Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Dogefighter]

14 hours ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

As the title said. Can we please, un-nerf Nekros, to pre-Nekros Prime update, pretty please?

Before Nekros Prime update, maxed strength gives Nekros as much as 15 Shadows (or more), now his cap is 7. That's not to mention that they are constantly losing health now, regeneration and renewing Shadows are nice, first I heard of this I was excited, but then now that I realized they are constantly losing health (watching one of my Shadow lost 1/3 its health after 1 hit by another Corrupted is painful), now the user has to actively regenerate their Shadows and renewing them, which means wasting more energy.

Now what the hell is this? I might be one of the minor here that loved his 4th (despite it could have desperately use a buff), now it's S#&$ and I have literally zero reason to play Nekros, you guys just literally made him 99% farm frame with that Desecrate buff and the nerf to his 4th. His 4th was extremely useful in using the Shadows as being bullet eaters for its master and his teammates and distract the enemies, it had some sort of crowd control and overall a good support ability for a supporter like Nekros, now it can't even do that effectively, they can't kill because their damage is literally so small comparing to the higher level enemies' health and they die so easily it's ridiculous.

This update is a blessing to those farmers and save them from spamming Desecrate, but such a curse to those who ACTUALLY plays Nekros. If prior to this you didn't use his 4th but only his 1st and 2nd and 3rd, good for you, but damn nobody asked for this nerf to his 4th, it wasn't even popular, I get asked "what build is that" every time I use his 4th and gets a mini-army, that's to show how unpopular that is. What the bloody hell?

 

 

100% agreed

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

11 minutes ago, zehne said:

I'm saying learn to adapt.  Stopped playing the game at one point in time, I had about 80% play time on my nova (before prime even existed).  Came back to the game and found that my Molecular Prime "didn't work".

Instead of spewing off 'I hate you DE' or 'QQ you wrecked nova' I took the changes for what they were.  So I can't MP and watch everything within a 2mile radius instantly stop in time.  And I can't kill one enemy and watch a chain reaction rip across the room.  Does that mean Nova was ruined?  NO.

Because Nova was brokenly op and still is. There are tiers of frames, and Nekros wasn't up there with her to begin with.

Edited August 28, 2016 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[Noble_Cactus]

18 minutes ago, zehne said:

I'm saying learn to adapt.  Stopped playing the game at one point in time, I had about 80% play time on my nova (before prime even existed).  Came back to the game and found that my Molecular Prime "didn't work".

Instead of spewing off 'I hate you DE' or 'QQ you wrecked nova' I took the changes for what they were.  So I can't MP and watch everything within a 2mile radius instantly stop in time.  And I can't kill one enemy and watch a chain reaction rip across the room.  Does that mean Nova was ruined?  NO.

Since when was Nekros able to delete entire rooms like Nova could (can) with MPrime and AMD? The point is that Nekros was already struggling to stay viable (and only was because of Desecrate). Now, he has no niche at all because the rest of his kit is shoddy compared to most other frames.

[zehne]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Because Nova was brokenly op and still is. There are tiers of frames, and Nekros wasn't up there with her to begin with.

16 minutes ago, Noble_Cactus said:

Since when was Nekros able to delete entire rooms like Nova could (can) with MPrime and AMD? The point is that Nekros was already struggling to stay viable (and only was because of Desecrate). Now, he has no niche at all because the rest of his kit is shoddy compared to most other frames.

1)  So because "nekros wasn't great" you argue "make nekros great again". 

2) Nekros is Nekros not Nova.  Desecrate is still amazing, only frame that can spawn health orbs like candy.  Which means it's the only frame that can consistently benefit from equilibrium for mass energy.  Nekros's desecrate is also in a sense a team healing ability.  Also a team ammo restore ability. Also a lifesupport giver (survival). What's more is it's a 'free' ability.  Terrify is by far an amazing CC ability.  The only reason why most people don't think so is because it has a slightly smaller AoE than the 'preferred' CC frames.  But it's duration is incredibly long. 

The biggest downside to nekros was how the old desecrate worked.  Now that it's changed I can play nekros with alot less 'burden'.  Does that mean I like the SoTD change? Not really.  Can I accept that DE had a reason for it? Yes.

Edited August 28, 2016 by zehne

[Archwizard]

On the plus side, I'm definitely enjoying Nekros more than before with the updates, now that the value of Desecrate spam has gone down and Shadow maintenance has gone up.

