Mag Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[tnccs215]

Quite honestly, Im amazed there are so many negative reviews of reworked Mag. I already took her several times into t3 and t4 defense, and was able to maintain the highest number of kills throughout 40 rounds-- and the gab between me and my teammates getting wider the more we progressed. I'll try to keep this post short and simple:

1)Pull-- it's pretty much the same--that is, a good first ability-- with some nice sound effect and pleasent forced synergy with magnetize. I like it as it is.

2)Magnetize-- Really like its rework, being able to provide scaling damage and defense. Of course, it is not devoid of QoL problems: First, we must be able to prematurely blow it up.. Several abilities such as terrify and Chaos suffered a similar problem, in which too much duration became negative. In an ability in which you can't choose when to use one of its strength, you end up having to rely on luck and limiting your builds. Additionally, while the synergy with shrapnels is quite nice, it ends up being relatively irrelevant: The gravitational pull of magnetize isn't strong enough to keep enemies there enough time (I'm ok with them being able to release themselves from its grasp. Just not so quickly), and, more often than not, shrapnels are just laying around, too far away for magnetize to make use of them. As such, Magnetize must be able to attract shrapnel (and maybe enemies) beyond the bubble's range.

3)Polarize-- I must be the only person that doesn't hate this ability after its rework. I have to admit, however, that it becomes less effective the more it is needed, and quite ironically, it also becomes more necessary to spam-- exactly when its energy consumption increased. However, I can understand DE's side on this. They didn't want it to be the cheese monster it was. With that in mind, why doesn't it becomes a percentual remover again, maybe capped, but with a severely hindered explosion-- that becomes substantially more powerful than it is to enemies inside magnetize bubbles? Don't know. I still think it's an improvement.

4)Crush-- mh... It's a nuke. I like it's synergy with magnetize. However, I also think enemies should release shrapnel-- maybe even one shrapnel per pulse. an overall "ok".

Overall, I like the rework. She is much more fun and interactive to use, and requires more thinking than the ability to press 2. I also think she needs a buff to her energy reserves-- ability use became much more important, to the point I think she can be considered a tactical caster.

Anyway, she's on the right tracks.

Edited May 30, 2016 by tnccs215
damn you auto correct

[continue]

Pull

• amazing honks

Polarize

• travel time caps damage as the first enemies in range deplete the shields of subsequent enemies (assuming enough enemies are grouped together to deplete shields)
  • would have worked fine with % damage, probably (though the actual % could be tuned)
• travel time might make it harder to heal allies (consider allowing the epicenter of polarize to be targetable for faster paced gameplay, or otherwise increase travel speed)
  • unknown whether allies who have left the bubble continue to receive shields as the bubble damages more enemies
• would be nice if it granted an armor buff to mimic the shield healing (and because armor isnt that helpful anyways (probably a bad opinion))
• unknown whether armor debuff scales with base armor or number of enemies grouped together

Magnetize

• being able to magnetize multiple targets is great
• would be better if it was one-handed casting given that it depends on guns
• damages allies?
• lanka

Crush:

• still sad

Overall: energy sadness

[LysanderasD]

My computer's still in the shop, so I have not been able to actively test these changes myself (though I want to--Oh, I want to!)

However, after discussing things with  clanmates over other media, I've got a concept that may be worth considering. I may get slammed for it, but hear me out.

Polarize goes back to percentage scaling... but can do absolutely zero health damage. Permanent armor strip? Sure. Casual shield strip? Okay. But you still have to chew through the opponent's health. Crush and Pull's bonus damage now affect not just the Magnetize target, but all opponents trapped in the bubble with them (with a slightly lower damage buff to compensate?). You said before that Polarize is not meant to be a tool used to fight fleshy targets, that Mag has  other tools for that--make it so!

This put's Mag's role squarely into CC/Debuff, which is, I think where she was designed to be in the first place--as the squishy, mage-like 'tactical' starter.

[Kevlareater]

20 minutes ago, LegionCynex said:

So, why is this topic not getting any responses from DE?, is this just a popcorn & laugh topic?

