Multishot or raw damage?

[TTV.ViccValentine]

I usually go a mix of both, but should I lean more towards one or the other?

[Zavenosk]

Multishot is usually one of the best single mods for improving damage, and is used in nearly all damage builds.  And most status builds as well.  There is really no big reason not to use it atm.  

[DarcnyssWolfe]

If your talking Corrupt Damage mod (Heavy Cal) or Multishot, always go multishot. Not even heavy cal provides a better boost in damage than its multishot (Split Chamber), assuming you already have the main base damage mod (Serration in this case). If there was some other mod you were choosing between, only maybe Lethal Torrent could be substituted with a different mod if the weapon can't handle the rate of fire increase.

As far as per weapon, if its not the Simulor or SynSim, always go multishot. For the two mentioned, they gain nothing from the multishot, only decrease the shots needed to reach a vortex, nothing more.

[shut]

Both. Simulor aside, there is never a reason to not go full Serration + Split Chamber at the same time.

Whether you want to stack additional base damage mods on top of those (Heavy Caliber, Spoiled Strike, etc) varies depending on the weapon and user preference, but always, ALWAYS at least have both base damage and Multishot on.

Edited June 25, 2016 by SortaRandom

[taiiat]

yes, both Multishot and Damage.
because both, are Damage.

[Aglethe]

As everyone else has said, in general you want both.

A lot of it has to do with maximising multiplicative stacking over additive stacking.

If we look at a maxed Heavy Calibre vs a maxed Split Chamber (and assume that a maxed Serration is already present) for example: You're already at 265% base damage (100% innate base damage + 165% from Serration) so even the 165% additional base damage from Heavy Calibre is only increasing your total overall damage by just a little over 61.5% (265% vs 430%), and that's even before we consider any potential damage lost from the accuracy penalty. Wheras, with Split Chamber, you're getting exactly what it says on the tin, an extra 90% damage (well, a 90% chance of 100% more damage to be precise), and it has the additional benefit of generating more samples to help even out the rng of crits and status procs. So between those two, Split Chamber is virtually always going to be the more benefical mod, at least until Damage 3.0 comes anyway. ;)

Dunking Machine has a really good video about what kinds of things you might want to be thinking about when trying to decide how to mod your weapons:

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Aglethe

[Valkyrion]

Depends on weapon. Believing in Multishot is one of the major diseases in this game.

but Multishot are indeed better than some damage mods like point blank for shotguns (if you don't have the primed version.)

[-N7-Leonhart]

On 6/25/2016 at 5:55 PM, LuccarFlakk said:

I usually go a mix of both, but should I lean more towards one or the other?

There is NO build without multishot. ALWAYS, 1st mod, damage mod (ex. Serration) and ALWAYS 2nd mod multishot (ex. Split Chamber). Anything that comes after those 2 it's always less important.

[rapt0rman]

23 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

Depends on weapon. Believing in Multishot is one of the major diseases in this game.

but Multishot are indeed better than some damage mods like point blank for shotguns (if you don't have the primed version.)

I don't think "believe" works when it's all mathematically sound, that said, I'd love for them to give it some downsides so that there's ever a reason to not use it.

[-N7-Leonhart]

3 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

I don't think "believe" works when it's all mathematically sound, that said, I'd love for them to give it some downsides so that there's ever a reason to not use it.

Indeed. For example, Split Chamber provides more damage bonus than Heavy Caliber does, after Serration has been calculated. And Heavy Caliber has downsides to it....

[Valkyrion]

7 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

I don't think "believe" works when it's all mathematically sound, that said, I'd love for them to give it some downsides so that there's ever a reason to not use it.

Your mathematics are bad if you don't have a reason to not use multishot mods. The only thing that will make multishot an always beneficial upgrade is when there are unlimited amount of mod slots.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Your mathematics are bad if you don't have a reason to not use multishot mods. The only thing that will make multishot an always beneficial upgrade is when there are unlimited amount of mod slots.

Do you understand how Multishot works?

 

I don't think you do... Lets say you have a paris prime with max multishot, 90% of the time you are firing two arrows every time you shoot that deal the same amount of damag. Since Paris Prime can always crits you are shooting two arrows that both crit 90% of the time. Without the multishot you are only firing one arrow. You basically double your damage with multishot mods 90% of the time, and thats only on primary weapons. Shotguns get 120% multishot and secondary weapons get even more. You would be crazy not to use a multishot mod. I wish there was a melee version of multishot cause its only does everything. I'll explain it very simply. More projectiles fired = higher damage, Higher chance that projectiles will crit or proc status effects and higher chance of hitting a target (shotguns mostly). 

 

Also try to avoid double negatives in a sentence as it is just sounds weird. Example: Your grammar is bad if you don't have a reason to not avoid avoid double negatives.

