I think Loki could stand to have some of his utility limited a bit.

[Sasquatchias]

Loki has always been a pretty decent / great frame - he is based purely around utility as opposed to the general mixes of most frames, and his kit just synergizes incredibly well. 

But personally I've always thought Loki was a bit too good - he has never been a bad pick, he is always among the highest played Warframes, and his due to the mechanics of his kit he is able to fairly easily make a room of enemies pretty much useless.

Radial Disarm for example jams an enemy's gun for as long as they're alive, turning them into a melee unit that slowly runs up to enemies to do a little swing - which is a problem because all of their enemies can walk faster than them, and also have much greater forms of movement at the drop of a hat.

A single Radial Disarm can make a large group (or a near roomful with a Stretch mod) of enemies nearly useless, and is completely safe when doing so due to his Invisibility. 

And when you factor in Decoy you'll have situations where a group of melee enemies just swarm the Decoy for a ludicrously long time before it either dies or runs out, which is plenty enough time for Loki and friends to either get away or blow them to smithereens.

 

I think what Loki needs is a big nerf to Radial Disarm and Decoy - add in a Duration for how long their effects last. 

What this would mean is that every enemy hit by Radial Disarm would have a Duration where they'll be stuck as a melee unit, and once that duration runs out they "fix" their gun and become ranged again.

And enemies distracted by Decoy will only be distracted for a few seconds before realizing they're shooting a hologram, and will turn their attention back to other hostile units.
f

Edited August 6, 2016 by Sasquatch180

[felixsylvaris]

Ib4 Loki Master Race.

He is very good frame, which you cant see that often outside SPY and some alerts.

He is not annoying to play with, since all powerful abilities make other frames; job easier.

Nerfing him... would be blashemy.

Edited August 6, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[(PSN)Bushido-Rises]

Loki is fine.  

Also helps to think from a non vet players point of view. I remember when I was a noob lol.  So for newer players (and fact that loko used to be a starter frame too), You're gonna have users that don't have a Reactor on yet, and they won't have as much shield/health, and especially duration, range, or augments to use.  So they're left with a squishier loki with less invisibility time. 

I think Loki scales well for all players, novice and late-game. Hence he is a favorite pick for many, and good addition for most teams.  With a topic like this, may as well try to nerf Frost and Vauban or others for their utilities.  No thx  

Edited August 6, 2016 by (PS4)Bushido-Rises

[Soketsu]

What does this nerf might bring to the game ? what frame are irrelevant due to a loki support ?

[Omega-Shadowblade]

13 minutes ago, Sasquatch180 said:

 

I think what Loki needs is a big nerf to Radial Disarm and Decoy - add in a Duration for how long their effects last. 

 

No. Especially not the decoy part. Decoy isn't even useful as it is on even medium difficulty as it dies in a few shots. 

[taiiat]

Disarm not removing their Weapons permanently is certainly what you'd expect, isn't it.
what to do about that it is permanent? i don't know.

i don't see any problems with Decoy Abilities - effective usage of them regardless of Enemy Level requires intention and knowledge (apparently an astronomical amount considering Decoy Abilities are considered useless by almost everyone that claims to be knowledgeable about the game). just casting it randomly doesn't do much.

[Misgenesis]

Decoy of the rest of them? Thats weird. Its really just Invisibility and Radial Disarm that need a look.

[Phatose]

Invisibility really should be given a look beyond just Loki's ability, but rather to all things that can cause it.  It's OP, yes, whether it's on Loki or Ash or via Naramon or even Ivara's arrows.

Decoy's utility drops rapidly at even medium levels.  It's not a high hp distraction, and it doesn't even try to evade.

As for Disarm, given that we're always fighting on the enemy's turf, there should be weapon lockers where enemies can run to to re-arm. 

[tripletriple]

Can we put some thought into our post please? This seems like you played one game with a good loki and decided he couldn't have played better than you. It can turn ugly for you quick against those melee enemies and more enemies are constantly pouring in. Which means you have to constantly be recasting and keeping on the move. Sure you can stay invisible and disarm but that doesn't exactly win the game for you. 

You can survive long yes, but it only takes one, yes just one stray bullet or swing of a melee weapon to put loki down. It happens a lot.

Nerfing decoy is probably the worst idea on the forums so I'd edit that out. 

[AdunSaveMe]

38 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

What does this nerf might bring to the game ? what frame are irrelevant due to a loki support ?

Nyx

[Richtor2415]

He's also really one of the only two stealth frames in Warframe.. The second being an absolute pain to farm(Ivara)

[Soketsu]

On 06/08/2016 at 6:22 AM, AdunSaveMe said:

Nyx

Nyx, before she get a (this irrelevant) passive,(and before the nullifier appear,) was useful in order to force the enemy to fight between them without have to use radiation statut (and without removing their weapons) and for much more time.

The foes cleaning their own rank themself before you finish them off, use an augmented radial disarm make the same thing but slower & safer, they will only just use slow melee attack.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Soketsu

[WrathAscending]

I only really see three problems with Loki.

