Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[Markerlight]

What they said in the Devstream is this:
Vacuum will be transformed into 3 new mods that can be used by any sentinel, with 3 different types of Vacuum:

• Health and Energy
• Credits and Ammo
• Mods, Endo, and Resources/Miscellaneous

And these mods will be only usable by other sentinels. Meaning no Kubrows or Kavats. 

How is this not a gigantic nerf and a slap in the face? The sensible choice would be to increase the normal pick up range on a Warframe to current Vaccum levels, not to nerf not only Carrier, but pretty much all other sentinels by forcing us to choose between the types of resources picked up, meaning there will be no choice, just like Serration and Split Chamber are non-choices, because if you have them, it would be illogical not to use them, and so, instead of having 10 mod slots on a sentinel, you end up with 7. 

And this still would make people not use Kavats & Kubrows over sentinels.

[Vali]

My thoughts on this is what mods do we even put onto your Sentinels? All of them have 10 slots, 3-4 precepts, 3 survivability mods and 3-4 spare slots 

[DSpite]

So am I the only person that wants "drops" removed?

Why do infested drop ammo? Have they been eating ammo crates? Why do random enemies drop energy? Are they carrying batteries?

Why not just tie Energy mechanic to an onboard Reactor on the Frames? Constant use taxes the Reactor and it charges more slowly, this also allows US to micromanage our energy Reserves.

Why not have drops be something that are swept up after missions by drones?

 

WHY exactly do we still have Diablo pickup mechanics in a non-Diablo game?

[YUNoJump]

21 minutes ago, Markerlight said:

What they said in the Devstream is this:
Vacuum will be transformed into 3 new mods that can be used by any sentinel, with 3 different types of Vacuum:

• Health and Energy
• Credits and Ammo
• Mods, Endo, and Resources/Miscellaneous

And these mods will be only usable by other sentinels. Meaning no Kubrows or Kavats. 

How is this not a gigantic nerf and a slap in the face? The sensible choice would be to increase the normal pick up range on a Warframe to current Vaccum levels, not to nerf not only Carrier, but pretty much all other sentinels by forcing us to choose between the types of resources picked up, meaning there will be no choice, just like Serration and Split Chamber are non-choices, because if you have them, it would be illogical not to use them, and so, instead of having 10 mod slots on a sentinel, you end up with 7. 

And this still would make people not use Kavats & Kubrows over sentinels.

I think what they're trying to do is change Vacuum so that it's not Carrier-exclusive, thereby making other sentinels more viable in the eyes of the community, while keeping Vacuum as an optional item, not a guaranteed part of every build. If you have to put 3 mods on to get maximum effectiveness (obviously a considerable slot investment) then people might consider not including the mods in their builds, as opposed to having vacuum as only one mod and everyone always using it.

Of course the system isn't in place yet and we don't know everything about it so we'll have to wait and see what people do with the mods. 

[RistN]

24 minutes ago, Markerlight said:

What they said in the Devstream is this:
Vacuum will be transformed into 3 new mods that can be used by any sentinel, with 3 different types of Vacuum:

• Health and Energy
• Credits and Ammo
• Mods, Endo, and Resources/Miscellaneous

And these mods will be only usable by other sentinels. Meaning no Kubrows or Kavats. 

How is this not a gigantic nerf and a slap in the face? The sensible choice would be to increase the normal pick up range on a Warframe to current Vaccum levels, not to nerf not only Carrier, but pretty much all other sentinels by forcing us to choose between the types of resources picked up, meaning there will be no choice, just like Serration and Split Chamber are non-choices, because if you have them, it would be illogical not to use them, and so, instead of having 10 mod slots on a sentinel, you end up with 7. 

And this still would make people not use Kavats & Kubrows over sentinels.

I do understand that kavats and kubrows will not use this but I dont know why are they complicating things and making 3 different vacuums.If Carrier remains the only who can vacuum all then they did not do anything.People are still gonna prefer it over everything else.1 mod slot wold be ok but 3 slots is too much.There are many sentinel mods that give good buff to your warframe for them to be thrown out and use 3 vacuum mods.

As i see it sentinels are best used as a buff to your warframe(read animal instinct,vacuum...) and not for offesive play cause their dmg and cc are just not good enough or they will ever be..

[Azrael]

25 minutes ago, Agentawesome said:

My thoughts on this is what mods do we even put onto your Sentinels? All of them have 10 slots, 3-4 precepts, 3 survivability mods and 3-4 spare slots 

health, shield, armor, guardian, sanctuary, animal instinct, regen, attack precept, secondary precept, coolant leak. 10 mods, only one spot for vacuum (in the secondary precept slot). Other sentinals that have a useful secondary precept like wyrm or shade won't even have one spot for vacuum, much less 3 or 4.

So what shall we take off? Coolant leak, first, although that's pretty nice. Regen, I guess, so if he dies that's it. And then... I guess animal instinct. I'm gonna miss that loot radar. And that enemy sense. And that aoe slow. and that entire sentinal after he dies because I took off regen.

