How exactly can a weapon be abused? What makes abusing different from simply using?

[Gamekrazd]

Alls I see in this forum is "Stop having fun, guys."

Abusing a combo of weapon/frame synergies is part of the fun of warframe. Finding combinations you like, or that get the jobs done fast, is satisfying to do or learn

Any Finisher-opening ability + Covert Lethality daggers
Mirage's Hall of Mirrors/Malevolence + Syn Simulor
Mesa's Peacemaker + Limbo's Banish
Mag's Magnetize + Lanka
Nekros's Desecrate + Kohm/Sancti Tigris
Banshee's Resonance + Dread's insane crits
Any frame with Trinity Support

These are all just off the top of my head, but all of these could be considered abusable combinations. No matter what the skill level required to use them is, the common factor is that they trivialize an aspect of gameplay. Be it killing any number of insanely high level enemies instantaneously, killing tons of enemies at once, killing while invulnerable, dealing absurdly high DPS in an area of effect, creating massive amounts of drops, getting single shot damage in the literal millions, or allowing any frame to spam their abilities endlessly, you get the idea.

Abuse of synergies is just something you live with in any game, and everyone is guilty of some degree of it. Stop calling people out on it and start enjoying the game with the rest of us. Maybe you'll find that you enjoy some form of these synergies and begin abusing them yourself

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 minutes ago, Gamekrazd said:

Alls I see in this forum is "Stop having fun, guys."

That's basically what people are saying in a nutshell.

Oh but wait, they'll start claiming that they're only doing this because of "game balance".

[Xekrin]

1 minute ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

or play with friends

how, praytell, do we find these friends if we aren't allowed to find them in public?

2 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

I shouldn't be forced to play solo because I like playing public", you obviously don't,

I love playing pugs, please do not speak as if you know me or put words into my mouth, that is both selfish and arrogant.

4 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

you should have absolutely zero trouble taking out enemies before a Mirage, if you actually bother to put the effort in. 

Again, you speak as if you know how I play, you do not. And you try targeting something 15 - 40 meters away with spamulor spam every freaking where.  Seriouosly.  Stop pretending you know what I am thinking.  Thank you.

5 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

The Simulor is very limited in range you know.

No, really?  I clearly stated in my post about its range, did you even read what I wrote?

Seriously, I gave my opinion, there is absolutely no need for you to attack me at all. None.  No I do not like playing in squads with Mirage Spamulor or Ash and if I see those in a public group I join.  I leave.

I will not be forced to play solo or with a select group of people because people like you think it is just easier to segregate us from everyone else.  Do I expect other players to not use mirage? Nope. Not even once did I say that, claim it or infer it in any way.  I was replying to the OP of this thread, not whining that I wanted everyone to play my way or not play at all. As I already mentioned, if I see a frame combo I know will ruin my fun, I leave. I don't scream and rant at that player to play something else or play my way, I leave.

Just in case you didn't see it the first two times, I leave a mission if I dislike how things are going, I leave the mission and try again.  Just to be clear, I leave when I know someone is going to be annoying and detrimental to my gameplay or my forum discussions.

I leave.  Take care.

 

[Kasarian]

3 hours ago, LABAL said:

Sometimes player are, if not supposed, then, at least, expected to use stupidly overpowered combinations of weapons, abilities and mods to combat stupidly overpowered enemies and situations like -snip- level 9999 survivals [...].

That one was hilarious and super easy. Spam EV Str build as trin or use finisher oriented skills as: Ashe (either teleport or spam bladestorm), Excal (blind), Banshee (savage banshee) or use any other warframe with melee that knocks down enemies and melee finish them. There, you're killing enemies 9999 that do not inflict ANY damage to you...

 

Now, while I'm here, on the topic:

Someone said something like this in similar thread (i think it was about Tonkor): "If you think a given weapon is stupidly op - then that weapon needs a nerf."
In the context of Mirage+Simulor that's being brought up here often - I think she could use hardcap on % of her skills (same way we had Blessing nerfed) because most problems with weapons being op stem from the fact that she is just TOO convienient:
-4 distracting clones that increase damage as 1st skill
-Skill that gives enourmous damage reduction OR damage powerup
-ability that pre-nerf locked in cc huge space without effort while after nerf is still powerfull in open spaces

After that Simulor should have revised it's range and how it's working with some Warframe skills (in this case Mirage shouldn't be able to produce more than one orb at a click).
I mean, if her clones weren't a problem we wouldn't have a nerf/buff to Kohm (projectile->hitscan) or having only 2 clones produce proctiles (as Mirage+Tonkor also was a too popular combo).