One is Radial Disarm being permanent. It should be tied to a base duration; most Loki players won't even notice the difference because they build for high duration with high range and then recast it, so they're still going to semi-permanently disarm enemies any way.

The second is Irradiating Disarm, which shouldn't really have been introduced. Loki was already the top-tier Stealth frame when it was released (and arguably remains the best Stealth frame) but Irradiating Disarm catapulted him into the top tier of crowd control as well. I would swap that for an Explosive Decoy augment that made Decoy explode for a percentage of the damage it absorbed over its casting.

The last is that only two of his powers are worth building for; Invisibility and Radial Disarm. Switch Teleport is niche at best and I can't remember the last time I saw anyone use Decoy outside of a Spy vault due to its low health and at best inconsistent enemy aggro. Switch Teleport is mostly fine as is, no Warframe really has four great skills that stay in the power rotation, it's usually two or three with a utility skill. Decoy, though, needs a buff to increase the base health, and make the aggro draw on Decoy more reliable.

That would give a lot more synergy between his 1 and his 4; drop a Decoy, cast Disarm (or vice versa), use the distraction to cluster the enemy up, and then deal with them. It would also encourage some build diversity rather than focusing solely on Range and Duration.

[Crtsdfghjk]

Why do you hate things that scale in a game where enemies scale to level 9999 with 10 trillion health and 50 million armor?

Why do you want to nerf decoy, his only ability of his that doesn't scale into high levels and gets mashed to death in 0.01 seconds?

Why do you hate fun?

[Sasquatchias]

Just now, Crtsdfghjk said:

Why do you hate things that scale in a game where enemies scale to level 9999 with 10 trillion health and 50 million armor?

Why do you want to nerf decoy, his only ability of his that doesn't scale into high levels and gets mashed to death in 0.01 seconds?

Why do you hate fun?

Because I want to have the game better balanced around content that doesn't have enemies that scale so high where something like Radial Disarm is needed to survive where in every other level of content its one of many things trivializing it.

Fun is subjective, and in my view it is fun to fight against enemies that can shoot back at you as opposed to having them basically made threat-less for the rest of the time they're left alive because someone pressed an ability key.

[WrathAscending]

21 minutes ago, Crtsdfghjk said:

Why do you hate things that scale in a game where enemies scale to level 9999 with 10 trillion health and 50 million armor?

Why do you want to nerf decoy, his only ability of his that doesn't scale into high levels and gets mashed to death in 0.01 seconds?

Why do you hate fun?

If this is addressed at my suggestions?

Scaling is fine. The problem I have with Loki is his Irradiating Disarm augment. The Disarm part is fine (as long as it gets a duration like every other ability, it being permanent makes no sense from a lore or mechanical perspective) but the Radiation proc marginalises Nyx by being a superior version of Chaos. It was worse before Chaos was made re-castable but as it is the major benefit Irradiating Disarm has over Nyx is that it's impossible to be hit by accidental crossfire since enemies are reduced to melee. Nyx is already in a bad place with Chaos being the only reason to take her; Loki covers that Crowd Control role and Disarms permanently and can use Stealth.

I suggested a buff for Decoy and an Augment that would better fit Loki's trickster theme than Irradiating Disarm. Increasing the base HP of it would give a reason to actually use the skill and may even be useful enough to make Loki players face a choice between using Overextended or not.

I don't hate fun, I do however dislike mechanics that completely sideline another Warframe. Some degree of overlap between kits is inevitable as the roster grows, but the mere existence of Irradiating Disarm completely obviates the only niche left for Nyx. Nyx could be buffed, but that would necessarily entail her stepping on the toes of other Warframes, whereas removing one ill-fitting Augment from Loki would solve the problem without creating more.

Imagine if Nyx received an Augment for Chaos that granted a 20-second Invisibility in an environment where Loki had not been given Irradiating Disarm. What do you think that would have done to Loki's place in the game? Perhaps more pointedly, what if that augment was added now, how happy would Loki players be?

[Soketsu]

26 minutes ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Because I want to have the game better balanced around content that doesn't have enemies that scale so high where something like Radial Disarm is needed to survive where in every other level of content its one of many things trivializing it.

Fun is subjective, and in my view it is fun to fight against enemies that can shoot back at you as opposed to having them basically made threat-less for the rest of the time they're left alive because someone pressed an ability key.

You still don't answered to my question but I need to say something about this,

on this game knowledge is the most important parameter what will you bring to the mission, not how the enemy will react since players will alway find a way to transform "challenge" into a "garden walk" when they learn how to deal with, the AI won't adapt themself while fighting us, they will still run into obvious trap, get lured by gross decoy, even if it is the 437th time you do the same thing, at the same spot on the same game. Even if we remove radial disarm we will still have tons of CC in order to control entire platoons (with nova,rhino, nerzha, nyx, vauban, frost, mirage, exca, equinox...)

[Ivan_Rid]

4 hours ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

No. Especially not the decoy part. Decoy isn't even useful as it is on even medium difficulty as it dies in a few shots. 

What shots? Enemies are disarmed. Even if it dies - its cheap.

 

4 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Nyx

Nyx has a Chaos Sphere, and she is always better than Loki against Infested.

