Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[Geraion]

1 minute ago, Koed said:

I personally think any ability that makes you invulnerable has no place in this game. Would have liked bigger balls from DE and just changed to a damage reduction based on power stre or something like that.

Slide EB energy cost is pretty dumb though as others have stated.

Heh, if Valkyr got this, ooooh the fanboy war between her and Chroma... Popcorn-worthy.

[Koed]

3 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Heh, if Valkyr got this, ooooh the fanboy war between her and Chroma... Popcorn-worthy.

Well, get good or die trying ^^ There is a reason people doing void long runs dont bring these frames.

[Reifnir]

My main gripe with Mirage Prism nerf is that it will, indeed, become an inferior version of Radial Blind. Extreme cast time, mobility restriction - and now LoS? This will simply mean Mirage will lose one of her viable builds (Blind) and will be left with Total Eclipse/Hall, reducing the diversity.

8 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Abilities which are commonly used to trivialize large amounts of Warframe missions.

Uhm, reality check, please? 

Warframe in its current state is a game where high-tier content difficulty scaling is so out of whack that it can only be overcome with trivialization. A level 100+ Bombard or Napalm can obliterate the entire Tenno team in ONE shot. You can either resort to "unfair advantage" given by hard, permanent crowd control/invulnerability abilities or give up on any difficult content altogether. Try to imagine what Diablo 3 would play like with Toughness stat capped at some point as opposed to ever-growing monster damage. 

I strongly believe you should focus on re-balancing the damage/mitigation and addressing overall scaling issues first, not applying band-aid fixes/crutches that will only  cause more problems long-term. 

 

[Genoscythe]

I think the damage falloff with EB is reasonable, however now excalibur has nothing to compensate for it. You already die lots on t4 missions because excalibur does not have any useful defensive abilities and now even has to come close, which means travel time and probably getting killed by a bombard first. You could at least have made the energy blades travel faster.

 

No words about prism, it had to be done, however you should consider adjusting Interception to not be a pain-in-the-&#! kind of mission. People only trivialize it by finding OP combos for a reason. If it would be fun to play and bring reasonable rewards us Tenno would maybe not try to find a one trick pony for everything.

[achromos]

16 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

Yeah, at base. Defy can easily be modded to 1.25 per second (do you even efficiency + duration) with Rage giving you energy in a feedback loop while giving you 8 seconds of pure invulnerability (or go 1.77 per second with 14s of invulnerability). It would take almost 2 minutes of you doing nothing for you to die as Wukong against a level 80 Corrupted Heavy Gunner. Meanwhile, Hysteria is going to have it's cost ramp up as it's used. Likewise, turning off Defy doesn't risk downing you.

In order to turn defy off, you must make sure you won't get one shot killed before you can reactivate it. You cannot do this in the middle of a t4 void room at 60+ minutes or you do risk dying.

Same as hysteria now.  Also,  hysteria energy drain can be lowered to a point right now where you can be invincible all the time provided you pick up energy orb drops.  That and now hysteria users actually have to disengage from the fight for a second if they are taking a pounding like if you use defy. 

Valkyr has 1200+ armor with a proper warcry build.  What does wukong have?

Edited May 27, 2016 by achromos

[Geraion]

6 minutes ago, Koed said:

Well, get good or die trying ^^ There is a reason people doing void long runs dont bring these frames.

In all fairness, depends if you play group or solo. They're fine solo frames, but not that high on twam-fiber. At least Valkyr has her Wambulance feature though...

[TheTundraTerror]

2 minutes ago, achromos said:

In order to turn defy off, you must make sure you won't get one shot killed before you can reactivate it

Cloudwalker. Run away to safety in the 14 seconds of invulnerability. Next question.

Edited May 27, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[woah_dude]

IF by chance this is a topic that Devs will actually bother to read (*cough Sniper Rework thread and Scott response in latest Devstream cough*), when u "address" some of the Warframes/Weapons, u should consider changing your Philosophical stance while doing so or slightly adjust it at least, i'll elaborate:

When you "Address" a frame/weapon with a random kit of abilities/properties, consider the viability of other abilities/properties in such a manner so, that in the end, when you are DONE with the "rework", you (AND the playerbase) can honestly say - "All of this is viable and good in its own way". 

What i would basically want to see, is that - There should be no useless powers or abilities/weapons. (or extremely undewhelming ones which are never used anyway, caz they basically suck). 

 

In my opinion, people would take a lot more kindly to a variety of changes in the game, if "addressing/Quality of life Changes/Looking into balancing" would not be treated by Playerbase as an euphemism for Nerfhammer.

