Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

On 10/9/2016 at 0:25 PM, Insizer said:

It's interesting, I'm almost the opposite of you. I love CC and hate damage abilities (I'm more of a support guy so yeah), AOEs are fine with me so long as they are not excessive, and while I dislike power denial, I'm not totally against it. That said, I can see where you are coming from your points, and some of them have made me think about things. Indeed, extremely effective CC can trivialize the game, and thinking about it, they are a huge reason why nullies exist. Perhaps only one or two frames should be able to lock down a room for an extended period of time...

I play a flexible playstyle with Volt and love it. I am normally very active, using Shock very liberally to find enemies around corners and to stun them, and using Speed fairly often. But when S#&$ hits the fan or if I need to defend, then I will go into a defense mode, cast E.Shield once or twice. And because of Riot shield I can move around a little, outside of my barrier which my allies are using. I find this fun, because able to dynamically adapt I like Volt having a decent tool for every occasion, that's why I'm more ok with Volt being able to lock down a room. I'm not totally against what you want. Longer Speed, moddable Discharge stun duration, and innate energy regen would all be plusses for my playstyle. I was just unsure the need for some of them, because of the, admittably shortsighted, reason: "I've never had an issue in that department". 

I hold a somewhat different view of your defense anecdote. For one, I think that squishy Volt being able to survive behind E.shield is a testament to his utility and support capability. But I do see where you are coming from, if you were so inclinded to use so many energy pads, then yes Discharge's stun could certainly trivialize things. Perhaps, enemies that were already Discharge'd should have some resistance to following ones.

But the reason why camping is Volt's end-game is because he doesn't have the innate defenses to support very aggressive end-game gameplay, the same goes for most other frames. Volt just has the capability to make his own defenses. The rework did little to deal with Volt's squishiness. Riot Shield would have been great for that, if not for the ridiculous double drain. A drain that was supposed to balance out the fact that he has an invicible shield in front of him while moving. 

It's funny, I was so focued on trying to prevent people wanting to ruin Volt (scrapping his utility to turn him into a glasscannon and such), that I was grateful that his rework didn't change much and failed to see issues he had. I've also developed a chip on my shoulder when it comes to "rework the rework" ideas for similar reasons. The more I look at Volt now the more I'm seeing issues he does have.

I'm also sorry for how my initial post was. It is a terrible habit, but I like to argue and tend to react somewhat harshly at first and then spend too much time backpeddling to my actual position.

Its cool.

Question: why lock down a map? What is the point? Where is the fun?

All warframe has is its enemies, take them away, and youd just be walking around empty maps. I get sick watching videos of people cast inaros sand ability, and repetively do the same finishers over and over, but at least its not aoe. And i love banshee, it feels so epic using her and playing dubstep, but when you are playing with the banshee and you see enemies doing the akward back step dance....its just silly.

I revised it, not much new, just cleaner

Edited October 11, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[EnderDDT]

The point was made that the reception to the Volt updates were "generally positive" and someone else said that it is only the same few people who are having any problem with things but the majority liked it. This is not how I, and a number of other people have viewed the reception. The question is, which assessments correct? We all know that when a person really becomes invested in believing something there is the tendency to view everything within that context, to them the proof is glowing but the detractors are unconvincing; there is even a term of it, "Confirmation Bias". The problem is, though, that it is hard to tell if that bias is on the part of those who believe one thing or the other.

So, in order to answer that question, I proposed a scientific test.

Using the Volt update MEGATHREAD I looked at who replied and the general nature of their posts. The replies were put into 4 categories.
1. Comments that gave no indication if the changes were good or bad, also including the "yay, a DE rep said something" posts and off topic.
2. Comments that said everything was good and that nothing really needed changed.
3. Comments that mentioned "wouldn't it be cool if" scenarios of proposed changes, those who specifically said that the issues were small (but important), and those that mentioned no more than 1 thing that needed fixed. These were often positive but still mentioned the need for fixes. No matter how big an issue they believed the thing was, if they only had one issue they ended up in this category, therfore the fact that people were in this category should not be taken to absolutely show a lack of belief in the importance of the issues, rather it shows more clearly the sharp contrast of how many problems people had to be included in category 4.
4. Comments that mentioned multiple major issues that needed to be fixed.

Here is a link to that thread:

Each individual was only counted once, therefore vocal members who spoke up dozens of times had no more say in this metric than those who posted only once. I started just after the end of page 36 where [DE]rebecca posted the gfycat of the updated Riot Shield modification (ie: the shield bash). This was about when the last set of changes were made to Volt including the speed pickup change. This was chosen to ensure that posts would be most likely not focusing on issues that had been fixed. In the case that a person's opinion changed or where a more extreme opinion was put forth the name was recorded in the last category of definite nature where they stood. This caused people to gravitate toward either category 2 or 4, since these were the categories where people with strong opinions ended up. Also, if a person's opinion was a delayed "yay for the speed pickup" then I put them in category 3 (or 4 if they had other more major issues) and the "boo for speed pickup" people were put in category 2 to reflect what they wanted to have happen. Similarly I tried to always categorize people's replies according to the spirit of what they said as much as possible.

The final test was simple. Count up the number of category 2 and 4 people (or category 2 vs category 3 and 4) and compare to determine if the general consensus was positive or negative.

