The "Cheese" is Rotten

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

It's really starting to stink too. This is honestly just going to be a list of things I see in-game that are wrong with Warframe, and how I'd like them fixed, so, take everything with a grain of salt, and possibly add your own ideas to the list. With the addition of the Heliocor, while cool, the power-creep is just getting even worse, and after playing for a few hours today on top of that, every match pretty much going the same*, it's just pretty bad. This might sound like beating a dead horse, and I know it is, but until it's resolved people are going to keep beating that horse corpse even more. NOTE: This isn't about "endgame", low to mid game, or personal preference either, this is more about the longevity of Warframe as a whole, since that is really starting to come into question.

Ember - I love harping on this one (I really don't actually) but WoF. As some will remember, I had another thread about it, and all that amounted to was people crying that a "bad" ability would get even worse/ they'd have their power taken from them (Believe it or not damage 3.0 is gonna be a rude awakening for some, at least I hope so, 's why powercreep isn't on this list) Ember is a decent frame at low to mid game levels, and while there is no true "endgame" to Warframe right now, those complaints didn't fall on deaf ears. In general, the Heat proc needs a re-work first, or at least an addition so that heavy units are no longer able to do their ground pound anymore once they are on fire. Aside from that, I still call for damage fall off on WoF, with a 100% proc for Heat it'd still make good CC, and at low levels still kill enemies/ kill and cc at mid game.

Mirage - Mirage has always reminded me of Nyx and Loki, at least their essence in that she has two abilities from Nyx's back of tricks, and two from Loki's, in that she can cause chaos and disrupt the enemy. But really, what I want to talk about is HoM, and the epic OP cheese of it. In essence it makes sense, Mirage tricks the enemy so they don't know which one to shoot at, but why do they also do damage? That alone makes her way more powerful than most other frames if not all, and paired with a cheese wedge like the Synoid Simulor or any other power weapon it's just disgusting. I can already feel the S#&$storm forming, but remove the mirror images doing damage, it doesn't fit into her kit for one, or her overall theme, and two it makes her way too stronk, pretty much a "press 2 to win" frame. Like WoF, HoM removes all co-op from the game, and it enables lazy gameplay.

Synoid Simulor/Simulor - Urgh, this... It really just needs to go. Go as in removed from the game for good. Removed from the game for good as in removed from the game for good lol, it's very existence is everything I thought DE was trying not to have in their game. Aside from it looking like a crappy magic stick, this weapon has no downsides, it encourages lazy play, can nuke almost entire maps, does no self damage, the list goes on... if you thought the Tonkor or Penta were offensive, this weapon takes it to a whole new level, and it's Syndicate version gets even worse with the proc it has :D Look, I'm 100% for cool gimmicky weapons and different designs, but when something is soo blatantly OP like the SS (even without Mirage) something is definitely wrong. It pretty much trivializes everything, putting a MR 12 restriction on it is just a bandaid at best.

Blade Storm - Gonna be honest, never seen any problem with it, but if the majority of the community and even DE want to change it, so be it. This is less of a gripe, more of a suggestion. Making it a line of sight ability would be one way to fix it at least somewhat. I have read about some other cool suggestions, but that's about as much as I can think of that wouldn't make Ash lose any of his uber-cool ninja style.

Nullifiers - It's pretty self explanatory isn't it? Being able to completely dispel or nullify our powers makes sense on the Stalker/Shadow Stalker, he's a mysterious assassin Warframe looking mfer who hunts other Warframes, but given the Corpus that power? Not gonna lie, Nullifiers just feel like someone got butthurt at DE and decided to throw them in to spite every player. Cool enemy idea, but honestly they just break the flow of gameplay to the nth degree. Combas and Scrambus' make sense, they only block our power usage with their helmets by effectively jamming us, I could imagine the Corpus could develop something like that with basic Warframe knowledge gotten from Salad V through his research on Valkyr (poor thing) But to just straight cancel our powers and keep us from using them? We're supposed to be like gods pretty much, bending the fabric of reality to our whim with the power of the Void, so having such a jarring enemy that stands out like a sore thumb just screams bad enemy design. We all know that pretty much, so I wanted to suggest a change to them, instead of just scrapping them like the rest of the community wants. Instead of removing our buffs, Nullifiers should get a name change and a more defensive role on the battlefield, considering they use Lanka's that must have been the original idea right? Leave blocking our powers to Scrambus, Comba, and Isolator Bursas (Which also shouldn't cancel out things like Ironskin or Vex Armor, etc. btw) Make their shield permanent, increase their health, maybe even give them some sort of armor, maybe alloy, more likely ferrite because they occur early on, and then you have a brand new unit that can offer a shield to other Corpus nearby, firing out with their own Lanka Snipers.

I really love this game, and I hope only the best for it and DE, but there are still so many problems, bugs and such included, fixing them will take time, yes, but taking that time and diverting it to polishing this game instead of always pumping out something new, taking that time to look at old content and making sure it doesn't fall behind, that's what will keep this game alive. Remember folks, before you comment, take everything I suggested with a grain of salt and remember too that this is for the longevity of the game.

[Aimop95]

I'd imagine damage 3.0 should change the power creep, or at least curb it, that's the hope anyway.

