How to nerf melee weapons for a bit

[Dragazer]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

"Impressed"...? What gave you the impression that I was boasting? I am an average player at best in any game. Don't make this personal. You haven't offered any counter-evidence, only off-handedly dismissed my arguments. Even though we are basically in agreement, by your first few posts in this thread.

There are two ways for me to realistically test whether I can one-shot a lv80 corrupted enemy: either solo T4 sur for a few hours until enemy levels ramp up, or stay for about an hour and a half with a full squad. I don't personally know anyone who would help me test those conditions, and I really don't feel like mashing O for three hours to prove a point. So it'll have to wait till tomorrow's sorties.

I never said you were boasting, but when you sarcastically title a video: "Naramon is Fair and Balanced" with you just killing level 25 enemies in order to support your point that it is broken, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Another over exageration? Anyone who has played T4 survivals for long runs would tell you that at 60 mins already, enemies are at the level 100s. Definitely not a "few hours".

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Naramon does far, far more than "close the gap" between melee and guns. 

Naramon is the definition of overpowered. It nullifies threat completely and permanently. 

I don't see how we are in agreement, I believe Naramon and its associated mechanics are fine at where it is atm.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Dragazer

[GreyEnneract]

Instead of trying to nerf invisibility you could just, you know, create an enemy that specifically counters it.

Such as animal enemies being able to "sniff" you out, enemies that cast a blind to find your shadow, enemies that throw out a sticky substance that attaches to you and remains visible. There are many ways to make stealth not as apparently "cheese" without directly nerfing stealth. While I agree with most of DE's recent frame nerfs, having only a nerf mindset is detrimental to balance.

[ranks21]

have you guys noticed that all the weapons that used to do above 5k crits on headshots are now doing 1k or less and those that used to hit 100k is doing or struggling to hit 10k? this game is getting weaker and boring as fck each passing hotfix shoe horning players into one playstyle when it used to be diverse and fun.

what I have noticed a few days back from the nerf threads is when ember ivara inaros and limbo are put on the table for nerfs convo these same players wanting nerfs in other threads gets hysterically ignorant and outright furious defending their favorite frames..

last year's cries was YOQ and Diversity>> this year its NERFS and Balance which is making the game BORING and Lifeless.

Edited June 8, 2016 by ranks21

[Invidia]

I do not understand why you even to want to nerf something in PvE games -_-

[Palor0]

I am always amused that a PvE game such as this has constant cries of NERF this and NERF that.  What ever happened to the days of people calling for balance vs nerfs?

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Just now, Dragazer said:

I never said you were boasting, but when you sarcastically title a video: "Naramon is Fair and Balanced" with you just killing level 25 enemies, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Another over exageration? Anyone who has played T4 survivals for long runs would tell you that at 60 mins already, enemies are at the level 100s. Definitely not a few hours.

I honestly never even check enemy levels outside the simulacrum. I just gauge when to extract by how much damage I'm taking. Probably a bad habit, but the font is small and my eyes are S#&$ even with lenses. Wish my PC could handle WF at higher settings.

And yeah, I'm a sarcastic guy. I find sarcasm funny, as long as it's not malicious. But the reason I am decrying Naramon is not because of its damage potential. It's because you are effectively invulnerable as long as there are no targetable friendly units within 10 meters of you. You saw the vid. The AI completely ignored me. The effect doesn't require a special setup, although it can be made more easily abusable by certain mods. And if melee damage output doesn't seem high enough to you, that's fine, because you can just slide-crit with quick melee every 8 seconds and keep shooting. That's why I used Banshee; no need for a silencing mod.

Just attempted to test in the simulacrum before remembering Focus passives don't work there. Guess I'm doing this the unpleasant way.

[Alma_Elma]

6 minutes ago, Palor0 said:

I am always amused that a PvE game such as this has constant cries of NERF this and NERF that.  What ever happened to the days of people calling for balance vs nerfs?

We have become that, which we hate.

[bad4youLT]

3 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Melee doesn't need a nerf. Naramon needs a nerf.

 naramon doesnt need a nerf , rest of useless focus tress need a buff

[ranks21]

you are not invulnerable in naramon's invisibility. and if the ai doesn't see you while youre invisible simply means that its working as intended<< word of advice stop using simulacrum as a crutch to say anything is op it is not an accurate scenario or tool to use to represent what the game THROWS at you in real MISSIONS.