That being said:

• Shadows deteriorate far too quickly. Yes you can just spend 100 more energy to heal them back up, but their "unique" durational mechanic is tied to their combat survivability; it'd only work out if they mitigated or were completely immune to damage during this time, which they aren't. What Nekros needs at this point is an alternative way to restore them - a cheap way to slow down their deterioration, to encourage using his powers together rather than saving up to restore his shadows 10 seconds into the cast.
  I mean, it's that or just do what you said originally, and remove the duration entirely.
• Shadows are weaker on the whole than they were before. Yes we have weighted priorities and more control over them, but it all comes down to energy economy, which the changes to Shadows tanked. As others have mathed out above, all it requires is a bigger buff to damage and health - or better yet, base mitigation instead of health, since the deterioration will just scale up to eat through that health bonus anyway.
• Desecrate isn't frustrating to spam anymore, but that still doesn't mean it's a good ability. It presently has no particular interactions with Nekros' kit: Soul Punch doesn't fillet corpses into making more drops, both Soul Punch and Terrify scatter bodies, and Shadows can't pick up health orbs (which would otherwise be a flawless execution of the extension effect of the ultimate). The only contribution Desecrate makes is toward energy economy... if and only if you have Despoil.

[Biofreezer]

37 minutes ago, zehne said:

I'm saying learn to adapt.  Stopped playing the game at one point in time, I had about 80% play time on my nova (before prime even existed).  Came back to the game and found that my Molecular Prime "didn't work".

Instead of spewing off 'I hate you DE' or 'QQ you wrecked nova' I took the changes for what they were.  So I can't MP and watch everything within a 2mile radius instantly stop in time.  And I can't kill one enemy and watch a chain reaction rip across the room.  Does that mean Nova was ruined?  NO.

I know what you want to say with that,but for me its time to stop playing Nekro. Got 21day playtime with 21% Nekro.

Unless to say that we can discuss here pros and contras and i dont think that DE is going to change the Nekro back, its more to piss off players so they move onto other Warframes.

[Eldritchsqueaker]

24 minutes ago, zehne said:

1)  So because "nekros wasn't great" you argue "make nekros great again". 

2) Nekros is Nekros not Nova.  Desecrate is still amazing, only frame that can spawn health orbs like candy.  Which means it's the only frame that can consistently benefit from equilibrium for mass energy.  Nekros's desecrate is also in a sense a team healing ability.  Also a team ammo restore ability. Also a lifesupport giver (survival). What's more is it's a 'free' ability.  Terrify is by far an amazing CC ability.  The only reason why most people don't think so is because it has a slightly smaller AoE than the 'preferred' CC frames.  But it's duration is incredibly long. 

The biggest downside to nekros was how the old desecrate worked.  Now that it's changed I can play nekros with alot less 'burden'.  Does that mean I like the SoTD change? Not really.  Can I accept that DE had a reason for it? Yes.

You're forgetting that base terrify also has a cap and without the augment it can scatter enemies. Making them harder to hit.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

19 minutes ago, zehne said:

1)  So because "nekros wasn't great" you argue "make nekros great again". 

2) Nekros is Nekros not Nova.  Desecrate is still amazing, only frame that can spawn health orbs like candy.  Which means it's the only frame that can consistently benefit from equilibrium for mass energy.  Nekros's desecrate is also in a sense a team healing ability.  Also a team ammo restore ability. Also a lifesupport giver (survival). What's more is it's a 'free' ability.  Terrify is by far an amazing CC ability.  The only reason why most people don't think so is because it has a slightly smaller AoE than the 'preferred' CC frames.  But it's duration is incredibly long. 

The biggest downside to nekros was how the old desecrate worked.  Now that it's changed I can play nekros with alot less 'burden'.  Does that mean I like the SoTD change? Not really.  Can I accept that DE had a reason for it? Yes.

I don't argue, "make Nekros great again"- hate that motto anyways.

I argue "unbreak and unlimit and unbork the unnecessary nonsense done to it and actually fix the real issue that causes fps drops. Maybe when they started out, they thought that was the actual cause, but since it's not, the limit makes no sense.

Nekros is not the only frame that benefits from equilibrium, it's a good mod for all squishy frames, Oberon benefits as well as long as he can actually kill with reckoning (but that's another issue).

If it will indeed be limited still, and since fear is so great, make fear Nekros ult, and some utility to it, and make sotd his third

 

[zehne]

8 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

You're forgetting that base terrify also has a cap and without the augment it can scatter enemies. Making them harder to hit.