If it takes you a year/half a year to introduce a bunch of buffs to extremely underwhelming abilities, while in the meantime u nerf at least just as hard, Players will feel robbed  (which in turn generate negative feedback towards Developers, provokes creating of doomthreads and so on). 

Little buffs in patch notes, small changes to abilities here and there would generate a lot of good will, it will make an impression that stuff is not being forgotten for a year (or the fact that no one cares about it) and in fact actively being worked on. 

 

As it stands almost every single frame have some ability that is just BAD and no one ever uses (some have more than 1) and this should change asap. 

 

I personally would still like to see either an outright buffs to skills without the need of augments or alternatively make us work to Fuse augments into abilities of our frames (Real Quality of life change which can become a resource sink and a bit of an endgame goal for vets, since it will essentially free up a slot for something else; several birds with one stone type of deal, the only thing u need to do is not butch the requirements).

In regards to general topic, plenty was said already (broken scaling is main offender, since there is no counter-play to being 1 shotted from 50 meters away by a hitscan automatic weapon or armor scaling in general), but as far as discussed frames  u should consider the following:

 

Mirage's Sleight of Hand is essentially Volt's Overload at this point (and i would argue its worse), after a couple of years we came to the conclusion that Volt's Overload is kind a bad, so why are we doing the same thing over and over again exactly? It is not consisent, gimmicky, have no real damage and "meh" in general -> It should be reworked.

Prism while LoS change is justified, u should not forget buffing casting animation and the fact that Any other Frame will take Mirage's place with a max Range CC build (ivara, banshee, rhino, etc). Give and take is important, u take something away, give a slight quality of life improvement, so that it would not turn into another Mesa's Peacemaker or anything along the lines.

 

Valkyr's and her Hysteria is not mine plate, but players already expressed their "frustration" with her kit in general, she is glitchy, have long animations which could use improvements, sometimes they simply don't work or just feel underwhelming. Also Valkyr is somewhat popular for newer players since she is relatively easy to obtain and quite tanky (and for noobs this is an important matter, since well, scaling and all that).

 

Excalibur is a Starter frame, so when u "treat him", don't forget that it is unlikely that new players have a 4-5 forma build with maxed Corrupted and Primed mods, with a couple of Arcane Sets for helm and syandana + maxed Naramon and a bunch of mods which make him extremely strong. Don't butcher and punish newer players in your pursuit of balance, consider buffs or slight changes to skills again (i saw a suggestion of 360 energy wave for spin attack, it can be capped at 15 meters or smtn), add some armor or health, etc.

 

As for Trinity and Ash, i can see why u would like to change the way they work, but the main reason people use them remains the same - broken scaling and efficiency in the way, it deals with content and the necessity of repetition to get stuff we want. I'll repeat one more time, u want to rework something extremely strong - Make everything else at least Very good and viable, THEN u can nerf it to a more reasonable level (but be careful not to make it useless, so it still would be worth to use the ability). 

Balance requires Surgical tools and precision, not a 100 ton Hammer smacked onto someones head (and then abandoned for years, until you agree with playerbase that: "yes, in fact these abilities suck &#! and we would like to change them"). 

 

You have quite an active playerbase, plenty of Veterans who give you feedback on what feels bad and "S#&$ty", use their knowledge and expertise, don't get caught in your "artistic vision" of whats "cool", players who spent thousands of hours playing the game know more about mechanics and how things work, so don't disregard their feedback. You have Founders/Design council after all, plenty of them are competent i'm sure, listen to them as well (unless they are a bunch of nodding heads, but somehow i doubt it). 

[Kutsus]

Nice to see Prism finally getting the change it shouldve gotten a long time ago!

Everything seems to actually be fair for once, instead of overnerfing like usual.

Altho, i really don't see how the energy cost on EB slide attack blind is necessary? It has terrible range anyway, not to mention with efficiency mods the energy cost will be almost non-existant anyway, so why even implement it?

[achromos]

Just now, TheTundraTerror said:

Cloudwalker. Next question.

Paralysis.   Or bullet jump, Next?

 

Though you do realise that cloudwalker does take energy too.  So that base 5 energy per second gets even heavier.  Next?

[vazerd68]

thoses changes are on a good track, I'm currently writing a more complete and effective uncheese.

[(PSN)LiamRising]

while im happy with valkyr's change the only issue im going to see from it now is what happens when it gets nullified by a nullfier or those corpus skating enemies that surely would mean near instant kill depending on how much damage you will take can this maybe be adjusted since the skating guys in particular can just come out of nowhere and disable it and with enemies having 100% flawless accuracy it will be death essentially like maybe it cancels out  the damage or only haves the damage you would take from it. 

[TheTundraTerror]

5 minutes ago, achromos said:

Paralysis

Let me remind you: 20m range. Defy? Just find a corner or something.

