Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[HopeFrayorl]

Damn talk about the nerf bat, on the result not the cause.

I'm getting flashbacks to how SOE treated the VS in PS2.

 

TL:DR BOOOO

[Purromancer]

I'm not too sure how I feel about this. On one hand, it's good that frames are a bit more aligned with each other, but this also means that some of the more brutal content will be way more frustrating to get through. Many sorties with Corpus are already so frustrating to play, and I can't imagine weakening our frames is going to make it any better. I guess I'll wait and see how it pans out, but not feeling it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

21 minutes ago, b0_on said:

Prism while LoS change is justified, u should not forget buffing casting animation and the fact that Any other Frame will take Mirage's place with a max Range CC build (ivara, banshee, rhino, etc). Give and take is important, u take something away, give a slight quality of life improvement, so that it would not turn into another Mesa's Peacemaker or anything along the lines.

One of these things does not belong on the list of CC alternatives..

Maxed range Prism radius: 75

pi*r² = 17671m² covered

Maxed range Sleep Arrow radius: 15

pi*r² = 706m² covered

_{yes it should be volume not area but the point still stands}

 

"Give and take" is not important when you are unilaterally higher than the balance curve. That's the point of acknowledging a trivialisation. As in, not just "too strong in strengths and too weak in weaknesses, rebalance to tighten the upper and lower bands". It's completely out of balance and is not entitled to keep its overall effectiveness level with a tightening approach.

Mesa's Peacemaker is merely an example of having simply taken a little too much. Less obscene base energy drain in its new incarnation and it would've been fine, really.

[naufaltsar]

Please refund our forma and stuff if you gonna nerf it

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, naufaltsar said:

Please refund our forma and stuff if you gonna nerf it

Haha, no. Do players get forma refunded when new, broken abilities outclass the functionality of older ones from previously played frames?

 

Massively looking forward to this kind of salty response when the weapon fixes come in too. Oh yes.

[Tobiah]

If I'm reading this right, I now have to pay for the more efficient slide-spin attack, even if I'm not trying to radial blind? This seems like an oversight.... couldn't we change it so that it only does the blind on the spin attack if you're channeling exalted blade so that the user at least had a choice to consume more energy?

[Sajochi]

1 minute ago, Tobiah said:

If I'm reading this right, I now have to pay for the more efficient slide-spin attack, even if I'm not trying to radial blind? This seems like an oversight.... couldn't we change it so that it only does the blind on the spin attack if you're channeling exalted blade so that the user at least had a choice to consume more energy?

This sounds doable. Having to expend energy unintentionally sounds counterintuitive. This will give user choice, which is always welcome in my book. 

[Naaru]

I am not entirely against the changes to Exalted Blade.

 

However, I urge the developers to improve the duration and range to the accessory Radial Blind that is part of the skill.

If it's going to cost a decent amount of energy at every cast, it better be worth a more considerable debuff to enemies.

In its current state, it would not be worth the energy spent; it would make more sense to cast an actual Radial Blind than waste energy for a half-baked version thereof.

[NightElve]

9 hours ago, theclinton said:

Interesting changes, could mix things up a bit.

 

Valkyr changes will force people to put more thought into using Hysteria

This changes won't go very well with most of the community, 1. Enemy scaling:  should be given the highest priority, i'm 100% sure this is just  pre-written cycles of constant nerfs and buffs, balance to (fix counter enemy AI and scaling(game mechanics system), well let's hope the balance is reasonable and doesn't make players trash that 1 frame completely(Mesa), well research and new squad synergies will arise for sure, (not with the intention of players creating boredom for themselves, but just to make the game easier and fun for them :) everyone wants that, well at least the majority, (but then they will get nerfed) and so on and on and on.....(just an endless cycle).

 

Hoping  for  the  best  from  this  changes  :)

 

[DuskLegendary]

I honestly don't get why people are so happy about everything getting nerfed into the ground. T3 and T4 endurance runs are now going to be harder. Raids are now going to be harder, nightmare raids are now going to be harder. To an extent, Sorties are now going to be harder. But the thing is, it's not going to be harder because it was made to be challenging, it's going to be harder because a handful of meta frames are being nerfed into the dirt thus making objectives harder to complete.

