Did you know? Grineer EHP exponentially, exponentially, exponentially, exponentially scales?

[DrBorris]

Yes, that is four exponentiallys, let's have a little chat about how broken scaling is. 

 

Okay, I do have to confess, one of those exponentiallys is endless scaling being exponential, which I personally have no problem with. This means that the numerical level of the enemy increases faster and faster, which makes endless missions more... lively, IMO. However, this only exacerbates the other three exponentiallys.  

 

So what are those three exponential scaling stats? (as compared to numerical enemy level) 

-Health of the enemy 

Spoiler

Current Health=Base Health*(1+(Current Level-Base Level)^2*.015)

-Armor of the enemy 

Spoiler

Current Armor=Base Armor*(1+(Current Level-Base Level)^1.75*.005)

-The relation of health being multiplied by armor 

Spoiler

Then after Armor is exponentially scaled, that value becomes a DR for the Grineer's EHP. And due to there being two scaling variables, it leaves us with exponential scaling for EHP.  

 

And let us not forget that enemy damage also scales exponentially 

Spoiler

Current Damage=Base Damage*(1+(Current Level-Base Level)^1.55*.015) 

 

Like... what? Who thought scaling like this was a good idea. At least with Corpus the only have two separate exponentially scaling attributes that don't compound on each other like Grineer (the main reason why Corpus are so much easier to kill at high levels). 

 

And are you ready for the kicker? The reward that you get for killing these exponentially scaling enemies has diminishing returns. Come on now, if you are going to give us BS scaling you should at least give us adequate compensation, but nah.  

Spoiler

Current Affinity=Base Affinity*(1+(Current Level)^.5*.1425) 

 

Want to see something really scary? Let's look at a graph that shows the relation between hit points and affinity gained of our favorite enemy, the Lancer. 

Spoiler

And if that is not bad enough, how about a Bombard? It has an even more extreme peak and fall.  

Spoiler

 

You notice that peak? Yeah, that is the most efficient point of killing enemies. It is at… level 10. The correlation between the amount of hit points an enemy has and the affinity the enemy gives says that your bullets are best used killing massive mobs of level 10 enemies. Sigh… 

 

I am done here, the only way we can get this changed is if we rage enough. FIX THIS DE! 

Spoiler

My proposition:  

Armor does not scale at all, it is a base value that remains the same no matter what level the enemy is.  

Health (and shields) LINEARLY scale. 

Keep the exponential scaling of the enemy levels themselves in endless missions. 

You don't even have to make affinity scaling perfectly linear for balance reasons, but at least make it to the .75 power rather than to the .5.  

And if you want to see more BS Warframe stuff,  

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by DrBorris

[Kinetos]

3 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Yeah, that is the most efficient point of killing enemies. It is at… level 10

Unless you consider the max level your chosen weapon will oneshot the enemy, because overkill damage is wasted. 

[DrBorris]

2 minutes ago, KinetosImpetus said:

Unless you consider the max level your chosen weapon will oneshot the enemy, because overkill damage is wasted. 

This is true, but you can't deny that there should not be that much of a spike and if there was a spike it should probably not be at level 10 (maybe 30?).

[Kinetos]

2 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

This is true, but you can't deny that there should not be that much of a spike and if there was a spike it should probably not be at level 10 (maybe 30?).

Agreed 

[Epsik-kun]

Well, that's why there's only one faction in the game.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[SaurusRex]

Okay, but... who cares? They still get annihilated in sorties with the right setup, endless missions are barely done anyway since the void blew up, and Draco proved that 4 murderhobos can easily clear vast amounts of level 40+ enemies to get all their gear to 30 in a few rounds, so what exactly needs to be changed?

[-Shattered-]

12 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Yes, that is four exponentiallys, let's have a little chat about how broken scaling is. 

 

Okay, I do have to confess, one of those exponentiallys is endless scaling being exponential, which I personally have no problem with. This means that the numerical level of the enemy increases faster and faster, which makes endless missions more... lively, IMO. However, this only exasperates the other three exponentiallys.  

 

So what are those three exponential scaling stats? (as compared to numerical enemy level) 

-Health of the enemy 

  Hide contents

Current Health=Base Health*(1+(Current Level-Base Level)^2*.015)

-Armor of the enemy 

  Hide contents

Current Armor=Base Armor*(1+(Current Level-Base Level)^1.75*.005)

-The relation of health being multiplied by armor 

  Hide contents

Then after Armor is exponentially scaled, that value becomes a DR for the Grineer's EHP. And due to there being two scaling variables, it leaves us with exponential scaling for EHP.  

 

And let us not forget that enemy damage also scales exponentially 

  Hide contents

Current Damage=Base Damage*(1+(Current Level-Base Level)^1.55*.015) 

 

Like... what? Who thought scaling like this was a good idea. At least with Corpus the only have two separate exponentially scaling attributes that don't compound on each other like Grineer (the main reason why Corpus are so much easier to kill at high levels). 

 

And are you ready for the kicker? The reward that you get for killing these exponentially scaling enemies has diminishing returns. Come on now, if you are going to give us BS scaling you should at least give us adequate compensation, but nah.  

