Power Creep is bad. Period.

[Xamuswing]

There is nothing more frustrating than investing time, energy, and potentially money into a weapon or other item only for a more powerful version to be released later that outclasses it in almost every way. I'm not talking about something like Primes, which unless bought take a very long time to obtain for all the parts and materials. No, I'm talking about weapons that get released to the market or rewarded in a quest that annihilate everything else in it's class. One of the biggest offenders of this, in general, is the melee weapon class.

You like the Dakra Prime right? Well, toss that crap into the furnace because you can get the new and improved Broken War for absolutely free if you call 1-800 SECOND DREAM, complete with a slot and catalyst. On top of being superior in damage, it's also the definitive sword to use in all cases, outclassing everything in the field.

Like Jat Kittag or Sibear? Again, just toss that into the trash, because the Heliocor has some of the highest dps of any melee weapon with a massive 25% crit chance and the highest damage of any hammer at 140 base damage.

Spent all that time to obtain the Despair? Boom, Spira. 25% crit vs 2.5% and is pretty easy to craft from the market.

I think you get the point. Completely invalidating a weapon with another is seriously harmful in the long-run. It's a massive problem in other MMOs like WoW or Neverwinter. It may incentivize getting new weapons, but it alienates players that may have taken a long time to get stronger with their current weapons. Why should they keep playing the endgame content if the weapons they use now are directly weaker to someone else?

Luckily, enemies haven't gotten changed too much from when a weapon releases to when it gets powercreeped, but if the enemies get much stronger to compensate for the new weapons, we are getting into a cycle that makes hundreds of bad weapons and few good ones. I'm scared it will get to that point.

[armedpoop]

Heres the thing though: Why would you ever use or want to get another weapon if it was somehow weaker or the same as the one you are currently using? 

 

As the game progresses, new things that are added get stronger. If this didnt happen, the game would be pretty boring.

Of the weapons you listed, the newest gear is stronger. In the case of Despair vs Spira, the Despair is WAY older. So what if you spent alotta time getting stronger with that piece of gear? Ultimately you can still use that piece of gear, especially now since you really dont need THAT much power for any of the game's current content. 

I disagree completely that powercreep is bad in a PVE focused game, unless that powercreep gets to the point of blowing up the entire map or pressing one button to win. (then again thats not powercreep is it?)

Edited August 14, 2016 by armedpoop

[Alcatraz]

3 minutes ago, Xamuswing said:

There is nothing more frustrating than investing time, energy, and potentially money into a weapon or other item only for a more powerful version to be released later that outclasses it in almost every way. I'm not talking about something like Primes, which unless bought take a very long time to obtain for all the parts and materials. No, I'm talking about weapons that get released to the market or rewarded in a quest that annihilate everything else in it's class. One of the biggest offenders of this, in general, is the melee weapon class.

You like the Dakra Prime right? Well, toss that crap into the furnace because you can get the new and improved Broken War for absolutely free if you call 1-800 SECOND DREAM, complete with a slot and catalyst. On top of being superior in damage, it's also the definitive sword to use in all cases, outclassing everything in the field.

Like Jat Kittag or Sibear? Again, just toss that into the trash, because the Heliocor has some of the highest dps of any melee weapon with a massive 25% crit chance and the highest damage of any hammer at 140 base damage.

Spent all that time to obtain the Despair? Boom, Spira. 25% crit vs 2.5% and is pretty easy to craft from the market.

I think you get the point. Completely invalidating a weapon with another is seriously harmful in the long-run. It's a massive problem in other MMOs like WoW or Neverwinter. It may incentivize getting new weapons, but it alienates players that may have taken a long time to get stronger with their current weapons. Why should they keep playing the endgame content if the weapons they use now are directly weaker to someone else?

Luckily, enemies haven't gotten changed too much from when a weapon releases to when it gets powercreeped, but if the enemies get much stronger to compensate for the new weapons, we are getting into a cycle that makes hundreds of bad weapons and few good ones. I'm scared it will get to that point.

Oh you must of missed how nasty Fragor P is with 35% base crit chance...

Spent so much time getting despair sure, it is a good secondary, low to mid tier but it's not horrible. I actually spent very little time on it but this is besides my point for it.