As for nullies, I wouldn't mind if combas and scrambas were upgraded to have the nullies big obvious field (but you can shoot through it) so we could both hear and see them coming, and if these newly updated comba/scrambas replaced nullies completely.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

And here I thought we were going to discuss the subtle nuances between Limburger and Roquefort.

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

well, at least you did a better job than the other nerf-related threads we had recently. here's my take on this, (and like you said, take this with a grain of salt)

- Ember doesn't really need any more tweaking. Heat is only really effective against enemies with low or zero armour, and she pretty much needs Fire Quake in order to do anything helpful in endgame. she's a pure DPS caster, stuck between a Rock and a hard place; if she gets nerfed any more, she'll become trash, and if she gets buffed, she'll be treated as the new Old Saryn, with people spamming 4 like it's going out of fashion. best to just rework heat Procs overall like you said, and I agree that enemies shouldn't be ground slamming while on fire.

- Mirage already had her Cheesiest ability (Prism blind spam) nerfed to LoS only, and while HoM is still powerful, bear in mind that aside from Prism's initial Lasers (which take about a year to conjure up, even with Natural Talent), Hall of Mirrors is her only damaging skill; Sleight of hand requires environmental awareness and Eclipse is purely Defensive. taking away HoM's damage would completely destroy Mirage's DPS and consign her to trash-status for most. personally I'm not a fan of Mirage so I could care less.

-  Synoid Simulor is OP, yes, but then so are the Corpus once they hit level 100+. before that thing gets nerfed, let's look at why people started using it all the time in the first place. it was because it was the only weapon (or one of few) that could easily kill Corpus in Sorties, when they can still one-hit us with Sapping Ospreys, Nullifiers etc. once the Corpus are re-scaled, THEN we can look at nerfing the Simulor, but doing the latter right now would make Corpus Sorties even more unbearable for most, and would just push more players towards the Tonkor.

regarding Bladestorm:

17 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Gonna be honest, never seen any problem with it,

seriously? it's the most used P4TW skill out there right now. this makes me wonder if your actually a Bladestorm spammer trying to cover your rear end. that said, I think Ash just needs the same fix that Mesa got; manual targeting for his Ult. have the player mark Targets for Bladestorm themselves, allowing them to prioritize and press multiple buttons rather than just pressing one. Ash will still be effective without encouraging half-assed play.

- Nullifiers should just be scrapped altogether. the sole purpose of their creation was to counter our(at the time) OP abilities. this was back in the day of Saryn clearing rooms, Trinity making people invincible et. but those days are gone now, so why have Nullies been allowed to stay? they were a Band-Aid fix for an old problem that's mostly solved now, let's just keep Bursas and Combas and do away with the stupid bubbles. it also makes no sense from a Lore perspective, as Void Energy is supposed to be a mysterious force that nobody, not even the Tenno, really know much about. maybe the Orokin did, but they're all dead so we can't really ask them. so if nothing is known about how Void Energy works, how could the Corpus think of, much less create a method to counter it? Nullies have long outstayed their welcome, and I'm hoping that with upcoming changes, DE will eventually consider getting rid of them entirely once they have balanced every frame the way they want.

[at35z]

Here's my story:

I started when the Open Beta started. Many years ago. Just like everyone else, I also wanted to have the gear that deals the most damage. But back then, I also wanted to build my favorite stuff first. Frost and Nyx. Then Frost Prime and the other Prime gear. Didn't matter if they were bad at all, they were mysterious, the very first Prime items available for everyone.

Then, a lot of real-life stuff came in and I couldn't play, and now I do again. After 1,5k+ hours and ~1 year of resting, I play the game again.

And guess what - I realized that this entire "power-creep" is B.U.L.L.C.R.A.P. Not fun at all. And the only ones preventing us from using "not-OP" weapons are us. No one else. When I came back, I added 4 Formas into my new Dera Vandal and a couple to my Dual Kamas Prime, I don't even care if they can't kill level 90+ enemies, they are frickin' FUN to use. If you only have a Boltor Prime, a War and a Lex Prime in your inventory, you're doing it all wrong. Yes. Have some equipment for high level enemies, but don't use them 0-24 because it will be BORING, and some people just go complain on forums and reddit, while the problem is with their playstyle only. This is just another RPG game. Of course a "Magical Legendary Sword of Demonic Eternity - level 999" will do more damage than a "Wooden Stick - level 9", but you need to know how to use both. Have some fun weapons that you use when you just play for fun, and don't do anything "serious" or high-level. This is all I have to say about that.

Mirage - Why don't I see Mirages in every one of my games then? What? She might have a downside? Aaaah, yes. So that could be it.

Simulor - It's really not that bad. Another explosive weapon. With loot siphon. Loot siphon is not OP at all. The same damage can be done with Penta or Tonkor or whatever.

Nullifiers - Combas are 200% worse. You can't foresee which type is coming, since there are many, you can't see the range, you can't prepare for which of your abilities will be nullified. Yet all of you complain about a poor little guy who has a GIANT BLUE BUBBLE, which can be popped (though this one is hard with Snipers and stuff, this is true), easy to see, easy to kill. Your abilities are still useful for the rest of the enemy group, and the bubble is really not that big.

