Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Wolfnrun]

26 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

TL;DR:  there is no TL;DR.  I meant it.

I normally ignore large text's but after reading...I quite have to agree with you on many areas. Most notably shock and ES...My main request however, is that our feedback is truly being utilized to the fullest and at the very least, considered  

[Cytobel]

I've made my suggestions and requests reguarding this topic.  I'm now waiting for a response from DE.  I don't mind Dev feedback at all, but I'd be just as happy if it comes in the form of a working rework.

Today is Wednesday, and we should be seeing a reinforcement patch or similar soon, maybe.

For other players:  what do YOU want Volt to do?  How do you want him to play?

[Duduminador]

Wet dream Volt? A way to speed the F*** up of parkur to the point a roll or a slide would become a borderline Dragon Ball move (maybe the passive could do that instead of dealing any form of damage at all, it'd charge till the next parkur move is triggered and it could speed it up and increase the distance, AND actually stop after the move, instead of drifiting on the ground all the way to the next wall). That and unlimited Shields.
 

 

I have a feeling the shield limit is a lame way to prevent players from casting a clusterfuck of shields and zapping them all at once with shock, in which case a max count for SHOCKED shields would suffice, instead of limiting the number of active shields

Edited June 8, 2016 by Duduminador

[SylvenStar]

I wrote an absurd amount here, apologies, so I'm putting a lot under Spoiler tabs.

 

Allow me to give my feedback after extensive use with the volt.

 

Spoiler

This rework was a step in the right direction, since Volt is slightly less of a generic warframe with a damage power, a buff, a shield, and an AoE damage ult., but he seriously needs some kind of scaling damage. Discharge has enough damage over the duration so that on low levels it'll kill more than a few enemies (because enemies rarely cluster together in decent sized groups except on specific tiles, and because they die before any new enemies pass them by). However, once I hit level 30 territory, Discharge is nothing but CC. Even with boosted power strength, it just does nothing except to corpus, and even then, on bigger tiles they don't group together enough for it to be worth the energy cost. I just finished a sortie where with maximum strength, (blind rage, intensify, and so on) I still couldn't see damage. They were grouped in giant numbers, even, there were electric arcs everywhere (because boosted range too), so any given enemy was probably taking damage from at least four other "coils." I saw dozens of damage ticks everywhere... but they were ticks between 14 and 40. Okay, I understand that Sortie Grineer have ridiculous armor and health, but come on. An Ultimate Ability on Warframe's "Potent Alternative to Gunplay" warframe is just an AoE stun with little bits of damage? At that point, his only means of outputting damage at higher levels is by dropping a shield and shooting through it with a high crit chance weapon. Madness. I dealt more damage before the rework with Overload, even after I'd destroyed all the devices in a room. But now? It's just a rescue tool. The passive ability is... nice, but it seems to only apply to one enemy, for only the pulse damage. I may be mistaken, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this, but even on lower levels I don't notice a difference when I let loose a Discharge without having built up the passive, and when I build up all 1000 damage. In fact, I don't even see a big difference when I use Shock except on the first enemy, when I'm targeting an enemy and not a wall, and that's... noticeable. Not significant. I only ever see it be useful is when I use my primary weapon after having built a full charge, and it makes a decent difference then. In summary, Volt has lost all his damage potential (except when used with a medium range crit weapon with the shield) and now he's almost pure utility. And even that got nerfed because of the spawn limit on Electric Shields and the fact that Speed is a pickup.

Here are the new roles his abilities seem to be oriented for:

Shock: Short duration multi-stun

Speed: Melee buff, utility to build up passive faster

Shield: Huge defensive buff for a single location (riot shield form drained all of my energy within five seconds the few times I used it except when I built max efficiency) (shock interaction is also useless because you can't make minefields, or block a single hallway while defending yourself half decently)

Discharge: AOE Stun. That's it. wouldn't qualify as an ultimate were it not for base range and duration.

Passive: Teeny tiny buff to overall damage/motivation to abandon teammates for ten seconds so you can burst a heavy unit who will likely not care about the extra electric damage anyways.