My point about despair is this: You're here talking about "power creep" and how bad it is. IF YOU actually look at the situation you're basically wanting all these weapons buffed so good they are on par with all the new things. Except it doesn't work that way because if that was the case you'd have to keep buffing EVERY weapon in the game. There needs to be this so called "power creep" because you can't just use the same weapons forever, get over it, or find new ways to use them. Despair will take you through the solar system no problem, only high end stuff would you need to switch to Spira Prime.

So to remove power creep you just keep buffing all the old weapons and never make anything new. You just keep buffing all the old stuff you've used for weeks/months/years that have gotten stale or boring to you. It all makes sense now.

I will say that it is your choice to complain about this, also your choice to not to use these power creepers either and stick with your old weapons, that's fine, really it is. But you got to add new weapons, both high and low tier weapons to suit everyone new and old. Add more flare and flavor with fancy new weapons rather they can handle level 150+ or not. Think about it.

 

[blackheartstar_pc]

The two post above mine are both 100% correct. New weapon strength will grow over time period.

Edited August 14, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[Xamuswing]

12 minutes ago, Alcatraz said:

Oh you must of missed how nasty Fragor P is with 35% base crit chance...

"I'm not talking about something like Primes, which unless bought take a very long time to obtain for all the parts and materials. " Syndicate weapons are also in this.

Anyways, while it would be nice if all the weapons got buffed, I know that isn't realistically possible. That's not the point.

30 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

Heres the thing though: Why would you ever use or want to get another weapon if it was somehow weaker or the same as the one you are currently using?

I'd like to use new weapons, but I'm not interested. In the case of the weapons listed above, they offer nothing new besides increased stats.

I don't know if this is a novel concept, but I don't play this game for numbers and stats, I play it for fun. Having the same weapon with higher stats and a new look isn't fun.

I don't want to use these because they don't interest me. Not because I'm some jack all that hates anything new that gets added.

[Rekkou]

It's easy to justify power creep if you are old players. But for new players, power creep works the other way around. New players get Spira, strive hard to defeat their first stalker and then they'll be disappointed to see the Despair they got is much weaker. They get broken war then disappointed that the rare unvaulted Dakra Prime is much weaker.

Older players got stronger weapons, but for newer players, all they get is more disappointment.

[Alcatraz]

12 minutes ago, Xamuswing said:

"I'm not talking about something like Primes, which unless bought take a very long time to obtain for all the parts and materials. " Syndicate weapons are also in this.

Then why did you mention Sibear being lesser to the new hammer Heliocor? It is also difficult and time consuming to obtain, probably a lot less than thirty thousand cryotic Sibear though. So in regards to Fragor P, this is the samething but your point is...

 

12 minutes ago, Xamuswing said:

Having the same weapon with higher stats and a new look isn't fun.

So what is the real point of your post exactly? Age old point everyone makes a time or two is simply this: Don't use it if you don't like it.

54 minutes ago, Xamuswing said:

 It's a massive problem in other MMOs like WoW or Neverwinter.

I must point out further that this isn't like any of those games, Steve if you didn't know, went to a lot of people to get backing for Warframe way back, and got turned down by all of them because it was a sci fi and was told that warframe would fail. We're about 1 month shy of 4 years of Warframe and it's still going strong, became and still raising in popularity. So what's the point of this power creep thread?

I loved the Gorgon so long ago, still use it here and there because it's fun to do, brings back memories but, I don't see this power creep affecting it or any other weapon in the game. This is the cycle of things. Life and digital.

Would it be too much of a reach to say I want to go back to the dark ages because cell phones have improved the way things are? Or the automobile has power creeped on Horses and Buggies?

Edited August 14, 2016 by Alcatraz

[Xzorn]

Power creep is inevitable in an economy where items are not lost, stolen or break. Just a fact of gaming.

That being said power creep in this game goes above and beyond what's necessary to the mechanics.

Much of the time this is on purpose. Another poster used Fragor Prime as an example. Fragor Prime has stupid powerful stats but downright awful weapon reach. Same with Nikana Prime. These melee weapons are trying to lure you away from previous ones capable of hitting 10 targets at once like Orthos and Jat Katag. In this case of these weapons you're kinda being fooled as 10k damage against 2 targets and 5k damage against 4 targets is still 20k damage output.