Or maybe I could take off sanctuary. Just don't ask me to res you.

Or maybe guardian. Who needs shields anyway?

Or maybe we could be honest and say that we really don't have room for 3 mods, and this change will mean a nerf in one way or another.

[Blood_Poppy]

I Always Change my Sentinel/Kubrows/Kavat to Suit the Gameplay and Purpose.

 And This  Universal Vacuum mod Idea are Great.. 

BUT Instead Split Vacuum to 3 Different Mods, Just make it One. I need Slots For Others Useful Mods.

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Blood_Poppy

[Azrael]

40 minutes ago, TheTundraTerror said:

I think the general consensus is "make it as painless and simple as possible because collecting loot is not a gameplay mechanic that people enjoy (outside of some genres)".

I wish it were, but it would seem a lot of people want picking up loot to be a central part of the challenge of warframe.

My take in it is: once it drops, you've already won. You beat the odds, RNGesus has blessed you. That drop is yours. Why add in an additional step now that the hard part's over?

[Vali]

1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

health, shield, armor, guardian, sanctuary, animal instinct, regen, attack precept, secondary precept, coolant leak. 10 mods, only one spot for vacuum (in the secondary precept slot). Other sentinals that have a useful secondary precept like wyrm or shade won't even have one spot for vacuum, much less 3 or 4.

So what shall we take off? Coolant leak, first, although that's pretty nice. Regen, I guess, so if he dies that's it. And then... I guess animal instinct. I'm gonna miss that loot radar. And that enemy sense. And that aoe slow. and that entire sentinal after he dies because I took off regen.

Or maybe I could take off sanctuary. Just don't ask me to res you.

Or maybe guardian. Who needs shields anyway?

Or maybe we could be honest and say that we really don't have room for 3 mods, and this change will mean a nerf in one way or another.

1. Coolant Leak has about a 5 meter radius and is effected by Precept priority, which sorta sucks. 

2. If your Sentinel is already getting killed, its likely it'd be killed again pretty soon due to enemy scaling.

3. Sanctuary's shield only has a measly 600 hp, which is laughable in today's meta.

4. Guardian is still useful tho. 

Three of the mods you've stated are pretty redundant. 

[(XBOX)freakytiki3]

Such a divided community on such a ridiculously small topic. Vacuum is fairly outclassed by Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion, Djinn's Fatal Attraction, Shade's Ghost, Helio's Detect Vulnerability, even by Diriga's Arch Coil and Electro Pulse. In terms of usefulness Wyrm currently has no precept that allows him to compete with these in terms of crowd control or stealth.

[JacketUnHoly]

21 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

I think what they're trying to do is change Vacuum so that it's not Carrier-exclusive, thereby making other sentinels more viable in the eyes of the community, while keeping Vacuum as an optional item, not a guaranteed part of every build. If you have to put 3 mods on to get maximum effectiveness (obviously a considerable slot investment) then people might consider not including the mods in their builds, as opposed to having vacuum as only one mod and everyone always using it.

Of course the system isn't in place yet and we don't know everything about it so we'll have to wait and see what people do with the mods. 

I find it hard to believe you don't think people are going to use all three vacuum precepts if they can, slots irrelevant.

What I foresee happening is that, instead of choosing a unique loadout of precepts according to what you like, everyone uses a build of vacuum mods/survival mods/sanctuary. Slots aren't exactly at a premium on Sentinels, so we'll mostly be limited to how much we are willing to forma a Sentinel.

Edited September 17, 2016 by infamouscycle

[Blood_Poppy]

I Always Change my Sentinel/Kubrows/Kavat to Suit the Gameplay and Purpose.

 And This  Universal Vacuum mod Idea are Great.. 

BUT Instead Split Vacuum to 3 Different Mods, Just make it One. I need Slots For Others Useful Mods.

and i doesn't want to miss any Loots That Hidden Behind The Locked Door.. Yeah THE OROKIN VOID HIDDEN DOOR...

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, Agentawesome said:

2. If your Sentinel is already getting killed, its likely it'd be killed again pretty soon due to enemy scaling.

And yet there are times when this mod has been the difference between having a companion and not having one. But I guess since you say it's "redundant," meaning that it's utility is performed by something else (what though?), then I should be made to take it off so I can continue to collect loot and have fun.

 

3 minutes ago, Agentawesome said:

3. Sanctuary's shield only has a measly 600 hp, which is laughable in today's meta.

It sure seems nice when I'm rezzing people though! I'm only there for a few seconds, it doesn't have to be as tanky as a kubrow.

 

4 minutes ago, Agentawesome said:

1. Coolant Leak has about a 5 meter radius and is effected by Precept priority, which sorta sucks. 

Yeah, that kinda sucks, But 5 meters means melee enemies are slowed down. So... yeah. I kinda like it.