DE, what the heck? You guys said that this rework was supposed to fix Volt's lack of damage potential, but now he's little more than a neat little tool belt. I went into a high level mission hoping I could do some decent damage with this "power" warframe, and what did I do? I sat behind everyone, occasionally poking things with my guns because I dropped my power efficiency for damage, when that damage never actually showed. Now, Volt's only option for high level is to go maximum duration and efficiency, but you can't afford to drop range otherwise his ult becomes uesless that way, too. He's good for only 2 things: AOE stun from his ult, and damage bonus from shields.

I've got suggestions for how this can be amended, without a total rework AGAIN, just so that Volt is viable.

Spoiler

.Passive: Massively increase the cap for damage, but cause the buildup to start up slow, and grow exponentially. Take away the application of the damage to weapons, have it only apply to powers and melee Heavy Attack. It's just so awkward running around a half dozen heavy units running around to build up a charge and plinking them with the damage boost.

Shock: I've NEVER enjoyed using this ability. Didn't use it before, still don't. This thing needs a couple of things, many options are open, but SOMETHING major needs to be done. Not all the options here, but something: 1) Power Duration affects stun duration. 2) Damage scales exponentially with number of targets affected. 3a) Power Range affects number of targets affected. 3b) Static Discharge level affects number of targets affected.

There are many other options I don't know off the top of my head.

My favorite modification to shock I've come up with though, is a miniature rework: 4) Reduce number of affected targets to 3, but grant each link

Speed: When Volt touches an ally (one touch per cast), open a prompt for a few seconds to accept speed boost. Get rid of the drop function. Enable recasting. Simple enough, 

Shield: Get rid of the limit on the number of shields, allow shields to stack like Frost's snowglobe up to 3 times (reduced energy cost for stacks) and eliminate the amplify damage with every shield passed through. (How was this not implemented?) Fix that energy cost with the riot shield, Brilliant Idea, useless because of how expensive it is, on top of the debuffs. Improve efficiency during Speed so that energy drops at the "same" rate.

Discharge: Moderate rework. Have Static Discharge affect Pulse damage, arc tick damage, and arc range. Reduce the visual thickness of the arcs so they don't blind people, or have them travel along the walls. Enable executions on affected enemies.

Discharge Air Cast: Give him a new ability with the air cast, or get rid of the "No air cast." He's vulnerable enough with the cast time and having to sit still. Personal preference? Drop a decent sized AoE  electirc field at the target location. ALL enemies within the field  become tesla coils with longer range arcs, but are not stunned, and enemies within the field take constant electric damage.

 

 

Now, here's MY idea of a second rework for a really fun, gimmicky Volt:

Spoiler

 

Passive: No rework, Same as my earlier suggestion. Slow start, but exponential growth.

Shock: In the chain its own set of chains. Thus a group of 7 enemies in a circle formation 1 in the middle, front target chains to the two on either side and the middle. Middle chains to the remaining three. Enemies can only be damaged once during stun duration and can only release one set of chains, but stun duration is refreshed each time they are hit with a chain (chains prioritize unaffected enemies within range)

Speed Slipstream: A Toggle speed buff that, has volt build up a movement charge as he constantly moves. When at maximum speed (Sprinting with maximum Slipstream Charge) Disable attacks and other powers (Aside from toggling Slipstream and his passive) meaning he can't cancel out of sprint via attack, and disable attacks for 1 or two seconds after stopping or toggle-off. During Maximum Slipstream, so long as he keeps moving at least as fast as ground sprinting permits, he is granted invisibility, and leaves behind a trail that grants speed to allies.

Electric Shield: No Rework, same as earlier suggestion.

Discharge Thunder Dome: Spawn a dome (Comparable in size to Nova's Molecular prime at the end of its duration) (Air Cast enabled) that causes ALL units, friendly and enemy, to become Charged, releasing occasional arcs of electricity towards enemy units that last for a few seconds, and stun for slightly longer. The Dome border also releases arcs of its own. Static Discharge affects frequency of arcs, and while Volt is within the dome, the movement of all Charged units contribute to Static Discharge.

