Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

[Otaiken]

I honestly can't remember last time I died from simply being overwhelmed by enemies or by getting cornered and stuff like that.

Every single death that happened to me in months was one shot from half to full health by some random entity. I don't die often but when I do it's always that.

Main causes: Knockdown and instant death (shotgunners mostly), getting onshot by nullifiers sniper rifle from somwhere inside not one but 3 bubbles (yep, they also have weapons), napalms or bombards or scoreches (once sortie scorch took down the entire group in 1 second lol, all 4 players at once).

My favorite? getting one shot by railgun MOA through a wall. That one was kinda funny.

[LunarEdge7]

3 minutes ago, MacabreHaze said:

sentients however don't have a high of a spawn rate as nullifiers. They spawn 4~5 at a time, once, on moon missions (Pre-update). Trying to spontaneously fly by jumping off a cliff could get you killed as well if something goes wrong. But does that mean it is a challenge? 

AH YES, the spawn rate. One thing we can all agree on.

[-Sandman]

39 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Endless = Enemy scaling does not stop and you are not required to extract at the first reward and can instead choose when to leave. Eventually, no matter how skilled, well-geared, or organized you are, enemy scaling will either force you out of the mission or you will die. Endless in Warframe missions does not relate in the slightest to letting you play for an infinite amount of time. DE even says this themselves. They design the scaling on those mission type to force you out.

Broken enemy scaling. 

But again I ask if you are not supposed to stay, why make the mission endless then? Why not cap the mission time? The void rewards system has already been changed anyway. 

[rngd444]

16 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The bubble shrinking mechanic is to stop people from one-shotting the bubble, making their entire existence pointless. Also, in case you didnt read the patch notes, Melee weapons will strike the null and the bubble. So you could have ten thousand on top of one another and as long as your weapon hits multiple targets you will hit all of them. The bubble does not stop your melee attack from striking a target.

Jat Kittag does this lovely little thing known as ragdoll on the enemy. Ragdolled enemies cant do S#&$ until they stand up. Enemies fallen down can be killed with melee finisher attacks or shot at point blank. Lastly, of you are facing a level 130 null, its a Sortie, which is supposed to be hard. Holy crud, you now actually have a chance to lose a mission.

You really just nitpick what you want, heh. I never said you should be able to one-shot them; it simply would be nice for every weapon to be able to do something if going in there isn't exactly a healthy option. In case you aren't aware, the only reason why shotguns aren't effective is the rate at which the game retrieves the incoming shots as it considers them to hit simultaneously. The same effect can be seen with a laggy host and e.g. the Twin Grakatas: usually, you can just spray twenty-something bullets in there to pop it but with a bad connection it will 'stack' bullets to hit 'simultaneously', so it won't validate all the individual hits. With an infinitely precise system, all pellets of shotguns would be acknowledged to impact at different times, so it's merely a technical matter on that example. Now tell me this makes sense and is a fully intended mechanic without any flaws.

I'm aware you hit all of them at once and I'm telling you it doesn't make a difference. You can't argue with 'get good' all the time only now to say 'take your time and just hit them multiple times until all the bubbles are down'. In reality, you'd be pretty much dead on that attempt. And yes, you have to be inside the bubble to strike the target which, to a point, makes the simultaneous shrinking counterproductive since they get smaller and smaller, so you won't be able to get in there to hit them anymore (especially if stacked).

I wouldn't call ragdolling a consistent way to deal with them and it's time consuming at best. 'It's supposed to be hard' is such a stupid knockout argument and again defending the flawed enemy scaling. I never even said anything about difficulty, yet you keep making things up for your argument's sake.

[IfritKajiTora]

From all the enemies Nultifiers are the worst. They don't look that bad, until YOU SEE ENTIRE ARMY OF NULTIFIERS ON THE MAP!!!
They are too common on higher levels, please just nerf their spawn rate. They should be a rare enemy from corpus faction.

The second I hate are Eximus that drains energy, but they are actually not THAT bad.

And Third are the Bombards with auto aim rockets and high fire status chance.

But if we meaning overall then just armor scalling is broken, there should be a cap on enemies like their armor cap on 5k armor.