[ashrah]

as long as u have fun all is good

[Redthirst]

7 minutes ago, LorianTheElderPrince said:

 

Well then my advise to both of you is to go solo or play with friends. Since the SOTR update there is literally no reason for anyone to play public now. You don't need to farm long term Void missions where you would need to team up with random people to get the best chance of survival. If you play public, you do it of your own accord and not out of necessity.

I know it may be unfamiliar, but you will encounter other human beings in public matches, who might actually have different ideas of fun than you. You can't go into a public game of your own will and expect everyone to play to your standards, that is both selfish and arrogant.

Before you think about uttering the same tired line of "oh but I shouldn't be forced to play solo because I like playing public", you obviously don't, because people don't play the way you want them to. Personally I don't play Mirage + Simulor because I find it boring, that doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and just whine about how they're getting all the kills and it doesn't mean I'm going to b***h and moan when other people use it. Live and let live.

Xekrin, you mention how a person with a Soma Prime could easily be outclassed by a Mirage with a Simulor. You do realise the Soma Prime is a rifle with infinitely better range right? In open maps you should have absolutely zero trouble taking out enemies before a Mirage, if you actually bother to put the effort in. The Simulor is very limited in range you know.

Redthirst, I suggest you get good. I have absolutely no problem matching a Mirage with a Simulor and believe me, I've had a few encounters. It all comes down to whether or not you have the mindset of a quitter or the mindset of a skilled player.

There's something seriously wrong with the co-op game if it forces people to play solo.

Your argument can also work for people who like using the meta stuff - since they obviously don't care about other people, they can play solo.

It's also not about keeping up. I don't care about kill counts and stuff like that. It's simply about the fact that content becomes trivial the moment someone starts using one of the meta weapons or Warframes. It's a co-op game. It's not about players competing for kills. It's about players combining their efforts to overcome whatever game throws at them. This all goes out of the window when someone uses one of the "I win" options and starts playing solo.

[Jakorak]

5 hours ago, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

I don't know why people complain about Mirage + Synoid, i personally enjoy it when i see Mirage in my group. I can slack and do nothing since i don't really care who will do the most damage or who will do the most kills because its stupid.

lol i love it when i go into a defense/mobiledefense/survival eximus stronghold sortie and find myself with a mirage+synoid. I just stare at her and know that if i hug her butt, i'll get roughly 3/4ths of my focus farm for the entire day done.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Jakorak

[SinergyX]

29 minutes ago, Gamekrazd said:

Alls I see in this forum is "Stop having fun, guys."

Abusing a combo of weapon/frame synergies is part of the fun of warframe. Finding combinations you like, or that get the jobs done fast, is satisfying to do or learn

Any Finisher-opening ability + Covert Lethality daggers
Mirage's Hall of Mirrors/Malevolence + Syn Simulor
Mesa's Peacemaker + Limbo's Banish
Mag's Magnetize + Lanka
Nekros's Desecrate + Kohm/Sancti Tigris
Banshee's Resonance + Dread's insane crits
Any frame with Trinity Support

These are all just off the top of my head, but all of these could be considered abusable combinations. No matter what the skill level required to use them is, the common factor is that they trivialize an aspect of gameplay. Be it killing any number of insanely high level enemies instantaneously, killing tons of enemies at once, killing while invulnerable, dealing absurdly high DPS in an area of effect, creating massive amounts of drops, getting single shot damage in the literal millions, or allowing any frame to spam their abilities endlessly, you get the idea.

Abuse of synergies is just something you live with in any game, and everyone is guilty of some degree of it. Stop calling people out on it and start enjoying the game with the rest of us. Maybe you'll find that you enjoy some form of these synergies and begin abusing them yourself

Several of those 'synergies' you actualy have to play proper to fully use it, Banshee you have to actualy hit the right spot, Mag is just a single target with a bitsy aoe, finisher+covert is 1 target at a time (animation delay), Mesa with the peacemaker chance you actualy get smaller window to open fire (and I would prefer a 3-shield volt or frost bubble anyway).

Mirage with Syn is a different story, you 'vaguely' shoot in a direction, the explosion alone already kills many and the orb left behind either picks up wandering mobs.

Same was said with Chrome, the massive weapon dmg increase, but you need to keep em up, you need to take damage and you need energy. The only original 'abuse' on Chrome was Sobek with the new mod, as that mod scaled with his damage (doesn't anymore, static 500 plus %HP now).

That's a huge difference with mirage/syn.