Power creep and to some degree progression has also been swept under the rug as of recently since everything is lvl 40 beyond a 30min daily mission. There's nothing to use those 1.4 million red crits on anymore.

[blackheartstar_pc]

4 minutes ago, Alcatraz said:

d?I loved the Gorgon so long ago, still use it here and there because it's fun to do, brings back memories, but I don't see this power creep affecting it or any other weapon in the game. This is the cycle of things. Life and digital.

This. Still love plain old Gorgan myself. New weapons do not remove older weaker ones from the game unless you want them to. There is plenty of room for both. It also depends on what you want to do with them. Drop 7 forma into the AkLato and it will work through every planet for example.

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

This. Still love plain old Gorgan myself. New weapons do not remove older weaker ones from the game unless you want them to. There is plenty of room for both. It also depends on what you want to do with them. Drop 7 forma into the AkLato and it will work through every planet for example.

Besides the mediocre damage, the mag size is why I never liked Gorgon. Prisma Grakata 120 rounds, Prisma Gorgon 120 rounds... Huh?

Those two weapons are only 5 months apart too. That's just dumb design. Prisma/Wrath Gorgon should be 200 round mag minimum.

[Xamuswing]

18 minutes ago, Alcatraz said:

Age old point everyone makes a time or two is simply this: Don't use it if you don't like it.

I don't use them. As I said, weapons that are just upgrades with a new look bore me.

Sure, the Gorgon may be fun to use, but do you honestly expect randoms to ever pick it up if other machine guns out preform it on almost every level?

Furthermore, let's say that a new balancing patch came out that made enemies in higher levels scale much more quickly. Why should I ever use the Gorgon now? It's no longer as strong as it was and goes further into a rabbit hole of weapons that used to be cool.

Again, I'm not asking for old weapons to be buffed, just that new weapons need something to stand out that doesn't just mean higher stats.

[blackheartstar_pc]

16 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Prisma/Wrath Gorgon should be 200 round mag minimum.

Can not argue that. I remember either a Prime Time or a Dev Stream awhile back talking about an potential augment mod to link the Gorgans ammo directly to the max ammo bypassing the magazine altogether. Sounds so sweet.

Edited August 14, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[armedpoop]

48 minutes ago, Xamuswing said:

I'd like to use new weapons, but I'm not interested. In the case of the weapons listed above, they offer nothing new besides increased stats.

I don't know if this is a novel concept, but I don't play this game for numbers and stats, I play it for fun. Having the same weapon with higher stats and a new look isn't fun.

I don't want to use these because they don't interest me. Not because I'm some jack all that hates anything new that gets added.

Thats a lotta "I's" in your response, the game isnt made just for you.

"fun" is subjective tho, whats fun for you isnt fun for me. I like getting the new hotness and getting stronger stats to deal more damage. I and many other gamers do, which is why this is a common thing in games. Thats like playing a turn based RPG and not using the stronger weapons because they arent "fun". Its not fun for me to lose, or to gimp myself. (sometimes its fun to gimp myself actually, fun builds do have a place in this game) 

Its all about that carrot on a stick. If the carrot is removed from in front of you, you wont run for it anymore. (or in this case if there were a million carrots and some were further back than others, youd stop at the 1st one. Whats the point?)

 

37 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

It's easy to justify power creep if you are old players. But for new players, power creep works the other way around. New players get Spira, strive hard to defeat their first stalker and then they'll be disappointed to see the Despair they got is much weaker. They get broken war then disappointed that the rare unvaulted Dakra Prime is much weaker.

Older players got stronger weapons, but for newer players, all they get is more disappointment.

This is a fair point, but its kinda nulified by the nature of warframe itself. The progression requires you to use every piece of gear, weak or not. 

[blackheartstar_pc]

32 minutes ago, Xamuswing said:

Sure, the Gorgon may be fun to use, but do you honestly expect randoms to ever pick it up if other machine guns out preform it on almost every level?

Not sure where you're going here. Unless you are making a point to keep up with every weapon in the game and where it stands in comparison with other weapons which most randoms do not. With that randoms may well be the ones you see wielding weapons like this the most.

