Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[98Octane]

6 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

I'm hoping I'm wrong.

I wouldn't discount what Rebecca said.  She did say it in context.

We should worry considering DE's track record about such things.

But again, I hope I'm wrong.

i hope that u r wrong/am wrong too

[98Octane]

Just now, MartinVole said:

Trolling the community and calling people stupid and lazy is not helping matters, but neutral views are perfectly fine, nobody's individual views are less than others so there's no reason to dump on them and accuse them for being this or that if they don't go with your flow. This is to all sides of the field.

I think long term players like me can't speak well for new player experience, as our new player experience is so far removed and some hundred updates ago. But I can at least say that this (universal vacuum, maybe reduced a little) would be to their benefit to give them fewer things to worry about when starting out. I don't think many players buy resource packs and such anyways, even new players, so the only impact I see is general longevity for new players.

How?? instead of one now they have to find 3 mods and level them and in the process get more endo/credit to do that, i started the game last december so i stil remember the journey of this 20MRs and only twice i didnt like DE's methods 

1.killing of endless practically as reward:effort after a point is well.. u know ...

2. increasing primed mod level cost to 1.9 mill +

and this will be the 3rd time

[MartinVole]

1 minute ago, 98Octane said:

How?? instead of one now they have to find 3 mods and level them and in the process get more endo/credit to do that, i started the game last december so i stil remember the journey of this 20MRs and only twice i didnt like DE's methods 

1.killing of endless practically as reward:effort after a point is well.. u know ...

2. increasing primed mod level cost to 1.9 mill +

and this will be the 3rd time

I think you missed that I'm in favor of passive vacuum as a global thing.

[Azrael]

33 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

You find me where a relevant Dev has specifically said that each version picks up a different set of items.

...Quote it.

Rebecca's comments, "There's Mods, Endo..." could have meant anything tbh. It won't be the first time she's spit-balled on a Devstream. Likewise, I don't see such a setup making it out of internal testing with , "Trust us, we'll do right by you..." comments cleaning it up.

Smashing the current Vacuum into three parts could just as easily assert 3 different versions with changes in range this would also make sense as it fits the Common, Uncommon, and Rare mod versions they tend to offer now. 

Rank	Range (front)	Range (peripheral)	Cost	Conclave
0	+5m	+7m	2	C5
1	+6m	+8m	3	C5
2	+7m	+9m	4	C9
3	+8m	+10m	5	C13
4	+9m	+11m	6	C16
5	+10m	+12m	7	C20

 

I just don't see DE doing what it seems you and others are assuming... It's just too petty to make sense.

What you see as smarmy and condescending is patience in the face of hyperbole and alarm-ism. 

Do you really think that DE is going to take an item folks spent cash on and nerf its' QoL function for the sole reason of encouraging diverse choices from other players?

Negative... That's removing a value added QoL feature for no purpose other than the sake of diversity for diversity's sake. There's literally no perceptible upside to doing so

We aren't talking about it being OP... We are talking about a QoL function that's been requested to be generic for years.

They are going to de-value player's investments because they want to encourage diversity?

That's got to be in a handbook for, "How to Lose Business and Reduce Future Profit" if such a thing actually existed.

Your assumed change falls under the category of purposefully frustrating customers on DE's part...That's how petty the change would be.

We aren't talking about a balance issue—We are talking about a QoL issue... "We'll take care of you... Trust us." doesn't clean those up.

 

I just can't see them doing it as you assume... It just costs too much long term.

That said, if what you presume is what gets done, I'll be the first to say, "You told me so."

 

 

 

They posted an official summary that specified three mods that picked up different things. One was mods and endo and resources, one was credits and ammo, and one was health and energy. Go to the main page, blog, look for Devstream 80 overview. 

[98Octane]

Just now, MartinVole said:

I think you missed that I'm in favor of passive vacuum as a global thing.

oh u meant the actual universal vacuum, i thought u r being sarcastic  and calling this a diminished Uni vac. sorry

[Shockwave-]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

The general assumption is that the 3 Vacuum mods will each pickup different things as opposed to each of them offering a base pickup functionality but doing it to different distances.

I refuse to accept that DE would be that petty just to encourage diversity... It's just not fathomable to me.

It's just too much of a PR black eye for too small an issue.

Likewise, Such a move hurts the marketability of future PA's offerings.

I fully expect the Vacuums being the same but offering small differences in their function.