  Hide contents

Current Affinity=Base Affinity*(1+(Current Level)^.5*.1425) 

 

Want to see something really scary? Let's look at a graph that shows the relation between hit points and affinity gained of our favorite enemy, the Lancer. 

  Hide contents

And if that is not bad enough, how about a Bombard? It has an even more extreme peak and fall.  

  Hide contents

 

You notice that peak? Yeah, that is the most efficient point of killing enemies. It is at… level 10. The correlation between the amount of hit points an enemy has and the affinity the enemy gives says that your bullets are best used killing massive mobs of level 10 enemies. Sigh… 

 

I am done here, the only way we can get this changed is if we rage enough. FIX THIS DE! 

  Hide contents

My proposition:  

Armor does not scale at all, it is a base value that remains the same no matter what level the enemy is.  

Health (and shields) LINEARLY scale. 

Keep the exponential scaling of the enemy levels themselves in endless missions. 

You don't even have to make affinity scaling perfectly linear for balance reasons, but at least make it to the .75 power rather than to the .5.  

And if you want to see more BS Warframe stuff,  

 

Please, stop, stop it. Im so scared.

Even that Bombards' Graph is so creepy *hiding behind a rock*

[Skaleek]

Yeah, everyone knows the most efficient way to farm xp is to kill low level mobs(sans eximus units obviously). People have been complaining about enemy scaling for a few years now. No end in sight, nothing we can do.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Skaleek

[DrBorris]

4 minutes ago, SaurusRex said:

Okay, but... who cares? They still get annihilated in sorties with the right setup, endless missions are barely done anyway since the void blew up, and Draco proved that 4 murderhobos can easily clear vast amounts of level 40+ enemies to get all their gear to 30 in a few rounds, so what exactly needs to be changed?

DE will never be able to balance anything if their scaling is so out of control, and the only way we are able to kill these guys is by removing two of the exponentiallys (Removing their armor  which in turn removes the exponential relation between armor and health). Do you really think it is a good thing that your Paris Prime does like 100 damage to a high level enemy?

Whenever DE makes a balance change the first thing people get up in arms about is how broken scaling is and how it (in their minds) should be fixed first. There will NEVER be balance in Warframe if scaling has such an insane curve.

[BornWithTeeth]

19 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

 

 

Okay, I do have to confess, one of those exponentiallys is endless scaling being exponential, which I personally have no problem with. This means that the numerical level of the enemy increases faster and faster, which makes endless missions more... lively, IMO. However, this only exasperates the other three exponentiallys.  

 

The word you're looking for here is 'exacerbates'. It means 'to intensify an already existing factor', i.e. "This problem was exacerbated by the hordes of shrieking poop-smeared children, high on sugar and lack of supervision."

 

This is exasperating to me.

[Zyrgi]

You just made a case for why Corrosive Projection is the only aura that matters. Thank you.

For the n-th time - people don't care and still pick aura that fits the polarity and never change it. Maybe if everyone had only CP ever equipped the scaling would be changed. Everyone knows that armor scaling is terrible already and it has been pointed out a billion times.

Let's hope Damage 3.0 is a thing and will address this.

 

[Vali]

> Armor has a exponential formula 

> EHP is exponential

> What a surprise!

On a more serious note, I'm pretty sure this is a known fact by now. Its why 100 points of armor on a warframe could mean the difference between life and death. 

[DrBorris]

1 minute ago, Agentawesome said:

> Armor has a exponential formula 

> EHP is exponential

> What a surprise!

On a more serious note, I'm pretty sure this is a known fact by now. Its why 100 points of armor on a warframe could mean the difference between life and death. 

Yeah, armor scales exponentially, but so does health. And because you multiply those two rather than add (Corpus add) it adds another exponential-ish relationship. To have two factors that individually exponentially scale then compound on each other is broken AF. You really notice that when you look at Infested which only have one exponential scaling attribute, their health. Should Grineer scale up their damage resilience that much as compared to Infested or Corpus? It sounds almost like more of a faction-by-faction balance issue.

[Vyra]

11 minutes ago, Zyrgi said:

Let's hope Damage 3.0 is a thing and will address this.

couldn't resist

[Trichouette]

What a coincidence, some days ago I roughly calculated the health point & armor of a grineer lancer lvl 120 just to see how stupid it is, and I got something around 21 300 health point and 2250 armor, 2250 armor is 88% damage reduction, which grant the lancer around 177 800 effective health point.

And I didn't even calculate the damage output, could've been fun.

Anyway, everybody know this game has no "endgame" and everything above lvl 80-100 is absolutely stupid regarding the scaling.

 

And DE keeps making more content instead of trying to fix that... or they're doing it in secret

[Drufo]

13 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

... or they're doing it in secret

From some hints in the devstreams I got they they're aware of the problem and are trying to figure out a solution. Sure it's what I hope :)

[Trichouette]

3 minutes ago, Drufo said:

From some hints in the devstreams I got they they're aware of the problem and are trying to figure out a solution. Sure it's what I hope :)

Dude... they're aware of TONS of problem. The question is rather "do they care about fixing it or not"

Look at the awful RNG, they're aware of that, will they fix it ? hell no.

