Nullifiers the death of WF

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

5 hours ago, Insizer said:

I use the Quanta Vandel as my main weapon, I know how easily the bubble evaporate. But I do believe that the idea of nullifying our abilities, evaporating our defensive structures, being able to shield allied enemies from our abilities and the like is a good thing. I'm not arguing that nullies are perfect, the damage cap needs to be tweaked to work better (without making a mod to do it).

I think it has it's place, but is way to common now.  For example after DE does w/e changes they are going to make to nullifiers, I want sniper-only nullifiers sorties to still work the way they do now.  I would prefer if nullifiers were reworked into a mini-boss unit that only spawned occasionally.  I don't think It should be a run of the mill thing.

1 hour ago, Sebrent said:

there is nothing to make me stop my 4-spam, AOE spam, or whatever other spam

There is something to stop you.  You.

[Sebrent]

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01 By that horrible logic, I can be stopped from beating any video game by simply not playing it.

Creating a challenge for yourself is not the same as being challenged. I could play my kids at some sport and tie my arms and legs together so I can hardly move so they have a chance. I may still beat them depending on the sport. That is not very rewarding.

Instead of you asking the developers to change the direction they are currently going and people that enjoy it to "tie their hands", we are asking the rest of you to play intelligently and learn to adapt ... or go to a game designed to not require you to ever need to do those things.

Obviously the current direction is working so far ... 3 years running, Tennocon a success, no continuous trend downwards in number of players, etc., etc..

Honestly, most of the people complaining about nullifiers seem like the same people that complain that the Dark Souls games are "too hard", "unforgiving", etc.. It seems rather ridiculous.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sebrent

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

8 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01 By that horrible logic, I can be stopped from beating any video game by simply not playing it.

Creating a challenge for yourself is not the same as being challenged. I could play my kids at some sport and tie my arms and legs together so I can hardly move so they have a chance. I may still beat them depending on the sport. That is not very rewarding.

Instead of you asking the developers to change the direction they are currently going and people that enjoy it to "tie their hands", we are asking the rest of you to play intelligently and learn to adapt ... or go to a game designed to not require you to ever need to do those things.

Obviously the current direction is working so far ... 3 years running, Tennocon a success, no continuous trend downwards in number of players, etc., etc..

Honestly, most of the people complaining about nullifiers seem like the same people that complain that the Dark Souls games are "too hard", "unforgiving", etc.. It seems rather ridiculous.

I love how you assume I hate nullifiers because I am incompetent.  The fact you can't see it any other way makes it so we can't have a discussion.  Before nullifiers were a thing the game was more fun.  If you wanted to you could choose to use a frame that 4 spammed or you could choose any of the other frames that didn't.  Even if you chose the nuker you didn't have to build for the nuke.  That is not the same as handicapping yourself.

The 'there is nothing to make me stop X' argument is the same argument people use to blame McDonalds for making them fat.  The fact you can't find an enjoyable way to play the game without the Devs forcing you to play a certain way is no one's fault but your own.

The game was more fun when we had more options.

[Sebrent]

@(PS4)Final_Dragon01

Do a search for the word "incompetent". It's not found my post. Reply to what people actually say ... not what you imagine they say. Sadly, this isn't the first time we've had this conversation on the forums.

I also never said that I don't see any other way. I did point out that you're asking both the developers and a decent chunk of the playerbase to adapt because you refuse to.

Yes, I can choose to limit myself. That isn't the issue. I covered this with the example "tying my hands". That is not nearly as fun as trying to squeeze more performance out of something so that you can overcome a challenge. It's the difference between Dark Souls being difficult even with some of the best pieces of gear and a decent Soul Level and Dark Souls being made easy unless you run around naked. Go tell the Dark Souls developers to make their game easy and explain that those who still want a challenge can simply run around naked. I doubt you will as that is a ridiculous thing to do.

What "more options" did you have? Taking two weapons that are both slow RoF and refusing to melee enemies?

Your definition of "more options" seems more along the lines of "I can take whatever I want and still win". That's counter-intuitive to requesting/requiring that players play intelligently and adapt.

[Ogarra_Remaellus]

shoot at the nullys bubble, it will shrink, one shot to the crewman will kill him... Problem solved

Edited August 31, 2016 by remsellis

[Squick]

My only real issues with nullifiers is that in things like today's sortie there are no limits to the number of them that can spawn, and somehow they can have void powers. Arctic nullifiers are incredibly frustrating in groups and make no sense from a lore standpoint. At one point we had 6 of these in our sortie mission, supported by 3 other eximus nullifiers, making moving around almost impossible, much less taking them out. I don't typically have a big problem with them but there are many situations where they can get out of hand.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

20 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

Do a search for the word "incompetent". It's not found my post. Reply to what people actually say ... not what you imagine they say. Sadly, this isn't the first time we've had this conversation on the forums.