The results:

As of page 49, the infamous "Volt's changes have been generally well recieved" post, the numbers were 1:10, 2:10, 3:8, 4:20. This means that literally 2/3 of people believe that major changes are needed and about 3/4 of those who voiced any opinion at all about if the changes were good or bad believed that there was still work that could be done.

As of page 67, where I linked to this post and at the time of writing this, the numbers are 1:13, 2:16, 3:16, 4:30. Within the realm of statistical significance, the ratios have not changed. There are still about 2/3 of people believe that major changes are needed and about 3/4 of people believe that there is still work that would be good to have done.

I therefore believe the evidence shows that the majority of people DO NOT believe that the rework is in a good place and the strong majority do believe that work still needs done.

PS: Further examination might be well given to how passionate people are about their opinions on this matter, as those who want fixes have shown a strong dedication to their cause despite much to discourage their goal. This relates directly to the benefits of dealing with the issue and  Another issue that I did not examine but might be good to check is the comparative levels of experience between those who held the #2 vs the #4 opinions. While I did not examine this scientifically I did get the impression that many "Novice" players were raving about how powerful Volt was and quite a few "Disciple" players were talking about fixes. Again, without statistical analysis it is difficult to say if these perceptions are accurate or not.

It should also be noted that feedback threads for fixes to the Volt changes have continued consistently often with many replies and much support. This can well be taken as proof that this studies findings are supported by external data.

[EnderDDT]

Just thought I would leave this here for anyone interested.

[EnderDDT]

Raw data of the names taken from the people who replied to the other thread. Given so that nobody thinks I'm making up the raw data.

Spoiler

1. Yay, something is being done or other random comments. No word on "good" or "bad".
Brasten
Cara360
D20
EVILFLUFFMONSTER
FierceRadiance
ShiroPhyla
Soridian
StarDustKillah
SteelBlade17x
Valkyrion
Windmileyno
YagoXiten
ZeRo MeRcY

2. Good, things are all good and nothing really needs changed.
BlackCoMerc
Brasten
Cooper_m22
-CM-Emptiness
DeadScream
Grumpy
Insizer
KaeseSchnitte
Kristophy
Mazauk
Rudman88
RyanGo
Satinpuppies
TenGaugeBoson
TheSketchDevice
True_Gamer_81

3. Only minor things brought up and/or no more than one bad thing, or random ideas for changes
Chantepleur
Cryone
FitzSimmons
_hello21_
HelXlagon
Hypernaut1
Kainosh
Kenken13
Kotsender_Quasimir
LegionCynex
LunarEdge7
NightmareT12
shoopypit
TheLocalHentai
ThymeL0rd
voltocitygel

4. There are major problems that keep the good from shining, things that need fixing.
Adder9
Aquasurge
Ayaahuasca
Azmagon
Brasten
Burnthesteak87
Cytobel
Dan1lo
----Dante----
Dizzle22
Duduminador
Electronx_Core
EnderDDT
HELLHOUND_ROCKO
herflik
iDEBz
Ikusias
LabMan95
Ograzzt
Ohmlink
OzoneSlayer
RealPandemonium
Sidathre
Silverback73
SquidTheSid
SylvenStar
Toramaru
Wolfrun
zaxiade
ZeroLiger

 

[bluepheonix13]

I think you also need to take the fact into account, that a Volt User that is happy with the changes is less inclined to post something in feedback than an angry Volt user, who desperately needs some change to enjoy Volt. There is always gonna be more negative feedback than positive.

[_Vortus_]

Heh, an old topic.   Love Volt just like it is.   I don't think of it as a jack of all trades, ace of none.   I think of it as a jack of all trades ace of a few.   Not that I would mind some buffs, but its pretty damn good right now.

1- Decent power for stunning.    My main use is powering the shields though.

2- Speed, shouldn't have to explain this one

3- Shields are great, invulnerable, set as needed, long duration, cover large area's, can use as a riot shield, increases dmg, can stack

4- Among the best CC in the game.   Locks down entire small maps letting you kill them easy.   Single target damage is negligible, but it puts a hurt on mobs. 

[Cyphrus]

I love how the first post is negative instead of thanking and actually admiring that this person took their time to go through the process of compiling all the information in the Volt feedback thread and then using the data to come to an accurate and factual conclusion. Data never lies. "Numbers do not lie, words, poems, these are all lies. Numbers are as close as we get to the handwriting of God." -Pacific Rim. 

@OP Thank you for taking your time to present this data to us. I would disagree with bluephoenix, if it was true that there would always be more negative feedback then positive then 4-5 star ratings would not exist on product, stores, and hotels of the world. The simple fact is there is more attention that Volt deserves and needs for his "rework" to even be considered one at all. All DE did was change his shield to a pickup his ult to a more terrible form than it was, and gave him a passive that gets useless fast. 

 

Volt deserves a better rework so say the data. 

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, Cyphrus said:

I love how the first post is negative instead of thanking and actually admiring that this person took their time to go through the process of compiling all the information in the Volt feedback thread

Why should I thank OP? I never asked them to waste their time presenting this information to me. Let alone the fact that community forums make up a tiny, tiny fraction of player bases in any online game.

Beyond that, the post wasn't even negative. It was literally just saying, "hey but don't forget about this."