Edited August 14, 2016 by blackheartstar_pc

[Tyranei]

Power Creep is a necessity in any game, especially free-to-play ones, where what you get is what you keep.  You cannot expect players to continue playing without some form of progression.  In fact, to expect otherwise is a show of ignorance in how MMOs can afford to keep their servers up and release new content and a line of arrogance in expecting everyone to conform to your standards.

Right now, because endless missions are now irrelevant, a lot of weapons are now "viable."  Too bad most of them aren't even fun.  I switch it up a lot while doing normal non-sortie missions but I always end up going back to my good or fun weapons.  I'm a bit of a collector so I have a lot of weapons that I use on occasion.  Most of them collect dust but that has nothing to do with power creep.  Newer weapons feel more fun to use due to mechanics/appearance/style.  I love the Opticor.  Its one of the rare older weapons that I have fun using.  The Panthera could be fun if the alternate fire didn't have such abysmal range.

While I do agree that many past weapons need to be looked at in relation to the game's progression, the game needs to have a continual power creep to incentivize players to remain interested in playing (and thus giving the developers money to continue creating content).  I would even go far as to say Void 2.0 has lowered players' incentive to get newer weapons because they no longer need more than what they already have.  Sorties are the only real "endgame" Warframe has right now and you only do it once a day.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

8 hours ago, Xamuswing said:

There is nothing more frustrating than investing time, energy, and potentially money into a weapon or other item only for a more powerful version to be released later that outclasses it in almost every way. I'm not talking about something like Primes, which unless bought take a very long time to obtain for all the parts and materials. No, I'm talking about weapons that get released to the market or rewarded in a quest that annihilate everything else in it's class. One of the biggest offenders of this, in general, is the melee weapon class.

You like the Dakra Prime right? Well, toss that crap into the furnace because you can get the new and improved Broken War for absolutely free if you call 1-800 SECOND DREAM, complete with a slot and catalyst. On top of being superior in damage, it's also the definitive sword to use in all cases, outclassing everything in the field.

Like Jat Kittag or Sibear? Again, just toss that into the trash, because the Heliocor has some of the highest dps of any melee weapon with a massive 25% crit chance and the highest damage of any hammer at 140 base damage.

Spent all that time to obtain the Despair? Boom, Spira. 25% crit vs 2.5% and is pretty easy to craft from the market.

I think you get the point. Completely invalidating a weapon with another is seriously harmful in the long-run. It's a massive problem in other MMOs like WoW or Neverwinter. It may incentivize getting new weapons, but it alienates players that may have taken a long time to get stronger with their current weapons. Why should they keep playing the endgame content if the weapons they use now are directly weaker to someone else?

Luckily, enemies haven't gotten changed too much from when a weapon releases to when it gets powercreeped, but if the enemies get much stronger to compensate for the new weapons, we are getting into a cycle that makes hundreds of bad weapons and few good ones. I'm scared it will get to that point.

Warframe is a game about progression (no that's literally all it is about), so power creep is required. 

 

DE would have to substantially reword the game to curve players in another direction.

[BlackCoMerc]

9 hours ago, armedpoop said:

Heres the thing though: Why would you ever use or want to get another weapon if it was somehow weaker or the same as the one you are currently using? 

 

As the game progresses, new things that are added get stronger. If this didnt happen, the game would be pretty boring.

Of the weapons you listed, the newest gear is stronger. In the case of Despair vs Spira, the Despair is WAY older. So what if you spent alotta time getting stronger with that piece of gear? Ultimately you can still use that piece of gear, especially now since you really dont need THAT much power for any of the game's current content. 

I disagree completely that powercreep is bad in a PVE focused game, unless that powercreep gets to the point of blowing up the entire map or pressing one button to win. (then again thats not powercreep is it?)

And this is the mentality that will eventually kill the game.

Let me ask you another way: If you KNOW FOR A FACT That everything you obtain will eventually become obsolete when DE decides they want to sell more Plat, why would you EVER buy ANYTHING?

Is the concern about Power Creep making a little more sense now?

If you want your game to last - and I am not convinced DE does - then eventually, you have to create interesting play styles and side grades people will want, without obsoleting their favorite stuff.