[FreezerFlare]

Mirages 1 is meant to buff up her weapons. Don't get mad over a good combo, all games have them. Besides she only has 3 abilities so one of them should be really good.

The Synoid Simulor is also fine. it's supposed to do massive damage when the vortex's are created, mirage creates more spheres so more get created = more damage. It's smart thinking of the player base and nerfing it is just ruining creativity. (I only use SS + Mirage Combo on Sortie Exterminates anyways)

Just because a weapon/frame are doing their job. doesn't mean it's cheese.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Alenkj

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 minutes ago, at35z said:

the bubble is really not that big.

on the Outpost Tilesets in the outdoor areas sure, but they can take up entire corridors on ships and indoor areas. and they LOVE to stand in the way of where you want to go on a stealth run. regarding Combas, they really aren't worse, because all you have to do is check which of your abilities works, which requires moving your eyes to the bottom of the screen for half a second, not exactly hard work really. you can also just headshot them to remove their helmet, then they just act like a more annoying Crewman.

both have their annoyances, but Combas are more balanced than Nullifiers. I suppose we have different ideas of balance, but Combas are far less cheesy than nullies IMO.

[LethalAffliction]

Ember was left untouched by players for years until, what, 6-9 months ago when her WoF changed from a timed ability that had to be cast every 15 seconds to the duration ability that it is now. The damage is quite miniscule to the point where you won't ever see her in sorties or any really challenging mission. Sure she wrecks the star chart but even her description says that she's a nightmare for light armored targets so it's doing as intended in my opinion which is killing low level trash mobs quickly and efficiently.

Mirage has been nerfed time and time again. Her disco ball is now LoS for one and her HoM used to each shoot a projectile at 100% normal strength of damage. Since then her HoM has been nerfed in that less # of projectiles are fired and that her clones deal fraction of the normal damage. She's also incredibly squishy and her clones don't provide any sort of protection in my experiences like you claim they do.

Synoid Simulor is strong, but so is the Tonkor, Penta, Vaykor Hek, Soma, Opticor, Dread, Amprex and the list goes on. It also requires shooting 4 shots out of a 15 magazine to form a vortex to deal any real damage which means you spend more time reloading then obliterating really. Not to mention that the reason the simulor was so strong was because of the auto-headshot proc from any location when it comes to explosions which was hotfixed recently. Every gun has it's purpose. I don't take simulor to kill the boss in LoR because the damage is miniscule compared to the Vaykor Hek. The Vaykor Hek can easily down bosses in 1 shot to at least a clip with ease but the only reason people target the simulor, tonkor, or explosives is because it can kill more then one enemy at a time in my opinion.

You never found a problem with blade storm? The ability with ridiculous base damage where you can kill level 120 enemies with no strength mods on top of an extended invulnerability cinematic where you can both recharge shields and replenish energy while at the same time looting the enemies you kill including energy orbs while you warp around killing enemies map wide and then just press 4 again from all the energy you just gained to do it all again? Yeah, totally not biased opinions here anywhere.

You are targeting the things that you see in star charts and that is your basis for this thread, I'm sure of it. You probably do a mission like a void fissure mission and you see a lot of embers WoF nuking stuff or mirage HoM synoid simulors going to town but you have yet to experience the rest of the game to learn the flaws of their designs or where that stuff falls off and becomes useless. If you lower ember's WoF damage more it will just make her unplayable since she's nowhere near end game as is.

If you had played other missions your response would've been more diverse. You would've seen EV trinity giving infinite energy so frames can go to power spammy mchappy town forever or frost completely locking down maps with duration avalanche abilities or spore saryn completely spawn killing map-wide.

TL;DR every frame has a purpose. Just because a frame does something good doesn't mean it qualifies to be nerfed further. Learn where a frame excels and learn where it falls off or else we will all be rolling around with rhinos Iron Skin pew-pewing enemies one at a time.

Edited July 29, 2016 by LethalAffliction

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, at35z said:

And guess what - I realized that this entire "power-creep" is B.U.L.L.C.R.A.P. Not fun at all. And the only ones preventing us from using "not-OP" weapons are us. No one else. When I came back, I added 4 Formas into my new Dera Vandal and a couple to my Dual Kamas Prime, I don't even care if they can't kill level 90+ enemies, they are frickin' FUN to use. If you only have a Boltor Prime, a War and a Lex Prime in your inventory, you're doing it all wrong. Yes. Have some equipment for high level enemies, but don't use them 0-24 because it will be BORING, and some people just go complain on forums and reddit, while the problem is with their playstyle only. This is just another RPG game. Of course a "Magical Legendary Sword of Demonic Eternity - level 999" will do more damage than a "Wooden Stick - level 9", but you need to know how to use both. Have some fun weapons that you use when you just play for fun, and don't do anything "serious" or high-level. This is all I have to say about that.

Mirage - Why don't I see Mirages in every one of my games then? What? She might have a downside? Aaaah, yes. So that could be it.

Simulor - It's really not that bad. Another explosive weapon. With loot siphon. Loot siphon is not OP at all. The same damage can be done with Penta or Tonkor or whatever.

