Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[MartinVole]

Just now, hammerheathen said:

Holy freaking Hell. 37 pages in a day? I think this is the biggest outcry/support on a potential/actual change yet.

True, I'm shocked as well.

[Troll_Logic]

2 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

Seems like a good way to increase the utility of all sentinels as well as their rate of usage. And with three different mods dividing the items that vacuums can be used on, it creates new decisions that players will have to make when it comes to modding their sentinels.

So you wouldn't have any problem if DE told you "Starting tomorrow you will be able to equip only one weapon.  Why are we doing this?  So it creates new decisions that players will have to make when it comes to modding their warframes."

4 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

Keep in mind that we only have ourselves as a community to blame for the changes being made

No we don't.

5 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

the DEv's spend a lot of effort and time making each of the different sentinels with different abilities and quirks. That an overwhelming majority of players chose to use nothing but a single sentinel model for it's special utility to the virtual exclusion to all others means that this utility should actually be something available for all sentinels instead.

So putting the same vacuum on every other sentinel or companion as a solution escapes you?

5 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

Now players will be able to bring any sentinel to their missions and still have their laziness catered to.

It's not laziness.  It's annoyance.  Having to effectively walk over every pick up is annoying and "not how things should work."

6 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

The only thing they have to give up is additional utility on their sentinels that they weren't using anyway

Maybe you don't have your sentinels, kubrows, and kavats potatoed with 5+ forma installed (sometimes 7), but many other players do.

8 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

so it doesn't matter to them that they'll need three different mods for the same vacuum capacity as once originally required one.

Why don't you just speak for yourself, k?

8 minutes ago, FLSH_BNG said:

But I see nothing wrong with this decision and can't understand how players could be so convinced of their own entitlement that they think a little directed and enforced moderation is a bad thing just because it changes something that they really like and has only the slightest affect on game play overall.

Maybe you're that player that puts two forma on his weapons, sentinels, & companions, but believe me when I tell you that "You are definitely in the incredibly small minority that this change will have the slightest affect on game play overall."

[hammerheathen]

Just now, MartinVole said:

True, I'm shocked as well.

I typically read through these.. On this... I'm just not. I'm not touching this beast. It needs to be compartmentalized for the people at DE who sort through all this.

[------ArtOfViolence-----]

I don't agree with all of this.  Is this assuming that most of us have 3 extra mod slots on our sentinels?  I don't.  To get the full functionality of vacuum, you'd have to sacrifice one or both of your sentinel's precepts, plus either longevity or utility mods.  I multi-forma all of my sentinels and always have all of the mod slots filled.  I'd be willing to give up one for a vacuum as it operates now, for ammo/health/energy/mods/mats. 

[FLSH_BNG]

There are 10 sentinel models and only 2 of them currently have access to vacuum with one mod.

Each sentinel has 10 mod slots and vacuum is only one mod.

Meaning that over 80% of the player base was using sentinels for just 2% of the total utility that was available to them.

Now this 2% becomes a 30% with the three mods and their usability on all sentinels. A much better distribution of utilized utility and it will be customize-able to be used only on certain loot items that each player wants.

All things aside, if you want your sentinel to do ALL of the work grabbing your loot for you, 30% of the sentinel's mod slots dedicated to that is still a very small concession to make for that.

[MartinVole]

I think it should be seen as more in the line of: 1 mod becomes 3, 3 take up 3 slots for the majority, and in turn for the most part mod diversity is instead crippled more across the board. Very realistic view.

Edited September 17, 2016 by MartinVole

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

26 minutes ago, hammerheathen said:

Holy freaking Hell. 37 pages in a day? I think this is the biggest outcry/support on a potential/actual change yet.

It's becauses some moderator made the brilliant decision to merge every thread that had the word "vacuum" in it all into one clusterf of a megathread. A lot of the threads merged weren't even feedback.

[Flirk2]

I didn't see one aspect of this proposed ''change'' discussed:

Who will be hit the hardest?

And I think it is players with less then 500 hours will suffer the most. Then all the people up to MR15 or so.