[Cyriann]

On my part "abuse" of a weapon/warframe/combo is something that takes the teamwork out of the game.

One of the best example I have in mind is how Valkyr could be joined by literally anyone in any survival and carry the job alone with four times the spawns she would have faced in solo. It is fun to witness when it is short lived, but in a long run it renders the game dull for the others.

In other words abuse is pretty much subjective to me, but it can become problematic when it is generalised to the point matchmade players avoid, or request specific loadouts of those squadmates that are dropped in the fight with them.

(kind of text wall but that is how I feel)

[taiiat]

the idea being knowing that a way to use something is not intended and in use is clear that it's something half a step short of cheating - and then using those things deliberately, fully knowing about it.

i.e. deliberately using/doing things which are not intended or break game logic in some way.

[Vohim]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Border-Zombie said:

60-year-old gamer here and let me just say that my reflexes are not as good as they used to be. I play solo most of the time because I play with the warframe and weapon combo I want to play with. I play to have fun and enjoy myself, so what if someone else gets more kills than you. I want everyone to have fun without having something to prove. Just remember you will be better than some but there will always be someone better, don’t blame it on gear…

but in  cases like  Mirage+ explosive weapon / Mirage+ Simulor   

 it is indeed all about the gear 

its like Ash's bladestorm they dont hate em cuz they get all the kills 

they hate them because it renders everyone else on the team useless and  prevents them from actually playing at all basically  

its gotten to a point where i have witnessed players actually leave their team mate die on purpose several times when they get downed  and i myself did it once  

 

if you're running mirage+ simulor combo at least be considerate and make your weapon energy  black color so   everyone else doesnt get bothered by the light cluster spam 

[Krion112]

I feel like players have a natural intuition for some elements of a game, but that more means they have the vague feeling something is wrong so they don't necessarily have the ability to put their issues into the correct terms. We call it 'abusing a weapon', but what we really mean is probably 'exploiting'.

I mean, how can we justify the lack of self-damage on the Tonkor with such high damage, when that risk of being too close is the entire balance behind 'Launcher' style weapons? If we look to the balance triangle of weapons, which states Shotgun > Pistol > Sniper > Shotgun,  which essentially translates to 'Close Range' beats 'Moderate Range', 'Moderate Range' beats 'Long Range', and 'Long Range' beats 'Close Range', the line that forms between Shotguns and Snipers creates Launchers, which are neither good at long range nor good at close range. For Visual Aid:

The reason being, is that launchers tend to have a charge-up time or self-damage to make up for this, as you can kill yourself or if it takes too long to prepare an attack, you're too vulnerable at close range. The Bow, despite people trying to compare it to Snipers, is a launcher weapon that demonstrates the ability to use this type at closer range than normally acceptable for launchers, but it takes significantly more finesse to make it successfully crowd-control. Likewise disk launchers, such as the Miter, also demonstrate this balance.

But, for example, the Tonkor has all the standard crowd-control of an explosive launcher, with all the flexibility of a disk launcher or bow, with excessively high damage. DE designed the Tonkor like this because it encourages aggressiveness and accentuates the Grineer faction's role of Offense; if you can't kill yourself with it, you're going to get in close to the enemy to use it. The issue is that it has no drawback, and weapons that don't have any drawbacks are the weapons we call out as being 'exploitable', that they trivialize the game due to their lack of balance. This also applies to Warframes.

I'm sure the intended drawback of the Tonkor was supposed to be poor ammo economy, but the ammo system has never been balanced and therefore this drawback is moot, which makes something also true for other situations in which we call out 'exploitation'; sometimes other systems of the game, or the lack thereof, leads to intended drawbacks in weapons to not be in effect.

For example, I see it all the time that Support styled Warframes, namely Oberon and Banshee, get called under-powered, but the true issue is that the Support role in game-design suggests you're enacting synergy with something else, but if the game elements you're currently playing with don't need or don't allow for synergy, the role can be seen as being near useless unless you use certain builds, most of which require more thought and effort than just ordinary offensive strategies. But this can mostly be attributed to the game lacking any methods of properly encouraging or allowing for extremist Support, Defense, and Control like it does for extremist Offense. There are some strategies that work for the other roles, but they're not as effective as always going Offense.

So yes, there is a difference between 'normal' use and this 'exploitation', it's just that most players will lean towards exploitation to get through content faster. And just using the Tonkor doesn't mean you're 'exploiting' the system, but it does mean you're using an imbalanced weapon that players commonly use for 'exploitation'.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Krion112

[Atlas.0-5]

1 hour ago, Redthirst said:

There's something seriously wrong with the co-op game if it forces people to play solo.