Nullifiers - Combas are 200% worse. You can't foresee which type is coming, since there are many, you can't see the range, you can't prepare for which of your abilities will be nullified. Yet all of you complain about a poor little guy who has a GIANT BLUE BUBBLE, which can be popped (though this one is hard with Snipers and stuff, this is true), easy to see, easy to kill. Your abilities are still useful for the rest of the enemy group, and the bubble is really not that big.

I agree with every point that you made.  Especially about the Combas being 200% worse and "power-creep".  

[PoobahTheGrand]

Lmao. Ironically I just knew somebody would make a thread about Cheesing today on my way too work (Wake up 3am for this summer job). I must be psychic.

 

Now let's look at your oh so special cheese thread. Nope. I'm not reading that. Just looking at the first few sentences of your first two examples you gave that wall of complaint is not worth reading. Nothing special about this thread folks. Just another player crying about every little detail that makes a frame actually viable against these terrible scaled enemies.

I decided to skim anyway, but I regret not following my gut because you see no problem with BLADE STORM, an ability that can kill lvl 100+ enemies with NEGATIVE strength (mine is at 20%) and not only that, but can attack a single target with its high as hell base damage up to 17 times???? But you complain about WoF and HoM? 

 

And I'm so tired of players talking about cheese tactics being boring. Look at @at35z post. What gives you the right to tell someone what's boring from what's not? If they enjoy playing a certain way, who are you to tell them they're wrong for it? Elitists these days, I swear...

 

I have no problems with reworks to OP abilities and gear, and agree games need balance, but I also wouldn't have a problem with them being there either. Don't like don't use it. Don't like someone else using play solo. Why do you care what someone else is using? Worry about yourself. Too busy worrying about that Ash stealing your kills to have the sense to actually get out of his abilities range. Not wanting someone to use certain tactics is the opposite but equally as bad as "H Draco LF  EV ROAR RADIAL JAVELIN FF ONLY!". 

The problem here is that for some reason people believe Warframe has the potential to be the most perfectly balanced game ever. If you ever played a game besides warframe, you know every game needs a hierarchy. Look how long the game has been out. Look how long the repeated cycle of releasing something OP, nerfing it, only to release something else OP has been going on. Take Tigris Prime for example. Sure, we have no idea how it's gonna compare to the Sancti Tigris. Maybe it's another straight buff, maybe it's a side grade like the Vaykor Hek to the hek. But no matter what it is, no matter how big or small, it will no doubt be better in than the Sancti Tigris. Vaykor Hek and Hek is my prime (hehe see what I did there) example. People say Vaukor Hek needs a buff and it's only a side grade, but in reality based on everything I read and watched regarding the two, the Vaykor Hek is better. People just don't like to admit it because of the resources (2 rank 9-10 primed mods) and that its damage crit based. Meanwhile you can just slap a scattered justice on there, and it won't be as strong, but comes close to the Vaykor Hek. And why would anyone waste time getting the Tigris a Prime, when the Sancti Tigris still looks sexy and had the syndicate effect. I believe it will be similar to the Boltor series. 

You want DE to end the "power creep" but seem to ignore that they are the very ones creating that "power creep".

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by PoobahTheGrand

[catastrophy]

Some call it rotten, others think it's the finest cheese in the world.

[cosen432]

this kinda stuff is whats actually ruining the game some find all the cheese as you call it fun some dont those that dont can simply avoid the ones who do 

there only needs to be balance not frames and weapons being nerfed to the point there warthless

Edited July 29, 2016 by cosen432

[VCaptiion]

yeah thanks to those who crying for challenge contents on forums all over the time, all the players are forced to face these disgusting additions.

Especially the game-breaking Eximus, Ancients, Nullifiers or tons of things you can't even damage them... which makes whole Damage 2.0 system stupid and useless. No matter what you are a veteran or a noob, people today are only aimed for highest damage to kill enemy in seconds, while other weapons are thrown into garbage-tier, collecting dust, applying the term 'mastery fodder' and let them rot.

Edited July 29, 2016 by VCaptiion

[Xgomme]

Press 2 to win, with Mirage ?

[TaylorsContraction]

Let heat proc in addition to damage strip a percentage of enemy armor (slowly melting it away). Maybe 2-5% / tick. Typical heat proc is 6 second I think, so one proc would remove 12-30% of an enemy's armor. Furthermore each tick should increase fire damage by 1%. Killing enemies with procs is slow so I don't think this would be op at all.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

7 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

And here I thought we were going to discuss the subtle nuances between Limburger and Roquefort.

 

We can still do that?

7 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

well, at least you did a better job than the other nerf-related threads we had recently. here's my take on this, (and like you said, take this with a grain of salt)

- Ember doesn't really need any more tweaking. Heat is only really effective against enemies with low or zero armour, and she pretty much needs Fire Quake in order to do anything helpful in endgame. she's a pure DPS caster, stuck between a Rock and a hard place; if she gets nerfed any more, she'll become trash, and if she gets buffed, she'll be treated as the new Old Saryn, with people spamming 4 like it's going out of fashion. best to just rework heat Procs overall like you said, and I agree that enemies shouldn't be ground slamming while on fire.