[Kastorius]

Oh cool, a Loki nerf thread. Truly, one of the rarest pepes!

[BlackCoMerc]

11 hours ago, Sasquatch180 said:

Loki has always been a pretty decent / great frame - he is based purely around utility as opposed to the general mixes of most frames, and his kit just synergizes incredibly well. 

But personally I've always thought Loki was a bit too good - he has never been a bad pick, he is always among the highest played Warframes, and his due to the mechanics of his kit he is able to fairly easily make a room of enemies pretty much useless.

Radial Disarm for example jams an enemy's gun for as long as they're alive, turning them into a melee unit that slowly runs up to enemies to do a little swing - which is a problem because all of their enemies can walk faster than them, and also have much greater forms of movement at the drop of a hat.

A single Radial Disarm can make a large group (or a near roomful with a Stretch mod) of enemies nearly useless, and is completely safe when doing so due to his Invisibility. 

And when you factor in Decoy you'll have situations where a group of melee enemies just swarm the Decoy for a ludicrously long time before it either dies or runs out, which is plenty enough time for Loki and friends to either get away or blow them to smithereens.

 

I think what Loki needs is a big nerf to Radial Disarm and Decoy - add in a Duration for how long their effects last. 

What this would mean is that every enemy hit by Radial Disarm would have a Duration where they'll be stuck as a melee unit, and once that duration runs out they "fix" their gun and become ranged again.

And enemies distracted by Decoy will only be distracted for a few seconds before realizing they're shooting a hologram, and will turn their attention back to other hostile units.
f

Loki is touchy.

Of all frames, he is the hardest to make work. A powerful Loki virtually requires Corrupted Mods. Overextended is a must for Disarm. Narrow Minded and Fleeting Expertise for both that, and Invisibility. At least, perma invisible builds. Not to mention, Energy Siphon, an Alert only drop.

Of course, all of this might require Forma. On a frame that does not, itself, deal damage. Which means lengthy level ups.

After all this, should a player not be powerful?

On the other hand:

Disarm and Decoy together basically turn off game play. And on a frame that is rarely, if ever, in real danger unless it's pilot really screws up.

Honestly, I think Disarm should be Radial Jam. Enemies should get their guns back. And Irradiation should go away. It's stepping on two sets of toes (Nyx and Oberon) and it's too good.

Other than that, you could make Invisible a toggle, but you would need a huge buff to health and shields, since Invisible is Loki's only Tank.

[Fuemego]

If these changes were put in place, would you see yourself using Loki as much as you do now? Think about it OP.

[DatDarkOne]

On 8/5/2016 at 10:56 PM, Phatose said:

Invisibility really should be given a look beyond just Loki's ability, but rather to all things that can cause it.  It's OP, yes, whether it's on Loki or Ash or via Naramon or even Ivara's arrows.

And why do you say this?  How is it OP?  I would like a very real thought out answer.  Invis either requires set of factors to be performed(Naramon) or have hard limits placed on them (all the others).  Not to mention they take increased damage when hit while invisible.  

Just for the record, I dislike Loki.  More because of the "master-race" BS than the frame itself.  But when you truly consider the limits (conditions) on those powers of Invisibilty, how can they be considered OP.  Especially in the context of all the available powers in warframe.  

[Gurpgork]

On August 5, 2016 at 11:38 PM, Crtsdfghjk said:

Why do you hate things that scale in a game where enemies scale to level 9999 with 10 trillion health and 50 million armor?

The better question is why do people think we're supposed to fight level 9999 enemies? The point of infinite scaling is that there is supposed to come a point where we cannot go on. 99% of the player base realistically can never expect to see an enemy at level 150 or above, let alone 9999. So why do people bring up level 9999 enemies in balance discussions? This is a serious question. 

On August 5, 2016 at 11:38 PM, Crtsdfghjk said:

Why do you hate fun?

In all fairness, I've only ever seen questions like this in defense of stuff like pre nerf Prism, original Peacemaker, pre nerf Hysteria, and pretty much anything else that lets players win the game by playing as little of it as possible. Players asking for nerfs don't hate fun, they just don't think that outright ignoring enemies is fun. 

[RealPandemonium]

Decoy can't actually tank hits

Invis offers effective invulnerability and trivialization of many aspects of the game due to its effectively infinite uptime and low cost

ST should make its target the target of all nearby allies for a few seconds

RD needs a radius nerf and should have a duration.

Overall, the fact that Loki has a more or less pure dump stat in Power Strength makes him very powerful and creates idealized builds with no drawbacks and no need for trade-offs.  The open mod space that would have been used for strength mods allows Loki to take full advantage of QT+[Primed] Flow for free, which becomes ludicrously good when combined with Invis (and even further with Zenurik.)

 Not to mention they take increased damage when hit while invisible.

They deal increased damage with melee while invisible; they don't take any more damage.

Edited August 7, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[DatDarkOne]

24 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

They deal increased damage with melee while invisible; they don't take any more damage.

Edited because you are correct.  :D 

Edited August 7, 2016 by DatDarkOne
edited