Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[NativeKiller]

Innate vacuum with toggle options for all companions, simple enough, right?

 

Aaaaaand instead of that D.E somehow got the brilliant idea to turn a very popular QoL mod "Vacuum" into THREE DIFFERENT mods.

 

Now we will need THREE mod slots to accomplish what needed just ONE mod slot!

 

Oh wows, color me impressed, so much creativity, D.E!

 

...I want some of the stuff that they were smoking when they came up with this genius idea. :3

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by NativeKiller

[Neear]

So im guessing someone closed my thread that contained my poll so instead of making another thread I'll just post the link to the poll i created to get more peoples opinions here.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/8WNPR36

[(PSN)Cynicaid]

It would be better if they just deleted the mod outright and made its effect inherent to the Warframes themselves. To hell with it being a "companion" effect.

[Flying_Jimbus]

Okay so I was defending DE on Reddit, but the self-righteous mods over there banned me because unless youre circle jerking to hating on this game over there you get banned. Any who, all you kids complaining they did the vacuum change "wrong" YOU DONT MAKE THE BLOODY GAME. I am so sick of everyone saying "let us help you" "we know how to do this change so much better" heres a tip: IF YOU THOUGHT OF IT, THEY PROBABLY THOUGHT OF IT TOO AND AS GAME DESIGNERS DIDNT LIKE THE OUTCOME. THEY are the ones who make the game, they have more experience with this sort of thing than you.  They didnt even NEED to make vacuum universal, but they did. Every time I go on that sub-reddit its just a bunch of whiny kids wanting some irrelevant QoL change that would save practically NO time or hate on a recent update or a recent topic of buffs/nerfs to certain things. It feels like most of them dont really like the game but spend so much time in to forcing themselves to like it.  Anywho, stop complaining, and be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.  

Sincerely, someone who has played this game over 3 years with minimal to no complaints.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Handsome_Jon

[(PSN)nebulazater]

for the most part happy with the change although wish they had just made it universal vs splitting into 3 nerf.

[venon23]

well dont realy care about that never use carrier that much and lack of matrials is something i dont have 
but i know lot of ppl wanted that change so is fine for me

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

Since moderators decided to merge a meta complaint thread with a megathread my comment no longer applies.

Edited September 17, 2016 by (PS4)B0XMAN517
Moderators

[ScorpioneITA]

How is this constructive in anyway?

Also people should be able to voice their opinions. (long as they aren't offensive etc about it) I think this is only a buff and don't get why people complain, but some will always find a reason to complain.

Quote

They didnt even NEED to make vacuum universal, but they did

No they didn't. It's just for sentinel. You should see the definition of universal

Edited September 17, 2016 by ScorpioneITA

[ComfyOlivia]

delete this please. Wanted a non-feedbacky discussion, but merge. No point now.

Edited September 17, 2016 by CoRRh
\mods merged despite separate topics, so no need for this to exist now

[JohnViande]

21 minutes ago, Handsome_Jon said:

They didnt even NEED to make vacuum universal, but they did.

Did I miss a recent change? Last time I checked vacuum was still for carrier only.

[Hemmo67]

soooo OP are you against or on the side of universal vacuum? :l

kinda hard to understand with how you swap from topic to topic c.c

[Flying_Jimbus]

1 minute ago, Hemmo67 said:

soooo OP are you against or on the side of universal vacuum? :l

kinda hard to understand with how you swap from topic to topic c.c

I dont care what they do to vacuum, Im AGAINST the side of people who cry about everything DE tried to do in this game.

[MiroJx]

Loot collecting in WF is wired enough for a fast pace shooter. Its almost impossible to collect all loots while stay with the pack and now the carrier is the only solution for this. 

Splitting the vacuum into 3 mods definitely is not a good idea.  If universal vacuum has to come with price (but why?) then nerf the range or increase the cost . 

[JShield]

Because having stuff that I don't use get removed and watching the salt spew from the forums is funny as hell.

 

I have a few other minor gripes like items floating in the air from other carrier users but yes, this is legitimately the reason why I personally want vacuum removed. Sue me.

[DEADSHOT456]

So, you got banned on a forum and therefore you felt the need to come to another forum to validate your reasons. Do you not have anything better to do?

[Gelkor]

12 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

So, there is a lot of opposition to the proposed vacuum changes, as is obvious. A lot of the opposition mentions universal vacuum. With this, there are of course people who disagree with Universal Vacuum. So, I have this question for those of you who don't agree with Universal Vacuum:

 

What issues do you have with Universal Vacuum?

 

I want this discussion to be clean and not meta-complaint-y. If it starts getting out of hand, I'll just have it locked, so please be objective.