Edited July 8, 2016 by IfritKajiTora

[MacabreHaze]

1 minute ago, LunarEdge7 said:

AH YES, the spawn rate. One thing we can all agree on.

Yeah. They wouldn't be as much of an annoyance if they didn't spawn faster than a boy band.

 

[Otaiken]

1 minute ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Volt, right?

3) Using Current Shield, march forward, squeeze into bubble with a slide attack (Elec Shield gets taken away from you since bubble), bullet jump the fack away afterwards to deal with remaining enemies.

4) Bullet jump on enemies inside bubble, they get staggered/stunned/slowed/panic (Unless Toxin/Puncture/Slash, do not use this tactic), then use that time to kill nullifier, jump right out to deal with the other enemies.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it leads into the afforementioned instant death. None of this smart "tactical" play is guaranteed or 100% predictable.

The bullet jump out thing? Several times I got shot out of the air and knocked down by a bombard in the bubble. I genuinely wanted to avoid the knockdown only to get smoked in the air and fall right in the convenient bludgeoning position (guess what happened after).

Sometimes slide attack works if the bombard is at the right spot, but often you don't get the right timing (especially since you can't see in the bubble very well) and you just get knocked down.

Jumping headfirst into the bubble. Yeah... you better hope the AoE is just right. At 20 minutes T4 (THAT early) one shotgunner could potentially kill you.

It's not like I'm dying to nullifiers left and right or something but when it does happen, ti really doesn't feel like I did much of anything wrong. The deaths are met with "Oh well, here we go again." Which isn't exactly an example of good design.

[OnTarasMind]

Here's my personal suggestion for making nullifiers a bit easier to deal with, while keeping the buff they got on this update(The Specters of the Rail main launch)

-Make the nullifier's bubble range a bit smaller. If the bubble is a bit smaller, there's more time that is had to counter said nulliffier.

-Make the bubble easier to destroy with non-automatic weapons. This is a change that will make it much easier on a lot of players who prefer running with single shot/shotguns, and they won't be punished as harshly for choosing said weapons.

-Perhaps the spawnrate of nullifiers could be toned down a bit too?(Edited in on edit two)

I'll probably add more suggestions here if I think of anything else. I'll be sure to mark them as edits.

EDIT ONE: Before some people start jumping on me and saying that I'm "complaining" about the nullifiers, I'm not actually complaining about them. The buffs given to the nullifiers made sense, and it honestly was a needed change. Besides, if I was complaining, I probably wouldn't be giving suggestions on how to balance the nullifiers a bit more, and I would probably be just saying something along the lines of "nullifiers are the worst thing in Warframe and they need to be nerfed because they ruin the game for me."

Edited July 8, 2016 by Zia_Avenicia

[DiosGX]

Only bad players complain about nullifiers. Bad players can go away. Don't care.

[Azrael]

6 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Volt, right?

3) Using Current Shield, march forward, squeeze into bubble with a slide attack (Elec Shield gets taken away from you since bubble), bullet jump the fack away afterwards to deal with remaining enemies.

4) Bullet jump on enemies inside bubble, they get staggered/stunned/slowed/panic (Unless Toxin/Puncture/Slash, do not use this tactic), then use that time to kill nullifier, jump right out to deal with the other enemies.

Oh, boy! Yet more people saying "duh just use melee". Now do mag!

 

15 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Dude, I'll give you real situations as well ok?

You play a squishy frame, perhaps even one that relies on abilities to survive.

You run the afforementioned Lex + Tigris. You encounter a Nullifier (that is if it's just one) with a bombard in the bubble. Would you consider it particularly rare combo? I wouldn't and if it isn't bombard it's heavy gunner. Oh or two shotgunners, those alone are perfectly capable of killing you in a second. And I'm not even talking really squishy frame, I'm talking like Volt which is somewhere in the middle.

So you run into the bubble, now you have 2 options:

1) Get knocked down and die. Which is what will happen unless you oneshot all threats in that bubble upon entry. 