[Valkyrion]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Do you understand how Multishot works?

 

I don't think you do... Lets say you have a paris prime with max multishot, 90% of the time you are firing two arrows every time you shoot that deal the same amount of damag. Since Paris Prime can always crits you are shooting two arrows that both crit 90% of the time. Without the multishot you are only firing one arrow. You basically double your damage with multishot mods 90% of the time, and thats only on primary weapons. Shotguns get 120% multishot and secondary weapons get even more. You would be crazy not to use a multishot mod. I wish there was a melee version of multishot cause its only does everything. I'll explain it very simply. More projectiles fired = higher damage, Higher chance that projectiles will crit or proc status effects and higher chance of hitting a target (shotguns mostly). 

 

Also try to avoid double negatives in a sentence as it is just sounds weird. Example: Your grammar is bad if you don't have a reason to not avoid avoid double negatives.

I wish people here in warframe can understand simple math statistics instead of 1+1= 2 times damage. Even then running experiments ingame prove myself valid. And i think you're the one that misunderstood, I see nothing wrong with my statement before.

[BlueSabre]

For weapons like the penta, castanas or talons multishot is not a necesity. 

[Inarticulate]

For any build that doesn't require a specific number of projectiles per shot, you're always going to want at least a damage mod, a multishot mod, and an elemental mod because the each of these three types is purely multiplicative relative to mods of the other two types (i.e. simplified : [average damage per shot] = [base damage] x (1 + [damage]) x (1 + [multishot]) x (1 + [elemental])). Fire rate is multiplicative with all three of the aforementioned mod types, but has a down-side that needs to be considered (reduced ammo economy and shorter burst before a reload is required), so it isn't always used even though it produces similar increases to short-burst damage output.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

13 hours ago, BlueSabre said:

For weapons like the penta, castanas or talons multishot is not a necesity. 

 

For the Penta its optional in the sense that you can only have 5 grenades out at once, But its still a damage increase if you fire and detonate two grenades at the same time versus one grenade.

17 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

I wish people here in warframe can understand simple math statistics instead of 1+1= 2 times damage. Even then running experiments ingame prove myself valid. And i think you're the one that misunderstood, I see nothing wrong with my statement before.

 

Without Multishot mods its only around 30 million

You don't understand statistics very well. Multishot doubles your damage 90% of the time and that's only on primary weapons. Shotguns get 120% multishot or double damage 100% of the time with 20% chance for even more. The Hek can get even higher numbers.

Multishot makes everything stronger, as instead of 1 bullet dealing 2000 toxin damage you get 2 bullets dealing a combinded 4000 damage. Lets say the second shot crits and one bullet does 2000 damage the other bullet does 4000 damage, Thats pretty significant

Edited June 28, 2016 by (PS4)UltraKardas

[Valkyrion]

3 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

 

Without Multishot mods its only around 30 million

You don't understand statistics very well. Multishot doubles your damage 90% of the time and that's only on primary weapons. Shotguns get 120% multishot or double damage 100% of the time with 20% chance for even more. The Hek can get even higher numbers.

Multishot makes everything stronger, as instead of 1 bullet dealing 2000 toxin damage you get 2 bullets dealing a combinded 4000 damage. Lets say the second shot crits and one bullet does 2000 damage the other bullet does 4000 damage, Thats pretty significant

Nice try but that's not statistics, that's bias.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

4 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Nice try but that's not statistics, that's bias.

At first I thought you were serious, now I believe we can all agree your just trolling. On topic, multi-shot is a near direct multiplier to all damage, similar to base damage. However similarly, the more you stack the less effective each mod is in total. However with current mod values you're generally better off with multi shot over more (already using the main base damage mod) base damage.

[Valkyrion]

24 minutes ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

At first I thought you were serious, now I believe we can all agree your just trolling. On topic, multi-shot is a near direct multiplier to all damage, similar to base damage. However similarly, the more you stack the less effective each mod is in total. However with current mod values you're generally better off with multi shot over more (already using the main base damage mod) base damage.

You can believe in me or not in whatever you seem fit, but that doesn't change the fact that there are still mods that can replace multishot mods in terms of benefit.

[Epsik-kun]

1 hour ago, Valkyrion said:

there are still mods that can replace multishot mods in terms of benefit

Example?

[DarcnyssWolfe]

40 minutes ago, Valkyrion said:

You can believe in me or not in whatever you seem fit, but that doesn't change the fact that there are still mods that can replace multishot mods in terms of benefit.

Mind giving us an example as to when one should substitute multi-shot for something else, assuming all the core mods for a build (2x dual status/both crit/non-corrupt base damage mod).