- Mirage already had her Cheesiest ability (Prism blind spam) nerfed to LoS only, and while HoM is still powerful, bear in mind that aside from Prism's initial Lasers (which take about a year to conjure up, even with Natural Talent), Hall of Mirrors is her only damaging skill; Sleight of hand requires environmental awareness and Eclipse is purely Defensive. taking away HoM's damage would completely destroy Mirage's DPS and consign her to trash-status for most. personally I'm not a fan of Mirage so I could care less.

-  Synoid Simulor is OP, yes, but then so are the Corpus once they hit level 100+. before that thing gets nerfed, let's look at why people started using it all the time in the first place. it was because it was the only weapon (or one of few) that could easily kill Corpus in Sorties, when they can still one-hit us with Sapping Ospreys, Nullifiers etc. once the Corpus are re-scaled, THEN we can look at nerfing the Simulor, but doing the latter right now would make Corpus Sorties even more unbearable for most, and would just push more players towards the Tonkor.

regarding Bladestorm:

seriously? it's the most used P4TW skill out there right now. this makes me wonder if your actually a Bladestorm spammer trying to cover your rear end. that said, I think Ash just needs the same fix that Mesa got; manual targeting for his Ult. have the player mark Targets for Bladestorm themselves, allowing them to prioritize and press multiple buttons rather than just pressing one. Ash will still be effective without encouraging half-assed play.

- Nullifiers should just be scrapped altogether. the sole purpose of their creation was to counter our(at the time) OP abilities. this was back in the day of Saryn clearing rooms, Trinity making people invincible et. but those days are gone now, so why have Nullies been allowed to stay? they were a Band-Aid fix for an old problem that's mostly solved now, let's just keep Bursas and Combas and do away with the stupid bubbles. it also makes no sense from a Lore perspective, as Void Energy is supposed to be a mysterious force that nobody, not even the Tenno, really know much about. maybe the Orokin did, but they're all dead so we can't really ask them. so if nothing is known about how Void Energy works, how could the Corpus think of, much less create a method to counter it? Nullies have long outstayed their welcome, and I'm hoping that with upcoming changes, DE will eventually consider getting rid of them entirely once they have balanced every frame the way they want.

I keep suggesting a tweak to WoF because we can't change players, they are the real problem here for her. I'm gonna say the same thing I said in my other thread about it, but what the hell am I or the other two players going to do if a $&*^bag decides to pop WoF in an Infestation Invasion and just runs ahead? Those players don't just ruin the team experience, they also steal affinity and sap all the fun from a mission when it turns into running simulator. Everyone keeps acting like even the smallest change would ruin Ember, and honestly, I've heard it enough times to just say "git gud" with her. If I can survive with Ember hardly even touching WoF, then so should everyone else.

Yet fixing HoM is still necessary. If DE made her other abilities (Aside from Prism, which is good as is right now) stronger, the people left who complain are the kind who can't adapt, Mirage really isn't a DPS themed frame, she's a mix of Nyx and Loki (Nokix) who gets off on tricking the enemy to their demise.

Seriously? Yeah seriously I have no qualms with Bladestorm, maybe my play experience might be different than yours? I do play on console, and I hardly see anyone play Ash or Ash Prime, they're kinda few and far in-between. And when I play Ash, I hardly use Bladestorm, he has 3 other super satisfying abilities to use as well. Funny enough aside from Rhino, Mag, and Oberon I actually hardly use any ult's

7 hours ago, at35z said:

Here's my story:

I started when the Open Beta started. Many years ago. Just like everyone else, I also wanted to have the gear that deals the most damage. But back then, I also wanted to build my favorite stuff first. Frost and Nyx. Then Frost Prime and the other Prime gear. Didn't matter if they were bad at all, they were mysterious, the very first Prime items available for everyone.

Then, a lot of real-life stuff came in and I couldn't play, and now I do again. After 1,5k+ hours and ~1 year of resting, I play the game again.

And guess what - I realized that this entire "power-creep" is B.U.L.L.C.R.A.P. Not fun at all. And the only ones preventing us from using "not-OP" weapons are us. No one else. When I came back, I added 4 Formas into my new Dera Vandal and a couple to my Dual Kamas Prime, I don't even care if they can't kill level 90+ enemies, they are frickin' FUN to use. If you only have a Boltor Prime, a War and a Lex Prime in your inventory, you're doing it all wrong. Yes. Have some equipment for high level enemies, but don't use them 0-24 because it will be BORING, and some people just go complain on forums and reddit, while the problem is with their playstyle only. This is just another RPG game. Of course a "Magical Legendary Sword of Demonic Eternity - level 999" will do more damage than a "Wooden Stick - level 9", but you need to know how to use both. Have some fun weapons that you use when you just play for fun, and don't do anything "serious" or high-level. This is all I have to say about that.

Mirage - Why don't I see Mirages in every one of my games then? What? She might have a downside? Aaaah, yes. So that could be it.

Simulor - It's really not that bad. Another explosive weapon. With loot siphon. Loot siphon is not OP at all. The same damage can be done with Penta or Tonkor or whatever.