So in other words, more fake difficulty. Want me to stop trivializing gameplay? How about making a set enemy level cap first instead of allowing them to scale out of control? Why not make their armor set too so that doesn't scale out of control? How do I combat all of the broken enemies in this game when you're taking away the few viable alternatives I have to do so? 

The thing is, these things that trivialize gameplay at lower levels, really don't do so in higher tier end game content. Also, some of these frames have a niche, and I feel that with these changes, they're going to fall into mediocrity along with Zephyr and Mesa.

[gluih]

These changes look pretty good overall.

I would've liked more reason to go into melee as excalibur. Maybe changing exalted blade so it doesn't generate waves would be good. Instead of every wave it would be on charged attacks and then a combo that sends out a number of waves at the end.

I also wouldn't mind if enemies blinded by radial blind were only vulnerable to finishers after being hit by radial javelin aswell.

Really looking forward to trinity changes. I like link, but it is overshadowed by EV and blessing. Spamming either of those abilities is't really fun imo. EV should be changed to a buff/aura, so it doesn't have to be recast as much and the blessing DR should probably be linked to every single players hp and/or project the DR from link to other players rather than buffing the whole map.

When playing as a healer I also found that there is way to much burst damage in the game right now. Most of the time players are either at full hp or almost full hp and then dead within seconds, leaving no time to react even for a trinity. This is a problem with enemy scaling and while I don't think endless missions have to be balanced perfectly, at level 80-100 this is already a problem. There should be a reasonable time to react to anything that kills a warfrae this fast. Sidenote- I would like an option to show the hp of other players companions, so healers can also take care of them.

For ash it would be great if bladestorm worked better with the rest of his abilities. I would change it, so enemies within range are marked.

• Anything dealing damage to marked enemies causes a bleed proc, this includes teammates
• Using shuriken on marked enemies doesn't cost any energy.
• Using teleport on a marked enemy also doesn't cost energy and causes the current bladestorm animation. If the target is not killed immediatly one of the shadows is left behind.

I also thought that it would be great if there was a augmant that slowed down enemies affected by bladestorm, but maybe that would make it too similar to Novas molecular prime.

Finally a change to the way armor reducing effects work would be great. If they stacked additive, it would make them a lot more useful. This way corrosive projection wouldn't be the only effective way to remove armor completely. In this case corrosive procs would still stack multiplicative and then be added to the rest of the armor reduction, otherwise it would be too easy to completely remove armor with corrosive procs.

[Morty2989]

Uhm, at the end of the day I'd rather see missions/drop tables tweaked so we didn't necessarily *have* to use some of the nerfed powers like we do. But ok, I guess nerfing everything is fine too. If this doesn't gel with the new star chart and things don't even out a little, I'm really done, enough is enough.

[Geraion]

2 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

I honestly don't get why people are so happy about everything getting nerfed into the ground. T3 and T4 endurance runs are now going to be harder. Raids are now going to be harder, nightmare raids are now going to be harder. To an extent, Sorties are now going to be harder. But the thing is, it's not going to be harder because it was made to be challenging, it's going to be harder because a handful of meta frames are being nerfed into the dirt thus making objectives harder to complete.

So in other words, more fake difficulty. Want me to stop trivializing gameplay? How about making a set enemy level cap first instead of allowing them to scale out of control? Why not make their armor set too so that doesn't scale out of control? How do I combat all of the broken enemies in this game when you're taking away the few viable alternatives I have to do so? 

The thing is, these things that trivialize gameplay at lower levels, really don't do so in higher tier end game content. Also, some of these frames have a niche, and I feel that with these changes, they're going to fall into mediocrity along with Zephyr and Mesa.

That's not a warframe problem, it's a scaling problem. Mirages blind is obnoxious. Max range lol entire map is blind through 50 layers of walls and cover, yeah no, that's BS. They nerfed this for Excal ages ago, so that it took this long for Mirage is a miracle.

 

Enemy scaling is the problem, not 'frames.

[Arkvold]

I see a lot of people complaining about the removing of cheese tactics, like Blind Mirage, Blade Turret Excalibur, Invulnerable Hysteria Valkyr, and the potential nerf to Ash's Bladestorm (the most infamous "press 4 to win" ability) and Trinity's Blessing.