 

Suggestions and criticism welcomed, so long as it's actual criticism and not a statement of how dumb you think it is. :P

Edited June 8, 2016 by SylvenStar

[Aquasurge]

me?

i'd say absolute godlike bad-assery  with lightning, storms and way too many tasers for one's comfort 

[Cytobel]

Weird thought:  what if Electric Shield ALWAYS proc'd on foes that touched it?  That'd give us what we need for the crowd control DE expects us to want to spend another 25 energy Shocking into it.

Another odd idea that goes with the one above: what if Shock, instead of just charging the ES, made it Overload?  Not to the scale of an ult, but a ~5m pulse (definitely affected by range mods) that inflicts knockdown, electric proc, and maybe double Shock's damage?  Maybe even give it chain reaction with the other ES' nearby...  dunno.

For the record I'm not a fan of limiting the casts of Electric Shield.  This might give is a way to wipe them and increase damage in the area.  Definitely should NOT work on Riot Shield though, lol.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 hours ago, Cytobel said:

I've made my suggestions and requests reguarding this topic.  I'm now waiting for a response from DE.  I don't mind Dev feedback at all, but I'd be just as happy if it comes in the form of a working rework.

Today is Wednesday, and we should be seeing a reinforcement patch or similar soon, maybe.

For other players:  what do YOU want Volt to do?  How do you want him to play?

Philosophically, I'm seeing Volt Break down into 2 playstyles and here is what needs to happen to his kit to make them viable IMHO.

1.  Power Volt (fast-moving, high damage, with melee)

-Volt's split CC/damage 4 needs to be "mod"able for damage here.  

-Riot shield needs to be a perk and not energy-crippling and thus unusable, and stop with the secondary-only restriction.

-Lose speed's one second delay and make it parkour/melee friendly.

2.  Duration Volt (lock-down, area-defense, ranged assault)

-Volt's split CC/Damage 4 needs to be heavily "mod"able for CC duration.

-the 4 shield cap is crippling.  Maybe an extra shield for every 25% over 100% duration? (5 @ 125%, 6 @ 150%, etc.)

-duration needs to affect Shock's stun PROC.

Duration affecting stun time on his powers invites the question:

 "Would negative duration shorten stun times and max number of shields?"

I'd say yes.  You can build Elite-damage and speed Volt but it will cost you in stun and Max shields used if duration is affected.

Edited June 8, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Wolfnrun]

9 hours ago, Cytobel said:

what do YOU want Volt to do?  How do you want him to play?

I want every ability to be offensive in some way and combining abilities makes it even stronger, I want every ability to be strong on it's own and for more effectiveness if and when combined.  I want to be a storm, I dream of lighting everywhere and a storm like no other. I see me putting excalibur to shame whenever he appears on prime time and lotus to credit me more than him. I want to be another heavily offensive frame like Chroma,rhino and ember. I am volt, I will not let the corpus limit my powers any longer! I will out run them all putting everyone who thinks otherwise to shame! I am the storm! no one will pass! I AM AN ALTERNATIVE TO GUNPLAY!  I DON'T NEED GUNS! 

[Brasten]

1 hour ago, Wolfnrun said:

 I AM AN ALTERNATIVE TO GUNPLAY!  I DON'T NEED GUNS! 

I have never been an Alternative to Gunplay. My Powers since 2012 have come in two forms. Offensive (Shock and Overload), and Utility (Speed - Melee, Shield - Guns).

I have TACTICALLY used both my Powers and my Weapons (melee and guns) from the start. Over the years I have adapted to the changing battlefield (been adjusted and nerfed by the developers), embracing greater Utility over the blaze of unleashed electrons (Stun proc on shock, damage nerfs to Overload). Always with my Weapons (melee and guns) in hand.

I am Volt. I am the Tactical Shock Trooper. I bring war swiftly, and with every tool in my arsenal.

===

Seriously, if you want a pure power damage offense frame it would be better to petition DE to make a whole new Electricity themed Warframe. That way it can be built from the ground up to have powers that are unified to the purpose.

Please stop trying to bend Volt into something it hasn't really been in nearly three and a half years. Volt was never an alternative to Gunplay. Even at the height of his Power Damage.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Brasten

[(PSN)Foxboy1993]

Honestly, aside from hitting the damage cap of discharge resulting in enemies no longer being stunned getting fixed somehow; the biggest change discharge needs is to have the pulse created on cast to be affected by DURATION just like Nova's molecular prime and mag's polarise. There is practically NO downside to it and would benefit speed users AND shield users!