Nullifiers - Combas are 200% worse. You can't foresee which type is coming, since there are many, you can't see the range, you can't prepare for which of your abilities will be nullified. Yet all of you complain about a poor little guy who has a GIANT BLUE BUBBLE, which can be popped (though this one is hard with Snipers and stuff, this is true), easy to see, easy to kill. Your abilities are still useful for the rest of the enemy group, and the bubble is really not that big.

, Actually, Simulor is way easier to spam and has a much higher kill rate, even on missed shots. Pair that with a Mirage and boom, it's as bad as some $&*^bag running ahead with WoF...

And lastly, Combas, while being harder to kill, are balanced better

7 hours ago, Alenkj said:

Mirages 1 is meant to buff up her weapons. Don't get mad over a good combo, all games have them. Besides she only has 3 abilities so one of them should be really good.

The Synoid Simulor is also fine. it's supposed to do massive damage when the vortex's are created, mirage creates more spheres so more get created = more damage. It's smart thinking of the player base and nerfing it is just ruining creativity. (I only use SS + Mirage Combo on Sortie Exterminates anyways)

Just because a weapon/frame are doing their job. doesn't mean it's cheese.

I think you mean to say her 1 turns her into a firing squad? Mods buff up weapons, her 1 is OP as hell with the right weapons, which btw, the entire community can easily get. There's no creativity in that.

7 hours ago, LethalAffliction said:

Ember was left untouched by players for years until, what, 6-9 months ago when her WoF changed from a timed ability that had to be cast every 15 seconds to the duration ability that it is now. The damage is quite miniscule to the point where you won't ever see her in sorties or any really challenging mission. Sure she wrecks the star chart but even her description says that she's a nightmare for light armored targets so it's doing as intended in my opinion which is killing low level trash mobs quickly and efficiently.

Mirage has been nerfed time and time again. Her disco ball is now LoS for one and her HoM used to each shoot a projectile at 100% normal strength of damage. Since then her HoM has been nerfed in that less # of projectiles are fired and that her clones deal fraction of the normal damage. She's also incredibly squishy and her clones don't provide any sort of protection in my experiences like you claim they do.

Synoid Simulor is strong, but so is the Tonkor, Penta, Vaykor Hek, Soma, Opticor, Dread, Amprex and the list goes on. It also requires shooting 4 shots out of a 15 magazine to form a vortex to deal any real damage which means you spend more time reloading then obliterating really. Not to mention that the reason the simulor was so strong was because of the auto-headshot proc from any location when it comes to explosions which was hotfixed recently. Every gun has it's purpose. I don't take simulor to kill the boss in LoR because the damage is miniscule compared to the Vaykor Hek. The Vaykor Hek can easily down bosses in 1 shot to at least a clip with ease but the only reason people target the simulor, tonkor, or explosives is because it can kill more then one enemy at a time in my opinion.

You never found a problem with blade storm? The ability with ridiculous base damage where you can kill level 120 enemies with no strength mods on top of an extended invulnerability cinematic where you can both recharge shields and replenish energy while at the same time looting the enemies you kill including energy orbs while you warp around killing enemies map wide and then just press 4 again from all the energy you just gained to do it all again? Yeah, totally not biased opinions here anywhere.

You are targeting the things that you see in star charts and that is your basis for this thread, I'm sure of it. You probably do a mission like a void fissure mission and you see a lot of embers WoF nuking stuff or mirage HoM synoid simulors going to town but you have yet to experience the rest of the game to learn the flaws of their designs or where that stuff falls off and becomes useless. If you lower ember's WoF damage more it will just make her unplayable since she's nowhere near end game as is.

If you had played other missions your response would've been more diverse. You would've seen EV trinity giving infinite energy so frames can go to power spammy mchappy town forever or frost completely locking down maps with duration avalanche abilities or spore saryn completely spawn killing map-wide.

TL;DR every frame has a purpose. Just because a frame does something good doesn't mean it qualifies to be nerfed further. Learn where a frame excels and learn where it falls off or else we will all be rolling around with rhinos Iron Skin pew-pewing enemies one at a time.

- Actually enemies shoot at the clones too

- Bladestorm does finisher damage, which ignores armor. (It's getting a change anyway, so..)

- Yeah, thread is based on the Starchart, because that's where, you know, most of the game is? Warframe has no true "endgame" atm, and endless missions get boring after wave 15/ 20 minutes (At least for me) And since we can't change how players behave, that'd be like talking to a wall, we need to change their tools. Everyone just seems to be unable to accept change that'll make the game fair for everyone.

4 hours ago, PoobahTheGrand said:

Lmao. Ironically I just knew somebody would make a thread about Cheesing today on my way too work (Wake up 3am for this summer job). I must be psychic.

 

Now let's look at your oh so special cheese thread. Nope. I'm not reading that. Just looking at the first few sentences of your first two examples you gave that wall of complaint is not worth reading. Nothing special about this thread folks. Just another player crying about every little detail that makes a frame actually viable against these terrible scaled enemies.

I decided to skim anyway, but I regret not following my gut because you see no problem with BLADE STORM, an ability that can kill lvl 100+ enemies with NEGATIVE strength (mine is at 20%) and not only that, but can attack a single target with its high as hell base damage up to 17 times???? But you complain about WoF and HoM? 