Nuances of the CC ability can be argued, but what about the base ability of Vauban's Bastille?  It has a target cap too.  Augmented ability?  Makes terrify more like MP.  They don't explode, but they lose armor.  What's more is they get slowed down.  Hey, it doesn't even have a propagation time.  Has a shorter cast time than MP too. 

 

'Unlimit'

So what limit makes sense?  20 enemies turned to shadows? 100 enemies turned to shadows?  There was a limit in place before the change.  DE decided to make the limit lower.  If SoTD had no limit and then DE changed it to 20, would that be an unreasonable change or a reasonable change to an unreasonable ability?  Depending on your standpoint there is a HUGE difference.

And from what DE did, I guess they decided that 7 was the reasonable number of enemies to resurrect.  Since they have the say so, thus it is.  Just because some players thinks it's an unreasonable change doesn't mean it is one.

Edited August 28, 2016 by zehne

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

2 minutes ago, Eldritchkitty said:

You're forgetting that base terrify also has a cap and without the augment it can scatter enemies. Making them harder to hit.

Terrify was always used as a Panic CC, anyway. If you were familiar with Terrify and the AI behavior from its influence prior to the recent Augment's introduction, this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Noble_Cactus]

39 minutes ago, zehne said:

1)  So because "nekros wasn't great" you argue "make nekros great again". 

2) Nekros is Nekros not Nova.  Desecrate is still amazing, only frame that can spawn health orbs like candy.  Which means it's the only frame that can consistently benefit from equilibrium for mass energy.  Nekros's desecrate is also in a sense a team healing ability.  Also a team ammo restore ability. Also a lifesupport giver (survival). What's more is it's a 'free' ability.  Terrify is by far an amazing CC ability.  The only reason why most people don't think so is because it has a slightly smaller AoE than the 'preferred' CC frames.  But it's duration is incredibly long. 

The biggest downside to nekros was how the old desecrate worked.  Now that it's changed I can play nekros with alot less 'burden'.  Does that mean I like the SoTD change? Not really.  Can I accept that DE had a reason for it? Yes.

The reason why people don't think it's great is because, un-augmented, it causes enemies to scatter in unpredictable directions (though they do often run in straight lines as well). CC that makes enemies harder to kill is counter-intuitive. At least the augment alleviates that.

Health orb spawn rate was also reduced with the Desecrate rework. I understand it's for balance reasons now that Desecrate is a low-commitment spell, but perhaps the health orb rate could be upped just a little.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Terrify was always used as a Panic CC, anyway. If you were familiar with Terrify and the AI behavior from its influence prior to the recent Augment's introduction, this shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Chasing enemies up and down terrain to kill them was always though. Having enemies flee as fast as they can works better in a top-down RPG or an MMO where you can easily capitalize on an enemy's movement with auto-targeting, but it's rather annoying in a shooter where your goal is to aim at heads to make the most of Terrify's armor reduction.

 

[Celas_]

15 hours ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

This update is a blessing to those farmers and save them from spamming Desecrate

15 hours ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

 

blessing? Nerf the Chance from 90% to 54% is not really "blessing" i want the 90% back, or scaling with power strength, Desecrate got the same nerf like Shadows of the Dead. What i can say to Shadows of the Dead, Performance problems dont come from this ability(its the game), and people who say its the fault from the ability should reduce the performance in their settings or buy a better pc.

Edited August 28, 2016 by ObjectM

[Gurpgork]

12 minutes ago, zehne said:

If SoTD had no limit and then DE changed it to 20, would that be an unreasonable change or a reasonable change to an unreasonable ability?  Depending on your standpoint there is a HUGE difference.

Was SotD, at any point, an unreasonable ability? Shadows always struggled to kill enemies at sortie levels, thanks to armor scaling. Their usefulness often diminished to glorified decoys as enemy levels increased, and this was true before the change. At least before, you could get a bunch of good utility units without losing too much damage output. Now, what was already a lackluster ability has now received a massive nerf to its summon count. 

15 minutes ago, zehne said:

And from what DE did, I guess they decided that 7 was the reasonable number of enemies to resurrect.  Since they have the say so, thus it is.  Just because some players thinks it's an unreasonable change doesn't mean it is one.

Just because DE is the developer of this game doesn't mean that they can do no wrong with it. They're not perfect. They have made many mistakes in the past, such as armor scaling, Nullifiers, basically Trinity's whole kit, and so on. They may have the ultimate say in what happens in this game, but that doesn't mean that the choices they make are always the best choices. 

[Soju.]