Your argument can also work for people who like using the meta stuff - since they obviously don't care about other people, they can play solo.

It's also not about keeping up. I don't care about kill counts and stuff like that. It's simply about the fact that content becomes trivial the moment someone starts using one of the meta weapons or Warframes. It's a co-op game. It's not about players competing for kills. It's about players combining their efforts to overcome whatever game throws at them. This all goes out of the window when someone uses one of the "I win" options and starts playing solo.

The minute a scoreboard shows up in a CO-OP game its no longer Cooperative

Sad but true.

 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Atlas.0-5

[Tain_OSkoom]

It really looks like it's all about a difference in emphasis. Everybody is looking to play the game and get the rewards. At one extreme, there are people who want to play badass space ninjas with guns and magic, and don't give a crap about the rewards. At the other extreme, there are those who only enjoy rewards, and see gameplay as a chore to be bypassed by any means.

Most people fall between the extremes. Though the people at the extreme ends tend to be noisy and incapable of understanding those they oppose.

[DxAdder]

11 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

Well, a good co-op game usually encourages players to cooperate. Of course, this is Warframe we're talking about, so...

When Im doing an Alert/Sortie im bring my A Game meta with me so I can get it over as fast as possible.

Im not there to take in the scenery, Im there to get the job done with the least effort required.

 

[Redthirst]

11 minutes ago, DxAdder said:

When Im doing an Alert/Sortie im bring my A Game meta with me so I can get it over as fast as possible.

Im not there to take in the scenery, Im there to get the job done with the least effort required.

 

But that's another problem with the game - high-level content is tedious and repetitive, as well as being generally balanced around OP weapons.

[FreezerFlare]

Simulor is made to do huge AOE damage.

Mirage is made to amplify a weapons power.

No "Abuse" is happening, it's all intentional mechanics of the game.

Hence why the only justified nerf was the headshots with explosion weapons, and that only happened because of argon scope.

[Iceheart125]

In my eyes, when one player can deal 80 to 90% of the killing, damage, and whatnot without much aiming, despite the other three being able to do much, despite their  best efforts,  I consider that to be an issue. Syniod mirages, when they run and press the fire button a bunch, and despite my efforts with even the sancti tigris and frost prime, or things like that, and I can't more than three or four kills through an entire run, that's off kilter.  

[Gamekrazd]

3 hours ago, SinergyX said:

Several of those 'synergies' you actualy have to play proper to fully use it, Banshee you have to actualy hit the right spot, Mag is just a single target with a bitsy aoe, finisher+covert is 1 target at a time (animation delay), Mesa with the peacemaker chance you actualy get smaller window to open fire (and I would prefer a 3-shield volt or frost bubble anyway).

Mirage with Syn is a different story, you 'vaguely' shoot in a direction, the explosion alone already kills many and the orb left behind either picks up wandering mobs.

Same was said with Chrome, the massive weapon dmg increase, but you need to keep em up, you need to take damage and you need energy. The only original 'abuse' on Chrome was Sobek with the new mod, as that mod scaled with his damage (doesn't anymore, static 500 plus %HP now).

That's a huge difference with mirage/syn.

First point: Note that I said -

3 hours ago, Gamekrazd said:

No matter what the skill level required to use them is, the common factor is that they trivialize an aspect of gameplay.

The point isn't that you have to "play proper" to use it, it's that it's highly abusable when used. Banshee's Resonance Sonar can still stack up literal millions of damage on a single Dread shot, Mag still creates a sizeable field of death that can explode for much greater power (I've seen it hit 6 digits in full crowds, compared to Banshee doing literal millions to single targets), and Mesa is still functionally invincible in the Rift Plane while able to do absurd damage through it. The point is that it still trivializes some aspect of gameplay when it's used in tandem.

Second point, I have done a little playtesting on this Mirage + Syn hypetrain, and there are two functional weaknesses: Syn's range and Mirage's low HP. Combine these with high volumes of Grineer guns and Fire, the good ol Isolator Bursa or Sapper fields, or even one stray shot at a high enough level, she won't live long enough to get close. Her 4 is the reason she even gets this, and there you have to buff your Range and choose between tanking Duration or even more frailty.

Third point is one I could concede, I played Chroma pretty heavily back then, so I knew the potency of Vex Armor, though I never had Acid Shells back then so I can't comment on that. I still make it work pretty well today, and it's one I could concede is hard to abuse, but not impossible with self-harming weapons and some form of healing support (Trin, Oberon, Health Restores, etc). Even then, you're down a weapon, so you better hope the other weapons you bring can back up the lost one used to abuse Vex Armor.