 

And I'm so tired of players talking about cheese tactics being boring. Look at @at35z post. What gives you the right to tell someone what's boring from what's not? If they enjoy playing a certain way, who are you to tell them they're wrong for it? Elitists these days, I swear...

 

I have no problems with reworks to OP abilities and gear, and agree games need balance, but I also wouldn't have a problem with them being there either. Don't like don't use it. Don't like someone else using play solo. Why do you care what someone else is using? Worry about yourself. Too busy worrying about that Ash stealing your kills to have the sense to actually get out of his abilities range. Not wanting someone to use certain tactics is the opposite but equally as bad as "H Draco LF  EV ROAR RADIAL JAVELIN FF ONLY!". 

The problem here is that for some reason people believe Warframe has the potential to be the most perfectly balanced game ever. If you ever played a game besides warframe, you know every game needs a hierarchy. Look how long the game has been out. Look how long the repeated cycle of releasing something OP, needing new it, only to release something else OP has been going on. Take Tigris Prime for example. Sure, we have no idea how it's gonna compare to the Sancti Tigris. Maybe it's another straight buff, maybe it's a side grade like the Vaykor Hek to the hek. But no matter what it is, no matter how big or small, it will no doubt be better in than the Sancti Tigris. Vaykor Hek and Hek is my prime (hehe see what I did there) example. People say Vaukor Hek needs a buff and it's only a side grade, but in reality based on everything I read and watched regarding the two, the Vaykor Hek is better. People just don't like to admit it because of the resources (2 rank 9-10 primed mods) and that its damage crit based. Meanwhile you can just slap a scattered justice on there, and it won't be as strong, but comes close to the Vaykor Hek. And why would anyone waste time getting the Tigris a Prime, when the Sancti Tigris still looks sexy and had the syndicate effect. I believe it will be similar to the Boltor series. 

You want DE to end the "power creep" but seem to ignore that they are the very ones creating that "power creep".

 

 

 

50/50 meh read, skimmed most of it too. You have valid points, but I'll state it again, since players don't change, change their tools. And if they can't adapt, they deserve to fall off. Warfrmae can actually be a really balanced game, and really it doesn't even take that much to get their, you just need to be less cynical friendo

Edited July 29, 2016 by 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4

[yakri]

Is this a troll thread? This is a troll thread right. No way is this real.

[SwingKitty]

Bladestorm doesn't need changes.....

Ash main confirmed

No seriously though that ability( especially the whole making its targets invincible) often makes sorties infuriating when some1 brings an ash. A few suggestions on changes:

1. Change it from finisher to slash, the ability already has the bleed damage but having the main bulk of the damage ignore armor and shields makes this thing virtually infinitely scaling, or at least to the point where is almost makes no difference, sorties, the entire star chart, all of the enemies on these are effectively insta-killed by ash with no problem at all. Removing the ability to almost completely ignore enemy scaling is frankly the least that should be done.

2. Bladestorm 1.0 No seriously change it back, remove the clones , this would fix so much, less constant kill sniping with that finisher invincibility, spamming becomes slower and makes the ability less effective meaning teammates can now actually consistently get kills. Not only this but slowing bladestorm down might force ash players to actually use their weapons and other abilities to kill of enemies faster than bladestorm  can. This would round off the character to a degree that would actually require a semi-decent amount of player input. Ash's other abilties and augments are plenty strong but there is currently no incentive for any1 to use them.

Either both or just one of these changes would be fairly easy to implement (probably) and make a huge quality of life change to the game.

Nullifiers

Yeh nullies just suck, the corpus have plenty of strong units without them, i could get behind just removing them from  the game altogether, lets be honest the main cheese problem b4 they were introduced was the shield polarize spam (yes a lot of things were a bit op, but that one was an infinate scaling insta-kill everything in range). Thats been fixed now and i really dont think we need them any more.

But at the very least a nice change to them just as a balance would be to just remove their shields ability to regenerate. Simple, and would do a lot to make em more manageable.

Synoid simulator 

Already nerfed a little to make it require more orbs to detonate but that didn't do much. This one needs to be handled with care as not to become a repeat of what happened to the synoid gammacore. I'm not really certain that this needs a nerf but lets look at a possible change anyway.

Possible fix, make it a charge weapon, instead of requiring a number of orbs to create a detonation make it a charge (a short 1, maybe 2 secs or less total) that when held to max fires an orb that will detonate by itself after going a few meters. Orbs would still combine and a half charge would fire incomplete orbs that would combine just like they do now. What this would do would be not a damage nerf but a slight (hopefully) reduction in the movement speed of a player (especially a mirage) using the gun, making it still effective but allowing allies a better chance of getting their own in. This would effect mirage players using the weapon and reduce what is seen as a little op, while not adversely effecting non mirage users 2 much like many simulator reworks would.

Im not entirely sure this would work as intended its just a theory, but it might be worth looking into.