1 hour ago, zehne said:

I'm saying learn to adapt.  Stopped playing the game at one point in time, I had about 80% play time on my nova (before prime even existed).  Came back to the game and found that my Molecular Prime "didn't work".

Instead of spewing off 'I hate you DE' or 'QQ you wrecked nova' I took the changes for what they were.  So I can't MP and watch everything within a 2mile radius instantly stop in time.  And I can't kill one enemy and watch a chain reaction rip across the room.  Does that mean Nova was ruined?  NO.

Adapt to what? Blatant nerfs? Adapt to one single viable build after nerf?

34 minutes ago, zehne said:

  The biggest downside to nekros was how the old desecrate worked.  Now that it's changed I can play nekros with alot less 'burden'.  Does that mean I like the SoTD change? Not really.  Can I accept that DE had a reason for it? Yes.

This thread is targeted towards players who builds Nekros besides farming. If you like standing around doing nothing while the ability is active and farm resources then yes it's a lot less 'burden'. Just because they have a reason for it doesn't mean I will just sit here and accept their reason, that's what feedbacks are for, that's not to mention neither of us know what their "reasons" really are, besides the stupid performance argument.

4 minutes ago, zehne said:

Nuances of the CC ability can be argued, but what about the base ability of Vauban's Bastille?  It has a target cap too.  Augmented ability?  Makes terrify more like MP.  They don't explode, but they lose armor.  What's more is they get slowed down.  Hey, it doesn't even have a propagation time.  Has a shorter cast time than MP too. 

I don't get your point. Vauban and Nekros are two different Warframes, and his Bastille is aiming more towards melee targets or close quarter targets. And Vauban abilities are more focused towards CC, so you can use all or most of his abilities decently enough in one build, this can't be said for Nekros, prior to the Prime update and after the Prime update. Nekros' terrify is easily beaten by other CC oriented warframes, as others have stated, to the point that when people recruits CC frame users, Nekros would probably be the last on their list, and now his ulti is extremely underpowered. Yeah, his ultimate ability.

 

Ultimate definition:

- The best achievable or imaginable of its kind.

 

*BAM*

7 Shadows, health degeneration, constant babysitting, a much shorter duration than before, crap damage.

Do you expect me to wow?

[zehne]

6 minutes ago, AlphaWolf003 said:

Ultimate definition:

- The best achievable or imaginable of its kind.

 

*BAM*

7 Shadows, health degeneration, constant babysitting, a much shorter duration than before, crap damage.

Do you expect me to wow?

I expect you to tell me where it says in the game it is 'ultimate' before I even consider your argument.

Spoiler

Pretty sure it doesn't, it's a player coined term, maybe the 'players' should re-think it.

 

[Hixlysss]

My biggest and only real gripe with the change to nekros is DE stated they removed duration from his ability. They made it no longer dependent on duration. And what happens? The minions he summons are duration based, they drain health over time and that is affected by duration...so...what the hell DE? You just removed a visible number of duration for the sake of an invisible number, I can't even tell when my minions are low on health, so I have no idea when I need to recast my power to keep them from dieing.

Furthering from this, nekros minions should be something unique to nekros, not copies of enemies on the mission that he has killed. I'm getting tired of confusing my OWN minions with enemies and trying to kill them. And no, the color and what ever else DE has done isn't enough, cause in the middle of a swarm you really can't tell the difference. His shadows should be more like in his trailer, turning corpses into some kinda lumbering zombie type unit.

Sure we wan't to keep the number low because there are some very lower end PCs that can't handle having 30 additional AI's on their system. So let's make the number something like...Six, but really bump up their durability, make it so they stay alive until they are killed, or the power is turned off, none of this "health decay over time that is affected by durability" crap. Honestly, Nekros just needs a total overhaul, a complete rework, like what Excalibur got.

I still believe Nekros' ult should be some sorta "Reaper of souls" mode for him, like exalted blade. I'm very much a firm believer of this.

[Gurpgork]

31 minutes ago, zehne said:

I expect you to tell me where it says in the game it is 'ultimate' before I even consider your argument.

It's his most expensive skill. For a 100 energy ability, it falls extremely short of other 100 energy abilities. 

[zehne]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

It's his most expensive skill. For a 100 energy ability, it falls extremely short of other 100 energy abilities. 

Good argument although the second half is perspective.

So why not argue that for the ability 100 energy is too much? Maybe something like lower the energy cost for the ability at hand?