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

i love him like he is now. just needs more polish imo... and a new description. :P

tbqh i don't see why people who want him to be played entirely different even bother anymore. i couldn't be arsed to post in every valkyr thread how imo she should be about aggressive and active gameplay like a real berserker class instead of godmode-ambulance... or excal a real melee frame... or loki actually for advanced players (like flol, he's the total newbie crutch frame really)... etc etc.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[RealPandemonium]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)Foxboy1993 said:

Honestly, aside from hitting the damage cap of discharge resulting in enemies no longer being stunned getting fixed somehow; the biggest change discharge needs is to have the pulse created on cast to be affected by DURATION just like Nova's molecular prime and mag's polarise. There is practically NO downside to it and would benefit speed users AND shield users!

In other words, you want Range as a dump stat?  Having trade-offs and consequences in modding is the entire point of the system.

Edited June 8, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)Foxboy1993]

Just now, RealPandemonium said:

In other words, you want Range as a dump stat?  Having trade-offs and consequences when modding is the entire point of the system.

Various other frames have dump stats as well, Loki comes to mind with power strength.

 

Range could STILL be a factor and determine the distance between enemies hit by the initial pulse and nearby enemies getting zapped by the tesla's enemies. Which in turn would affect capacitance's range too!

[RealPandemonium]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Foxboy1993 said:

Various other frames have dump stats as well, Loki comes to mind with power strength.

Dump stats are being removed little by little.  Loki will have his turn before long.  

[Wolfnrun]

2 hours ago, Brasten said:

Please stop trying to bend Volt into something it hasn't really been in nearly three and a half years. Volt was never an alternative to Gunplay. Even at the height of his Power Damage.

I am simply replying as to how I would like the rework to be... nothing more nothing less 

[SylvenStar]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

i love him like he is now. just needs more polish imo... and a new description. :P

tbqh i don't see why people who want him to be played entirely different even bother anymore. i couldn't be arsed to post in every valkyr thread how imo she should be about aggressive and active gameplay like a real berserker class instead of godmode-ambulance... or excal a real melee frame... or loki actually for advanced players (like flol, he's the total newbie crutch frame really)... etc etc.

The reason people ask for Volt to be played differently is because he isn't that powerful, let alone unique, especially without the Capacitance augment. His description is "A potent alternative to gun play," yet the only way he dishes out decent amounts of damage is via shooting guns through his shield. Otherwise, all he can do is stun-lock (requiring vastly more energy than he has available) and speed boost. The problem isn't that people want Volt to be something he's not, the problem is Volt isn't anything special.

Really, all that needs to be done is that his damage numbers need to be changed. As he is right now, he's usable, but almost totally unhelpful beyond level 25. And on lower levels, he's hardly even fun anyways. 

Think about it: He's very functionally similar to frost except he trades off a huge chunk of defensive capability and most damage in exchange for movement speed.

[RealPandemonium]

10 minutes ago, SylvenStar said:

The reason people ask for Volt to be played differently is because he isn't that powerful, let alone unique, especially without the Capacitance augment. His description is "A potent alternative to gun play," yet the only way he dishes out decent amounts of damage is via shooting guns through his shield. Otherwise, all he can do is stun-lock (requiring vastly more energy than he has available) and speed boost. The problem isn't that people want Volt to be something he's not, the problem is Volt isn't anything special.

Really, all that needs to be done is that his damage numbers need to be changed. As he is right now, he's usable, but almost totally unhelpful beyond level 25. And on lower levels, he's hardly even fun anyways. 

Think about it: He's very functionally similar to frost except he trades off a huge chunk of defensive capability and most damage in exchange for movement speed.

If you think of Volt in terms of gimmicks then yes perhaps his powers don't play the game for you so you may undervalue what he provides.  

They should change his description to "a potent complement to gunplay" since that's what he is; both melee and gunplay are bolstered immensely by his kit, he goes fast like sanic, and he has on-demand stuns that can situationally deal high damage to unarmored targets.  