2) You go the melee route and block the knockdown (if you don't you're dead). Well, now you have a real shot at surviving... one little story for ya though. I've been killed before during that delay which happens when you block knockdown. Didn't I feel like a right tosser, playing all smart and S#&$, blocking it and then dying anyway.

Now, at what point does this crazy stuff happen. T4 Wave 100? T4 Survival 60 minutes?

Nope, I've been one-shot at 20 minutes in T4 Sruvival (solo of course, you get ALL the aggro) exactly in this way. You enter the bubble and boom you're dead.

So it's spray primary/secondary for me! For eeeevery void mission. And switch to it every 10 seconds. I don't have any issues when I play my melee frames, but for fucks sake sometimes I would like to branch without getting punished for it.

Exactly. I've killed many, many nullifiers. I know how to kill them. I just want to be able to play ANY frame and use ANY weapon I feel like, without feeling like I'm using the wrong KIND of gear.

[LunarEdge7]

How about more suggestions like Zia_Avenicia's?

I'm curious with the ideas you guys come up with, and I'm bored waiting on the 4GB update atm.

My idea is to make punch through matter to the bubble, and make it based on health instead of number of hits.

[marelooke]

Having to re-apply a bunch of self-buffs each time you murder a nullifier (because slow fire weapons are useless against them, oh yeah, just use something else, amirite?) is just annoying. It' s not hard, it' s not challenging, it' s not fun, it' s annoying as hell.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, marelooke said:

Having to re-apply a bunch of self-buffs each time you murder a nullifier (because slow fire weapons are useless against them, oh yeah, just use something else, amirite?) is just annoying. It' s not hard, it' s not challenging, it' s not fun, it' s annoying as hell.

You have at max 4 skills. no Warframe has all 4 abilities give you a buff. What buffs are you applying again?

[LunarEdge7]

2 minutes ago, marelooke said:

Having to re-apply a bunch of self-buffs each time you murder a nullifier (because slow fire weapons are useless against them, oh yeah, just use something else, amirite?) is just annoying. It' s not hard, it' s not challenging, it' s not fun, it' s annoying as hell.

Yeah, that's the spawn rate problem I think.

[Otaiken]

7 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You have at max 4 skills. no Warframe has all 4 abilities give you a buff. What buffs are you applying again?

Well, Chroma has 2 at all times. Gets annoying to the point where I don't really bother with melee Chroma in void anymore.

The fact that you need to build one of the buffs up (only for it to get cancelled) doesn't help either.

Also, there comes a point in the game when you genuinely need to have Rage+Life Strike and hold channeling at all times with melee just to survive. At that point your buff getting stripped from you can mean the difference between life and death and it happened to me many times. Not being surrounded by enemies is actually more dangerous at those times than being surrounded by them so it's not like you can just get some distance, you will get killed instantly.

Edited July 8, 2016 by LocoWithGun

[MacabreHaze]

1 minute ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Yeah, that's the spawn rate problem I think.

Pretty much. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You have at max 4 skills. no Warframe has all 4 abilities give you a buff. What buffs are you applying again?

For me, with Inaros its that armor buff that eats through my Health. Then I have to find some other mooks to murderize to replenish my health. Once the spawn rate  gets too high (Which doesn't take long) I just say Clem-it and stop putting the buff on. 

[LunarEdge7]

9 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Oh, boy! Yet more people saying "duh just use melee". Now do mag!

Apologies, that's just the usual way of killing a nullifier. Hey, I want to change the bubble to offer more weapon freedom too.

Mag huh.. well I'd be lucky if there's an enemy near but outside a Nullifier's bubble, to Magnetize and kill that mofo as fast as I can.

I'm not sure how Polarize will be nullified by the Nullifier, but that could be used if the bubble only negates the Polarize effect on anyone inside his bubble.

Crush for.. holding up other enemies while your allies kill anything in the bubble.

Edited July 8, 2016 by LunarEdge7

[Bizzaro21]

6 hours ago, Tymerc said:

I enjoy Nullifiers because they counter mindless ability spam while also dealing out good damage. 

and they fked over single shot and long range abilities and are cheap in general, make them leave gun fire alone and i`ll love them too, until then, i hate them

[B0N3M4N]

I still don't see why do we have to live with these living anti-fun cancer on our game.