Because this particular thread was made so that the mods and admins of this site could funnel any of the warframes affected by this update into their respective threads. It's not at all about the feedback, which will very likely remain unacknowledged, but it's about keeping the subforums clean from supposed repeat threads. So yes, it is in a way a comedic thread, if one is on a sadistic streak.

Was gonna make a thread talking about these characters with hopefully humorous backgrounds, but in this stage in the game, unless I was a beloved youtuber I would get about as much airtime as a Corpus drone without a battery. Besides, there's only so much feedback one can read through before it starts to parrot something someone said several pages back.

(topic) Mag's still very squishy, has too little energy to work with now that she's even more of a caster than before, and her prime variant should have some kind of perk over her non-prime. Other worthless feedback to type up:

• Greedy Pull's current function should be standard, with the augment disarming anything capable of holding a gun.
• More could be done with shrapnel. Pulling it could add extra damage and slash up any foes pulled alongside the shrapnel. Perhaps Crush could propel forward the shrapnel and damage/cut up those caught in it.
• Magnetize shouldn't be killing us when we shoot it if we're inside. I learned of this when I shot my Kohm and it hit me with the magnetized foe. As hilarious as that sounds, it needs fixing.
• Let us prematurely pop our balls (Magnetize) to get them out of the way in case we target the wrong enemy or if it gets in the way of our team's weapon fire.

[Windy_Wind]

Crush augment has a part that immobilizes enemy for some seconds. I think that should be built into the ability without the augment mod because as it is right now.....it's pretty weak for a ulti. 

[Snowmotion]

While I'm not impressed overall with this rework for mag, and have yet to sufficiently test her to put into words where exactly I feel things fall down with her and ignoring the obvious complaints such as polarises lack of scaling, one thing I've found is that typically, magnetise is more of a hinderance than a help. Even when ignoring issues such as it destroying my sentinel (or even killing me for that matter) - that I would assume is a bug.

One thing that I would change about it, from my experiences so far - that are going to remain limited while I wait for the dust to settle somewhat, so I can see what shape you plan to leave her, before I form an opinion beyond some knee-jerk one - would be to give it some actual interaction with pull beyond the tired approach of simply boosting damage and calling it synergy. Would it, as such, be possible for the synergy with pull to be changed so that when you target the magnetise effect and use pull upon it, that it briefly boosts the intensity it pulls with and giving it a boost to the range it draws from?

Edit: Before I forget, the manner magnetise is cast in is awkward, as akin to Saryn's spores if the target dies before you finish the animation, it doesn't materialise, and it's rather... sloppy - it appears where the target has managed to move to, instead of the spot they were when you cast it, making it imprecise.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Snowmotion

[TheLexiConArtist]

Well, Vay Hek Assassination historically been one of my most loathed outcomes of the Sortie RNG....

But was actually done with relative ease with new Mag. Thread over, anything that can make that fight manageable solo is absolutely fine in my book.

Strip that insurmountable armour. Freely hit that erratic, temporary, tiny hitbox. Sure, Zenurik focus was pretty much a requirement thanks to having no protection from magnetic procs, but that's a small price to pay.

[Bdkay]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Well, Vay Hek Assassination historically been one of my most loathed outcomes of the Sortie RNG....

But was actually done with relative ease with new Mag. Thread over, anything that can make that fight manageable solo is absolutely fine in my book.

Strip that insurmountable armour. Freely hit that erratic, temporary, tiny hitbox. Sure, Zenurik focus was pretty much a requirement thanks to having no protection from magnetic procs, but that's a small price to pay.

You can do that with ease purely with weapons only, regardless of frames. 

 

that's a bad measure of whether she is good or not, overall she is worse off than she was before

[shirokoi]

I found another problem with Magnetize. Don't get me wrong though, I love this reworked ability so far. However, the ability only takes effect AFTER the animation, and I often found that my teammates have killed my target and Magnetize ends up not putting up its bubble despite using up energy. Result: Wasted energy, wasted time, and you're stuck in place for a whole 2 seconds for enemies to come shoot at you. 