I also never said that I don't see any other way. I did point out that you're asking both the developers and a decent chunk of the playerbase to adapt because you refuse to.

Yes, I can choose to limit myself. That isn't the issue. I covered this with the example "tying my hands". That is not nearly as fun as trying to squeeze more performance out of something so that you can overcome a challenge. It's the difference between Dark Souls being difficult even with some of the best pieces of gear and a decent Soul Level and Dark Souls being made easy unless you run around naked. Go tell the Dark Souls developers to make their game easy and explain that those who still want a challenge can simply run around naked. I doubt you will as that is a ridiculous thing to do.

What "more options" did you have? Taking two weapons that are both slow RoF and refusing to melee enemies?

Your definition of "more options" seems more along the lines of "I can take whatever I want and still win". That's counter-intuitive to requesting/requiring that players play intelligently and adapt.

With reguards to your first line, you said:

59 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

Honestly, most of the people complaining about nullifiers seem like the same people that complain that the Dark Souls games are "too hard", "unforgiving", etc.. It seems rather ridiculous.

That's about as close to as saying 'Git Gud' as you can get without actually say it.  Also, telling me to 'play intelligently and adapt' is the same thing as calling me incompetent.    Own your words.

 

Somehow you keep coming back to this notion that nullifiers = challenge/difficulty.  That's just not true.  Nullifiers = lack of freedom.

I want a real challenge.  I don't think I will ever get that challenge while people keep saying nullifiers require players to play 'intelligently'.

[RealPandemonium]

14 minutes ago, Squick said:

My only real issues with nullifiers is that in things like today's sortie there are no limits to the number of them that can spawn, and somehow they can have void powers. Arctic nullifiers are incredibly frustrating in groups and make no sense from a lore standpoint. At one point we had 6 of these in our sortie mission, supported by 3 other eximus nullifiers, making moving around almost impossible, much less taking them out. I don't typically have a big problem with them but there are many situations where they can get out of hand.

Only problem with Nullifiers in Sorties is that level 70+ enemies do way too much damage and just 1shot you if you don't cheese them with powers.  That's just highlighting how broken 70+ is, rather than a problem with the Nullifiers themselves.  

[k05h]

9 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Wrong. Again.

Because playing against Nullifiers us the same. Every time.

Just hold down Fire until bubble poos. Repeat.

Every. Singe. Time.

I think you should play todays sortie 2. It is a Corpus survival and it is full of nullifier. They come in groups with overlapping bubbles and have - for your pleasure - some artic eximus bubbles mixed in. You burn through a Soma P magazine and there is still one bubble left. Once you have 5 or 6 of them stacked it is a death trap for anyone who dares to jump in. Rhino, Ash and Valkyr lay dying in that bubble trap and me Frosty could do nothing. - We can handle a room full of enemies but even the toughest frames cannot bring down a "herd" of bubbles because these bubble carrier will never come alone.

[RealPandemonium]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

With reguards to your first line, you said:

That's about as close to as saying 'Git Gud' as you can get without actually say it.  Also, telling me to 'play intelligently and adapt' is the same thing as calling me incompetent.    Own your words.

 

Somehow you keep coming back to this notion that nullifiers = challenge/difficulty.  That's just not true.  Nullifiers = lack of freedom.

I want a real challenge.  I don't think I will ever get that challenge while people keep saying nullifiers require players to play 'intelligently'.

With due respect, once p4tw comes into play, it becomes the only thing that matters.  Telling others to "play the way they want" in a 4 player matchmade coop game is a fallacy when one person can step into the mission and instantly make enemies irrelevant forever.  Its similar to the Tonkor lobby telling others to just use what they want, as if a 200k AOE weapon is perfectly fine and doesn't trivialize the mission for everyone involved.

These arguments always boil down to one side advocating for interesting gameplay while the other side insists on a smooth grind being more important than gameplay quality.  Warframe is more than a mobile-game-style slot machine, it's more than WoW in space, it's more than a cheap power fantasy.  Warframe is supposed to be an engaging action game with a large degree of customization and a fun game engine.  PVE balance and a range of challenging content are required for Warframe to reach its potential as an action game.  We should not be indulging in the balance nightmare that DE spun out of neglect and lack of insight into their own game.  P4TW, lootcaves, afk farming, and game-trivialization are all toxic distractions from where Warframe's real potential lies: fast-paced action and content diversity.  