Edited August 28, 2016 by zehne

[Gurpgork]

1 minute ago, zehne said:

So why not argue that for the ability 100 energy is too much? Maybe something like lower the energy cost for the ability at hand?

Maybe if we got a different ability that was worthy of costing 100 energy, I'd be more or less okay with that. But I'd rather have a strong ability that justified its cost in this case, especially because it used to fill those shoes a lot better than it does now. 

[zehne]

Not all 'ultimates' cost 100 energy.  (when I say ultimate i'm referencing the abilities that are default keybind #4).

[Valdala]

5 hours ago, ashrah said:

imagine who have bad pc... and u max nekro for sotd with very high mox power how many 15-20 souls+shield of shadows...than big group of mobs..  player with bad pc would get super duper lag spikes and frame rate like in matrix

I have what you'd call an old system, 4-5 years old, with a GTX 580 with 1535MB. I still run at 1920x1080 with all setting on high (It's only Bloom and Constant Weapon Trailing I have turned off) and don't have any problems. Only sight slow down I get is when I would farm with my nekros and two hydroids. The tenticles were the reason, not my nekros.

=Valdala

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

im not a fan of the "rework"

I loved having a mini army of 17 shadows, and was saddened that i never got a chance to have the 27 man armies that could occur in void fissures. ive never had problems performance wise on ps4, and ive done many things to test the performance (having 3 15 man nekros, a trinity and 3 vaubans spamming every ability in an ODD). While the desecrate change was nice, they nerfed the overall effectiveness. and for SotD, all they did was flat out nerf it. I saw a post recently detailing all the damage of a nekros pre and post rework, and having the same power strength values, a 15 man army with ~3x damage was way more effective then a 7 man army with ~4.5x damage. The biggest problem i see with SotD is the stupid hp decay. Im sorry DE< but when you said "No more duration for SotD" you flat out lied. now, i wouldn't have a problem with this if you had energy cost reduced for number of shadows alive (Is base is 100, with 7 shadows, make energy cost be 30, and go up by 10 for each shadow that dies) But when it costs 100 energy to heal my 7 shadows from death, i might as well just let them die and get brand new ones. 

Honestly, how cool would it be if SotD worked like the trailer, where its an Aoe around nekros that turns all dead enemies (That havent decayed yet) into zombies. They might need to change desecrate so it doesnt make bodies auto decay, but if they could change SotD to that, we could have our 15+ man armies again, with lessened particle affects (The trailer just showed them getting covered in like an oil like substance) and then we could be a lord of the dead. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by (PS4)CommanderC2121
spelling

[Anatolius]

I personally find them better not because they kill anything (they do but it takes a while, they destroy  weakened enemies like cupcakes) bur because christ they draw so much aggro away from you. Im serious. These are the new defenders because you can stare at the defense point  while your shadows drsw aggro. I find him to be the god of split excavators as you solo an excavator while the rest of your team does the other.

And better yet, it picks the best shadows you have so let me just get some tar moa, some healers and chargers on my team or just 3 nullifers and those bursa and feel like a god. 

Does it have its share of problems? Yes of course and I hate it . But do I miss old SotD? Not at all.

 

[Anatolius]

2 hours ago, zehne said:

Good argument although the second half is perspective.

So why not argue that for the ability 100 energy is too much? Maybe something like lower the energy cost for the ability at hand?

Id lower the regen cost. If you keep all 7, it only costs 50 energy to regen but for every dead you must pay x% energy until the cosr is 100 energy to summon all 7

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

9 hours ago, Zachatoo said:

Given how easy it is to maintain your energy with careful managing of health/energy orbs and equilibrium, I don't think his energy costs need to be reduced by THAT much. I propose a simple 50% reduced energy cost if you're only healing or teleporting your shadows, if you have to summon new shadows then the full cost is applied.

Here is the problem. In the past SotD builds DIDN'T NEED desecrate... AT ALL! Now all the builds involving Nekros are Desecrate/SotD hybrids. In the past you could build around SotD and not worry about desecrate.

This isn't like Saryn where they nerfed her fourth ability because it was all the Saryn players used. In fact before this whole rework most Nekros players were spamming desecrate and there were only a hand full of players with other builds (SotD included). Now all that has changed is that Desecrate has been forced to be essential to EVERY Nekros build.

Before all the desecrate elitist were just perceived as jerks, now sadly the ONLY WAY to play Nekros is their way. Just is kind of funny seeing how Warframe is supposed to be a game where they players can play however they want.

---

In other words I am tired of people pointing at Desecrate as the solution. IT ISN'T!