I, myself, will remain neutral, but I will ask questions if I see holes in logic. 

I don't think anyone has an issue with universal vacuum, they have issues with universal vacuum being split into 3 parts. A Lot of people are feeling like it's a monkey's paw scenario, they got what they asked for, but "in the worst way possible."

Idunno, I only use it for energy when I do use it, so it doesn't affect me.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Gelkor

[XerenKelDar]

Splitting Vaccum into three seperate mods to achieve the same result is a terrible, terrible idea.  This is a negative player experience that would exist only to harass and annoy people. 

[ranks21]

just for this year (within the past 2 years) I would love to see DE make a logical step that will make the game actually fun to play, just once. this latest proposal to vacuum truly solidified my thoughts that they truly don't know what they are doing.

instead of building up on what is already established and working (only needs refining) they completely abandoned and start again another  (unfinished) project..yeah so much for believing in getting better.

[notlamprey]

I think this is another short-sighted idea.

Carrier and Vacuum are not so big a problem that we need to risk cutting player Quality of Life across the board. Are they hurting player retention, or DE's bottom line? Could they possibly be doing so much damage that risking a major hit to player QoL is necessary?

Honestly, I think we ought to just do away entirely with needing to pick up loot. If it isn't ammunition or an orb, just put it straight into player inventory.

We don't need sparkles all over the play field to make loot acquisition exciting or meaningful. The UI itself can be improved to display loot acquisition in a way that feels fun and informs the player about what has been found. We already have that little loot crawler at bottom center screen, and some types of loot are already displayed in detail when picked up.

I think it's time DE re-evaluated the chore that is collecting loot, and I think it's also time that players stopped arguing over who is best at tolerating the chore.

[mostlyerror]

From DE directly:

"What we're playing with right now is this idea: Vacuum will be transformed into 3 new mods that can be used by any sentinel, with 3 different types of Vacuum:

· Health and Energy

· Credits and Ammo

· Mods, Endo, and Resources/Miscellaneous"

 

Please do not nerf the vacuum utility. This is a utility that is used, unless I misunderstand your stats, 89% + of all of the in mission time for players. For years this has been the case. It is a pity, that your stubbornness has led to you ignoring the community on this one thing for years. You are all so fantastic about tailoring the game to what we enjoy and what is awesome/ bad &#!, that this is a huge anomoly and at this point, I cannot believe it is anything other than the personal preference of some developers in charge. That is not a bad thing, you guys are right on nearly everything and change is awesome.

But why would you consider taking a utility, used in over 89% of all play time of all players, and making it more onerous to use? Mathematically this is a huge nerf: 1 mod, but has to be carrier, to 3 "mandatory" mods on other companions. The community, with their play time, has been very explicit on what we want, an effective utility solution for picking up loot. This is for a lot of people, at times, a loot driven game. The stats make this obvious. What the community wants will not break the game, it will have no impact other than seeing the companion usage stats shift to a more normal distribution, and allow (yes, allow) the 89% + to use some of the awesome content you guys have made (sentinels, kubrows, kavats). I say allow because to what is clearly a majority of players getting loot is a necessary part of the game. More valuable than every other companion function: statistically, no debate there.

Here's the rub, I am super curious as to how you will make your new system cool, I know you will try because DE does cool, in basically everything Warframe related. Just please consider that the community wants ONE thing, that does no harm to the game at all, and increases the play-ability of the game so much so that they use only one of many optional companions. What they do not want, trust me on this, is for you to make us decide what TYPES of loot we get, or have a much less useful companion that does what carrier used to do...because that's what you are talking about after all. Once you remove vacuum from carrier, to get all our loot we clearly always want, we need to nerf our own other companion builds to do what old carrier used to do with one mod. 

How is that appropriate? If you remove bias, and look at math, the community does not agree with you AT ALL. Which is fine, but actually ask yourselves why you have been so reluctant here, and ask if your bias is the reason behind your decisions around vacuum, and your reasoning behind even considering splitting it into 3 mods (limited slots after all). Clearly that is not what the vast majority of players want. But you already know that, why would it make sense for us to lose carrier's vacuum to replace it with 3 brand spanking new "mandatory mods" you keep wanting to get rid of. 

So do what you do, I trust DE basically in all things...except vacuum. I have watched all 80 Devstreams on youtube, and every time this comes up personal attitude and bias (frustration?) creep in if there is even a response to vacuum at all. I love you guys, and I have played and loved Warframe for years. That will not change. But consider not making this player requirement (that's what it is) even more onerous to use.

 

Thanks, over 2000 hours in Warframe in just passed 3 years, and MR 22 of course, you guys do awesome work.