... Anything else tarnishes their reputation needlessly.   

The three mods will pickup difference things. This is not an assumption. I think it's Mods/Endo, blueprints / Credtis & Ammo / Health and energy orbs..

Something like that. DE posted what the tree will be in their overview.

[Mak_Gohae]

1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

Uh, no. It's a nerf compared to how it is now. It's a sidegrade after the nerf... Saying it's a sidegrade because all the other sentinels won't be able to use the mods they do now is comincal. It's a nerf pure and simple. 90% of people use carrier. So now they will use a watered down version of carrier. that can give them ammo, but to keep the vacuum you have now you need to sacrifice 3 other mods like coolant leak, sanctuary and guardian. That's a nerf.

It's a sidegrade because he gets a new ability.

And vac now hits ALL sentinels in the same way.

You are just focusing on vac ignoring the other effects that happen.

[98Octane]

1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

They posted an official summary that specified three mods that picked up different things. One was mods and endo and resources, one was credits and ammo, and one was health and energy. Go to the main page, blog, look for Devstream 80 overview. 

thank you , and i hate myself right now for being right!!

[98Octane]

3 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

It's a sidegrade because he gets a new ability.

And vac now hits ALL sentinels in the same way.

You are just focusing on vac ignoring the other effects that happen.

ok lets say u want to put 3 vaccum mods in ur senti, which 3 mods wil u throw . one  u can throw the attack enemy mod and u still have to make 2 slots, so people will still use only carrier as vacuum +striker gone u get 2 empty slot and u need to clear only one slot, unless DE decides u can only use one mod at a time like the silver grove medicine

Edited September 17, 2016 by 98Octane
typo

[MartinVole]

Just now, 98Octane said:

oh u meant the actual universal vacuum, i thought u r being sarcastic  and calling this a diminished Uni vac. sorry

Not keen on using sarcasm. My first part was a response to people slinging mud at each other. I don't much like that, but then again I don't like politics much for the same reasons. I rather think of players, their experience, and generally the view is that simplification is better. I think new players, and players in general, should not sweat the small stuff.

I also like diminishing the meta's "necessity", I like diversity. :)

[mikey619]

I really don't get how they went from players wanting universal vacuum for all sentinels and companions to splitting the vacuum mod into 3 sub-mods only available for sentinels. If 89% of players are using Carrier by MR10 I wonder how many have reactant and formas on their Carrier. You will probably end up with 89% of players trying to figure out a new build for their Carrier. 

This is just adding fuel to the fire to an already unhappy community. I really wish DE developers would play their game and see what the players goes through, and I mean really play the game, like Rebecca level good. If not, at least try to understand where we're coming from. A lot of players have brought up valid suggestions for Universal Vacuum, and a lot of other great suggestions for the game,  but they all seems to be ignore. 

At this point I just hope nothing changes with Carrier and vacuum. I feel any valid suggestions we make will be distorted by DE and it will just cause more problems.    

[Chipputer]

48 minutes ago, 98Octane said:

Funny u said that, extra ammo energy hp being scooped up, first of all when was the last time u had to actually proceed with caution in the star map and not bullet jump the entire map, even sorties sometimes become a speed run. only place this argument was viable

Blah blah blah

If you want vacuum for your QoL then I don't want my orbs and ammo being used up without me specifically wanting them to be. That's MY QoL. Being 1hp down and having a full health orb used up is inefficient and not something I prefer. Does that make sense for you? Because you know what makes no sense to me? Why people that have enough resources to craft everything in the game, twice over, want every single drop to be sucked up constantly.

[Rakosta_Kai]

37 minutes ago, 98Octane said:

But still what i dont understand why not just make it simplier and make the mod universal,  and well DE has 'nerfed' frames before which people had invested in, but then u r right we sud wait and watch, and in the meantime i should make all the stuff left to get those 2 last MRs :D

That's irrelevant to my point ...It has nothing to do with a lack of understanding.

Sure, making it a generic QoL feature would be a good idea... I argued that point years ago (literally).

...I've asserted that Vacuum should be a generic mod.

..I've even asserted it should be tied to MR as a QoL.

But I don't do the Chicken Little thing as a general rule and in this case I don't see a reason to.

What folks are claiming amounts to," the sky is falling" as the idea falls closer to outright trolling than it does a relevant design or business decision.