Edited June 8, 2016 by ranks21

[armedpoop]

3 hours ago, YasaiTsume said:

Naramon Shadow Step needs a mechanically more interesting alternative to plain ol' invisibol. (Nerf hue)

My take on Shadow Step is to give it a few effects :

1. Movement speed boost

2. Attacking enemies will turn the Naramon user invisible for a split second, therefore, higher attack speed, more invisibility

3. Naramon user is invisible during Parkour moves

4. Killing an enemy will grant a very short window of invisibility 

It should be less oppressive than plain perma invisibility because in between kills the enemy still has chance to sight the player if they are not actively parkouring about the place as they should, because Ninjas need to be fast and stealthy. 

Less oppressive to who? Also if you are "constantly parkouring like you should" how would you keep your combo counter up? Tell me how one would even melee under these conditions please.

 

Also "because ninjas need to be fast and stealthy" is completely irrelevant for a number of reasons. 

[armedpoop]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I honestly never even check enemy levels outside the simulacrum. I just gauge when to extract by how much damage I'm taking. Probably a bad habit, but the font is small and my eyes are S#&amp;&#036; even with lenses. Wish my PC could handle WF at higher settings.

And yeah, I'm a sarcastic guy. I find sarcasm funny, as long as it's not malicious. But the reason I am decrying Naramon is not because of its damage potential. It's because you are effectively invulnerable as long as there are no targetable friendly units within 10 meters of you. You saw the vid. The AI completely ignored me. The effect doesn't require a special setup, although it can be made more easily abusable by certain mods. And if melee damage output doesn't seem high enough to you, that's fine, because you can just slide-crit with quick melee every 8 seconds and keep shooting. That's why I used Banshee; no need for a silencing mod.

Just attempted to test in the simulacrum before remembering Focus passives don't work there. Guess I'm doing this the unpleasant way.

So who exactly is this unfair to? (based on your video name) cause I just need to hear who its unfair to. The fact that you really think being invisible is basically invulnerability is pretty strange. Its strong sure, but its not nearly as strong as full on invulnerability. Also, focus abilitiy passives DO work in the simulacrum (on pc at least)

Edited June 8, 2016 by armedpoop

[(PSN)I_AM_FIRED_UP]

Can I ask something? Have you even used naramon and meele combo?As stated above, enemies have a lot of ways to counter it and you can die easily.

[Soketsu]

I can't believe they're some who still debating about that... alright

Naramon is strong for surviving, since most ennemie won't harm stealth players, but it need some preparation (beside the 5 min of setup)

a as long u do critical melee damage you are invisible for (10 s )=>

b you must go melee and deal critical damage =>

c you must have a melee weapon with correct critical chance & you must go in melee range

=> you losing time to go fight enemy (and they may kill you in the process if you fighting 80 corrupted/grineer/etc lvl120 hitscan foes)

it's doesn't matter for mission like survival or interception, since you do no not have to take down everyone, just hold on

however in def excavation mission it's not optimal to take down armies when you have to go melee , either you have to leaving the objective or you have to wait they come closer in order to have the chance to proc narramon. And if you become invisible, good they will now have less target other than the (pod/extractor...)

In each case you are less efficient than a madurai who deal more physical damage at all range or a zenurik who will nuke everything with his powers as long than enemy are not immune to powers (or damage)

And this two can fight wherever they please with their powers, naramon not

If your struggle is that you are "invincible" like the ancient valkyr, when the enemy will react better to stealth players (will shot the direction where they get hit, deal an aoe attack....) what will be the consequences ?

right now why don't you think to every control/confusion powers who can lock down large groups ?

Not mention that melee weapon is not the most powerful weapons...unless you play with finish damages

[YasaiTsume]

2 hours ago, NightElve said:

i read all that and meh.. i prefer DE's design, problem is you actually, a large amount of warframe players are struggling to upgrade shadow step, you grinded for  it got bored with it fine.... that's your problem all this nerf players, quit playing the game and switch to being developers, it's funnier when you see players suggesting how to build certain skills.

Hey just giving my two cents.

I think Shadow Step is boring with just plain invisibility. 

I haven't even touched Naramon, I'm a Vazarin user. 

[(PSN)Doctor-Blitz-]

Not a single like for the starting post a actual time. I don't feel that Mellee is OP. Even Naramon is quit hard to play at higher levels.

The knockdowns will become a problem or you have to sacrifice a mod place for an anti knockdown mod. It's not game breaking. During Sorties it's rarely used. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by (PS4)Doctor-Blitz-

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Then he realized he had the wrong active Focus. Duh-hurr.

