........then I will never again build another Warframe. I'll pick one, and use it exclusively, and let all of the others sleep forever.

Go play some XCOM 2, if thats how you approach things (Making each character unique and if they die there's no revive option, you lost that soldier you spend time leveling, giving gear, making it its own "person" and attaching yourself to it), I think you will like it. I think I would too... if my PC could handle it. >.<

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[SeaUrchins]

What, you expected Tenno to be some ancient space samurai warriors? Surprise! They are kavai space lollies with a kavai space mommy!

:D