[Chipputer]

3 hours ago, EnderDDT said:

Using the Volt update MEGATHREAD

There are far more avenues to provide feedback to DE than just that one topic. I think you need to take into account Tweets, Reddit posts, and the numerous self-contained topics posted before coming to a conclusion and presenting it as a hard fact.

[motorfirebox]

1 hour ago, Cyphrus said:

I love how the first post is negative instead of thanking and actually admiring that this person took their time to go through the process of compiling all the information in the Volt feedback thread and then using the data to come to an accurate and factual conclusion. Data never lies.

Data don't lie, but people are wrong about data all the time. For instance, as impressive as it is that someone took the time to comb through a megathread, all those data reveal are the opinions of the people who posted in the megathread at the time that they posted. There are huge, huge, huge problems with trying to extrapolate the current opinion of the overall playerbase from those data.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Im the most unhappy:(

Im only in that first group because i commented before the rework hit consoles like an idiot. 

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Bump....

[shut]

2 hours ago, Cyphrus said:

Data never lies. "Numbers do not lie, words, poems, these are all lies. Numbers are as close as we get to the handwriting of God." -Pacific Rim.

Of course data never lies, but that doesn't mean that data can't be misleading.
Bluephoenix13 is right; happy players are less likely to post in feedback threads, and this is absolutely worth noting.

 

Even if we go ahead and assume that the forum-browsing portion of a video game community is representative of the game's community as a whole (read: It isn't), remember that video game feedback is very fundamentally different from eBay feedback and hotel reviews and such. This is both due to the demographic of people who use the product (the community of space ninjas-- while vast and diverse-- is far, far more "niche" than the group of people who have been to a hotel at least once in their life), and due to the fact that there is no social obligation to post feedback in video games.

The end result is that the people who want to see substantial improvements to the game, or those who are bitterly disappointed with the game and want to vent, are more likely to post in a feedback thread. The ones who are satisfied with their product are far more likely to simply play the game.

 

EDIT:
That all being said, though, I totally agree with EnderDDT that Volt's rework needs substantial improvements. Small wall of text incoming.

 

1. Shock...
is as unreliable as it was before the update. If the enemy is doing any sort of remotely "special" animation, then the stun will have no effect. It won't stun enemies cowering behind cover, it won't stun enemies using Ramparts-- hell, it won't even prevent enemies from setting off alarms or stealing Interception towers.
I vaguely remember when Rebecca first showcased Volt's rework on the devstream. The first attack against an enemy in the mission was a Shock to a Bombard's back... and rather than being stunned, it basically just spun around and promptly shoved a rocket up her nose. None of the devs seemed to have any sort of reaction to this; it was basically just "welp, just bombards being bombards i guess" and nothing more.
How this was not addressed, I've got no bloody clue.
 

2. Speed
is great and I love it.
 

3. Electric shield...
is much better than pre-rework (even with the cap on active shields), but... the Riot Shield mode simply has far, far too many downsides. This is my biggest gripe for the entire update.

- restricts to pistol (makes sense)
- shrinks size (makes sense)
- slows you down (kinda conflicts with Volt's theme, but okay, we'll see where it goes)
- has drain per second (okay, I can live with that)
- has drain per distance (wait, what)
- does not pause the shield's timer (oh god please stop)
- does not switch back to previously-used weapon after deactivation (OH GOD MAKE IT END)

Granted, that last one's an oversight-- but seriously? Slowdown (despite his theme), two different kinds of energy drain (despite the initial 50 energy cost), and still operates on a timer (despite the two different kinds of energy drain)?
It's as if a "possible downsides" list were created, and the people in charge of coding misinterpreted it and accidentally implemented all of them. Just give it one or two of those downsides. It does not need all of them.


4. Overload...
also suffers from the whole "too many downsides" thing, to a lesser (yet somehow more noticeable) extent. I get the ground-casting bit due to technical limitations, but the damage cap is completely unnecessary when the stun already runs on a Duration.
On Grineer, Overload is fantastic since the "damage cap" pretty much doesn't exist. But on Corpus (who Volt is thematically supposed to be strong against), Overload ends up having little to no CC value because unarmored enemies shake off the stun almost immediately.
The ability would be nearly perfect if the damage cap were simply removed. No other CC ability has such a cap, so why should Overload?

Edited October 12, 2016 by SortaRandom

[Cytobel]

I'm not going to rehash my complaints here too, but I think it is worth noting that a fair few of the folks I spoke to who were really happy with the rework were also notable low on the MR scale.  This tells me that those who ARE happy and who aren't new to the game seem to have weighed in far less than they probably should've.

My opinion of the rewark is that it wasted time (new ES graphic aside, because it's @(*()$ awesome to be able to see things through it), but I'm happy to see some attention directed to a 'Frame that is a chronic underperformer.  It tells me DE is at least somewhat aware of the play figures.  On the other hand I worry that DE spent FAR too much time listening to the happy little BS blurbs (which are to feedback what a pebble is to a hill).

This tells me that people who actually put real time into the game are unlikely to be considered (at all) when it comes time to make changes, should they not be in the current popular majority.  This is a good way to alienate the loyal playerbase who support Warframe, and a fast way to justify poor choices that sound half decent.  Quick fixes have led to a number of design problems that have haunted the game for years (free multishot, I'm looking at you*).