I do miss Overload, (they should have fixed it instead of scrapping;) Discharge's wonky mechanics and exploitability against Grineer leave a bad taste in my mouth.  

Edited June 8, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[SylvenStar]

11 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

If you think of Volt in terms of gimmicks then yes perhaps his powers don't play the game for you so you may undervalue what he provides.  

They should change his description to "a potent complement to gunplay" since that's what he is; both melee and gunplay are bolstered immensely by his kit, he goes fast like sanic, and he has on-demand stuns that can situationally deal high damage to unarmored targets.  

I do miss Overload, (they should have fixed it instead of scrapping;) Discharge's wonky mechanics and exploitability against Grineer leave a bad taste in my mouth.  

I don't undervalue what he can bring to the game, I'm aware of the things he brings to the table, the problem is he isn't UNIQUE. Speed is essentially war cry except he sacrifices armor and duration for movement speed, and his other abilities are tweaked versions of Frost.

shock: sort of a cross between freeze and ice wave, except you can target other points, and the stun doesn't last nearly as long.

Electric Shield: I'm shielding one direction, enhancing damage in lieu of omnidirectional defense, duration, and a massive slow.

Discharge: Longer stun and more range in exchange for no armor reduction.

I'm not asking for Volt specifically to go towards power damage, I was simply suggesting tweaked numbers because it's clearly what he's trying to be. I'm asking for something unique, rather than this awkward middle ground between Frost and Valkyr that lost all of its defense.

[SylvenStar]

In all honesty, a possibility is to keep Volt almost exactly the way he is, but have his passive Static Discharge have more interactivity with his powers and enhance them more. He needs options like that.

[RealPandemonium]

5 minutes ago, SylvenStar said:

I don't undervalue what he can bring to the game, I'm aware of the things he brings to the table, the problem is he isn't UNIQUE. Speed is essentially war cry except he sacrifices armor and duration for movement speed, and his other abilities are tweaked versions of Frost.

shock: sort of a cross between freeze and ice wave, except you can target other points, and the stun doesn't last nearly as long.

Electric Shield: I'm shielding one direction, enhancing damage in lieu of omnidirectional defense, duration, and a massive slow.

Discharge: Longer stun and more range in exchange for no armor reduction.

I'm not asking for Volt specifically to go towards power damage, I was simply suggesting tweaked numbers because it's clearly what he's trying to be. I'm asking for something unique, rather than this awkward middle ground between Frost and Valkyr that lost all of its defense.

Shock does not need to directly hit a target, travels much faster than Freeze, and hits multiple targets (potentially far away from each other.)

Snow Globe does not block AOE, can be killed, does not increase gun damage, and is still rather cheesy despite these setbacks.  These powers are only superficially similar IMO and people go out of their way to make this comparison when it is really not relevant and far from essential.

Avalanche is a cheesy duration-based CC that also has an armor bandaid built in; Discharge's CC is based on damage dealt (duration only matters when enemies have damage reduction, which is counter-intuitive and exploitable) and its damage is much higher than Avalanche's despite its cap.  

People often insist on specialization when it comes to frame design but that is often a thinly-veiled request for more exploitability.  Frames are valuable in providing a distinct experience and not because they fit into the meta.  A "jack of all trades" or "generalist" design can be just as valuable as a hyper-speciallized or gimmicky one.  

[Brasten]

16 minutes ago, SylvenStar said:

In all honesty, a possibility is to keep Volt almost exactly the way he is, but have his passive Static Discharge have more interactivity with his powers and enhance them more. He needs options like that.

Which is why us serious Volt players are calling for polish, not another rework to take him in a direction he's never gone.

There are also major use differences between Globe and Shield. And not just about the direction of defense. Even with a very large range Snow Globe and the Slow, Frost can get into trouble trying to use Globe against Infested Defense. The Globe actively blocks the line of fire, forcing teammates to dive inside the bubble when it gets packed with Infested

If you're going to complain about replicated and overlapping power sets that do CC, you may as well compare Volt and Frost to Nova. Where Molecular Prime has way more range and a much stronger slow. Plus damage enhancement, all in one power. Or Mirage's Prism even after LoS change. Or Nezha's Divine Spears, which allow for ground finishers. How about Rhino's Stomp.

