Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[Rhaenxys]

The changes to hysteria are reasonable, maybe the penalization aura has been increased too much (it is currently 5m IIRC) i still think paralysis range should be adjusted to 15-20 meters, a suggestion for blessing:

Remove the self damage "trick" 99% DR on demand isnt healthy for the game but let the ability use shield values for the DR formula and well of life should give increased shield regeneration if your allies are near the target (same range as the heal).

 

[ThatOddDeer]

So far, as what I can see about opinions on the changes, I'll try to summarize what has been said.

 

prism: almost overwhelmingly agreed with, will probably need animation speed/potentially the ability to move while casting to make up for the buggyness of LoS

EB: mostly fine, unless the slide-blind is massively buffed EB lost a useful mobility tool. Additionally,and because the exalted blade stance is so unrewarding, people have made the point that Exalted type melees punish players for modding their weapons for it instead of using Body count + blood rush on pretty much any decent melee(which I thought was against the intent of how modding for exalted melees should work) and do less damage overall compared to a well modded melee while also costing energy. If these powers are to continue costing energy they should be far more rewarding than a melee that doesn't cost energy to maintain.

Hysteria: Doesn't really solve the problem. Punishes newer players more than veterans that will bullet jump into a corner and pop a few energy pads. Would also like to see shadow-debt mods work here as well considering all the other massive limitations imposed on the ability.

Blessing: Could cap the Damage reduction anywhere from 75-90% and prevent self damage from counting towards the damage reduction. 

Bladestorm: Could theoretically be a stance melee since they ARE the first frame-specific melee weapon. 

[(PSN)Zashukitsune]

They are nerfs, yes, but necessary to fix some severely broken warframes who cheese any content they're pointed at. If you think the frames are ruined for it, then you've gotten lazy too (I am definitely not exempt from the lazy either) 

As for making late game content "impossible" without cheese frames, that's an issue with the late game itself that DE needs to focus on, no doubt, but at least they're starting somewhere.   It'll be a heck of a lot easier to rebalance the late game when they're not balancing it against unstoppable characters.

[Sajochi]

11 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Trinity's Blessing & Ash's Bladestorm are both under review as well. If we determine a course of action for either of these powers, we will let you know here. Feel free to link us threads on either of these with your thoughts!

I decided to read this and find the word "nerf." It doesn't say nerf. Where is everyone getting this assumption that it's a nerf? For all we know, it could just be a mechanic change that keeps the abilities functionally the same but with different casting parameters. Maybe instead of complaining about something not even mentioned, why not give actual insight to these abilities and how you would go about changing them, or give reasons not to touch them. You know, feedback? The whole point of this thread? 

I suggested a change in mechanics for Ash's bladestorm in the past in this thread:

Some people provided insight on the ability and we were able to get somewhere at one point. The point I'm trying to make here is the more you whine and complain about something, the less likely you will get listened to. The devs have more important things to do than read uninformed complaints and rage posts. Try to express your concerns in a productive manner.

[ensignvidiot]

2 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

I decided to read this and find the word "nerf." It doesn't say nerf. Where is everyone getting this assumption that it's a nerf? For all we know, it could just be a mechanic change that keeps the abilities functionally the same but with different casting parameters. Maybe instead of complaining about something not even mentioned, why not give actual insight to these abilities and how you would go about changing them, or give reasons not to touch them. You know, feedback? The whole point of this thread? 

I suggested a change in mechanics for Ash's bladestorm in the past in this thread:

Some people provided insight on the ability and we were able to get somewhere at one point. The point I'm trying to make here is the more you whine and complain about something, the less likely you will get listened to. The devs have more important things to do than read uninformed complaints and rage posts. Try to express your concerns in a productive manner.

 

Okay.

 

Leave bless alone.

 

 

[Fifield]

5 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

I agree with the Excalibur changes and that Exalted Blade has too much power. But by God's sake, what you're asking here means Excalibur would have little to no chance in surviving the more levels we add to enemies. I don't think Life Strike working on Exalted Blade is an issue at all

You could always turn it off, use Radial Blind etc.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, Zookes said:

I understand this nerf needs to happen for the sake of a playable T4I and to shake up trial meta, but what of the sleepfrog, Ivara?
Users are going to switch to her Sleep Arrow for spammable room-filling CC, and with the mirage Blind nerf, she could do it with fewer risks given Prowl and no LoS requirements. This will effectively bench Mirage except for simulor / tonkor spam, as Sleight of Hand and Eclipse are so situational as to be unattractive for any build's focus.