[robbybe01234]

This is a follow-up video of my impressions of her. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snBHyMJb9MY

 

[Bizzaro21]

mag now is great but there is one thing that killed her usability on corpus, the wave mechanic on polarize, yes I know it still scales infinitely and all, but that mechanic makes it only effective if they are around u, because, the wave reaches an enemy, his shield blows up, then the next, same happens, and so on, but no one dies, they just get unshielded which one ospery can fix.... IMO the wave mechanic should be on armor stripping only, the shields` part should`ve stayed the same, it got a range reduction which is enough (and was needed tbh) but now its too weak, its trick was everyone`s shields blowing at the same time so they take the damage all at once and actually die

other than that good work, she is better now, I can actually bring her to a grineer mission and win

[Kirrn.Valanthe]

Couple of things on the mag rework, not sure how much of this has been discussed in the thread, but don't have the time to go through 23+ pages of comments to check.  

Bugs: Not sure how many other weapons this bug affects, but when using the lanka, magnetize will cause future shots that AREN'T aimed at or anywhere near the bubble, to go to the bubble instead of where they're aimed.  Sometimes, it's only 1 shot, have had it happen to 6 consecutive shots, even going to the spot where magnetize was after the effect ended.  Edit: Also seems to do it a lot with the drakgoon & prisma tetra, would assume it also affects the normal tetra as well.  Haven't had it happen when using bows/hitscan weapons yet, or any other of the projectile weapons that I've used. 

Pull: Fine for the most part, would like to see some interaction from pull with the shards created with polarize.  Would also really like to see a push/pull combo, where you tap to pull & hold to push.  Maybe only push targets out to half the range of pull, and instead of a ragdoll, just have them stagger at the end of the push animation?

Magnetize: Very nice ability, by far Mag's best ability atm.  There is obviously the bug with being able to kill yourself/sentinels which I'm sure will be fixed soon enough.  I think it would be nice if Magnetize had some synergy with pull, so that it would actually catch pulled enemies, instead of them just passing quickly through the magnetize bubble.  Maybe that would be too strong, but would be a nice touch.

Polarize: The main reason behind a lot of salt.  Realistically once you get to sortie level enemies, this skill is really only good for the shield restore/overshields from the augment.  It's damage falls off very quickly, especially on corpus, since if they aren't in the initial cast zone, the aoe damage from the wave hitting closer enemies reduces the shields of enemies behind them, which then lowers the potential damage those enemies can do since they will have smaller/no shields.  An easy fix for that would be to just have all of the shields polarize at the same time when the duration for the waves ends.  If their main focus is for this to be a debuff ability > damage, then they need to tie shield/armor reduction to percentages instead of a flat number.  Say if you have 200% power strength, you will strip 90% of an enemies shield/armor + whatever the flat damage is (currently something like 800 or so with that amount of strength.)  This way, the damage doesn't doesn't scale forever, but it acts as a very good debuff tool.  

Examply, a lvl 108 Heavy Gunner has 8405 armor, the 90% strip takes off 7564, leaving them with 841, then that 800 flat kicks in and drop it to 41, casting a second time even without the percentages, the flat amount takes care of the rest, so you don't have the same issue with corrosive procs, where it keeps taking away x% of the new amount until it round down to 0 amor.

Crush: Nothing much to say, the CC it provides is nice if you use it as a panic button or for room clears on lower levels content.  Maybe have targets hit by crush pull in any shards with 3M of their location?  Or create more shards after 3rd damage tick?

Let me know what you think of these changes, not enough, too op, etc.  Appreciate any feedback

Edited May 30, 2016 by Kirrn.Valanthe
Broke up giant wall of text into sections, added bit about Magnetize bug with certain projectile weapons.