Comba and Scrambus have already been deployed many months ago, at this point why not removing the nullies and replacing them with those? At least I can do a run against corrupted/corpuses without being punished because I prefer single bullet weapons instead of Soma/Brotor master race.

[Railgun_Alter]

18 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Dude, I'll give you real situations as well ok?

You play a squishy frame, perhaps even one that relies on abilities to survive.

 

Do people really go into End-Tier missions with a squishy frame alone?

 

To be more specific : In this game, being majorly a Co-Op game, don't we have teammates to rely on? You usually go and PLAN with your team what is each one bringing into play, so even if I bring a squishy frame, or something that relies mostly on powers, we have other frames that can help me survive and also have specific roles. So then everyone gets a job to do, and there's no situation where I, a squishy/power-reliant frame, have to get out of my way to kill nullies, because another from the team took care of it

2 minutes ago, LunarEdge7 said:

Crush for.. holding up other enemies while your allies kill anything in the bubble.

This be a good example with Mag (pull might do too, I guess?)

[marelooke]

8 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You have at max 4 skills. no Warframe has all 4 abilities give you a buff. What buffs are you applying again?

Euhm, Mirage can have 3 up at once and *should* have two up at all times. Then as @MacabreHaze mentioned there's Inaros, where losing the Scarab Armor is rather a painful affair (especially given the number of nullifiers and that their bubbles happily ignore LoS and clip through floors, walls and ceilings and that they might just spawn on top of you, with the bubble already up, of course).

And for melee builds switching weapons to avoid entering the bubble means losing their Combo counter if they switch to another weapon, so you're kinda forced into the bubble. (or into playing other builds, which in itself is a problem. If a mecanics makes a whole slew of builds unusable then there's a problem imho)

Anyway the problem isn't just the act of rebuffing, the problem is how bloody often you have to it during a mission. For all I care make those abilities not work in the bubble, but don't take them off.

Edited July 8, 2016 by marelooke
typos

[Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Railgun_Alter said:

Do people really go into End-Tier missions with a squishy frame alone?

 

To be more specific : In this game, being majorly a Co-Op game, don't we have teammates to rely on?

So your answer is not to solo? I thought they didn't limit player choice?

[Otaiken]

Just now, Railgun_Alter said:

Do people really go into End-Tier missions with a squishy frame alone?

 

To be more specific : In this game, being majorly a Co-Op game, don't we have teammates to rely on? You usually go and PLAN with your team what is each one bringing into play, so even if I bring a squishy frame, or something that relies mostly on powers, we have other frames that can help me survive and also have specific roles. So then everyone gets a job to do, and there's no situation where I, a squishy/power-reliant frame, have to get out of my way to kill nullies, because another from the team took care of it

This be a good example with Mag (pull might do too, I guess?)

In high level teamplay everything is constantly locked down by either CC or lag. Only the host is really in any danger (as he doesn't lag as much).

Playing with all 4 players it's quite impossible to lose based on everyone dying. You can lose the objective but dying as a team? I've seen that like... 3 times? In 800+ hours playtime.

[LunarEdge7]

4 minutes ago, Railgun_Alter said:

Do people really go into End-Tier missions with a squishy frame alone?

 

To be more specific : In this game, being majorly a Co-Op game, don't we have teammates to rely on? You usually go and PLAN with your team what is each one bringing into play, so even if I bring a squishy frame, or something that relies mostly on powers, we have other frames that can help me survive and also have specific roles. So then everyone gets a job to do, and there's no situation where I, a squishy/power-reliant frame, have to get out of my way to kill nullies, because another from the team took care of it

This be a good example with Mag (pull might do too, I guess?)

THANK YOU. I ALSO FORGOT I HAVE TEAMMATES BECUZ OF A LOT OF PEOPLE. XD

Teamwork, man.

[Railgun_Alter]

Just now, Lord_Azrael said:

So your answer is not to solo? I thought they didn't limit player choice?

Then I'll ask you

Do you seriously bring a squishy frame to do, say, a T4 Survival 60 Minutes run all by yourself?
Cause I don't.