Sometimes it pays to assume the veteran players know what they're talking about, at least a little bit.

(*Not unfondly, but I'm still looking...)

@Chipputer:  Your logic has a problem with it.  If many people who post in a rework thread are mentioning problems or issues with the rework, and if there are happy players who simply don't reply to the thread (both true), and ALSO if feedback is being taken from other sources, then the feedback thread is a lie.

Essentially, there is no point to posting anything in the rework thread unless you're also repeating the post on every social media page Warframe has.  This penalizes people who don't feel like spam-bombing a game everytime there is a glitch or bad interaction, and it isolates players who actually care enough to try to leave real feedback on the supposed thread created just for that purpose.  Moreover, it justifies people (players and Devs) in ignoring the feedback threads.  This is a self-reinforcing negative cycle.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Cytobel

[EnderDDT]

16 hours ago, bluepheonix13 said:

I think you also need to take the fact into account, that a Volt User that is happy with the changes is less inclined to post something in feedback than an angry Volt user, who desperately needs some change to enjoy Volt. There is always gonna be more negative feedback than positive.

Despite this, that does not change the "reception" of it. The way that people recieved and made their voice heard was all we can measure because there will always be those who remain silent on both sides of the issue. You have to use SOMETHING to make a worthwhile metric and there is no reason to believe that the ratios of individuals on either side vary too wildly from the community as a whole (at least that part of the community that actually cares about the subject at hand). The fact that the ratios remained stable over time seems to support this.

Consider the fact that there are plenty of people who also did not say anything because they did not expect that their complaints would be heard and treated as relevant; this is not a problem that people who wanted to congradulate DE's designers on a job well done would have.

Furthermore there was more than one person who's voiced opinions were very likely that of trolls, wanting to rile up those passionate about their cause. Those people were counted the same as anyone else but always ended up on the side of people mocking those asking for more work to be done (easier to troll that way).

All this to say, you can ALWAYS make the argument that ANY side is under-represented or that their opponents are over-represented. I gave two examples right above and can easily give more (people congratulating the ideas before experiencing the reality of the changes, etc.) for both sides (People who thought the original changes were good or good enough had no reason to repost while those with continuing issues did). The question that needs to be asked is, if this isn't an acceptable metric than what would be better? This is the most official place to give the most official feedback on work that has been done that there is (to my knowledge), so why not here! Short of random surveys of individual players, which I'm fairly certain that DE doesn't currently do, the data we have here is the most official recounting of community opinion that there is anywhere. If you have a better way to obtain complete information with the resources available to a normal person like me, I would like to hear it.

If you want another metric, I'll give you one. Look at the feedback forums as see how many posts there are about the different warframes. I don't even need to count to know that Volt is in the top 10 and almost certainly in the top 5 (even despite the hype about the Ash rework). There are even times when Volt outdoes Zephyr. Zephyr, for goodness sakes!!! The one warframe who's #4 ability is likely worse than Volt's, regardless of the circumstances, from time to time gets less feedback than Volt does. The one warframe who's mechanics are so outdated that one of their abilities is almost the same as something that any warframe with a mele weapon can do, the warframe who's gimic of "flight" is now eclipsed by a warframe with actual flight, the warframe who's one good ability randomly shorts out due to tunneling issues and non-updating bounce mechanics, the warframe who's passive even causes problems with speedy movement despite this being a game that builds so much of its popularity on speed; this other warframe, from time to time, gets less feedback than Volt does!!! I have no misgivings on which warframe is in the worst place in the game: Zephyr, easily. Yet the fact that so much of the community is concerned about making Volt better, at times even more than Zephyr who is in a much worse position, is a bit telling.

[herflik]

18 hours ago, bluepheonix13 said:

I think you also need to take the fact into account, that a Volt User that is happy with the changes is less inclined to post something in feedback than an angry Volt user, who desperately needs some change to enjoy Volt. There is always gonna be more negative feedback than positive.

That is true statistical fact, people that are fine with stuff dont tend to post on the forum.

But I wouldnt take it into account just as almost nobody here take into account people that are not playing the game at all. Those are also potential clients that could come here if you changed things.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Can i leave my thread too?

While it wasnt very popular, i really wanted to know what people thought

[Cyphrus]

On 10/11/2016 at 6:13 PM, Chipputer said:

Why should I thank OP? I never asked them to waste their time presenting this information to me. Let alone the fact that community forums make up a tiny, tiny fraction of player bases in any online game.

Beyond that, the post wasn't even negative. It was literally just saying, "hey but don't forget about this."

I think most of you people fail to realize the way your words come across, there is a difference between making a comment saying "hey don't forget this" as you say and completely shooting the OP down. Word diction makes a difference. 

 

On 10/11/2016 at 6:22 PM, motorfirebox said:

Data don't lie, but people are wrong about data all the time. For instance, as impressive as it is that someone took the time to comb through a megathread, all those data reveal are the opinions of the people who posted in the megathread at the time that they posted. There are huge, huge, huge problems with trying to extrapolate the current opinion of the overall playerbase from those data.