Sure, you CAN do it your way, with blatant power creep. But you do that long enough, and people will just stop buying anything at all, because they already know it will be useless in a month or six. Oh...and you wont sell Forma, either, which I dont think they were selling anyway. Hence its prevalence from relics. Because why power up your current weapons? They will just be obsoleted in a few months and you will need to start the whole process over. 

How long do you do that, before most players get sick of it and just move on? Based on player numbers over a six month period, we've about reached that point.

[Teridax68]

9 hours ago, armedpoop said:

Heres the thing though: Why would you ever use or want to get another weapon if it was somehow weaker or the same as the one you are currently using? 

This isn't good reasoning because it means every new weapon release will inevitably make at least one older weapon obsolete, and therefore not worth playing other than for mastery ranking. This isn't good for us players, because we end up having our older weapons invalidated by power creep, but this is also terrible for DE, because it means they end up putting a ton of work into releasing weapons over time, only to end up offering a much smaller pool of truly viable weapons than what they've produced. It makes the game's content pool a lot shallower than it could otherwise be, and is detrimental to the game's health in the long run, because the game's environment ultimately ends up having its difficulty bumped up to match players' increase in strength, as has happened already, which creates additional barriers to entry and an increasingly large number of false, disappointing choices to newer players.

This is also poor reasoning because it implies that the only way to make a weapon interesting is to make it flat-out statistically stronger than its predecessors, and thereby completely ignores the concept of sidegrades. Even in the current state of the game, niche weapons like the Torid, the Quanta or the Ack & Brunt have their place because, despite being vastly outclassed by other weapons in most respects, they excel at something few to no other weapons can really provide. While I dislike the use of mods as fixes to unpopular weapons, the Rathuum/Kela de Thaym mods have given many older weapons strategic or playstyle niches they can fill better than anyone (The Jat Kittag is great for clearing groups of enemies by targeting heavy units first, for example). These differences can also be more subtle, e.g. the Vaykor Hek's larger magazine size versus the Sancti Tigris's bigger burst damage, and these tradeoffs are what I'd consider truly interesting when theorycrafting or choosing which weapon to equip, more so than number-crunching DPS comparisons. A few other games, TF2 for example, have proven that sidegrades can be both viable and immensely fun, and an ideal Warframe in which every weapon were a sidegrade would be a game with literally hundreds more interesting choices to make, one that would offer far more variety and freedom to its players, while also being much easier to maintain in a viable state of balance in the long run.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Teridax68

[GinKenshin]

if you use weapons because of how good their stats are then that's on you. you are not forced to use THE BEST, you should use WHAT YOU LIKE. what difference does it make when YOUR dakra prime kills enemies with 1 hits while broken war kills enemies in 1 hit? its yours, you forma the hell out of it, had good times with it....etc


if you just like to exchange your favortie weapons just like that because stronger ones are easier to get/more powerful, then that's completely on you. I have jat kittag, I have the heliocor (synoid soon), you don't see me selling my jat kittag, it looks awesome, the knock down is a lot of fun


what I mean is if you have a weapon you like, and it performs in a good way, keep it. if it doesn't not perform as good as you want it to be, or you don't like it anymore, then replace it, simple 

and that's not power creep, that's diversity, having swords with the same stats is boring, especially since melee is general don't have 'cool' mechanics like primaries and secondaries   

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

DE needs powercreep to survive. There's not a lot to do in this game other than farming stuff. If all the new stuff was the same as the old stuff, what reason would there be to farm/polarize new weapons and frames? There are a lot of things DE will change in the future, but this is not one of them.

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 hours ago, armedpoop said:

This is a fair point, but its kinda nulified by the nature of warframe itself. The progression requires you to use every piece of gear, weak or not. 

If there were a lot of "we's" in their response, I'd bet you'd say something along the lines of "Stop presuming to speak for the community, you only represent yourself."

Of course their perspective is going to be focused on their experience with the game and what they want from it. That's the point of feedback. With enough "I," DE will recognize it as a "we" eventually.

9 hours ago, armedpoop said:

This is a fair point, but its kinda nulified by the nature of warframe itself. The progression requires you to use every piece of gear, weak or not. 