Just tested in the simulacrum vs lv135 corrupted heavies. For the purpose of the test, I used a Surging Dash Excal to boost the multiplier to 2.5x so my DPS would stay consistent, and then started wailing on a separate target. At 2.5x combo multiplier with a Hate build I slapped together on the spot, it took about 30 hits to kill one, and that's including the bleed procs. Inconsistent results, though, because one died in twelve hits. Not sure what happened there. Switched to my Fragor Prime build, results were about the same (damage per hit was three times higher, but those bleed procs add up). Dropped their level down to 80, and it took between 15 and 20 hits to kill one just mashing O at 2.5x multiplier. So, yeah, you're correct in that melee damage alone will eventually not be enough. This was purely mashing melee with no slide/charged attacks or powers. Then brought out Opticor, slide-crit and started headshotting. Damage was obviously minimal, and they did open fire, but weren't able to track me well enough to land any bullets. Switched to Soma Prime, and they were able to track me, but inconsistently even while I held the trigger down. Switched back to Fragor Prime and used Radial Blind, then used charged attacks at 2x multiplier. They died after 4-5 charged attacks each. Two finishers was enough to kill one with no multiplier, and a single finisher killed at 2x. Brought enemy level down to 60. At 2.5x multiplier, each enemy died in 5-6 normal melee attacks.

So, yeah, Naramon isn't exactly godmode by itself. Your damage will eventually fall off no matter what, and you can be targeted while using an automatic weapon. There are lots of frames who could easily exploit aggro immunity to perform far better than those damage tests. Regardless, I stand by my main argument that Naramon players are at their peak personal effectiveness when they abandon the rest of the squad. As for whether that merits a nerf or adjusting how invisibility functions, that's a more delicate question. I just feel that it overrides playstyle, rather than accentuating it. I also dislike that it promotes the lone wolf attitude you so often see in survival. But you could make the case that's a playstyle choice.

tl;dr: I was mistaken, but I stand by my greater point.

[YasaiTsume]

1 hour ago, armedpoop said:

Less oppressive to who? Also if you are "constantly parkouring like you should" how would you keep your combo counter up? Tell me how one would even melee under these conditions please.

 

Also "because ninjas need to be fast and stealthy" is completely irrelevant for a number of reasons. 

Well technically if I were to run solo in any mission, and I'm permanently invisible, the enemies won't have anything to aim at.

Therefore, being permanently invisible removes all sorts of challenge in the game. 

And I find that boring. 

I know it's just me but I prefer that Shadow Step had a more interesting mechanic, given it is a lasting buff as soon as the player activates Focus. 

Regarding combo counter, I think Bodycount gives plenty of time.

Besides, when running after enemies, players usually resort to Parkour to catch up isn't that so?

I am not just suggesting to remove Invisibility from Shadow Step, I'm just suggesting that a Naramon user should be rewarded for playing aggressively with Melee combat, rewarding them with Movement Speed, rewarding them with Invisibility when they assault an enemy, and pushing them towards their next kill.

 But hey, everyone is entitled to think as they like, and I think I see that many players who are against a Naramon nerf in particular just enjoy running around without being shot at and stabbing at enemies, which is fine. 

But boring. 

[DatDarkOne]

22 hours ago, Palor0 said:

I am always amused that a PvE game such as this has constant cries of NERF this and NERF that.  What ever happened to the days of people calling for balance vs nerfs?

That's because they don't play with those frames/weapons/focus and just want to be annoying to everyone else.  OP is trying to say naramon is OP but is forgetting or doesn't know that you have to do all this (in the post below) to make it even work.  Sounds like pure envy/hate to me.  

20 hours ago, Soketsu said:

I can't believe they're some who still debating about that... alright

Naramon is strong for surviving, since most ennemie won't harm stealth players, but it need some preparation (beside the 5 min of setup)

a as long u do critical melee damage you are invisible for (10 s )=>

b you must go melee and deal critical damage =>

c you must have a melee weapon with correct critical chance & you must go in melee range

=> you losing time to go fight enemy (and they may kill you in the process if you fighting 80 corrupted/grineer/etc lvl120 hitscan foes)

it's doesn't matter for mission like survival or interception, since you do no not have to take down everyone, just hold on

however in def excavation mission it's not optimal to take down armies when you have to go melee , either you have to leaving the objective or you have to wait they come closer in order to have the chance to proc narramon. And if you become invisible, good they will now have less target other than the (pod/extractor...)