The problem with Discharge isn't that it is another ultimate with CC component, its a problem hat is inconstant in that CC when compared to every other Warframe that has had a major rework done, or is of more modern design.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Brasten

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

53 minutes ago, SylvenStar said:

The reason people ask for Volt to be played differently is because he isn't that powerful, let alone unique, especially without the Capacitance augment. His description is "A potent alternative to gun play," yet the only way he dishes out decent amounts of damage is via shooting guns through his shield. Otherwise, all he can do is stun-lock (requiring vastly more energy than he has available) and speed boost. The problem isn't that people want Volt to be something he's not, the problem is Volt isn't anything special.

Really, all that needs to be done is that his damage numbers need to be changed. As he is right now, he's usable, but almost totally unhelpful beyond level 25. And on lower levels, he's hardly even fun anyways. 

Think about it: He's very functionally similar to frost except he trades off a huge chunk of defensive capability and most damage in exchange for movement speed.

you know what, you're right: volt is nothing special, no "specialist" frame. AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT'S SPECIAL ABOUT HIM :D. he is not a one skill pony. he is the jack of all trades, just rock solid all around, the perfect starter imo. just about any frame has one build that's quasi-mandatory for effectiveness, while volt can be built around gunplay, melee, even tankiness etc etc...

anyway i've played and still play any content you can think of in this game with him and he's more than "enough". for what it's worth i think i may consider myself quite the "veteran" by now, mr21 on the brink to 22, 2000+ hours of playtime, volt+volt prime together around 35~40% usage. he is good, the fact that other frames may be even lamer doesn't change that fact imo.

anyway, feel free to discuss possibilities/suggestions of course, i just have the feeling DE have made up their mind about him, too, judging by this "rework" (which was more of a touch up really).

[Archwizard]

On 6/5/2016 at 1:54 PM, Archwizard said:

Personally I find the damage of Discharge to be pretty potent, with a very important condition: The effect relies on arc and burst damage similarly to Molecular Prime, so each individual enemy isn't going to take a lot of damage, but a group of enemies stuck together will. This really isn't much of a downgrade compared to Overload's conditional damage, and at worst it evens out the vast damage spread between Overload with electronics and without.

I'm personally not sure what the main complaints about the ability are beyond "damage" - again, it's an upgrade if you compare to Overload without electronics, and you still have a large amount of CC with the effect - although I admit I may be out of touch because some of the conditions of the ability still seem pretty ambiguous to me. For instance, the damage delay for a single target seems to serve no purpose, and literally everything regarding the effect's damage cap brings questions of what qualifies towards that cap (All damage, or just damage from the ability? Does this include arc damage from other enemies affected by Discharge? Does this include the blast damage from Shock? Does the cap only activate if the target isn't arcing?). As it is an extra ability cost, Shock should always be able to bypass the cap, if it doesn't already.

Okay so, finally been getting some clarifications on how Discharge works. According to Reddit:

Quote

The ability is fairly straight forward for the most part. The cap is reached from the arcing to other enemies. All resistances are taken into account and the number started in the stat screen is the dmg you do before all other factors are considered. Not much else to say about it upfront.

Seems to me that an easy fix for the ability would follow thusly:

• A single instance of Discharge now deals damage to the affected target after 4 seconds, regardless of whether other enemies were within range to arc damage to beforehand. Only this damage contributes to the damage cap; arc damage and burst damage caused by Shock do not.
• The damage cap is no longer reduced by the target's mitigation.

This will prevent the ability from burning out its effects instantly, while also providing scalability in its damage (affected by number of enemies) and CC (affected by enemy scaling), without necessarily removing the cap and giving players the ability to stun enemies for 30 seconds per cast.

Everybody wins.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Archwizard

[Cara360]

...even though DE increase volt limit to 6, I still see no reasons to limit it. Yes people I'm still salty about this and always will.

[Hypernaut1]

4 minutes ago, Cara360 said:

...even though DE increase volt limit to 6, I still see no reasons to limit it. Yes people I'm still salty about this and always will.

I don't think I've ever really used more than 6 unless I was at extraction and just messing around