[Keltik0ne]

2 hours ago, Bizzaro21 said:

mag now is great but there is one thing that killed her usability on corpus, the wave mechanic on polarize, yes I know it still scales infinitely and all

Nope, it's flat damage now. (it's in the patch notes)

[Bizzaro21]

9 minutes ago, Keltik0ne said:

Nope, it's flat damage now. (it's in the patch notes)

it is? ;-;

so now I see why people hate it

[Poimin]

Shield Transference need rework. Its almost useless if playing against Grineers. Three lvl 50 Corrupted Lancers and i get 450 -> 549 overshield and three lvl 50 Corrupted Crewman i get 450 -> 1650 overshield...  I hope DE change Polarize that damage scales, not flat dmg like its now. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by Poimin

[Nemel]

Some things regarding the rework,

Pull: Hasen't changed much, tho there are some points to maybe enhance/discuss/change:

• The chance for globs on kill isn't as usefull as it seams, since its loses its kill potential rather fast. Since Mag has become rather energy hungry, using the drop chance should be on usage not kill.
• The synergy with magnetize is nice, but you also pull all enemys inside the bubble out of it, which is rather unproductive. It would be nice if casting pull with a magnetize bubble in your line of side would pull them towards the center of that bubble with . (would aslo add a huge cc potential)
• Pull also only synergisis with magnetize, which is just a mist opportunity.

Magnetize: Tho buggy as hell, a nice thing to have, still room to improve:

• Most bugs have already been listed, not going to repeat them all.
• One that I found, is a visual bug. Use magnetize on a sentry in use by a Grineer. After the Grineer kills himselfe, the visual effect of magnetize dies with him.
• Overall usefull, but has some drawbacks. The inability to shoot through is both, blessing and cuse. The extra pull i mention aboth would help, or maybe a way to cance or let it go off earlyer would be nice edition.
• shred bonus dmg is a nice gimmick, but rather useless late game, some kinde of scaling would be nice
• Casting magnetize roots you for a second. Since mag is rather squishy it most likely means death to her (in higher lvls). Jumping is viable but using the skill on the move would be nice too.
• If you start casting the skill and someone kills your target, and the effect wount be activated, which means you wasted 50 energy. It would be nice if it start the effect any way or refunds the energy.
• I realy like its DoT mechanics

Polarize: moste of the points i have for that skill are already made, have some more concerns:

• Regarding its use vs Grineer in raids, Most groops run with a set of 4 CP. I hadn't test it, but the text indicates that the skill stops working on targets without armor or shilds. That would mean, no dmg, no shred, only a shieldrestor for a rather high energy cost. Not realy woth it. I also see no reason to not go with 4 CP since it cant realy strip any armor from lvls above 100. Some scaling would realy help to not only improve the skill, but also get rid of the 4 CP requirement, hence more deversity
• regarding its use vs Corpus. Same regarding the shild reduction aura.
• Shred is only usefull on lower lvls. Either increasing the ways to produce shed or let the damage stored scale
• again rooted while casting
• Enemies hit by Polarize should drop editionale shred if hit by pull (0-1 per pull) and crush (1-2 per tic)

Crush:  bonus dmg is nice but still feals rather meh

• bonus damage from synergy with magnetize is nice but can only hit 4 targes. maybe also apply half the bonus dmg to all enemys in the bubble (that + pull drawing them all in the bubble + production of shred in the bubble + the energy rain from pulls energy on use not death would be a rather sick combo ... also cheese ...)

Energy: Energypool is rather small for her combo requirement, some way to improve her sustain would be much appreciated.

[shirokoi]

The REAL change this Mag rework needs:

1. Change Pull's name to: "The Force"
2. Tap allows us to pull enemies
   1. By the way, it'd be nice if they landed in a neat pile in front of Mag, like the good old days. It'd synergize well with Magnetize.
3. Holding the button allows us to throw them into the a** end of nowhere.

[climatiseur]

Can we change the synergy for pull and magnetize to 

"Casting pull in front of the magnetize bubble will pull the enemies INTO the bubble" rather than flying through it ?

It's quite clear that you want to make magnetize the core damage ability of mag but right now the synergy of them are weak, a double 300 damage means so little after even mid levels. On the other hand, being able to pull enemies INTO the bubble is much more efficient and powerful.

Edited May 31, 2016 by climatiseur

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, climatiseur said:

Can we change the synergy for pull and magnetize to 

"Casting pull in front of the magnetize bubble will pull the enemies INTO the bubble" rather than flying through it ?