Chris

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

13 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

yeah, now I have a carrier that can give me more ammo, but can't shield while I raise my friends (I had to remove Sanctuary), can't restory my own shiields (Had to remove Guardian) and doesn't freeze people around me anymore (I had to remove coolant leak).

Hyperbole Detected

Let's knock the pins out from under your scenario at the outset..

Let's say that Vacuum does get changed to a Generic precept and you currently have the mods you mentioned equipped and really just want Carrier to Vacuum like normal.

What do you do?

...Nothing at all. Vacuum already takes a mod slot...Just opt to not have the ammo mod option equipped at all and you are unaffected.

Let's say that you want the Ammo Mod option equipped along with the Vacuum option...

Since each one of them only cost one mod slot allocation you would remove one (1) of those mods you mentioned.

 

13 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

So I loose those three abilities, and gain extra ammo that is only good with a few guns that suck down ammo.... I think Carrier has been nerfed with this calculus.

...Bless your heart.

I don't think you thought through that very thoroughly.

Maybe you should loose yourself from the negativity... It's causing you to lose all sense of perspective and spout things that don't (and can't) make sense.

 

[ComfyOlivia]

36 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

delete this please. Wanted a non-feedbacky discussion, but merge. No point now.

Please delete the quoted comment and this one, mods. Instead of letting a separate topic remain separate, you merged it simply because it said "Vacuum". Just delete these. I'll take my discussion to the reddit

Edited September 17, 2016 by CoRRh

[Gsterman]

Vacuum shouldn't exist as a mod in the first place. It makes no sense in a game about fast paced parkour space ninjas to have to walk around in circles and look in every nook and cranny to pick up loot.

[Shockwave-]

The more I think about this change the more I think Carrier's  new precept will be a huge a problem. Carrier will remain the most used sentinel. He will have the same vaccuum as everyone else and his new precept will allow people to use a gun that is tremendously overpowered. There are some guns whose only main drawback is ammo efficiency. Ammo efficiency was used as a balance to the dmg. Now some of these unused guns (synoid gammacor maybe, wraith twin vipers, etc). will be usable without the ammo mutation on it, allowing another dmg mod. So people wanting to use these weapons will have carrier to offset the ammo consumption balance.

I get in some ways why DE doesn't like carrier picking up things that affect gameplay (health, energy, ammo). These are in the moment things and perhaps these three pickups can be immune to carrier in the future I'm actually on board with that.

 

But ALL of the after mission items (Mods, credits, endo, blueprints, resources) should be part of a single vacuum mod. Carrier should retain the vacuum mod for Ammo, Energy, and Health as it's new precept. This is a straight up nerf to carrier (split the vacuum into two mods one universal, one carrier specific) and a buff to other sentinels. This should level the playing field a bitl.

Picking up the "after Mission" items is already META. There is no reason to think Grineer on Saturn are carrying orokin cells in their pockets, while Grineer on Mars are not carrying orokin cells. There is no reason to think that infested are carrying cash in their pockets at all. I don't even want to know where that Bite mod was being carried. There is no reason that a non-rapier wielding enemy is dropping Vulpine Mask. Resources should really be in containers, not on people the game could be about fighting through people to get to large crates that contain these things instead of dropping all over the ground. There really isn't a reason these things should have to be picked up on the fly in game.There is also no reason that if there are "really" 4 Vengeful Revenant mods on the ground, i can't pick up all 4 and split them up after the mission. I seem to have a bottomless sack for carrying mods.

On the other hand it's more fun grabbing it in the moment than at mission end so vacuum is a nice compromise here in a fast paced game with no "down time" (no clearing a room, collecting loot, and moving on).

TRY THIS FOR A FEW months, see how players respond and what the usage is, then you can decide to move the 2nd vacuum to all sentinels and create the new carrier precept. But PLEASE don't nerf vaccuum for everyone who uses it and loves it. We use it because we like it. Nerfing it for 90% of the player base that uses carrier isn't a good solution.

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

My opinion is they've decided to go a 3 mod approach simply to force sales on orokin reactors into sentinels and companion slots as more people including myself will become willing to try out rarely seen sentinels.  I literally can't think of the names of the sentinels outside of carrier, helios, and deathcube, never seen anyone use whatever there called.  I don't blame them for doing this approach as a f2p busniess but I'm wary on how hard these new mods will be to acquire and I think 3 mods is a bit excessive to achieve to achieve one old common mods effect.  If the new mods for gaining the old vacuum affect is hard to get I'll be upset I'm not in the mood to grind for an ability I used to have or be forced into trading asking to buy.