Honestly, I feel they're right to complain.

The high-end gameplay on Warframe (Specifically speaking, sorties, long-term survival, excavation, and defense missions) is full of cheese tactics like these.  However, it's also full of crazed scaling mechanics that make such cheese necessary.  If you remove the cheese tactics, without also removing the need for cheese tactics, you're just going to upset your playerbase.

The biggest problem with Warframe is scaling, to the point where survival is binary.  Health and shield in any quantity may as well not exist, as you are either invulnerable, under the influence of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of points of effective HP, or you are dead the moment you are exposed to enemy fire.  Fix this endemic issue, then fix abilities that 'trivialize the game' and you will have fewer complaints about it.

If you wish players to stop resorting to tactics that 'trivialize' your content, then stop giving that content the means to trivalize players without those tactics.  It's that simple.

[Faaaz]

Exalted blade nerfing amd ash's bladestorm "rework" are not fair.. what should we do to be a nice damage dealer in sorties and high level survivals? I don't want to use tonkor or simulor!! Buff the classic assault rifle like the braton prime

[Geraion]

2 minutes ago, gluih said:

These changes look pretty good overall.

I would've liked more reason to go into melee as excalibur. Maybe changing exalted blade so it doesn't generate waves would be good. Instead of every wave it would be on charged attacks and then a combo that sends out a number of waves at the end.

I also wouldn't mind if enemies blinded by radial blind were only vulnerable to finishers after being hit by radial javelin aswell.

Really looking forward to trinity changes. I like link, but it is overshadowed by EV and blessing. Spamming either of those abilities is't really fun imo. EV should be changed to a buff/aura, so it doesn't have to be recast as much and the blessing DR should probably be linked to every single players hp and/or project the DR from link to other players rather than buffing the whole map.

When playing as a healer I also found that there is way to much burst damage in the game right now. Most of the time players are either at full hp or almost full hp and then dead within seconds, leaving no time to react even for a trinity. This is a problem with enemy scaling and while I don't think endless missions have to be balanced perfectly, at level 80-100 this is already a problem. There should be a reasonable time to react to anything that kills a warfrae this fast. Sidenote- I would like an option to show the hp of other players companions, so healers can also take care of them.

For ash it would be great if bladestorm worked better with the rest of his abilities. I would change it, so enemies within range are marked.

• Anything dealing damage to marked enemies causes a bleed proc, this includes teammates
• Using shuriken on marked enemies doesn't cost any energy.
• Using teleport on a marked enemy also doesn't cost energy and causes the current bladestorm animation. If the target is not killed immediatly one of the shadows is left behind.

I also thought that it would be great if there was a augmant that slowed down enemies affected by bladestorm, but maybe that would make it too similar to Novas molecular prime.

Finally a change to the way armor reducing effects work would be great. If they stacked additive, it would make them a lot more useful. This way corrosive projection wouldn't be the only effective way to remove armor completely. In this case corrosive procs would still stack multiplicative and then be added to the rest of the armor reduction, otherwise it would be too easy to completely remove armor with corrosive procs.

No, that's silly for Excal. You can build for his abilities as you see fit, chaining them just makes him a muuuuch worse Nezha. It's fine as it is now. The changes to EB are ok as well, means I can go back to not using it most of the time and not feel awful for not using it, because it's so strong, you'd almost be $&*&*#(%& not to. Even on a finisher build.

 

Bleed proc for everything? No... Why?

...you can't use any other abilities while you spam 4, no point. And no point in using shuriken either, it sucks, and costs valuable time to use on -2- enemies. And not always the 2 you aim at.

Er...I smell Zed here. Also...why?

 

Leaving that to DE, as long as his stealth and TP still work more or less as they do now, I'm fine. Because I actually really dig the finisher TP. Which would render the change (or vice versa, if it happened) moot.

 

I agree with the armor reduction, it would help a little against insane enemy scaling.

 

As for healers, can't say much there, I despise spamming Trin's 2, and nothing else. Ever. Ugh.

[Faaaz]

3 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

I see a lot of people complaining about the removing of cheese tactics, like Blind Mirage, Blade Turret Excalibur, Invulnerable Hysteria Valkyr, and the potential nerf to Ash's Bladestorm (the most infamous "press 4 to win" ability) and Trinity's Blessing.