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

So your goal is to whine about them until someone listens?

You actually want to clog up the forums so the forums are unusable until you get what you want?

I am having an robust internal discussion right now trying to determine if the warning point is worth telling you exactly how you are acting. 

Nice troll logic I guess? I've been moderated for ages now. I can't post anything that's not allowed /approved by DE forum rules.

It doesn't take much research to realise that majority of players would want nullifiers gone or reworked. So yes, they should keep posting. That's what brought attention to afk frost globe strategy. 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

3 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

With due respect, once p4tw comes into play, it becomes the only thing that matters.  Telling others to "play the way they want" in a 4 player matchmade coop game is a fallacy when one person can step into the mission and instantly make enemies irrelevant forever.  Its similar to the Tonkor lobby telling others to just use what they want, as if a 200k AOE weapon is perfectly fine and doesn't trivialize the mission for everyone involved.

These arguments always boil down to one side advocating for interesting gameplay while the other side insists on a smooth grind being more important than gameplay quality.  Warframe is more than a mobile-game-style slot machine, it's more than WoW in space, it's more than a cheap power fantasy.  Warframe is supposed to be an engaging action game with a large degree of customization and a fun game engine.  PVE balance and a range of challenging content are required for Warframe to reach its potential as an action game.  We should not be indulging in the balance nightmare that DE spun out of neglect and lack of insight into their own game.  P4TW, lootcaves, afk farming, and game-trivialization are all toxic distractions from where Warframe's real potential lies: fast-paced action and content diversity.  

P4tw is still in play.  Nullifiers did nothing to stop that.  They just made several of the things I used to like, that were NOT meta, no longer truly viable.

I agree with you except with how you believe nullifiers affect the situation.  Nullifiers solved none of those problems and reduced content diversity.

Like I said I want a real challenge.  My preferred form of this challenge would be mini-bosses that spawned every 3-5 mins, that took about 45 seconds to kill without using immunity phases.  I do not want to start a discussion over a potential solution because that distracts from the point that nullifiers need to change.  However, I don't like getting lumped in with the 'smooth grinding over quality gameplay group' since that is not what I am advocating.

[RealPandemonium]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

P4tw is still in play.  Nullifiers did nothing to stop that.  They just made several of the things I used to like, that were NOT meta, no longer truly viable.

I agree with you except with how you believe nullifiers affect the situation.  Nullifiers solved none of those problems and reduced content diversity.

Like I said I want a real challenge.  My preferred form of this challenge would be mini-bosses that spawned every 3-5 mins, that took about 45 seconds to kill without using immunity phases.  I do not want to start a discussion over a potential solution because that distracts from the point that nullifiers need to change.  However, I don't like getting lumped in with the 'smooth grinding over quality gameplay group' since that is not what I am advocating.

And if slow rof weapons were just as good as fast rof weapons at clearing bubbles?  

I have said it repeatedly: fast-firing weapons are too good against bubbles while slow-firing weapons struggle with them.  Bring them both to a happy medium so that we don't have to tailor our loadout for one enemy type.  

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

8 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

And if slow rof weapons were just as good as fast rof weapons at clearing bubbles?  

I have said it repeatedly: fast-firing weapons are too good against bubbles while slow-firing weapons struggle with them.  Bring them both to a happy medium so that we don't have to tailor our loadout for one enemy type.

That would be a step in the right direction, but there were several less popular warframe builds that I used to like as well like sonar banshee.  The only way I can see to make them viable again would be to dump the idea of widespread power negation.  Occasional power negation is acceptable, but it should be a huge event like a mini-boss with a 45m radius nully shield.

[Sebrent]

You can read into what I say as much as you want ... reading something as "git gud" when I say I think something is ridiculous is a stretch though. I think it's ridiculous because it is arguing against the direction the game's owners/developers are obviously aiming for.

If nullifiers aren't enough difficulty for you, suggest what would add difficulty ... don't simply suggest removing one of the current implementations for creating some difficulty. I think nullifiers mixed in with dangerous groups of enemies presents a fun scenario that can be truly challenging.

 

Looking at what you all have recently said ... instead of getting rid of nullifiers:

• Normalize the effects of slow RoF and high RoF weapons on the Nullifier bubble
  • Make it based off damage
  • or just aid the single-target, slow RoF weapons which generally have punch through anyways ... so possibly leverage that
    • This prevents AoE one-shot spam ... going back to what has been said about Tonkor
    • This benefits bows / snipers but not AOEs ... misses shotguns and some slower RoF players w/o punch through though.
• Tweak how often they can spawn in a given area or at a given time?