I don't believe the OP says "This si the opinion of the entire player base, from what I read he was saying the majority of the people who posted in the Volt feedback. The player base that post of the forums regardless of positive or negative feedback are the players who care more about the game and devote more time to it, I'm not saying their opinion matters more than those that don't but you seem to be defending the silent majority in which case, you cannot say if they are for or against the changes as they have not posted. So who is to say?

[Cytobel]

For the puropses of a feedback thread, there is no "silent majority".  You either leave feedback or you aren't part of the feedback pool.

I would have accepted the flippant, vapid, or even plug posts as being part of the feedback pool, should they have been there at all  (EDIT: there were some of these, but not as many as I expected).  At a certain point you have to consider the idea that those who care enough to do more than mindlessly retweet a "#thumbsup" when something changes might just be the people who count.

I was more disappointed that we had so few positive views in the thread trying to help the rest of us pull our heads out.  The two big arguments I heard in support of the rework were the "well, at least it's better 'cause CC" and the "he's had a rework now, it's workable, so stop complaining and let Warframe X get the rework it deserves".  The first of these was a bit too "glass half full" for me to take, but it was feedback.  The second was the sort of trolling BS that we have to expect from people that didn't give a crap in the first place, but it is also a data point in the sense that it tells much about how a 'Frame is viewed.

I think I want to be wrong about my negative views regarding the rework, but there weren't many convincing counterpoints to my arguments.  That's completely opinion-based, true, but there should've been a FEW people screaming about what a N00b I am, how much I suck because I can't figure how to Volt like a god.  There weren't because Volt IS screwed.   From Electricity's weakness, through his low stat line, to most of his abilities being somewhat lacking (again, electric damage issues and/or swarms of mitigating factors "balancing" them to irrelevance), Volt is in a poor position.  No, he's no longer as #*($%%@ as Zephyr, but he's not even vaguely on par with the "end game 'Frames".  Call me what you want, but I don't see the point of even having "second-line 'Frames" as a thing.  It literally means "these 'Frames suck, but it's all okay because they're SUPPOSED to suck".

The bit that gets me is that, at first, our protests were over minor QoL issues that add up, rather than his general limpness.  We were hoping for a Frost rework, but we didn't even get what the rework claimed it would provide.  No tactical play (still just "shoot 'em an' hit 'em inna FACE FASTAR!), no "keystone" Shock, no real survival mechanics against Corpus, Infested, or (partially) Corrupted foes.  There was no shift away from the broken DPS that cannot do DPS, nothing to cause people to want Volt at high-end Starchart, let alone Sorties.

With all that, what did we ask for?  Discharge cast in the air, this "keystone" idea for Shock to be real, minor tweaks to the stat line (only sprint speed on Prime, for crying out loud), and fewer costs-n-restrictions on Riot Shield so that we could actually USE the damn thing.  What we got was ignored.  Maybe that's just "salty", don't care.

Yeah, I think that the opinions which needed to be looked at were the ones in the feedback thread.  Else if, what's the point of feedback?

Edited October 14, 2016 by Cytobel

[Cytobel]

From what I can gather, a significant portion (a majority even) of the players that expressed their opinions here stated that there was some degree of work still needed for Volt to be successfully reworked.  Most of us have mentioned QoL considerations, and this was the time to make those changes happen.  Many of us questioned significant aspects of the rework, to little avail.  Some of us renewed our occasionally years-old desires for certain skills to be totally replaced.

The fact is this: the rework was not what we needed for Volt.  Moreover, we communicated this point clearly and repeatedly.

[Insizer]

On 10/10/2016 at 10:40 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Its cool.

Question: why lock down a map? What is the point? Where is the fun?

All warframe has is its enemies, take them away, and youd just be walking around empty maps. I get sick watching videos of people cast inaros sand ability, and repetively do the same finishers over and over, but at least its not aoe. And i love banshee, it feels so epic using her and playing dubstep, but when you are playing with the banshee and you see enemies doing the akward back step dance....its just silly.

I revised it, not much new, just cleaner

I'm for locking down a room because it is helpful and decent for panic situations (if the situation is right) if not exploited, which is exactly how I use it. I don't spam it, as my entrenched Volt playstyle is based on his first 3 abilities, not his ult (I learned how to use him when he had Overload so yeah). But I see your point, AOEs need to turned down a notch or two.

The spamming problem with Inaros is that his pocket sand (which is spammable and low cost) was purpose built to sync very well with passive (which is basically an ability or two within itself) that defines his primary damage mechanism (which isn't abilities because he lacks decent offensive moves). His second ability is for lifesteal and ally "summoning", his third is expensive and slow, and his ult is good for armor and lifesteal (and CC I believe). He frankly doesn't have the diversity or options required to allow people to play any other way.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

16 hours ago, Insizer said:

I'm for locking down a room because it is helpful and decent for panic situations (if the situation is right) if not exploited, which is exactly how I use it. I don't spam it, as my entrenched Volt playstyle is based on his first 3 abilities, not his ult (I learned how to use him when he had Overload so yeah). But I see your point, AOEs need to turned down a notch or two.

The spamming problem with Inaros is that his pocket sand (which is spammable and low cost) was purpose built to sync very well with passive (which is basically an ability or two within itself) that defines his primary damage mechanism (which isn't abilities because he lacks decent offensive moves). His second ability is for lifesteal and ally "summoning", his third is expensive and slow, and his ult is good for armor and lifesteal (and CC I believe). He frankly doesn't have the diversity or options required to allow people to play any other way.