There hasn't been, in my memory, a change of the type you folks are putting forward.

Nerfing something that has zero effect on balance to promote diversity?!?!?

...It's the equivalent of nerfing a color because players use it too much. 

28 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

I'm hoping I'm wrong.

I wouldn't discount what Rebecca said.  She did say it in context.

We should worry considering DE's track record about such things.

But again, I hope I'm wrong.

With not one ounce of disrespect to her, I saw her comment as spit-balling (not a unique occurrence on the Devstreams...It's why I gravitate to Bunny's posts instead typically).

Example: "We are blowing up the Void..."

I have no doubts it'll get split into 3 different mods...I highly doubt that it will be split by what gets picked up though.

There are too many incomparables that can seperate the value of the mods to choose from only to choose such a petty course instead imo. 

I think she and the devs will internally playtest a bunch of different setups and arrive at something balanced and reasonable in the end.

DE_Scott doesn't mince words much and if he was really going to make Vacuum an onerous mechanic to use he would have described it directly (remember, this is Mr. "Yeah, I Broke Snow Globe 'Cuz it needed to be Broken").

The assumption, at it's core is bad business and I don't see that being consistent with DE as a general rule.

Needless to say, I am hoping I am right and this isn't a case of me giving DE too much credit. 

[MartinVole]

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Blah blah blah

If you want vacuum for your QoL then I don't want my orbs and ammo being used up without me specifically wanting them to be. That's MY QoL. Being 1hp down and having a full health orb used up is inefficient and not something I prefer. Does that make sense for you? Because you know what makes no sense to me? Why people that have enough resources to craft everything in the game, twice over, want every single drop to be sucked up constantly.

Could just be a toggle like pressing x to interact and reload, problem solved. Some didn't mind pressing x to reload and pick people, I didn't like reload activating instead of picking people up, and a toggle option was made.

 

13 minutes ago, mikey619 said:

I really don't get how they went from players wanting universal vacuum for all sentinels and companions to splitting the vacuum mod into 3 sub-mods only available for sentinels. If 89% of players are using Carrier by MR10 I wonder how many have reactant and formas on their Carrier. You will probably end up with 89% of players trying to figure out a new build for their Carrier. 

This is just adding fuel to the fire to an already unhappy community. I really wish DE developers would play their game and see what the players goes through, and I mean really play the game, like Rebecca level good. If not, at least try to understand where we're coming from. A lot of players have brought up valid suggestions for Universal Vacuum, and a lot of other great suggestions for the game,  but they all seems to be ignore. 

At this point I just hope nothing changes with Carrier and vacuum. I feel any valid suggestions we make will be distorted by DE and it will just cause more problems.    

I give Rebecca respect for being both a dev and dedicated player. I also see that developing the game is time consuming and the player's demand for updates. I don't blame players for it, as said, updates are life blood. This creates, however, a problem where perceived problems and communication, working the code VS experiencing the code is misaligned. This is also how bugs slip by, because in the code it seemed fine.

[Hoth]

Players: "We want an universal carrier mod!"

Devs: "We have nerfed the carrier mod into 3 different mods!"

Players: "Wat."

[MartinVole]

2 minutes ago, BHoth said:

Players: "We want an universal carrier mod!"

Devs: "We have nerfed the carrier mod into 3 different mods!"

Players: "Wat."

Now, to wear the shoes of the other, I don't think they actively thought it would be a nerf, and it is very tentative. On the other end, if it was split by types of pickups for sentinels it would just mean more slots are wasted on what was once a single mod. But I don't think they thought of this issue if that is the case.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

46 minutes ago, 98Octane said:

ok lets say u want to put 3 vaccum mods in ur senti, which 3 mods wil u throw . one  u can throw the attack enemy mod and u still have to make 2 slots, so people will still use only carrier as vacuum +striker gone u get 2 empty slot and u need to clear only one slot, unless DE decides u can only use one mod at a time like the silver grove medicine

No way I ever removing attack from sentinel, I own 5 forma sentinel weapons for a reason. You ignore all melee enemies, butchers etc. Period. Up to level 70. 10 slots is already not enough, I barely fit it all with 4 forma carrier prime. Extra 2 slots would be very welcome. 

19 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Blah blah blah

If you want vacuum for your QoL then I don't want my orbs and ammo being used up without me specifically wanting them to be. That's MY QoL. Being 1hp down and having a full health orb used up is inefficient and not something I prefer. Does that make sense for you? Because you know what makes no sense to me? Why people that have enough resources to craft everything in the game, twice over, want every single drop to be sucked up constantly.