Why do I think so? Because those are the people who need resources, credits, endo and mods the most.

90% people using carrier is not a problem. Problem is that other companions don't have anything nearly as good to offer.

Smeeta is the only companion that has. And it's already starting to get nerfed.

[(XBOX)Black Mouse]

I approve this message from DE. Vacuum on all my birds would be great. One down side maxed ranked primed mutations may go the way of the Dodo bird.

[Drufo]

I see the change as an improvement for Carrier since he would help when playing with ammo consuming weapons. The biggest goal Vacuum reached is to incite player laziness.

[Shockwave-]

16 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Shade only works when you dont attack, Helios only works when you havent complete scanning, etc, etc.

Carrier now being beneficial for ammo eaters and sniper types for the most part is not a nerf but a sidegrade. Because the vac mods will mean you will have to take mods off the other sentinels, too.

Uh, no. It's a nerf compared to how it is now. It's a sidegrade after the nerf... Saying it's a sidegrade because all the other sentinels won't be able to use the mods they do now is comincal. It's a nerf pure and simple. 90% of people use carrier. So now they will use a watered down version of carrier. that can give them ammo, but to keep the vacuum you have now you need to sacrifice 3 other mods like coolant leak, sanctuary and guardian. That's a nerf.

[MartinVole]

3 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

I didn't see one aspect of this proposed ''change'' discussed:

Who will be hit the hardest?

And I think it is players with less then 500 hours will suffer the most. Then all the people up to MR15 or so.

Why do I think so? Because those are the people who need resources, credits, endo and mods the most.

90% people using carrier is not a problem. Problem is that other companions don't have anything nearly as good to offer.

Smeeta is the only companion that has. And it's already starting to get nerfed.

This is true, we often forget what it was like starting off as newbies to the game, how hard it was to get momentum started. The problem too is turning one "mandatory" mod across the board into three. Could alienate new players more. If it were an exilus, new players wouldn't even know what exilus is for a while and would struggle. If it is 3 mods for all sentinels, then that is three "mandatory" mods that were once one, thus still hurting diversity. I love sentinels, but also love kavats. I don't think vacuum should be this problematic to just give freely and improve the lives of new players.

[Virsalus]

Please make them work on pets, too...

[98Octane]

4 hours ago, mostlyerror said:

From DE directly:

"What we're playing with right now is this idea: Vacuum will be transformed into 3 new mods that can be used by any sentinel, with 3 different types of Vacuum:

· Health and Energy

· Credits and Ammo

· Mods, Endo, and Resources/Miscellaneous"

 

Please do not nerf the vacuum utility. This is a utility that is used, unless I misunderstand your stats, 89% + of all of the in mission time for players. For years this has been the case. It is a pity, that your stubbornness has led to you ignoring the community on this one thing for years. You are all so fantastic about tailoring the game to what we enjoy and what is awesome/ bad &#!, that this is a huge anomoly and at this point, I cannot believe it is anything other than the personal preference of some developers in charge. That is not a bad thing, you guys are right on nearly everything and change is awesome.

But why would you consider taking a utility, used in over 89% of all play time of all players, and making it more onerous to use? Mathematically this is a huge nerf: 1 mod, but has to be carrier, to 3 "mandatory" mods on other companions. The community, with their play time, has been very explicit on what we want, an effective utility solution for picking up loot. This is for a lot of people, at times, a loot driven game. The stats make this obvious. What the community wants will not break the game, it will have no impact other than seeing the companion usage stats shift to a more normal distribution, and allow (yes, allow) the 89% + to use some of the awesome content you guys have made (sentinels, kubrows, kavats). I say allow because to what is clearly a majority of players getting loot is a necessary part of the game. More valuable than every other companion function: statistically, no debate there.

Here's the rub, I am super curious as to how you will make your new system cool, I know you will try because DE does cool, in basically everything Warframe related. Just please consider that the community wants ONE thing, that does no harm to the game at all, and increases the play-ability of the game so much so that they use only one of many optional companions. What they do not want, trust me on this, is for you to make us decide what TYPES of loot we get, or have a much less useful companion that does what carrier used to do...because that's what you are talking about after all. Once you remove vacuum from carrier, to get all our loot we clearly always want, we need to nerf our own other companion builds to do what old carrier used to do with one mod. 