In each case you are less efficient than a madurai who deal more physical damage at all range or a zenurik who will nuke everything with his powers as long than enemy are not immune to powers (or damage)

And this two can fight wherever they please with their powers, naramon not

If your struggle is that you are "invincible" like the ancient valkyr, when the enemy will react better to stealth players (will shot the direction where they get hit, deal an aoe attack....) what will be the consequences ?

right now why don't you think to every control/confusion powers who can lock down large groups ?

Not mention that melee weapon is not the most powerful weapons...unless you play with finish damages

22 hours ago, GreyEnneract said:

Instead of trying to nerf invisibility you could just, you know, create an enemy that specifically counters it.

Such as animal enemies being able to "sniff" you out, enemies that cast a blind to find your shadow, enemies that throw out a sticky substance that attaches to you and remains visible. There are many ways to make stealth not as apparently "cheese" without directly nerfing stealth. While I agree with most of DE's recent frame nerfs, having only a nerf mindset is detrimental to balance.

There are already a few enemies that counter invisibility.  Most of them are Corpus.  Some of the Invested seem to sniff you out.  Then there is the increased damage received when invisible.  So much in fact that I have to get away from party members to not die from crossfire.  

 

 

[GreyEnneract]

27 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

That's because they don't play with those frames/weapons/focus and just want to be annoying to everyone else.  OP is trying to say naramon is OP but is forgetting or doesn't know that you have to do all this (in the post below) to make it even work.  Sounds like pure envy/hate to me.  

There are already a few enemies that counter invisibility.  Most of them are Corpus.  Some of the Invested seem to sniff you out.  Then there is the increased damage received when invisible.  So much in fact that I have to get away from party members to not die from crossfire.  

 

 

Which ones? Currently only Fog & Nul Comba/Scrambus directly counter stealth.

[DatDarkOne]

59 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Which ones? Currently only Fog & Nul Comba/Scrambus directly counter stealth.

The Comba/Scrambus are the real ones I was referring to.  Supposedly the Hyekka Masters are able to sense/detect stealth frames, but I'm not too sure about that one.  The others come in if you get sloppy.  The various annoying Osprey and Isolator Bursa.  The Grineer have the nice Arc mine traps, and a beam trap that even the new Ivara augment can't get past.  Solo they aren't that much of an issue.  Throw in group play, and all that changes.  

Edited June 9, 2016 by DatDarkOne
correction

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

The Comba/Scrambus are the real ones I was referring to.  Supposedly the Hyekka are able to sense/detect stealth frames, but I'm not too sure about that one.  The others come in if you get sloppy.  The various annoying Osprey and Isolator Bursa.  The Grineer have the nice Arc mine traps, and a beam trap that even the new Ivara augment can't get past.  Solo they aren't that much of an issue.  Throw in group play, and all that changes.  

According to an old stream they were supposed to, but they don't. Arc traps are one shot lol.

All other enemies just shoot at where they saw you last, or if you directly bump into them they shoot at that location.

Still a lot of room left for direct stealth counters.

[TotallyLagging]

"Naramon is broken so let's nerf melee"

[DatDarkOne]

11 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Still a lot of room left for direct stealth counters.

Ok, but here's the real question.  Why?  Please don't say any garbage like "invisibility is OP" or "Stealth needs more challenge".  I want a real honest answer of why you feel there needs to be more counters.  Also, I do agree with you that everything doesn't need the nerf hammer.  :D

Edited June 9, 2016 by DatDarkOne
clarification

[GreyEnneract]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Ok, but here's the real question.  Why?  Please don't say any garbage like "invisibility is OP" or "Stealth needs more challenge".  I want a real honest answer of why you feel there needs to be more counters.  

Asking for more challenge isn't a garbage answer.

There need to be specific, well thought out counters for every ability.

Not something that just cancels all powers (poorly designed Nullifiers), but enemies that solely target that single ability's archetype.

This would have to be implemented after enemy cheese is nerfed however, since all current stealth frames get one-shot without including Naramon.

[DatDarkOne]

Specific counters for EVERY ability.  Good luck with that.  I can't think of any other frames that have counters for their abilities if you don't count Nullifiers.  The combas might be it for them also.  Considering the scope of that goal, I just don't see it happening.  I keep seeing Saryn's spores, Nyx's power, and others.    Then add that OP wants to nerf melee.  

Edited June 9, 2016 by DatDarkOne
additions