I'll go ahead and say that if it's not irrelevant to you if you waste orbs, your build is objectively suboptimal or just wrong.

[Hoth]

Just now, MartinVole said:

Now, to wear the shoes of the other, I don't think they actively thought it would be a nerf, and it is very tentative. On the other end, if it was split by types of pickups for sentinels it would just mean more slots are wasted on what was once a single mod. But I don't think they thought of this issue if that is the case.

In my eyes, taking a mod and dividing it into 3 (taking 3 slots,3 times as costly to upgrade and possibly 3 times harder to get) IS indeed a nerf. I currently use all slots in my carrier sentinel, if I had to give up two (initial carry - 3) i'll be pretty bummed and it will affect noticeably my setup.

I really just don't understand why they had to separate the mod into 3, it seems more work to me and it obviously is making many a player pissed.

[mikey619]

2 minutes ago, MartinVole said:

Now, to wear the shoes of the other, I don't think they actively thought it would be a nerf, and it is very tentative. On the other end, if it was split by types of pickups for sentinels it would just mean more slots are wasted on what was once a single mod. But I don't think they thought of this issue if that is the case.

Also they didn't even mentioned Kubrows and Kavats. 

[Jaysus41]

From what I've read, one group of players wants a universal, generic version of Vacuum to put on all their companions, and another group would like a generic version of vacuum and to be able to pick and choose what Vacuum picks up.

Why not have 4 versions? Ammo, resources, health/energy, and universal?

Or make it into the first ever modular mod that you can tweak. A mod you can mod, if you will.

Yo dawg, I heard you like modding...

[MartinVole]

16 minutes ago, BHoth said:

In my eyes, taking a mod and dividing it into 3 (taking 3 slots,3 times as costly to upgrade and possibly 3 times harder to get) IS indeed a nerf. I currently use all slots in my carrier sentinel, if I had to give up two (initial carry - 3) i'll be pretty bummed and it will affect noticeably my setup.

I really just don't understand why they had to separate the mod into 3, it seems more work to me and it obviously is making many a player pissed.

Never said it wasn't. Also I say it breaks mod diversity further. I'm just not sure if THEY saw it as such.
 

15 minutes ago, mikey619 said:

Also they didn't even mentioned Kubrows and Kavats. 

This is true, kitties and doggies need as much consideration. I rather am in favor of breaking the meta by making the alternative equally appealing in its own way, rather than nerfing the other or making power creep.

[Xzorn]

Long overdue.

but.....

PLEASE PLEASE GOD. Do NOT Nerf Vacuum.

I'd much rather use one companion forever than have a choice with a half useful vacuum.

[Kirov123]

I think a great way to both allow mod variety on sentinels as well as companion variety would be to give all sentinels innate vacuum on par with current carriers vacuum, and all warframes an innate vacuum of between 1/3 and 1/4 of carriers range. The innate vacuum on sentinels means you are more free to pick the sentinel you want, and the innate vacuum on warframes is so that people using pets don't feel hampered by the lack of vacuum. I think that pets are generally stronger and do more than sentinels, thus why players would have a lower vacuum range when using them. I think that 1/3 to 1/4 range of carrier should be baseline for pickup range. As fro carriers passive, if carrier could hold excess energy, health, and ammo and grant if to the warframe as needed without wasting it all, that could be a nice new precept. Maybe knock down the efficiency on energy transferring since 100% efficiency may be too strong.

[Spergin_McBadposter]

58 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

I have no doubts it'll get split into 3 different mods...I highly doubt that it will be split by what gets picked up though.

Why would you doubt what they explicitly told us they want to do?

Quote

What we're playing with right now is this idea: Vacuum will be transformed into 3 new mods that can be used by any sentinel, with 3 different types of Vacuum:

· Health and Energy

· Credits and Ammo

· Mods, Endo, and Resources/Miscellaneous

from here https://warframe.com/news/devstream-80-overview

[Troll_Logic]

52 minutes ago, Jaysus41 said:

From what I've read, one group of players wants a universal, generic version of Vacuum to put on all their companions, and another group would like a generic version of vacuum and to be able to pick and choose what Vacuum picks up.

Actually the groups are closer to "everyone" and "three players."