No Valk invincibility but Wukong is a-okay?

[Damageplay]

If you guys didn't want to make Valkyr the "invincible Warframe", then why does Wukong LITERALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO NOT DIE? It seems like Wukong's Defy and Primal Fury on at the same time will take less energy than Valkyr's 4 alone. There is no reason to user her now as you can just use Naramon with EB Excal or Wukong. 

[Brachion]

Defy quickly becomes far less useful at high levels since you'll be "dying" so fast that you'll run out of energy in seconds. In addition, without Defy, Wukong's fairly squishy, so he needs it to do any sort of tanking.

[Damageplay]

Just now, Brachion said:

Defy quickly becomes far less useful at high levels since you'll be "dying" so fast that you'll run out of energy in seconds. In addition, without Defy, Wukong's fairly squishy, so he needs it to do any sort of tanking.

When you use Defy, you get some invincibility time. You can use that to readjust yourself and get a second to breathe. That little bit of invincibility time is all he needs honestly. 

[Tsunero]

2 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Defy quickly becomes far less useful at high levels since you'll be "dying" so fast that you'll run out of energy in seconds. In addition, without Defy, Wukong's fairly squishy, so he needs it to do any sort of tanking.

Wukong isn't even a tank whereas Valkyr is, his invul is not justified.

[Damageplay]

1 minute ago, Momo93 said:

Wukong isn't even a tank whereas Valkyr is, his invul is not justified.

Valkyr is the "melee/berserker" frame yet they want you to NOT use her 4? wut

[Atreides.]

Valkyr has invincibility as long as her ability is up and its almost infamous, but Defy has time...and even if u collect energy each time  you defy death more energy is taken, plus Valkyrs the more popular of the two

[Ibro156]

6 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Defy quickly becomes far less useful at high levels since you'll be "dying" so fast that you'll run out of energy in seconds. In addition, without Defy, Wukong's fairly squishy, so he needs it to do any sort of tanking.

Plus, it takes up a mod slot to put in Rage mod to make it effective. Additionally, it uses up more energy longer it lasts. So you have to be careful with energy consumption. Even then, if you take more damage then you can handle. You can easily get one shotted. I played about this when T4 Survival keys were a thing. I did it solo, I managed to only last for 40 mins. Even then I had died 3 times because I was careless enough of not being careful when recasting Defy because how backlash I got when cancelling the ability.

1 minute ago, Damageplay said:

Valkyr is the "melee/berserker" frame yet they want you to NOT use her 4? wut

While Val had Primal Fury + Defy together. At the same time being completely immune from damaged and being really power efficient. There basically no risk but getting reaping all the reward.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Ibro156

[GreyEnneract]

2 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

Additionally, it uses up more energy longer it lasts.

Defy's energy drain does not ramp up like Hysteria's.

[FreezerFlare]

Wukong's entire kit is defy so.

RIP

[OzoneSlayer]

Well Ash can't die as long as you hit 4, especially with arcane trickery, and the ability(and augment) actually REWARDS spamming since it does more damage as you rack up the combo counter. I'd say that should take priority over wukong currently, like it already has

[Damageplay]

5 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

Plus, it takes up a mod slot to put in Rage mod to make it effective. Additionally, it uses up more energy longer it lasts. So you have to be careful with energy consumption. Even then, if you take more damage then you can handle. You can easily get one shotted. I played about this when T4 Survival keys were a thing. I did it solo, I managed to only last for 40 mins. Even then I had died 3 times because I was careless enough of not being careful when recasting Defy because how backlash I got when cancelling the ability.

While Val had Primal Fury + Defy together. At the same time being completely immune from damaged and being really power efficient. There basically no risk but getting reaping all the reward.

The drain is now too much to sustain. You can use Rage to get the energy back that you lose with Wukong. You can equip life strike on your melee weapon to get the health you lost back as you get damaged which gets you energy. This makes a endless cycle. The point is that there are better alternatives like Wukong and Excalibur who has exalted blade which allows him to do tons of damage from safe distances and can go invisible with Naramon AND can blind enemies opening them up to finishers. Why would you use her instead of the others?

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Defy quickly becomes far less useful at high levels since you'll be "dying" so fast that you'll run out of energy in seconds. In addition, without Defy, Wukong's fairly squishy, so he needs it to do any sort of tanking.

When you die you get invincibility for (on my build IIRC) about 12 seconds, this 12 seconds can be used to life strike an enemy causing you to reach full health, which will then be converted into energy with rage until you die again. Energy lost upon death is only 25% of the amount you currently have, unlike his health gain reduction which decreases each time he dies.

So er, nope. Defy is literally invincibility regardless of how much damage you take.

[Damageplay]

15 minutes ago, Brachion said:

 

Defy quickly becomes far less useful at high levels since you'll be "dying" so fast that you'll run out of energy in seconds. In addition, without Defy, Wukong's fairly squishy, so he needs it to do any sort of tanking.

 

Exactly. 