Barring the Simulor and Lethal Torrent, there is no situation where substituting Multi-shot for another mod will not be less efficient. Status? More chance to proc. Crit? More chances to crit. Raw damage? High chance (or guarantee) to double both your base AND elemental damage. Now yes, if you're lacking a mandatory mod from the weapon (not enough points yet or bad/s&g build) certain mods can be more useful than multi-shot, but rarely. In a fully modded weapon, multi-shot will always be present in its current state, again barring the Simulor and Lethal Torrent.

[LazyKnight]

36 minutes ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

Mind giving us an example as to when one should substitute multi-shot for something else, assuming all the core mods for a build (2x dual status/both crit/non-corrupt base damage mod).

The only time someone should drop a multi shot mod, is when they do not have a catalyst on a weapon and the limitation exist of having to maximize that 30 point limit. And that's only because of how essential it is to get corrosive or radiation on a weapon for armor mitigation.

Edit: unless the weapon has 4 polarized slots

Edited June 28, 2016 by LazyKnight

[Valkyrion]

1 hour ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

Mind giving us an example as to when one should substitute multi-shot for something else, assuming all the core mods for a build (2x dual status/both crit/non-corrupt base damage mod).

Barring the Simulor and Lethal Torrent, there is no situation where substituting Multi-shot for another mod will not be less efficient. Status? More chance to proc. Crit? More chances to crit. Raw damage? High chance (or guarantee) to double both your base AND elemental damage. Now yes, if you're lacking a mandatory mod from the weapon (not enough points yet or bad/s&g build) certain mods can be more useful than multi-shot, but rarely. In a fully modded weapon, multi-shot will always be present in its current state, again barring the Simulor and Lethal Torrent.

Seems like people here favors modding damage or DPS. If that's the case then i give up in explaning. 

May this question open up the mind (or confuse) of those who keeps using the same Min-Max/multishot everywhere meta: " Which one is better? a 10000RPM gun that shoots the weakest bullet? or a 60 RPM gun that shoots the strongest bullet?" Now don't take it seriously, mostly it doesn't make sense but guess which one is the answer.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

2 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Seems like people here favors modding damage or DPS. If that's the case then i give up in explaning. 

May this question open up the mind (or confuse) of those who keeps using the same Min-Max/multishot everywhere meta: " Which one is better? a 10000RPM gun that shoots the weakest bullet? or a 60 RPM gun that shoots the strongest bullet?" Now don't take it seriously, mostly it doesn't make sense but guess which one is the answer.

On your example it would depend how much mow much damage "the strongest bullet" does versus the weaker bullet. My vectis prime did 114 million damage just a few posts up. also a 10,000 rpm weapon would run out of ammo very quickly, making it rather useless. It also depends how you are building your weapon. Do you want a raw damage gun? do you want a status proc gun? do you want a crit oriented gun? In all scenarios, Multishot would be the second strongest mod.

 

I mod most of my guns for either mass destruction (sancti tigris with punch through) or high single target damage ( vectis prime, lex prime) There's no real point for me to add other mods like fire rate to just use more bullets to kill the same enemy

 

[Valkyrion]

6 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

On your example it would depend how much mow much damage "the strongest bullet" does versus the weaker bullet. My vectis prime did 114 million damage just a few posts up. also a 10,000 rpm weapon would run out of ammo very quickly, making it rather useless. It also depends how you are building your weapon. Do you want a raw damage gun? do you want a status proc gun? do you want a crit oriented gun? In all scenarios, Multishot would be the second strongest mod.

 

I mod most of my guns for either mass destruction (sancti tigris with punch through) or high single target damage ( vectis prime, lex prime) There's no real point for me to add other mods like fire rate to just use more bullets to kill the same enemy

 

That's where you guys got it wrong, "same enemy". And i didn't even say anything about the ammo pool on weapons, You just literally come to the conclusion that "fire rate = useless". Next up you're probably gonna be telling me you use energy siphon on all your warframe? 4 CP? carrier prime? If you only think in the factors about those kind of things in the game that babysits you through level 100+, And you just shoot your way through, you got it all wrong. Not every mission is the same, not every person is the same. And just like what you said, you either mod for two things, which is fine for you but not everyone.

The best example is sortie, Mission like interception pistol only, you can use your lex prime or any destructive things but here i am soloing them using sonicor with fire rate, literally gapping in the delay between ragdoll.
OR even low level mission where you actually need those high rpm weapons and not just press 4 to win speedrun.

There are really no "better" or "mandatory" mods.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Valkyrion

[DarthBane1]

Depends on the mission, weapons, etc. If you want to be very precise (Say with a bow), I recommend no multishot as it can jack with the shot. However, if you want to do TONS of damage and don't care what gets hit(EXE Tonkor or penta or a shotgun) then yes, multishot.