How is that appropriate? If you remove bias, and look at math, the community does not agree with you AT ALL. Which is fine, but actually ask yourselves why you have been so reluctant here, and ask if your bias is the reason behind your decisions around vacuum, and your reasoning behind even considering splitting it into 3 mods (limited slots after all). Clearly that is not what the vast majority of players want. But you already know that, why would it make sense for us to lose carrier's vacuum to replace it with 3 brand spanking new "mandatory mods" you keep wanting to get rid of. 

So do what you do, I trust DE basically in all things...except vacuum. I have watched all 80 Devstreams on youtube, and every time this comes up personal attitude and bias (frustration?) creep in if there is even a response to vacuum at all. I love you guys, and I have played and loved Warframe for years. That will not change. But consider not making this player requirement (that's what it is) even more onerous to use.

 

Thanks, over 2000 hours in Warframe in just passed 3 years, and MR 22 of course, you guys do awesome work.

Chris

 very well said man, very well said

 

[Troll_Logic]

27 minutes ago, Drufo said:

I see the change as an improvement for Carrier since he would help when playing with ammo consuming weapons. The biggest goal Vacuum reached is to incite player laziness.

Yeah, because wanting to avoid zig zagging and continually running over the same area over and over and over and over is laziness.

[98Octane]

4 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Hyperbole Detected

Let's knock the pins out from under your scenario at the outset..

Let's say that Vacuum does get changed to a Generic precept and you currently have the mods you mentioned equipped and really just want Carrier to Vacuum like normal.

What do you do?

...Nothing at all. Vacuum already takes a mod slot...Just opt to not have the ammo mod option equipped at all and you are unaffected.

Let's say that you want the Ammo Mod option equipped along with the Vacuum option...

Since each one of them only cost one mod slot allocation you would remove one (1) of those mods you mentioned.

 

.

Vacuum already takes a mod slot' i think u missed the entire point, vacuum wil take 3 slots not 1 if the change comes, please read before commenting or am i missing something here ??

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

Before you get too smarmy and condescending, you do realize that DE is talking about eliminating the current vacuum mod and replacing it with three vacuum mods with each mod collecting only a specific item?  Because your reply of 

is not would DE is looking to do.

You find me where a relevant Dev has specifically said that each version picks up a different set of items.

...Quote it.

Rebecca's comments, "There's Mods, Endo..." could have meant anything tbh. It won't be the first time she's spit-balled on a Devstream. Likewise, I don't see such a setup making it out of internal testing with , "Trust us, we'll do right by you..." comments cleaning it up.

Smashing the current Vacuum into three parts could just as easily assert 3 different versions with changes in range this would also make sense as it fits the Common, Uncommon, and Rare mod versions they tend to offer now. 

Rank	Range (front)	Range (peripheral)	Cost	Conclave
0	+5m	+7m	2	C5
1	+6m	+8m	3	C5
2	+7m	+9m	4	C9
3	+8m	+10m	5	C13
4	+9m	+11m	6	C16
5	+10m	+12m	7	C20

 

I just don't see DE doing what it seems you and others are assuming... It's just too petty to make sense.

What you see as smarmy and condescending is patience in the face of hyperbole and alarm-ism. 

Do you really think that DE is going to take an item folks spent cash on and nerf its' QoL function for the sole reason of encouraging diverse choices from other players?

Negative... That's removing a value added QoL feature for no purpose other than the sake of diversity for diversity's sake. There's literally no perceptible upside to doing so

We aren't talking about it being OP... We are talking about a QoL function that's been requested to be generic for years.

They are going to de-value player's investments because they want to encourage diversity?

That's got to be in a handbook for, "How to Lose Business and Reduce Future Profit" if such a thing actually existed.

Your assumed change falls under the category of purposefully frustrating customers on DE's part...That's how petty the change would be.