 

Compare this to Wukong's Defy, which requires only marginally more maintenance by recasting every few "deaths" and offers an effective endgame god-mode in addition to usage of more effective weaponry (any primary, secondary, melee). Upon Valkyr being altered with greater energy costs, Tonkor Wukongs will simply take her place and the infinite god-mode cheese tactics will continue regardless.

It takes 25 sleep arrows to cover the effective area of 1 prism. No, they really won't step down to Ivara, much as I adore her, to be the 'lock everyone down for me forever'. Vaubans, Banshees, Rhinos, Nezhas and more will all do the job better sooner.

 

As for Tonkor Wukongs? Well, soon Tonkor in general isn't going to be quite so mindless to use...

It currently costs less energy per second for a Valkyr to be invulnerable and be able to carve easily through Sortie-level enemies than it does for the queen of "push 4 and forget" Ember to maintain a World On Fire that does effectively nothing (except being a semireliable CC if augmented) against the same levels.

We don't yet know how far the energy increase will go. Three times as high? 1.9 energy per second, hardly a complete lost cause. Five times? 3.15 energy per second, which is still not bad compared to some other toggle drainers. Not to mention the time to get there, since it's a gradual ramp...

[(PSN)inkdevil1]

These are some bad changes,honestly there are more things that need addresing than nerfing frames that perform well,does anyone use the weapons from the market place?

[Sajochi]

5 minutes ago, ensignvidiot said:

 

Okay.

 

Leave bless alone.

 

 

Ok, why? Either you missed the point or do not care enough. Why should Bless be left alone? What are your reasons? Can you do so calmly and get the point across? I'm curious, imagine you're talking to the devs directly, why should bless be left as is?

Edited May 27, 2016 by CrazyCortex
Comma, why you betray me

[----Mr.Meow----]

Thank you DE *Sarcastic*!!!

Let's buff enemys and Nerf frames want to do another Dark Souls? Login and Died? Valkyr is berserker, she have immortality becouse she on 1 line in battel. Excalibur you Rework him, buff and now you nerfing him. (facepalm). Mirage............ no comment los, los for everyone.

Ash, everyone using 4skill, okey change it like you want to change Valkyr. Remove immortality and made it energy per enemy. 
Trinty, Trinity Supporter frame, heal and energy, if you want to do long run you need Trinity. Please stop nerf her.

and last, you can listening people, but not all the time. If you not sure about something cheak it but not give and after nerf.

Start think by yourself. and sometimes ask people do they want to see this chage in game or not.

 

Thank you all ( no joke) Have a nice time!! Good luck!!

[DeMeritus]

Primed Flow is now going to become a mandatory mod on valkyr.

Hmmm...  Guess the price players can sell the mod for might be going up dramatically.

Has the valkyr change been balanced with regard to energy reduction sorties, and eximus enemies that cause energy drain?

I'm suspecting there are also going to be incoming enemy buffs accompanying all these changes.

Edited May 27, 2016 by DeMeritus

[Noteybook]

5 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

Ok, why? Either you missed the point or do not care enough. Why should Bless be left alone? What are your reasons? Can you do so calmly and get the point across? I'm curious, imagine you're talking to the devs directly, why should bless be left as is?

Bless is the only viable way to do T4 missions after the 40 minute mark. Especially Survival. It is the only way to make Raids work. The damage from enemies in LoR and NM LoR are impossible to deal with without either CC or Bless.

It's removing a vital part of end-game. How about instead of "looking at bless", DE looks at "enemies with Infinite scaling that can one-shot you by sneezing in your general direction" ?

Edited May 27, 2016 by Noteybook
spelling error

[Mongobeef]

19 minutes ago, Noteybook said:

 

This pretty much.

I feel like I'm just like a grandparent that people are waiting for to die. Nothing I say matters, my thousands of hours playing don't matter, my input from a long-term perspective doesn't matter. I'm just being waited out so someone newer can take my spot, and so I can stop bothering everyone..

Sure, Bless seems OP in the starmap, but it's the only wait to make Raids or level enemy 60+ possible. Same for Prism. EB was fun as is, and made Excalibur, the poster boy of Warframe, actually fun to play.