[GinKenshin]

Just now, Trichouette said:

Dude... they're aware of TONS of problem. The question is rather "do they care about fixing it or not"

Look at the awful RNG, they're aware of that, will they fix it ? hell no.

they helped it, at least for prime parts, which is the biggest RNG problem there is 

back to the OP. this is some good research you've done, congrtz first 

so the basic idea is: when enemies get harder and harder to kill (due to armor and health scaling together), you aren't rewarded with more and more XP? well I'm guessing that's an easy fix, just increase the XP from higher lvl enemies 

but I'd like to point out that, doing high lvl missions is also good for getting XP (maybe better than lvl 10, as you suppose), since in higher lvls, heavy units spawn more, eximus spawn more, and these are the highest XP giving units in the game. also, I don't think a heavy unit/eximus spawns at lvl 10. I mean, you wanna farm lvl 10 lancers, be my guest, but I'll go for the lvl 50+ ELITE lancers and heavy units and eximus

also, by your research, doing a low lvl survival should get me more XP than a high lvl survival, which I find unbelievable, but I'll test it anyway 

as for your solution to fix this, should armor scale and health doesn't? since logically, I doubt a grineer with get more blood and muscles instead of more powerful armor on. but warframe isn't logical so... >.> 

[Liolean]

I agree that armor should not scale in the first place. Having light and heavy units with less than 0.0001% diffirence in their damage reduction at some point of the game is ridiculous. Just where do they shove all this armor, anyway? They are not changing visually, which means their bodies are becoming denser... i don't wanna fight walking black holes at some point=\

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

40 minutes ago, Zyrgi said:

You just made a case for why Corrosive Projection is the only aura that matters. Thank you.

For the n-th time - people don't care and still pick aura that fits the polarity and never change it. Maybe if everyone had only CP ever equipped the scaling would be changed. Everyone knows that armor scaling is terrible already and it has been pointed out a billion times.

Let's hope Damage 3.0 is a thing and will address this.

 

Problem is giving us a new damage model won't fix broken scaling. Honestly, the point of enemies getting so hard is because DE wants you to do more middling length runs, not one really long one. At least that's the only explanation I could see for a scaling mechanic this shoddy. Let's look at it this way, the Grineer do wear some sort of power armor, but does it really make sense to just keep throwing more and more armor (and thus weight) onto a system that's only designed to be able to handle a certain amount? Honestly, armor scaling should just be gotten rid of, it makes no sense

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

4 minutes ago, Liolean said:

I agree that armor should not scale in the first place. Having light and heavy units with less than 0.0001% diffirence in their damage reduction at some point of the game is ridiculous. Just where do they shove all this armor, anyway? They are not changing visually, which means their bodies are becoming denser... i don't wanna fight walking black holes at some point=\

They're turning into bullet sponges! :o

[Bizzaro21]

I knew they scale exponentially, but i didnt think its that bad...

anyway, OP I totally agree with ya, the armor change was actually an idea i had, so glad im not the only one who thought of it ;)

+1

Edited August 9, 2016 by Bizzaro21
dat stupid typo

[bluepheonix13]

Just to correct you, the term exponential is wrong in this case. Health and armor only scale polynomial. Exponential would be "constant^enemy level", which would be much worse scaling.

[Zyrgi]

1 minute ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Problem is giving us a new damage model won't fix broken scaling. Honestly, the point of enemies getting so hard is because DE wants you to do more middling length runs, not one really long one. At least that's the only explanation I could see for a scaling mechanic this shoddy. Let's look at it this way, the Grineer do wear some sort of power armor, but does it really make sense to just keep throwing more and more armor (and thus weight) onto a system that's only designed to be able to handle a certain amount? Honestly, armor scaling should just be gotten rid of, it makes no sense

"Damage 3.0" is basically a nebulous term to include any and all possible future changes to the way we deal damage to enemies. If developers wanted more mid-length runs they could have just capped the maximum rotation amount to 2 C rotations or something instead of doing everything to make the gameplay miserable eg. Nullifiers, armor scaling, Bursas, etc. (and I don't mean they're totally bad, just need a little tweaking in terms of their TTK(time to kill) value.)

But with the way we're receiving updates and content I assume it's pretty hard to spend dev's time on figuring out the scaling thoroughly, so I wouldn't blame them. However if we get more repeatable content that doesn't get old that fast, similar to sorties and raids, that could keep the player base distracted, they might not need to release new weapons or something other for people to do while waiting for the changes, every week.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

14 minutes ago, Liolean said:

I agree that armor should not scale in the first place. Having light and heavy units with less than 0.0001% diffirence in their damage reduction at some point of the game is ridiculous. Just where do they shove all this armor, anyway? They are not changing visually, which means their bodies are becoming denser... i don't wanna fight walking black holes at some point=\

 

9 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

They're turning into bullet sponges! :o

#Challenge [/sarcasm]