Honestly, I feel they're right to complain.

The high-end gameplay on Warframe (Specifically speaking, sorties, long-term survival, excavation, and defense missions) is full of cheese tactics like these.  However, it's also full of crazed scaling mechanics that make such cheese necessary.  If you remove the cheese tactics, without also removing the need for cheese tactics, you're just going to upset your playerbase.

The biggest problem with Warframe is scaling, to the point where survival is binary.  Health and shield in any quantity may as well not exist, as you are either invulnerable, under the influence of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of points of effective HP, or you are dead the moment you are exposed to enemy fire.  Fix this endemic issue, then fix abilities that 'trivialize the game' and you will have fewer complaints about it.

If you wish players to stop resorting to tactics that 'trivialize' your content, then stop giving that content the means to trivalize players without those tactics.  It's that simple.

You got the point dude

[DuskLegendary]

10 minutes ago, Geraion said:

That's not a warframe problem, it's a scaling problem. Mirages blind is obnoxious. Max range lol entire map is blind through 50 layers of walls and cover, yeah no, that's BS. They nerfed this for Excal ages ago, so that it took this long for Mirage is a miracle.

 

Enemy scaling is the problem, not 'frames.

Yes, it is obnoxious, but so are lv. 90 enemies trying to blow up the bomb on raids and CC being the only way to really stop them. Right now, as the game is currently, nerfing everything is not the solution to the problem. Yes, these things do need to to be fixed, but not right now, not when there's game breaking enemy balancing issues riddled throughout "end game", and that's what I don't think most people are getting. I feel as if this is one step forward, and about 3 steps back.

The core issues are not being fixed here. As you said, enemy scaling is the problem here, so leave the frames alone that can actually contend with those ridiculously broken scaling enemies. Do you know why I play Warframe? I play so I can do daily end game content with my friends and clan members. What is the point in playing if it gets to the point to where I can no longer do these things, because everything got smashed with the nerf hammer?

 

Edited May 27, 2016 by DuskLegendary

[Geraion]

2 minutes ago, Faaaz said:

Exalted blade nerfing amd ash's bladestorm "rework" are not fair.. what should we do to be a nice damage dealer in sorties and high level survivals? I don't want to use tonkor or simulor!! Buff the classic assault rifle like the braton prime

...aquire some actual skill and weapons? Pressing 4 isn't 'good'. It's obnoxious. You win at damage without doing anything other than 1 click once in a while, other people are inclined to stop caring because oh, Ash is hogging everything, whatever then, or it goes the opposite way of doggedly trying to take his kills first because he's an obnoxious tw4t.

 

EB changes are ok.

[IceColdHawk]

9 hours ago, Valsako said:

Nerf Trin's blessing and I'll quit the game after playing well over 1,000 hours since 2013. That simple.

Mirage is fine, I get it, the blind is OP. Valkyr is also fine, I get it, staying in Hysteria forever with no reason to ever leave it is kind of stupid. I feel Excal's mini radial blind nerf is kinda silly since it was never that effective to begin with and it seems a little weird to be charged energy for what's possible to just accidentally engage, but whatever.

But do not nerf Trin's blessing. If you do that, what's the point of even using Trin outside of EV? If you make her healing useless, it'll be just another Well of Life - another 100% useless ability. At that rate you may as well go EV Trin so you can just heal everybody's shields, because blessing's current design is the only thing that makes it a better option for health support. These are the only ways you could limit it:

Range - Making the range no longer be infinite would just render the whole ability pointless since this is a game where everybody flies everywhere, it's painful enough to give people energy without them missing it completely unless you use an EV build.

Damage reduction - Removing or reducing the damage reduction given from HP regenerated would just make EV far more favorable. Costs virtually nothing, and rapidly buffs + restores shields. Why spam a 4 to heal everyone for no other benefit when you can do that?

Healing - Reducing the amount the ability heals would defeat the purpose of even having it as a 4th. What good is a 4th that does absolutely nothing to enemies if it doesn't even properly heal you and your allies?