[DSpite]

On 29/07/2016 at 5:19 PM, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

- Nullifiers should just be scrapped altogether. the sole purpose of their creation was to counter our(at the time) OP abilities. this was back in the day of Saryn clearing rooms, Trinity making people invincible et. but those days are gone now, so why have Nullies been allowed to stay? they were a Band-Aid fix for an old problem that's mostly solved now, let's just keep Bursas and Combas and do away with the stupid bubbles. it also makes no sense from a Lore perspective, as Void Energy is supposed to be a mysterious force that nobody, not even the Tenno, really know much about. maybe the Orokin did, but they're all dead so we can't really ask them. so if nothing is known about how Void Energy works, how could the Corpus think of, much less create a method to counter it? Nullies have long outstayed their welcome, and I'm hoping that with upcoming changes, DE will eventually consider getting rid of them entirely once they have balanced every frame the way they want.

All DE would have to do to keep it Lore viable is once they "balance" the game a little more so that we have really removed anything that the game logs on their server states is being spammed 10x more then anything else in the game, is create a Tactical Alert where all the Tenno do a surgical strike on the research facilities that worked on Nullifiers, steal the research tech, burn everything to the ground while there, and then reverse engineer Nullifier Tech to either stop effecting us, or only effect us is a much different "more balanced" way.

 

[Kletse]

So, you're started to play this game. Found out there's a lot of stuff you don-t like and want the devs to change the game.  Normal people will look for another game, but nooo. Present day it's normal to people that the world bends to their likings before they are looking to themselves.

And for the durability of this game, i play it for 2 years now. No other game accomplished that. It's fine.

[Voltage]

I can see where ur coming from with mirage but she has been nerfed 2 times already. She does good damage, but I have 4 forma and arcane into her (now removed because simulor/Ignis/Amprex can't proc victory)

Edited July 30, 2016 by -Voltage-

[Thaumatos]

Honestly I feel that the biggest complaint about nullifiers is that they make people think in a game where most things require no thought at all.

Combat in Warframe requires exactly 0 strategy...which is why people go on 2 hour survival missions.  The only time you'll ever have to pay attention to what you're fighting is when it can one-shot you.  That's a bad situation to put your players in as it breeds a sense of OP requirement.  Don't believe me?  Look at people defending the OP gear...they're comparing it to level 100+ targets.  None of those are balanced.

The reason why non-OP weapons and frames are fun to use is because they don't trivialize non-OP content (and there's a LOT of non-OP content).  In that regard, they actually slow the pace of the game down so you can appreciate the aesthetics of where you are, your gear, and the differences in the targets you fight.  Not all gamers want to be SSJ17 Goku fighting a normal human being from Earth.  We all like a sense of being powerful, but most of us would like it to be within reason to the game's structure.

That being said, nullifiers do play favorites in terms of gear.  I believe there should be a strategy for any weapon/frame to defeat them effectively enough that you don't feel gimped when one shows up because you brought 'x' instead of 'y'.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Thaumatos

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

6 hours ago, BucketofsandtheTHird said:

Bladestorm doesn't need changes.....

Ash main confirmed

Nice assumption bud, I have 10 frames I use plus Ash, I don't main anything. Aside from DE wanting to make Bladestorm more interactive, which I have no problem with, personally, as someone who hardly uses it unless I'm solo-ing against a huge group of enemies, or a huge group in general, I've never run into a problem with it. Most of the time I don't even use it as Ash, other people in missions I play hardly use it (When they do on some occasions I usually just run past and kill elsewhere) You know what they say about assumptions. There's a lot of personal bias toward Bladestorm for me, but only because I haven't ever been in a scenario where it's been abused

5 hours ago, Kletse said:

So, you're started to play this game. Found out there's a lot of stuff you don-t like and want the devs to change the game.  Normal people will look for another game, but nooo. Present day it's normal to people that the world bends to their likings before they are looking to themselves.

And for the durability of this game, i play it for 2 years now. No other game accomplished that. It's fine.

I've been playing for a year and a half now, what's listed are obvious problems, if you haven't noticed them after two years of playing (which I doubt) you should get your eyes checked.

3 hours ago, Thaumatos said:

Honestly I feel that the biggest complaint about nullifiers is that they make people think in a game where most things require no thought at all.

Combat in Warframe requires exactly 0 strategy...which is why people go on 2 hour survival missions.  The only time you'll ever have to pay attention to what you're fighting is when it can one-shot you.  That's a bad situation to put your players in as it breeds a sense of OP requirement.  Don't believe me?  Look at people defending the OP gear...they're comparing it to level 100+ targets.  None of those are balanced.

The reason why non-OP weapons and frames are fun to use is because they don't trivialize non-OP content (and there's a LOT of non-OP content).  In that regard, they actually slow the pace of the game down so you can appreciate the aesthetics of where you are, your gear, and the differences in the targets you fight.  Not all gamers want to be SSJ17 Goku fighting a normal human being from Earth.  We all like a sense of being powerful, but most of us would like it to be within reason to the game's structure.

That being said, nullifiers do play favorites in terms of gear.  I believe there should be a strategy for any weapon/frame to defeat them effectively enough that you don't feel gimped when one shows up because you brought 'x' instead of 'y'.

Actually, there is plenty of thinking involved if you aren't a cheeser, complaints about Nullifiers however come from both sides because they are a jarring sore thumb in the game. To me, as someone who does think while playing, they are just there to be there, as powers are changed and balanced Nullifiers have no right to do what they do anymore. Other people want them gone because it does mean they have to slow their mindless roll.