We aren't talking about a balance issue—We are talking about a QoL issue... "We'll take care of you... Trust us." doesn't clean those up.

 

I just can't see them doing it as you assume... It just costs too much long term.

That said, if what you presume is what gets done, I'll be the first to say, "You told me so."

 

 

 

[98Octane]

4 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

You find me where a relevant Dev has specifically said that each version picks up a different set of items.

...Quote it.

Rebecca's comments, "There's Mods, Endo..." could have meant anything tbh. It won't be the first time she's spit-balled on a Devstream. Likewise, I don't see such a setup making it out of internal testing with , "Trust us, we'll do right by you..." comments cleaning it up.

Smashing the current Vacuum into three parts could just as easily assert 3 different versions with changes in range this would also make sense as it fits the Common, Uncommon, and Rare mod versions they tend to offer now. 

Rank	Range (front)	Range (peripheral)	Cost	Conclave
0	+5m	+7m	2	C5
1	+6m	+8m	3	C5
2	+7m	+9m	4	C9
3	+8m	+10m	5	C13
4	+9m	+11m	6	C16
5	+10m	+12m	7	C20

 

I just don't see DE doing what it seems you and others are assuming... It's just too petty to make sense.

What you see as smarmy and condescending is patience in the face of hyperbole and alarm-ism. 

Do you really think that DE is going to take an item folks spent cash on and nerf its' QoL function for the sole reason of encouraging diverse choices from other players?

Negative... That's removing a value added QoL feature for no purpose other than the sake of diversity for diversity's sake. There's literally no perceptible upside to doing so

We aren't talking about it being OP... We are talking about a QoL function that's been requested to be generic for years.

They are going to de-value player's investments because they want to encourage diversity?

That's got to be in a handbook for, "How to Lose Business and Reduce Future Profit" if such a thing actually existed.

Your assumed change falls under the category of purposefully frustrating customers on DE's part...That's how petty the change would be.

We aren't talking about a balance issue—We are talking about a QoL issue... "We'll take care of you... Trust us." doesn't clean those up.

 

I just can't see them doing it as you assume... It just costs too much long term.

That said, if what you presume is what gets done, I'll be the first to say, "You told me so."

 

 

 

But still what i dont understand why not just make it simplier and make the mod universal,  and well DE has 'nerfed' frames before which people had invested in, but then u r right we sud wait and watch, and in the meantime i should make all the stuff left to get those 2 last MRs :D

Edited September 17, 2016 by 98Octane

[Rakosta_Kai]

7 minutes ago, 98Octane said:

Vacuum already takes a mod slot' i think u missed the entire point, vacuum wil take 3 slots not 1 if the change comes, please read before commenting or am i missing something here ??

I didn't miss the point... With respect, the point you and others are leaning on doesn't make sense.

3 versions seperated by range= Makes sense

3 versions seperated by random -on pickup- incomparable effects (doubtful since vacuum was asserted as being smashed) = Makes sense.

3 versions designed to pickup the subsets of the items that drop in missions (Mods, Endo , Orbs, Foundry Comps, Ammo)= Doesn't makes sense.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Padre_Akais

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

3 versions designed to pickup the subsets of the items that drop in missions (Mods, Endo , Orbs, Foundry Comps, Ammo)= Doesn't makes sense.

That very easily makes sense.

I, and many others, have been avoiding using Vacuum for the simple fact that we don't want all of our ammo drops, health orbs, and energy orbs used up indiscriminately. Giving me the option of leaving those on the ground and vacuuming up everything else is something that I have wanted for a very, very long time.

Would it be better off as an arsenal toggle, or in-game options toggle? Oh yes, definitely. But I'll take whatever they're willing to give me until they learn.

[timur_the_lame]

12 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I just don't see DE doing what it seems you and others are assuming... It's just too petty to make sense.

What you see as smarmy and condescending is patience in the face of hyperbole and alarm-ism. 

Do you really think that DE is going to take an item folks spent cash on and nerf its' QoL function for the sole reason of encouraging diverse choices from other players?