It's quite clear that you want to make magnetize the core damage ability of mag but right now the synergy of them are weak, a double 300 damage means so little after even mid levels. On the other hand, being able to pull enemies INTO the bubble is much more efficient and powerful.

I'd like that. Pull doing extra damage to the Magnetize target isn't much of a synergy—I have yet to fight an enemy that I can't just as easily take out with a few shots from Dread, up to and including sortie 3 Vay Hek.

[MasterControl]

You know, I'd actually be happy with Mag's rework if polarize didn't get gutted. I can see that Magnetize is the new future for Mag's damage, and I'm okay with that. But please, give Polarize something better than flat removal. I don't care if you have to murder the damage to keep it balanced, I just want to strip my foes of defenses effectively.

[DYSEQTA]

Mag update is awesome DE. Loving the changes. Mag is actually a generally useful frame now.Thanks!

[tnccs215]

I love how this threads go from "OMG SHE SH*T WHAT HAVE YOU DONE YOU RUINED HER I'LL NEVER PAY YOUR GAME AGAIN." in the first pages to "yeah, she seems alright. Needs some tweaking but yeah. Alright. Nice work." In the last.

[robbybe01234]

I'm surprised by people that say they like her and say "nice work".  It isn't nice work.  Mag is now a frame with 1 ability that will actually contribute to removing enemies from play.  Her others (pull, polarize, crush) will use your energy pool and leave you exposed during casting animation just to have the enemies remain in play.  You still have to deal with them.  The trade off becomes, why not just spend time shooting them with your primary instead of those abilities?  That way, in that frame of time, they will be removed from play and you will be alive.  I really hope this point is at least acknowledged by the people that say she is good.  In a large majority of combat scenarios, she is just a low health vanilla frame that dashes around and shoots enemies from cover with her primary or secondary.  It almost feels like I'm playing the game as one of the prisoners we have to rescue. 

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

Right now, she can pull enemies out of the magnetize, which is really annoying. I thought pulling magnetized enemies to do extra damage was the intended combo, but it seems worthless now, because the CC of having all the enemies in the magnetize field is better. I hope this is patched, and enemies in the magnetize can't be pulled out.

Also, is it just me or is magnetize kinda better than vortex right now? I mean, you can't just cast it on a blank hallway, but cast in on the first enemy that walks through and it's relatively no different, but costs less, lasts longer and does more damage.

[Marine027]

26 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

I'm surprised by people that say they like her and say "nice work".  It isn't nice work.  Mag is now a frame with 1 ability that will actually contribute to removing enemies from play.  Her others (pull, polarize, crush) will use your energy pool and leave you exposed during casting animation just to have the enemies remain in play.  You still have to deal with them.  The trade off becomes, why not just spend time shooting them with your primary instead of those abilities?  That way, in that frame of time, they will be removed from play and you will be alive.  I really hope this point is at least acknowledged by the people that say she is good.  In a large majority of combat scenarios, she is just a low health vanilla frame that dashes around and shoots enemies from cover with her primary or secondary.  It almost feels like I'm playing the game as one of the prisoners we have to rescue. 

This is what they did with most of the Warframes rework, nerf the overused ability so people use the next more efficient thing so taht one will be the next "overused" one now, just with Mag it was like they wanted ot create a new Warframe, so it feels for me atleast but no ability rarely works in any later game mechanics, her supposed ultimate was and still is crap and needs the augment mod to be really usefull even, instead of having the agument just as extra option.

And i already mention in this thread that, yes she was OP but sitll only against Corpus and some rare Corrupted situations, but she she still was limited to do efficient damge and sitll only for Corpus and in high lvl she nuked those not anymore aswell, see Corpus Tech, high Health and low amount of shield, also the Nullifiers she couldn't get trough that aswell while they protected whole groups at times right?

Now she can't stand against any faction really wtih her powers, especially compared to other Frames now. I could really just, as robbybe01234 said, play a regualr Tenno without powers aswell now and whouldn't notice much difference now.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Marine027