[Urlan]

10 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

When you die you get invincibility for (on my build IIRC) about 12 seconds, this 12 seconds can be used to life strike an enemy causing you to reach full health, which will then be converted into energy with rage until you die again. Energy lost upon death is only 25% of the amount you currently have, unlike his health gain reduction which decreases each time he dies.

So er, nope. Defy is literally invincibility regardless of how much damage you take.

One fun thing I have noticed when using Wukong is the interaction with Defy and damage overtime statuses. If the source of the damage over time is dead or gone and whatever, Defy will not trigger to save you.

[AurumandArgentum]

24 minutes ago, Damageplay said:

Valkyr is the "melee/berserker" frame yet they want you to NOT use her 4? wut

They want you to use her four, just not for a whole mission the entire damn time.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Hysteria was like flipping a switch for invincibility. Defy is like jamming your hand into the electrical box and crossing the wires. One clearly had more risk than the other.

[[DE]Momaw]

8 minutes ago, AurumandArgentum said:

They want you to use her four, just not for a whole mission the entire damn time.

Exactly this.

Both Warcry and Paralysis have really good performance if you actually build for and use them. Really the only Valkyr skill I don't like or use is Ripline.

[Damageplay]

-_- You activate Defy. You get energy as you take damage. You "die". You use life strike in the invincibility time. Get the lost health back. You party forever. What risk?

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Hysteria was like flipping a switch for invincibility. Defy is like jamming your hand into the electrical box and crossing the wires. One clearly had more risk than the other.

 

[Golmihr]

19 minutes ago, Momo93 said:

Wukong isn't even a tank whereas Valkyr is, his invul is not justified.

His passive, #1 and #4 are melee focused. He got no invisibility outside focus schools. He is modeled after the mythological monkey king Sun Wukong from Chinese mythology who were known as an immortal because of some fruit he ate.

 

Valkyr on the other hand is named after the maidens of the Norse god Odin, Valkyrie. Their job was to select those who had died in battle and take them to Valhall where they would be their lovers. I don't think they were famous for any particular fighting skills, unlike amazons.

 

All in all I think Wukong is more justified in being tanky.

[Damageplay]

3 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Exactly this.

Both Warcry and Paralysis have really good performance if you actually build for and use them. Really the only Valkyr skill I don't like or use is Ripline.

I can use Exalted Blade with Naramon forever and it practically makes me unkillable as I'm invisible for so long and I can be in Defy and Primal Fury forever. 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

1 minute ago, Damageplay said:

What risk?

Damage spikes are a thing. Where you're chillin at full health, then dead because people die when they are killed. It's also dependent on energy which can be sapped fairly quickly by any wandering nearby energy leeches and originally wouldn't effect you while in hysteria mode iirc.You also can't just stand around completely invincible for 10 minutes, another reason hysteria got reworked and defy remains untouched.

And invisibility is another beast all together. Can we keep our peas away from the mashed pertaters plz.

[Damageplay]

16 minutes ago, AurumandArgentum said:

They want you to use her four, just not for a whole mission the entire damn time.

When you activate and deactivate her 4 so much, you lose the combo multiplayer and the activation time in dire situations in too long. Adding a Natural Talent will effect the efficiency of her other abilities like Paralysis and Eternal War so it's pretty much just better to use a normal melee weapon with Eternal War instead of her 4 in which case, why would I not just use Volt with his speed increase with a melee weapon with Naramon? Or Excalibur with Naramon? Or EB Excal with Naramon?

[Alcatraz]

After reading every post to this point, I think I lost sight of what this topic was even about. All I am reading now is how good he is, or how bad he is. How good or how bad she is. What kind of crap post is this even? Hold on, let me go along to get along...

Obviously everyone is using the wrong build or something else( I.E lack of actual skill) because Valkyr you can stay in Hysteria long as you have energy. The faster you are, the faster your attacks, the more energy you get because you kill fast enough for drops. Sure you have to lose a lot of damage mods for her to stay in Hysteria but, the fact you stay in Hysteria a long time is what you should build for because your melee is built to kill right?

Wukong is the same way. Pair him with Arcane Grace for that health regen and you will never die, will always have energy. Long as you don't get your energy sucked by an eximus or disrupter ancients he too will not die. Valkyr is the exact same way with eximus and ancient disrupters.

Nullifers are bad on both as well. That's how you die aside from energy leechs.

Duration on Defy is 14s at max.

 

[Clem2-TheClemening]

Defy doesn't make Wukong immune to CC or procs. Including Magnetic procs, which stop defy entirely.

[chofranc]

1 hour ago, Damageplay said:

If you guys didn't want to make Valkyr the "invincible Warframe", then why does Wukong LITERALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO NOT DIE? It seems like Wukong's Defy and Primal Fury on at the same time will take less energy than Valkyr's 4 alone. There is no reason to user her now as you can just use Naramon with EB Excal or Wukong. 

There are difference in both, valkyr ulti before the change was press 4 to god mode without drawback meanwhile wukong was press defy and hope that you have enough energy to have a temporal god mode, defy works like quick thinking, at some point if you receive more damage than your energy can hold then you die.