I'm just saddened by the disconnect. Again and again Veteran players have reached out to DE with actual solutions to major game problems, but are ignored, and even ridiculed/banned. So what's the point of even saying anything, anymore. I'm going to be drowned out by people who don't play the game, who don't play these frames, and who won't hit the wall I've hit for another year or two minimum. And by then, more new people can take their place, and complain about how OP this or that frame is.. without having actual perspective of the game, from top to bottom.

Welcome to the feeling of entropy. Every time I think I can come back to this game they do something new that just keeps pushing us all toward the inevitable heat death of the universe.

 

EMBRACE IT TENNO. STALKER DID NOTHING WRONG 

[Sajochi]

6 minutes ago, Noteybook said:

Bless is the only viable way to do T4 missions after the 40 minute mark. Especially Survival. It is the only way to make Raids work. The damage from enemies in LoR and NM LoR are impossible to deal with without either CC or Bless.

It's removing a vital part of end-game. How about instead of "looking at bless", DE looks at "enemies with indefinite scaling that can one-shot you by sneezing in your general direction" ?

Completely valid reasons except they never mentioned exactly what they're doing. For all we know, it could be a major improvement to blessing that comes up, not a downright nerf. You can't just say something is going to happen without evidence. That's an assumption. Your point on raids and 40+ minute missions (although I don't really get why anyone thinks that's an enjoyable thing to do besides for the bragging rights) is entirely valid. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by CrazyCortex
How do I English?

[Zookes]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

It takes 25 sleep arrows to cover the effective area of 1 prism. No, they really won't step down to Ivara, much as I adore her, to be the 'lock everyone down for me forever'. Vaubans, Banshees, Rhinos, Nezhas and more will all do the job better sooner.

Use cases including the T4I map and LoR tileset, a max range / duration Ivara can lock down the entire area in 1, if not 4 arrows, and the effect lasts much longer than Blind.

Aside from the potential requirement of multiple arrows, the only reason why Mirage's ability is preferred in lieu of Ivara's is that blindness and sleep are applied the same way by both abilities and both effects accomplish the same things, so users opt for the easier ability - Mirage's Blind. With Blind requiring LoS, now Sleep Arrow will be used to blanket maps instead as it's more effective to ignore level geometry than abide it.

That's where my recommendation for Blind to become a controllable projectile comes in. If Blind requires LoS, then let it be a channeled ability and let the user navigate it around the level geometry to maximize effectiveness.

[Morty2989]

I remember defending the change to duration+efficiency last year because "oh man it's gotta be the first part of balancing for the star map rework right?"

Well, it wasn't. Here we are again operating under the same assumptions. It's just nerfs mang, just nerfs.

[DxAdder]

Prism:

As many have said the LoS calculation/issues are of great concern, I fear without fixing this code the powers ability will be greatly diminished forcing players to constantly re-casting.

Passives:

Oberon & Hydroid, these are by far the weakest Ideas possible, I would really re-think these and find something that is actually useful.

 

[nannoblack]

RIP Mirage, Valkyr, Excalibur. Time to delete this game.

[DxAdder]

21 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

I decided to read this and find the word "nerf." It doesn't say nerf. Where is everyone getting this assumption that it's a nerf? For all we know, it could just be a mechanic change that keeps the abilities functionally the same but with different casting parameters. Maybe instead of complaining about something not even mentioned, why not give actual insight to these abilities and how you would go about changing them, or give reasons not to touch them. You know, feedback? The whole point of this thread? 

I suggested a change in mechanics for Ash's bladestorm in the past in this thread:

Mesa was "Re-worked" so people should be concerned, But I would wait until DE presents what they intend to do.

 

[Tobiah]

why would we penalize (effectively) a player who could be just using one of the more "difficult" maneuvers for newer players and one of the best attacks with close range exalted blade by making them pay per-use of it? That is one extension of what happens.

with or without the RB on spin attack, the spin attack is higher damage than normal attacks

the slide attack, just at max rank of the ability, does more than double that of the normal slash

Also think of people who'd use the spin to move around the map. I personally like to use it even though we don't have stamina or anything. I just think walking is awfully boring

also, let's say a new player gets their hands on excalibur, which is pretty common, and finally is able to use exalted blade. they might have figured out how much extra damage normal slide attacks do, so they're like "oh, totally, let's wail on this lancer". with this change, they waste what could've been 5-10 times more time with the ability on about 2 enemies, and would be none the wiser, because it's not like they knew beforehand that it costed anything extra to do slide attacks.

as i said in the comment above: tie it to channeling, since that's what it's akin to anyway, with the cast cost change

[xXDeadsinxX]

For Valkyr, maybe take out rip line and replace it with something better? No one uses at all unless your stuck and want to get out of the map which sure is fun but that's not what it's supposed to be used for. Rip line is cool but sadly no, the damage is horrible as well. 