Thanks. For all the replies really....

Everything after this is the mother of all rants you arent missing out on if you dont read (although i will probably turn it into a ragey post, i do one about crowd control about every 2 or 3 months).

What drew you to this post and kept you here?

 

Diversity is a necessary thing, options maketh man. Im glad you show reshraint, but thats not really the issue. I can restrain myself from putting my hand in the cookie jar, but for what? Im grown, why am i even using a cookie jar? (Why not cc right? Those panic situations might become more and more frequent to newer tenno(not you) who would otherwise have think about a situation and how to handle it (im talking exactly like someone i had an argument with over Embers wof ...)

Aoes need to be set up for really is what i am also saying, damage and cc.

All that aside, no one seems to see the issues with volt as being detrimental to the actual experience of playing him and also having fun while doing so, or what i am trying to say is that many seem to still have fun even with the issues. Thats not an issue. But why do i have to be left out? We all agree he isnt perfect right?

Volt was never about cc to me. He was exactly what oberon is right now (And saryn, although the cc is built in, not a status effect). A damage frame with light cc. His abilities only had cc because that was/is the status effect of his element, not apart of his kit. Someone said to me that discharge is better because overload had a really short stun, to which i wanted to reply, so does shock, and the amprex, and the amphis, and the castanas, and every electrical thing in game. To me, volt was changed into something he was not and made worse. 

Im posting ideas only because thats all i can think to do right now. You're the only one that has replied, and im thankful for the time you have taken to do so, but no one else really seems to want to have a conversation about volt. Everyone aknowledges in some way or another he isnt perfect, but dont feel it is necessary to bother DE about it or anything, possibly because they think any small thing will keep delaying TWW. Everytime a tenno sneezes, it gets delayed another minute.

Pretty much everyone else seems to enjoy the sense of functionality ( crowd control) over the old Volt, in using him, some even saying the crowd control isnt good enough and needs to last longer....

Even Pandemonium (?) said the ult was less fun to use than overload, but the functionality of discharge makes up for it to them.

I dont get enjoyement from seeing big numbers on the screen, thats not what damage abilities are to me. But that's what warframe seems to think they should be, and what everyone else thinks i want. That discharge is somehow superior to overload because it is capable of giving bigger numbers and that should make up for its failure as an ability.  

Volt has more effective cc (which makes him a tool, the exact same thing for grineer that mag was with sheild polarize pre rework for the corpus, a tool to be used for a purpose but not enjoyed)....just a method to trivialize things because it can be done.

If they ever get around to fixing enemy scaling, or even just add sheild gating, those panic moments wont come so often, if ever, and in my mind, the abundant amount of cc in this game is DEs answer to enemy scaling. There wont be any sheild gating, or armor fixes unless we want to break the game even more, and be even more "overpowered" than what we already have right now. This is how you are supposed to deal with it. Thisability to increase difficulty in this game then comes from taking away powers so you dont always have the option to stop the horror when you need to, because people complain it is too easy without some control being taken away. How many times have you instantly failed a mobile defense the moment you couldnt control the enemies? Damage abilities fall off, they become less effective, they eat energy, and unless you are running non endless, damage abilities punish you in the long run. Nonendless missions themselves are not a baseline to set expectations off of, or people wouldnt harp so much over sheild gating and armor scaling fixes. None of that is relevant or necessary in an exterminate, or sabotage. Endless missions are what give this game life. (Opinionated, my favourite mission type is survival). Imagine if warframe only had non endless missions, with finite amounts of enemies and simplistic objectives (which it does). Any mission would only take maybe 5-7 minutes to complete, maybe 15 if you dragged it out and spent time looking around for stuff. In a mission like that, damage abilities are bad, and cc is ok right? But... thats not all warframe is. Warframe has hordes. Wether we wanted it or not, enemies swarm us. And what does cc do that damage abilities cant? They stop the swarm. They stop the difficulty that was asked for by players. Players who use the cc to stop the difficulty they asked for, and then want more are literally the worst offenders, and i have been a key board warrior against that from the beginning. 

But its what is seen as "fun".

 

My approach to gaming has always been "if you cant hit me, you cant hurt me" and as much health restoration as possible crammed in as possible...

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

I will continue to work to refine this down until its something the community can accept.

[Insizer]

On 10/14/2016 at 3:39 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Thanks. For all the replies really....

Everything after this is the mother of all rants you arent missing out on if you dont read (although i will probably turn it into a ragey post, i do one about crowd control about every 2 or 3 months).

What drew you to this post and kept you here?

  Hide contents

Diversity is a necessary thing, options maketh man. Im glad you show reshraint, but thats not really the issue. I can restrain myself from putting my hand in the cookie jar, but for what? Im grown, why am i even using a cookie jar? (Why not cc right? Those panic situations might become more and more frequent to newer tenno(not you) who would otherwise have think about a situation and how to handle it (im talking exactly like someone i had an argument with over Embers wof ...)

Aoes need to be set up for really is what i am also saying, damage and cc.

All that aside, no one seems to see the issues with volt as being detrimental to the actual experience of playing him and also having fun while doing so, or what i am trying to say is that many seem to still have fun even with the issues. Thats not an issue. But why do i have to be left out? We all agree he isnt perfect right?