These are the only three ways you could possibly nerf Blessing, and all three of them are bad ideas. How else would you nerf it? Because I know you don't want to buff it. Just stop right there and don't even think about it. Trin's in a good place right now as she is aside from her useless first ability, since she has zero offense abilities, and she's entirely built toward tanking while offering support. Why nerf the one and only thing she's made for? Do you WANT her to be useless? Do you WANT Trin to join the ranks of Hydroid and Mesa? Do you WANT her to be a one-trick pony with EV? No? Then leave her as she is. Thanks.

Amen.

[Slaviar]

And again. Another bandaid. Seriously DE, how much longer you will ignore enemy scaling? All these nerfs are pointless as long as core problem remains

[MithrilDragon]

Can someone explain why Excalibur's Exalted Blade does Radial Blind for a spin attack?  Wouldn't it make much more sense for it to do a mini-Radial Javelin instead?

 

[Geraion]

5 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

Yes, it is obnoxious, but so are lv. 90 enemies trying to blow up the bomb on raids and CC being the only way to really stop them. Right now, as the game is currently, nerfing everything is not the solution to the problem. Yes, these things do need to to be fixed, but not right now, not when there's game breaking enemy balancing issues riddled throughout "end game", and that's what I don't think most people are getting. I feel as if this is one step forward, and about 3 steps back.

The core issues are not being fixed here. As you said, enemy scaling is the problem here, so leave the frames alone that can actually contend with those ridiculously broken scaling enemies.

 

 

Then nerf enemy scaling as well. People have said this forever. But no, something else that's broken shouldn't be left that way, DE needs to listen to this complaint specifically. Or like someone else stated, change the way armor reduction works so we can scale up properly along with enemies. Having the threat of being murdered is fine, because then you have to play smarter the later in you get, which is fine, a challenge and skill required, good! But cheese mechanics should still be pruned. We just need either other universal mechanics (like different armor reduction etc) to scale with enemies, or their scaling needs to be capped in some areas.

 

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Geraion

[NightElve]

9 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I can understand the EB wave balancing but I also feel that the energy cost on the spin blind is uncalled for. It's range and duration are already short enough as a balance feature.

DE has a problem from reading community feedback, correct me if im wrong but high ranked players are not fond of using Excal and Valkyr and if they happen to use it mostly then is to counter a broken scaling system, i actually perceived this frames were made for new or mid level players, to help them cope up with enemies as they level up, i personally don't use Valkyr and Excal(only on Draco) to some extent this changes were kind of uncalled for, (correct me if i'm wrong), and DE is better getting player feedback from the normal community Region chat, YouTube channels thats were pure honest reviews are spoken, without any bias-ness, Correct me if i'm wrong again, getting feedback from Forums seems damaging: Why? most players here are far... ranked up, and do seek endgame experience and challenges(topics here are far subjective), but the overall community should be brought into this to, it's like bagging 5 fruits and letting the other 40 roat.. ((my point there is a true contrast or preference gap to what goes in the Forums and the majority community)).

Edited May 27, 2016 by NightElve

[Hybridon]

While this will probably go unoticed:

 

Valkyr:

Her Hysteria should't give invulnerability, it should be Damage Reduction, while as you go Berserker mode, you gain speed when killing enemies. You can keep the energy upcost as you keep the power on, but remember Valkyr is forced to melee only and doesn't have any form of long range damage like Excalibur. She needs to become a true berserker.

Excalibur:
His #3, Radial Javelin is also in need of a review, atm it has low damage and target limitation both on number of targets hit and LOS checks. Make it add to your melee counter and it will synergize perfectly with his kit.

As for his Exalted Blade, the main issue i see is the blind it has comes with a smaller range than his #2, and on the other hand his #2 makes him too slow at killing because it opens up enemies for finishers, that are really slow. Its time finishers got a separate bind so that the player can choose to either use a finisher or slash at the enemy.

And last detail, but for all frames that mods go towards abilities (EB, Hysteria, Atlas, soon Mesa, Ivara, etc) this locks the weapon builds towards the power. Any chance we can get a separate modding page for the abilities? This would help players know what actually has any effect on the powers, while allowing players to use the weapons also at the full potential.

And as you check frames that trivialize, how baout go on to enemies with broken "challenges", like Nullifiers, that simply counter any power that melee frames use to go into close combat, and lock players into long range weapons that have high rate of fire?