Hysteria on the other hand, this one is a hard one, maybe nerf it, but not nerf to through the floor. Like Valkyr will be God and not die, sure it's useful and awesome and fun, but that has to change to just press 4 to win.

Trinity, yes she needs a little bit of a tweak and just make it different how the power works? I don't know I never used her.

Ash, where do I even start... Ash's 4th ability either needs to nerfed through the floor or just taken out cause it's press 4 to win and it's difficult to find a good way to nerf it or rework the ability. IMO I think you should just take it out of the game and replace with a different cool ult, sure bladestorm is cool but just no.

Mirage, I'm glade she is getting what she deserves, Mirage is such a fun frame and cool to use. The rework for her is good.

EB, I'm glad your looking at this DE, cause Excalted Blade is way to OP.

I am very glad your looking at frames that need reworks/teaks. :)

Edited May 27, 2016 by xXDeadsinxX
Doubled words

[DuskLegendary]

I'm just so frustrated that I don't really know what to say at this point. All I can say is that I sincerely hope that DE drops some of these nerfs they're thinking of, especially the Mirage and Trinity nerf.

People can agree with these nerfs all day long, but I promise you those who do don't go for hour long T3 and T4s nor do they raid, or else they wouldn't be so quick to jump on the nerf band wagon. DE, want to give us some tweaks that will make us happy? How about fixing up some of those lesser used weapons and make them more viable for end game? Scythes need some love. How about fixing up Mesa and Zephyr, making Hydroid scale better so I can more easily farm in higher tier content? We don't need more nerfs to add to the pile.

Edited May 27, 2016 by DuskLegendary

[PainTako]

In all honesty they just need to make exalted blade no go through walls and doors. It's the real reason Excalibur is so damn strong, let me kill everything through all walls. Yeah that's a smart idea DE.

Also the energy consumption for using radial blind in EB is so dumb, if you want this to be a good change make the range not tiny, more like 75% of blinds range.

Of course EB over shadows Excal's abilities, his 1 is S#&$, 2 is okay vs high level enemies where you need the damage amp or for CC, 3 is good for Draco but the mechanic of the ability is bad out of Draco. And his 4 is where all of his power budget went so duh it's going to be inherently better. Not to mention his passive makes his EB do more damage another fact that his power budge was thrown into his 4.

If you really want to balance Excal first make EB not go through as many walls if any, and up the energy per second. 2.5 for that strong of an ability is OP, make it like 5-8.

 

Love, a salty MR 17 Excalibur main.

[Sajochi]

8 minutes ago, Noteybook said:

I appreciate your naivety in thinking that a "change" will be anything but a nerf. I've been here too long to have any more hope of a positive outcome. And do you have any evidence that this "change" will have a positive outcome for the players? You are assuming as much as I am.

And why are you assuming I'm doing Raids and 40min+ T4 for Fun? Why would I do those for fun, or bragging rights? I do those to get things I NEED or WANT. Prime parts, rare containers, things I cannot get outside very specific missions. They aren't enjoyable missions. Well, Raids kinda are, or at least LoR is. They are things I do to get things so I can stop grinding and just play whatever frame/weapon combo I want, wherever. I don't want to be stuck in end-game, but I am, because of how piss-poor the drop tables are. 0.5% drop chance, anyone?

I'm leaving things open because I'm not sure what they even mean by that one part alone. It's not being naive, it's lookinh at things from all sides and finding the most  logical conclusion. To say these are definitely nerfs is not a logical conclusion. The devs asked specifically what our ideas are for these, which means they're reading them, and everyone wants to yell and scream. That's the opposite of what was asked, and I do believe nerfs will happen if everyone just complains about it.

I do 60 minute solo farms with Chroma in T4S. I enjoy it up to the 20 minute mark, and after I just feel bored. I know I have to do the mission to get the stuff I want, but I don't necessarily need it. Find other things to do in game or take a break for a bit. You may not have the exact weapon combo you want, but there are other things you could do.

[Guest]

Just did a nightmare RAID ,I was Blind Mirage ... and it was AWESOME.

Got 6 more NM keys to burn ... before DE nerfs Mirage lol

Edited May 27, 2016 by Guest