That would make you happy?

One other suggestion I've seen and thought interesting has been:

• Abilities are still negated while inside the bubble and abilities cannot affect targets inside the bubble
• But abilities are not removed by being touched by the bubble
  • Instead, there is also a periodic "pulse" inside the bubble that performs the actual removal
    • This allows players to time their "dives" into the bubble to remove nullifiers via melee without having to always have their "buffs" removed.

I thought that was clever. The only challenge I see would depend on how abilities/buffs are currently coded, but perhaps DE could add a flag of some sorts to them so that they can still be on a warframe/target/etc. but not be in effect as opposed to right now where they are either there or not.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

8 minutes ago, Sebrent said:

Looking at what you all have recently said ... instead of getting rid of nullifiers:

• Normalize the effects of slow RoF and high RoF weapons on the Nullifier bubble
  • Make it based off damage
  • or just aid the single-target, slow RoF weapons which generally have punch through anyways ... so possibly leverage that
    • This prevents AoE one-shot spam ... going back to what has been said about Tonkor
    • This benefits bows / snipers but not AOEs ... misses shotguns and some slower RoF players w/o punch through though.
• Tweak how often they can spawn in a given area or at a given time?

That would make you happy?

One other suggestion I've seen and thought interesting has been:

• Abilities are still negated while inside the bubble and abilities cannot affect targets inside the bubble
• But abilities are not removed by being touched by the bubble
  • Instead, there is also a periodic "pulse" inside the bubble that performs the actual removal
    • This allows players to time their "dives" into the bubble to remove nullifiers via melee without having to always have their "buffs" removed.

Yes, these changes would mitigate the negative effect of nullifiers.  I particularly like the pulse idea.  I would stop complaining.  However, I would still want nullifiers to become something more interesting but I would stop complaining.

This might be more interesting:

Spoiler

Another possible solution would be getting rid of the shield and replacing it with a void emp cannon.  The nullies themselves would be power immune all the time(or until the emp cannon was destroyed?), and have the durability of a tech.  They would every so often they would shoulder their emp cannon and fire a shot that propagated in a cone like frost's ice wave, but slower.  A player what was hit by this cannon would have all active abilities canceled including snow globes and specters, and would be prevented from using powers for 10-20 seconds after the fact.  Abilities like snowglobe or a specter would take large amounts of damage but not be canceled out right unless the casting player was hit.  The shot would penetrate walls and travel 50 meters.  Nullies would fire the shot at the first tenno who tried to use an ability on them when the cannon was not on cooldown.  I like this solution because it allows players to dodge, and it encourages tactical awareness.  It would also feel far more active than the passive abilities of combas and nullies.  It also punishes p4tw and campers without ruining much else.  Banshee and mesa would be out of luck since their ults root them in place, but that's something that needs to change anyway.

I have posted several such solutions in their own threads, since posting them here usually changes to discussion the merits of a particular solution and away from w/e OP was talking about.  I like the mini boss every 3-5 mins idea and I like changing survival into a real survival mode where you struggle against an unkillable monster for as long as you can.  I support a balance pass that squishes stats for both us and enemies, so neither side ever one-shots the other in a normal situation.  There are tones of things better and more interesting than the current implementation of nullifiers.

[Scar.Heart]

I've stated this before in another thread some time ago:: Nullifiers were made to answer the press-4-to-win gameplay DE created.

Instead of fixing the core problems (press button, win game), DE opted for a band-aid solution, which, to no surprise, didn't fix the core problems.

 

On 8/30/2016 at 5:50 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

I'm just gonna leave this here...

 

Lovely. This person knows what's up.

 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

On 8/30/2016 at 9:55 PM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Nullifiers have gotten a buff, now they instantly kill snow globe among completely trashing all other abilities. They are ridiculously op. Warframe is fun because of powers and abilities...if i wanted to play a 3rd person shooter...i would play destiny.

 

Plz nerf nullys.

So you are afraid to loose yr snow globe?

Simple, shoot the nullifier before he reaches u. at least to remove his bubble then use yr power to kill him

I have been reading a lot lately about this issue and frankly i don't see it a problem, it's more challenging.