If that's the case, wouldn't that kind of invalidate your "there's no motivation to progress if there are no stat differences" argument? If you have to use new weapons to progress regardless of how good they are... it shouldn't matter if the stats are better or not. It may influence which weapons you keep, but you'll still use the new stuff nonetheless.

The issue here is that there is supposed to be an end to progression. When there's a definitive end-point, your system makes sense. You get to the end-game gear, which is the best, and then you're done. The problem is the end is still very far off (MR 30 is impossible to reach, as you know) and what we have by MR 2 is already imbalanced for the toughest content available to us as players.

Right now, the power creep needs to stop. It is limiting the depth of gameplay available to us, and providing very temporary relief from the monotony of sitting near content completion. When we have a defined end-game level that is enforced effectively, THEN you can have your gear-based progression. At the same time, there should be a system in place to allow players to "break" the progression curve by grinding, and upgrade low-tier weapons to high-tier stats if they like them enough.

Make it so that simply getting a new weapon is a lot faster and more efficient, but make it possible to upgrade. Nothing sucks more than seeing your favorite gear fade into obsolete status.

[DSpite]

11 hours ago, Xamuswing said:

There is nothing more frustrating than investing time, energy, and potentially money into a weapon or other item only for a more powerful version to be released later that outclasses it in almost every way. I'm not talking about something like Primes, which unless bought take a very long time to obtain for all the parts and materials. No, I'm talking about weapons that get released to the market or rewarded in a quest that annihilate everything else in it's class. One of the biggest offenders of this, in general, is the melee weapon class.

You like the Dakra Prime right? Well, toss that crap into the furnace because you can get the new and improved Broken War for absolutely free if you call 1-800 SECOND DREAM, complete with a slot and catalyst. On top of being superior in damage, it's also the definitive sword to use in all cases, outclassing everything in the field.

Like Jat Kittag or Sibear? Again, just toss that into the trash, because the Heliocor has some of the highest dps of any melee weapon with a massive 25% crit chance and the highest damage of any hammer at 140 base damage.

Spent all that time to obtain the Despair? Boom, Spira. 25% crit vs 2.5% and is pretty easy to craft from the market.

I think you get the point. Completely invalidating a weapon with another is seriously harmful in the long-run. It's a massive problem in other MMOs like WoW or Neverwinter. It may incentivize getting new weapons, but it alienates players that may have taken a long time to get stronger with their current weapons. Why should they keep playing the endgame content if the weapons they use now are directly weaker to someone else?

Luckily, enemies haven't gotten changed too much from when a weapon releases to when it gets powercreeped, but if the enemies get much stronger to compensate for the new weapons, we are getting into a cycle that makes hundreds of bad weapons and few good ones. I'm scared it will get to that point.

I fail to see why you would care.

Are you seriously playing a game purely to pick whatever best DPS stick comes out or are you playing for fun? If you have this outlook of just chucking things away the moment something similar comes out with 10% better DPS, sounds to me you are playing for the wrong reasons.

I specifically joined a pretty loose Guild Wars 2 guild to play for fun, and not join "must be optimal at all costs or gtfo" because that is exactly the mentality that makes for no-fun-allowed gameplay.

There is times to go optimal and times to play for fun. You should do more of the latter.

 

 

[TaylorsContraction]

10 hours ago, Rekkou said:

It's easy to justify power creep if you are old players. But for new players, power creep works the other way around. New players get Spira, strive hard to defeat their first stalker and then they'll be disappointed to see the Despair they got is much weaker. They get broken war then disappointed that the rare unvaulted Dakra Prime is much weaker.

Older players got stronger weapons, but for newer players, all they get is more disappointment.

Power creep has its place but I think this sums up the problem with it nicely.

 

edit: This would be rectified with proper MR requirements. Then players HAVE to use the older weaker weapons to gain MR to unlock newer stronger weapons.

Edited August 14, 2016 by TaylorsContraction

[Tsunero]

No, it's not, if everything was equal there would be nothing to look forward to.

[RealPandemonium]

Power creep is bad not because it supplants older gear, but because it causes balance between players and enemies to go awry and ends up lowering freedom of equipment choice for no good reason.