Mirage and Syn may be a little braindead easy, but it still has notable weaknesses that will get such a player killed if they don't mind them. The same is true of all these "First Order Optimal (FOO) Strategies." They're disproportionately powerful, but they tend to have a crux that will be the death of the player if they grow too reliant on it. In this case, Low range, high frailty. In CL's case, you're alot slower in group clears. In Banshee's case, effectiveness is solely based on the ability to aim for the glow points. 

But are you really going to get upset at something that makes a game a little easier for other players who may struggle to keep up without these potent combos? Or throw a tantrum at enterprising allies just making full use of the tools the game itself gives to them? That'd be like getting slapped because you use the Soma Prime, an "easy win" gun with crazy damage scaling on crits, great fire rate, the best Physical damage type, and an absurd clip that you hardly ever need to reload compared to any other gun, or the Sancti Tigris, the literally highest damaging gun in the game, also with the ever potent Slash damage, quick reloads for 2-shot clips, and a Corrosive wave proc that also heals the user for a significant chunk of their HP if they get enough Affinity, which isn't hard at all with such a potent gun.

[Taramafor]

10 hours ago, PrimeDCookieMonstah said:

I can slack and not play at all

Pointed out the fatal flaw in your argument.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Gamekrazd said:

That'd be like getting slapped because you use the Soma Prime, an "easy win" gun with crazy damage scaling on crits, great fire rate, the best Physical damage type, and an absurd clip that you hardly ever need to reload compared to any other gun, or the Sancti Tigris, the literally highest damaging gun in the game, also with the ever potent Slash damage, quick reloads for 2-shot clips, and a Corrosive wave proc that also heals the user for a significant chunk of their HP if they get enough Affinity, which isn't hard at all with such a potent gun.

None of those weapons make it difficult for other players to play. They are strong but don't get in the way of the rest of the squad playing as well. Haven't you noticed how many people complain that the synoid mirage combo makes it hard for them to play at all? Especially when they just spam vortices everywhere with no regard to where the enemies are and don't have the common decency to blow up the vortices on a regular basis.

There's nothing wrong with using frost bubbles, right? And I can place them anywhere I want. So what's wrong with putting them in doorways so that they block your shots? After all, *I'M* having fun, and I'm just using the tools the game gave me! If I enjoy blocking everyone's fire with snowglobes then who are you to tell me to stop having fun? After all, it's a PVE game!

See the problem yet?

[Vyra]

i think some people are just tired of seeing the same few weapons in every match.
while there are "style based" really cool weapons ... TONS of them.. the really useful is only a hand full... and seeing only them makes one think they are being overused or abused.

but is is completely DEs fault... they make cool guns but the cool guns then are weaker than some other weapons...

lets get this straight.. i love flux rilfe, supra and other "cyber" guns... but i somehow "have to" use tonkor or tigris in specific missions...or else i am less effective...

this is really bad game design.. i hope this will change.. and i hope they will make weapons like flux rifle and that ice gun more useable/strong...

[Taramafor]

Personally I'm more miffed by the people mindlessly spamming quick attack and leaving before even 20 mins on survival or wave 20 on defence. I play for more then farming, I want my enemies to put up a fight.

[Vyra]

3 minutes ago, Taramafor said:

Personally I'm more miffed by the people mindlessly spamming quick attack and leaving before even 20 mins on survival or wave 20 on defence. I play for more then farming, I want my enemies to put up a fight.

well some of us only need specific items, why would we risk/stay longer if we have lots of other stuff to do ? =P

[Taramafor]

7 minutes ago, Vyra said:

well some of us only need specific items, why would we risk/stay longer if we have lots of other stuff to do ? =P

For the sense of accomplishment of knowing there was a risk and you overcame the odds. That and higher rewards. Saw a leech ospray on the 20 min mark on a low level corpus survival (It drops a rare glaive mod. The ospray itself is just as rare). And for axi relics by staying longer in other areas.

Not to mention staying keeps me in the zone and it also means more loot drops. Restarting just takes me out of the zone, not to mention the enemies are pansies once more and not even worth fighting. Meaning little reason to even play. We are modding out frames for a reason, right? Why even do that if we don't stick around long enough to put our stuff to good use?

But mainly it's for the fun factor. Stay a while, Kill a lot. Do it together and have a blast. Etc. You know, actually playing instead of mindlessly farming.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Taramafor