 

5 minutes ago, achromos said:

Though you do realise that cloudwalker does take energy too. So that base 5 energy per second gets even heavier.

You do realize that it doesn't f***ing matter with Rage + Vitality + (Primed) Flow giving you energy for days? I have 425 total energy on my Wukong. Cloud Walker costs 25 to cast and takes 2.5m to use a whole energy. Using "base 5 energy" is also stupid because do you really think I'm not going to mod that down? Jesus Christ.

Edited May 27, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[Geraion]

4 minutes ago, achromos said:

Paralysis.   Or bullet jump, Next?

 

Though you do realise that cloudwalker does take energy too.  So that base 5 energy per second gets even heavier.  Next?

Mod efficiency and duration then... You have options, use them.

[_Mozzy_]

37 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

@_Mozzy_ The Mirage change is the furthest thing from reasonable. Do you know how long it takes to cast Prism? The answer is "longer than radial blind". Prism also locks you to the ground while Radial Blind doesn't. DE has turned Prism into a worse Radial Blind.

I thought Prism had better range though? Never really used Radial Blind much so I might be wrong. If not then I agree. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, b0_on said:

IF by chance this is a topic that Devs will actually bother to read (*cough Sniper Rework thread and Scott response in latest Devstream cough*), when u "address" some of the Warframes/Weapons, u should consider changing your Philosophical stance while doing so or slightly adjust it at least, i'll elaborate:

When you "Address" a frame/weapon with a random kit of abilities/properties, consider the viability of other abilities/properties in such a manner so, that in the end, when you are DONE with the "rework", you (AND the playerbase) can honestly say - "All of this is viable and good in its own way". 

What i would basically want to see, is that - There should be no useless powers or abilities/weapons. (or extremely undewhelming ones which are never used anyway, caz they basically suck). 

 

In my opinion, people would take a lot more kindly to a variety of changes in the game, if "addressing/Quality of life Changes/Looking into balancing" would not be treated by Playerbase as an euphemism for Nerfhammer.

If it takes you a year/half a year to introduce a bunch of buffs to extremely underwhelming abilities, while in the meantime u nerf at least just as hard, Players will feel robbed  (which in turn generate negative feedback towards Developers, provokes creating of doomthreads and so on). 

Little buffs in patch notes, small changes to abilities here and there would generate a lot of good will, it will make an impression that stuff is not being forgotten for a year (or the fact that no one cares about it) and in fact actively being worked on. 

 

As it stands almost every single frame have some ability that is just BAD and no one ever uses (some have more than 1) and this should change asap. 

 

I personally would still like to see either an outright buffs to skills without the need of augments or alternatively make us work to Fuse augments into abilities of our frames (Real Quality of life change which can become a resource sink and a bit of an endgame goal for vets, since it will essentially free up a slot for something else; several birds with one stone type of deal, the only thing u need to do is not butch the requirements).

In regards to general topic, plenty was said already (broken scaling is main offender, since there is no counter-play to being 1 shotted from 50 meters away by a hitscan automatic weapon or armor scaling in general), but as far as discussed frames  u should consider the following:

 

Mirage's Sleight of Hand is essentially Volt's Overload at this point (and i would argue its worse), after a couple of years we came to the conclusion that Volt's Overload is kind a bad, so why are we doing the same thing over and over again exactly? It is not consisent, gimmicky, have no real damage and "meh" in general -> It should be reworked.

Prism while LoS change is justified, u should not forget buffing casting animation and the fact that Any other Frame will take Mirage's place with a max Range CC build (ivara, banshee, rhino, etc). Give and take is important, u take something away, give a slight quality of life improvement, so that it would not turn into another Mesa's Peacemaker or anything along the lines.

 

Valkyr's and her Hysteria is not mine plate, but players already expressed their "frustration" with her kit in general, she is glitchy, have long animations which could use improvements, sometimes they simply don't work or just feel underwhelming. Also Valkyr is somewhat popular for newer players since she is relatively easy to obtain and quite tanky (and for noobs this is an important matter, since well, scaling and all that).

 

Excalibur is a Starter frame, so when u "treat him", don't forget that it is unlikely that new players have a 4-5 forma build with maxed Corrupted and Primed mods, with a couple of Arcane Sets for helm and syandana + maxed Naramon and a bunch of mods which make him extremely strong. Don't butcher and punish newer players in your pursuit of balance, consider buffs or slight changes to skills again (i saw a suggestion of 360 energy wave for spin attack, it can be capped at 15 meters or smtn), add some armor or health, etc.