You don't have to be that strong to win, just play smart

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

In my opnion, somekinds of weapons like a snipers , bows and opticor , need be innature by pass agains this shields , some guys saying " use rifles " ok, this work in low lvls, against strong nullies this not work , lost lot time and bullets shooting in bobbles 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)xKAIOWAx said:

In my opnion, somekinds of weapons like a snipers , bows and opticor , need be innature by pass agains this shields , some guys saying " use rifles " ok, this work in low lvls, against strong nullies this not work , lost lot time and bullets shooting in bobbles 

Try Kulstar, it removes the bubble in 2 shots.

PS: don't shoot it directly, shoot the roof or the floor next to it. Instead of having 3 grenades (split chamber), you will end up having 9 explosive fragments hitting the bubble from all side.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

On 8/30/2016 at 2:22 PM, IceColdHawk said:

Inaros' scarab armor. Chromas buffs. Frosts snowglobe. Titanias tributes. Rhinos iron skin. I could go on. Instantly deleting stacked abilities is the epitome of true cheapness. You can't just simply recast them.

Eh, my Chroma can recast his abilities at any given moment to the point I will dive into a bubble with my spin to win heavy sword. When my buffs last as long as a minute, Chroma is using Zenurik + Rage, even with negative Efficiency it is highly rare for me to never have energy. You only need to lose 400 shields, and 100 HP for Vex to full buff you. My Sentinel (when I bring it, been using my Kavats a lot lately, even for sorties) refreshes the shields, my HP is easy to get to again from my last buff being down. Back to full power shortly after losing it. Arcane Grace, Medi-Ray, and maaayyybbee spin to win lifestrike and I am back to 100%. 

 

So, here is a Chroma user saying, Eh, I dislike Nullifers but they don't "destroy" me as you seem to imply just because they removed my Elemental Ward and Vex Armor. I honestly get more annoyed with allies dying in horrible places, with no revives left on them until reset, with not enough time to kill everything by them. That annoys me more than any Nullifer will. That, and Ramparts.  Hell, I would  say this round of Sorties would have been easier on my Chroma to face than when we had Grineer augmented with Corrosive damage. That ate my armor alive, and from hitscan weapons? Ouch, just ouch lol.

Edited September 1, 2016 by (PS4)FunyFlyBoy

[Chewarette]

Imo, Nullifiers are not a big issue. The problem is when you have 50 nullifiers at the same place, like in today's sortie 2. You cannot slide to zerg him inside his bubble as there are 20 overlapping bubbles blocking your hits.

The fact that they're a bit overpowered is not a big deal as long as we don't have 20 of them.

[Troll_Logic]

18 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Nice troll logic I guess? I've been moderated for ages now. I can't post anything that's not allowed /approved by DE forum rules.

No "troll logic"  Your words.

On 8/31/2016 at 10:03 AM, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Yes, we do. By many different people to the point of forums being unusable for any other discussion. Because that may finally get them to remove nullifiers from the game. 

Again, your words.  Not mine.  Not my inference.  Your words.

18 hours ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

It doesn't take much research to realise that majority of players would want nullifiers gone or reworked.

You really have no idea of how things work do you?

WF is huge.  Huge.

A tiny percentage of the players even visit the forums.

A smaller percentage even goes to the trouble of posting messages.

An even smaller percentage of those forum members constantly whine about nullifiers.

So your "majority of players" is, and I'm guessing, probably less than a thousandth of one percent.  If that high.

[NightElve]

On 8/30/2016 at 8:03 PM, yual said:

Null are the only way to stop Cheeze frame like valkyrs, Ash and many other.

Also, u can use a rifle to stop them before they touch ur snowglobe.

if you did a bit more digging you would understand that Nullifiers are DE's mistake that they still don't accept, and it's all tied to a huuuuge mess! All this cheese frames, overpowered weapons like Tonkor only get to that level because of mods, that DE keep pumping out for the sake of keeping the player base active while maintaining a constant sink-hole of resources, there is no single frame that can cheese anything in this game, it's the players who invest heavily in those set ups just for DE to nerf everything down again, instead of DE  making a logical step and fix their game core mechanics instead of aimlessly/lazily placing patch up bandages to a bigger issue, the amount of manly hours that a player invests to get their gear to those levels and then ending up fighting this kind of enemies like nullifiers in a cheesy manner is down right disrespectful to the players time. DE themselves introduced this power creep issues in the game and bandaged them with Nullifiers, and it's still upto them to fix everything.

[Troll_Logic]

11 minutes ago, NightElve said:

if you did a bit more digging you would understand that Nullifiers are DE's mistake that they still don't accept, and it's all tied to a huuuuge mess! 

Many players don't view nullifiers as a mistake.