Volt was never about cc to me. He was exactly what oberon is right now (And saryn, although the cc is built in, not a status effect). A damage frame with light cc. His abilities only had cc because that was/is the status effect of his element, not apart of his kit. Someone said to me that discharge is better because overload had a really short stun, to which i wanted to reply, so does shock, and the amprex, and the amphis, and the castanas, and every electrical thing in game. To me, volt was changed into something he was not and made worse. 

Im posting ideas only because thats all i can think to do right now. You're the only one that has replied, and im thankful for the time you have taken to do so, but no one else really seems to want to have a conversation about volt. Everyone aknowledges in some way or another he isnt perfect, but dont feel it is necessary to bother DE about it or anything, possibly because they think any small thing will keep delaying TWW. Everytime a tenno sneezes, it gets delayed another minute.

Pretty much everyone else seems to enjoy the sense of functionality ( crowd control) over the old Volt, in using him, some even saying the crowd control isnt good enough and needs to last longer....

Even Pandemonium (?) said the ult was less fun to use than overload, but the functionality of discharge makes up for it to them.

I dont get enjoyement from seeing big numbers on the screen, thats not what damage abilities are to me. But that's what warframe seems to think they should be, and what everyone else thinks i want. That discharge is somehow superior to overload because it is capable of giving bigger numbers and that should make up for its failure as an ability.  

Volt has more effective cc (which makes him a tool, the exact same thing for grineer that mag was with sheild polarize pre rework for the corpus, a tool to be used for a purpose but not enjoyed)....just a method to trivialize things because it can be done.

If they ever get around to fixing enemy scaling, or even just add sheild gating, those panic moments wont come so often, if ever, and in my mind, the abundant amount of cc in this game is DEs answer to enemy scaling. There wont be any sheild gating, or armor fixes unless we want to break the game even more, and be even more "overpowered" than what we already have right now. This is how you are supposed to deal with it. Thisability to increase difficulty in this game then comes from taking away powers so you dont always have the option to stop the horror when you need to, because people complain it is too easy without some control being taken away. How many times have you instantly failed a mobile defense the moment you couldnt control the enemies? Damage abilities fall off, they become less effective, they eat energy, and unless you are running non endless, damage abilities punish you in the long run. Nonendless missions themselves are not a baseline to set expectations off of, or people wouldnt harp so much over sheild gating and armor scaling fixes. None of that is relevant or necessary in an exterminate, or sabotage. Endless missions are what give this game life. (Opinionated, my favourite mission type is survival). Imagine if warframe only had non endless missions, with finite amounts of enemies and simplistic objectives (which it does). Any mission would only take maybe 5-7 minutes to complete, maybe 15 if you dragged it out and spent time looking around for stuff. In a mission like that, damage abilities are bad, and cc is ok right? But... thats not all warframe is. Warframe has hordes. Wether we wanted it or not, enemies swarm us. And what does cc do that damage abilities cant? They stop the swarm. They stop the difficulty that was asked for by players. Players who use the cc to stop the difficulty they asked for, and then want more are literally the worst offenders, and i have been a key board warrior against that from the beginning. 

But its what is seen as "fun".

 

My approach to gaming has always been "if you cant hit me, you cant hurt me" and as much health restoration as possible crammed in as possible...

 

No problem. I like providing feedback.

Among other things, I want to say that I've always viewed as exactly the opposite. To me he is, and always has been, a utility frame that is damage in name only. His kit says that. He has a situational team-buff, a deployable shield, and a weak first attack with quick CC. Frankly the only part of his kit that I have ever said was for damage was his ult. But even then, his ult had and has its issues with that. I love the fact that Volt has a diverse toolkit, I enjoy that there always something that I can be doing. I don't really like damage characters, unless the methods of damage are interesting and diverse. Because to me it is about making large enough numbers pop up on the screen to justify the risk (I'm actually curious about your definition of what damage abilities are). Yes, playing Volt can get monotonous because he only has one or two tools (at most) per situation, but he is no more monotonous than damage frames that have 3 different ways to do the same damage, plus or minus some damage and some effects... You say that his CC is only there because of his element, and you'd be correct, but you make it sound like this CC is an unintended consequence, a happy little accident. But I believe just the opposite, that his CC was designed to come from the electrical proc and that doing so is quite an elegant solution to his practicality. I almost believe that Damage 2.0's Electrical damage was designed around Volt, in part. Before, electrical damage was strictly anti-Corpus and was, for the most part, useless which made Volt strictly anti-Corpus.

But to each their own, and as you said, you are not having fun with Volt. It doesn't sound like you have an issue with his damage output, 

I certainly understand where you are coming from by saying that our CC is too potent. Looking back, it is very potent. Think about it, this should be addressed. But it sounds like you are against any form of CC, or at least hard CC like Bastille and now Discharge (which is similar). Perhaps only a couple of frames should have true hard CC. Being able to completely shut down enemies is powerful. 

I'd comment more, I actually have to go, and I don't want to retype all of this, lol.

One thing I want to type before I go is that I think has caused this problem is the that there are no cooldowns.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

10 hours ago, Insizer said:

No problem. I like providing feedback.