 

As for Trinity and Ash, i can see why u would like to change the way they work, but the main reason people use them remains the same - broken scaling and efficiency in the way, it deals with content and the necessity of repetition to get stuff we want. I'll repeat one more time, u want to rework something extremely strong - Make everything else at least Very good and viable, THEN u can nerf it to a more reasonable level (but be careful not to make it useless, so it still would be worth to use the ability). 

Balance requires Surgical tools and precision, not a 100 ton Hammer smacked onto someones head (and then abandoned for years, until you agree with playerbase that: "yes, in fact these abilities suck &#! and we would like to change them"). 

 

You have quite an active playerbase, plenty of Veterans who give you feedback on what feels bad and "S#&$ty", use their knowledge and expertise, don't get caught in your "artistic vision" of whats "cool", players who spent thousands of hours playing the game know more about mechanics and how things work, so don't disregard their feedback. You have Founders/Design council after all, plenty of them are competent i'm sure, listen to them as well (unless they are a bunch of nodding heads, but somehow i doubt it). 

If people (majority)  who type garbage and offtopic nonsense would stop maybe people who write something constructive ^^ would get atention

[TheTundraTerror]

4 minutes ago, _Mozzy_ said:

I thought Prism had better range though?

Doesn't matter if it isn't LoS. But Radial Blind has 62.5m range at max which is the same as Prism.

Edited May 27, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[achromos]

5 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

Let me remind you: 20m range.

 

You do realize that it doesn't f***ing matter with Rage + Vitatilty?

 

Look I know you love valk but she was way overpowered compared to wukong, like I said... warcry in itself can help valk reach armor levels that wukong can only dream of.  1200+  

 

Wukong has a heavy energy drain especially if he is using primal fury too.   So no you aren't convincing me that these changes will break valk and that wukong is op

Edited May 27, 2016 by achromos

[TheTundraTerror]

3 minutes ago, achromos said:

Look I know you love valk

I don't really care about Valk. What I care about is questionable design choices by boneheaded developers. But hey, whatever helps you dismiss my points.

3 minutes ago, achromos said:

watery in itself can help valk reach armor levels that wukong can only dream o

14 seconds of no damage!

3 minutes ago, achromos said:

Wukong has a heavy energy drain especially if he is using primal fury too

No one is going to mod for Primal Fury! Again! Rage + Vitality + Primed Flow!

Edited May 27, 2016 by TheTundraTerror

[--Sensei--]

Can we also make it that excal eb ult waves builds combo multipliers with this nerf =D? It just always bothered me that it couldn't build combos.

[Maxis_55]

6 minutes ago, achromos said:

Paralysis.   Or bullet jump, Next?

 

Though you do realise that cloudwalker does take energy too.  So that base 5 energy per second gets even heavier.  Next?

While I'm still think that Hysteria might be competitive with Defy, reactivating Defy is not hard task to do at all. You just need to jump away from the enemy and use it, or just get behind the corner to make sure no one will shoot you. There's even no need of cloudwalker if situation is not incredibly bad.

[Koed]

30 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

mh... I dont think I truly enjoy reworked hysteria. While the energy drain increase is nice, the central problem-- complete invincibility-- is still there. Still, is an improvement.

I'd also love to add that Equinox is seriously needing some revision. For a frame that should be constantly swapping, she is terribly clunky to use-- mainly due to her abilities deactivating on metamorphosis, instead of transitioning as well. Additionally, Pacify&Provoke needs a buff. The ability is simply useless without the Augment, which in turn further increases the problem mentioned above: Since you need to build up the ability (which, specially on Night form, can be a laborious task), you are virtually locked in one form, at the price of loosing the hard earned build up if you change. Also, dying and nullifiers are particularly frustrating on Equinox, mostly born from the problems mentioned above, and the fact that P&P, unlike most "channeled" abilities, deactivates with death.

Additionally, Mend needs a buff. Urgently.

100% agree with everything you said. The concept of a warframe changing form to suit different roles mid game is an amazing idea but it has been executed so mindblowingly stupid. Why punish switching forms!? It should be rewarding and the augments further encouraged staying in one form. Also, a lot of Equinox players got hit from the duration -efficiency change....

[TPtv]

Our players do not think so at all.
nerf endless acts of you is only making them user fatigue.

[achromos]

4 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

I don't really care about Valk. What I care about is questionable design choices by boneheaded developers. But hey, whatever helps you dismiss my points.

14 seconds of no damage!

No one is going to mod for Primal Fury! Again! Rage + Vitality + Primed Flow!

 I mod for primal.  It's actually good if you aren't Excalibur.... oh wait.

[TheTundraTerror]

2 minutes ago, achromos said:

 I mod for primal

Well, that tells me everything I need to know. Yeah, I'll stick with my Red Critting Fragor Prime until DE nerfs that on me too.

Edited May 27, 2016 by TheTundraTerror