Negative... That's removing a value added QoL feature for no purpose other than the sake of diversity for diversity's sake. There's literally no perceptible upside to doing so

We aren't talking about it being OP... We are talking about a QoL function that's been requested to be generic for years.

They are going to de-value player's investments because they want to encourage diversity?

That's got to be in a handbook for, "How to Lose Business and Reduce Future Profit" if such a thing actually existed.

Your assumed change falls under the category of purposefully frustrating customers on DE's part...That's how petty the change would be.

We aren't talking about a balance issue—We are talking about a QoL issue... "We'll take care of you... Trust us." doesn't clean those up.

I just can't see them doing it as you assume... It just costs too much long term.

That said, if what you presume is what gets done, I'll be the first to say, "You told me so."

You should absolutely assume this.  This is DE's business model: release sought after item/frame, release it overpowered or inherently better than others, nerf.  Rinse and repeat.  This isn't even mentioning the fact that DE bungles nearly every request that we have and inevitably ends up angering the vast majority of players.

Edit: missed an "s".

Edited September 17, 2016 by timur_the_lame

[98Octane]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

I didn't miss the point... With respect, the point you and others are leaning on doesn't make sense.

3 versions seperated by range= Makes sense

3 versions seperated by random -on pickup- incomparable effects (doubtful since vacuum was asserted as being smashed) = Makes sense.

3 versions designed to pickup the only 3 classifications of items that drop in missions (Mods, Endo , Orbs, Foundry Comps, Ammo)

TBH we all have problems with the last option, even if the guys who r saying no to it now, let the content for say MR25 comeout with some new resource like oxium came out, these will be the same players who wil be ranting over this, apart from that the range division yes i wud support that, common uncommon rare mods have differnt range. second one am pretty sure is not gonna happen

[Troll_Logic]

3 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I just can't see them doing it as you assume... It just costs too much long term.

I'm hoping I'm wrong.

I wouldn't discount what Rebecca said.  She did say it in context.

We should worry considering DE's track record about such things.

But again, I hope I'm wrong.

[98Octane]

23 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

That very easily makes sense.

I, and many others, have been avoiding using Vacuum for the simple fact that we don't want all of our ammo drops, health orbs, and energy orbs used up indiscriminately. Giving me the option of leaving those on the ground and vacuuming up everything else is something that I have wanted for a very, very long time.

Would it be better off as an arsenal toggle, or in-game options toggle? Oh yes, definitely. But I'll take whatever they're willing to give me until they learn.

Funny u said that, extra ammo energy hp being scooped up, first of all when was the last time u had to actually proceed with caution in the star map and not bullet jump the entire map, even sorties sometimes become a speed run. only place this argument was viable was T4 def after 80 waves with bombards/ancients/nullis piling on u or say assur after 80 mins or so with those blasted lvl 200ish mutalist osprey leeches, 

so pardon me when i say this i do not understand this argument which is tbh pretty weak,unless u r telling me u want to face lvl 150+enemy with just a soma or dexfury/twin grakatas, there also a ammo mod or a energy to hp and viceversa mod can be used, as wat u r not understanding is if they make 3 mods for three pickups (which is ridiculous), it wil weaken the senti/kubrow/kavats what ever u r using them on as u have to free 2 slots and a dead carrier or anysenti is not good when u facing lvl 200 enemies since u wont need that extra energy/hp/ammo in normal runs

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by 98Octane

[MartinVole]

Trolling the community and calling people stupid and lazy is not helping matters, but neutral views are perfectly fine, nobody's individual views are less than others so there's no reason to dump on them and accuse them for being this or that if they don't go with your flow. This is to all sides of the field.

I think long term players like me can't speak well for new player experience, as our new player experience is so far removed and some hundred updates ago. But I can at least say that this (passive universal vacuum, maybe reduced a little) would be to their benefit to give them fewer things to worry about when starting out. I don't think many players buy resource packs and such anyways, even new players, so the only impact I see is general longevity for new players. But again, I can't speak for modern new players, so take that as it is.

Edited September 17, 2016 by MartinVole
emphasis