Among other things, I want to say that I've always viewed as exactly the opposite. To me he is, and always has been, a utility frame that is damage in name only. His kit says that. He has a situational team-buff, a deployable shield, and a weak first attack with quick CC. Frankly the only part of his kit that I have ever said was for damage was his ult. But even then, his ult had and has its issues with that. I love the fact that Volt has a diverse toolkit, I enjoy that there always something that I can be doing. I don't really like damage characters, unless the methods of damage are interesting and diverse. Because to me it is about making large enough numbers pop up on the screen to justify the risk (I'm actually curious about your definition of what damage abilities are). Yes, playing Volt can get monotonous because he only has one or two tools (at most) per situation, but he is no more monotonous than damage frames that have 3 different ways to do the same damage, plus or minus some damage and some effects... You say that his CC is only there because of his element, and you'd be correct, but you make it sound like this CC is an unintended consequence, a happy little accident. But I believe just the opposite, that his CC was designed to come from the electrical proc and that doing so is quite an elegant solution to his practicality. I almost believe that Damage 2.0's Electrical damage was designed around Volt, in part. Before, electrical damage was strictly anti-Corpus and was, for the most part, useless which made Volt strictly anti-Corpus.

But to each their own, and as you said, you are not having fun with Volt. It doesn't sound like you have an issue with his damage output, 

I certainly understand where you are coming from by saying that our CC is too potent. Looking back, it is very potent. Think about it, this should be addressed. But it sounds like you are against any form of CC, or at least hard CC like Bastille and now Discharge (which is similar). Perhaps only a couple of frames should have true hard CC. Being able to completely shut down enemies is powerful. 

I'd comment more, I actually have to go, and I don't want to retype all of this, lol.

One thing I want to type before I go is that I think has caused this problem is the that there are no cooldowns.

Damage abilities:

The risk? I love the risk. I enjoy(ed) playing squishy frames (until warframe became dark souls). I guess its like how in the last of us multiplayer, i always run with a bow and arrow. People will ridicule you on the mic even if your on their team, "katniss" is usually the go to...you are frail and vulnerable, fighting against sub machine guns and shot guns. It can be hell. But its worth it when they run up on you thinking you cant do anything, and you put an arrow in their leg, head, and back (theyve fallen down by then) all in the space of 2 seconds with an un upgraded bow, and dont even break stride ( i wish i had made a video, it literally looked like the guy just tripped down the stairs and fell at my feet on accident).

I like a game that requires me to use skill.

I also like explosions. I cant really talk about what i want in damage abilities and powers because only 2 games have ever gotten it completely right (infamous and shadow of mordor), and its hard to refrain from just talking about how awesome they are and how terrible warframe is with some (most) of its powers ...(but i just did anyways...)

Well, first off, to me there is only utility and damage in electric sheild and speed, especially since e sheild doenst stop anything from coming through. Shock sort of reminds me of cole...i just use it cus it looks cool. And then overload. I used it cus it looked cool(situationally, with lights). Now what reason do i have to use it?

If you have a set amount of enemy health to work with, you can look beyond the numbers and math, and focus on the ability itself being truly awesome....(worded poorly). Instead of a radial nuke, that expends x amount of energy for x amount of damage against some theoretical group of enemies, with a health cap...you can have something fun that rains lightning down from the sky. 

"Fun is subjective"

It really all boils down to the fact that many people were making comparisons between warframe and darksouls, wishing boss fights and enemies to be like that.....well, if i was going to champion for another game that warframe could draw inspiration from, it would hands down have to be the infamous series.

Damage abilities to me are about visuals. Awesomess. Being focused on attacking instead of just defense and support. Not numbers. Not one button mashing.

This is an electrical alternative to gunplay

I think quite oppositely from everyone here possibly because of that. Warframe right now is power spammy in all the wrong ways and full of power denial, is way more darksouls oriented than i would like with all of the insta death everywhere past level 60 (without a tanky frame), especially if you solo, and at the same time, has nothing of infamous, shadow of mordor or the last of us i would wish for. So im not content. Of course not, but when you think about it, warframe isnt really dark souls either, so those guys are probably just as unhappy at that same time. What is warframes identity?

Many warframe abilities are : boring, bland, one dimensional, limited, unimaginative and useless to me. I originally started playing this game (almost nonstop for 2 years) because volt gave me a little of what i was looking for. Now not so much at all.

To adress hard Cc:

i think it needs to be something that you have to set up. Work for. That goes for all radial abilities. What they did for saryn was sort of the right direction.

But at the same time, each warframe does not need to be limited to 4 powers. Your abilities could follow the same skill tree your focus used. Synergy everywhere!

Vauban. You wouldnt just press a button, and boom! Bastille! You'd need to drop a bounce pad. The bounce pad would grow on command until it was bastille. You could turn it into a damage ability by casting the tesla ball on it(im not a vauban main, dont judge please). 

Banshee. Sonic boom can be held down until it sreads 360 degrees around banshee to become a version of sound quake. Sonic boom would also resonate within the tile set, creating "echos" of banshee (weird idea from walking towards a frat party and thinking the music was comimg from several different places)

These arent even too terribly serious, i just do not approve of instant radial stuns and simplistic (boring) powers. Thats all there really is to my discontent.