But you say these are "redundant." How, then shall I replace them? Or did you just mean that I'm not supposed to like them and therefore should be happy about this 3 mod thing?

[xaanos]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Such a divided community on such a ridiculously small topic. Vacuum is fairly outclassed by Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion, Djinn's Fatal Attraction, Shade's Ghost, Helio's Detect Vulnerability, even by Diriga's Arch Coil and Electro Pulse. In terms of usefulness Wyrm currently has no precept that allows him to compete with these in terms of crowd control or stealth.

Not if you need the loot. Which you always does.

[Azrael]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Such a divided community on such a ridiculously small topic. Vacuum is fairly outclassed by Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion, Djinn's Fatal Attraction, Shade's Ghost, Helio's Detect Vulnerability, even by Diriga's Arch Coil and Electro Pulse. In terms of usefulness Wyrm currently has no precept that allows him to compete with these in terms of crowd control or stealth.

Then think of how much better it would be if those sentinals could equip vacuum! Wowee!

Oh, but wait, doing that will require nerfing your build because DE has decided to split vacuum into 3 mods.

[Blitz702]

Imo they should just let all companions have built-in vacuum.

I'm not sure if they could make it so that pickups only get vacuumed if you have "space" for them

[YUNoJump]

1 minute ago, infamouscycle said:

I find it hard to believe you have been playing Warframe for long if you don't think people are going to use all three vacuum precepts if they can, slots irrelevant.

What I foresee happening is that, instead of choosing a unique loadout of precepts according to what you like, everyone uses a build of vacuum mods/survival mods/sanctuary. And that's it, because MediRay is replaceable with Lifestrike, Guardian is as pointless as shields themselves, and Striker messes with stealth frames so people will just leave it off to avoid Forma.

Slots aren't exactly at a premium on Sentinels.

Do you mean Striker as in the mod that each sentinel has (that changes name on each one) that actually allows the sentinel to fire its gun? If that is the case then either your sentinel guns haven't been very effective for you or you have a misinformed idea of what the community thinks of sentinel guns, which is to say they can be quite useful. I can't see that being a guaranteed drop from a build for the sole purpose of not having the gun go off in stealth. (I'm not 100% sure but I think sentinels only start shooting once an enemy has actually noticed you anyway)

On any given sentinel I personally run coolant leak, sanctuary, animal instinct, guardian and regen, along with the firing mod and the ability precept of each sentinel. To be honest I could probably get rid of coolant leak, but sanctuary, animal instinct, guardian and regen are all incredibly useful, I wouldn't dismiss them easily.

I'm not sure why you think shields are pointless, some frames have much higher shields than health, besides that every frame has shields and it allows you to take damage without requiring a source of health regeneration. Given that Guardian will recharge any shield regardless of its size, it is relatively useful on frames with average shields, and an amazing effect on frames like Mag and Volt with a focus on shields as their hitpoint pool.

With these mods installed I am using 6/7 slots on most sentinels and 7/8 on Carrier and Helios for their augments. This means that the vacuum mods would have to take up every other slot in my build, leaving no space for stuff like health and shields, which are also pretty useful, especially against stuff like Bombards and Napalms. If you don't see the vacuum mods as an absolute necessity (which they aren't really, might break the flow a bit but it doesn't take that long to pick up items) then I'd say that a lot of people wouldn't want to put the mods on.

Again, this hasn't actually been added yet so we can't know for certain, maybe every vacuum mod will take 20 mod power, maybe they'll cost 1, maybe something else will happen, let's wait and see.

[(XBOX)freakytiki3]

I just have see no value in Vacuum currently its a niche mod that relegates Carrier to newer players. Which is fine in and of itself, I really don't even care if they make it universal. My problem is that carrier still does nothing for higher level content (same issue with Dethcube)

Every other sentinel has a precept that will effect enemy units regardless of their level (again except for Dethcube)

With vacuum you're not actually getting more resource/mod pickups than players without Carrier, your just picking up more ammo.

Edited September 17, 2016 by (XB1)freakytiki3

[letir]

Just now, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Such a divided community on such a ridiculously small topic. Vacuum is fairly outclassed by Wyrm's Crowd Dispersion, Djinn's Fatal Attraction, Shade's Ghost, Helio's Detect Vulnerability, even by Diriga's Arch Coil and Electro Pulse. In terms of usefulness Wyrm currently has no precept that allows him to compete with these in terms of crowd control or stealth.

Do you even know that word "outclassed" means?

Other Sentients have a gimmicks, which are extremly underwhelming when you compare them to abilities of frames and even Syndicate effects.

Carrier have unique QoL ability, which are very important in the grind game.

[enJohneering]

Other than the almighty carrier, I like to play with helios for the free scans and very occasionally my Raska (I think that's it) Kubrow for the shield restore and terrify. 

During these missions, I have noticed that I simply skip 90% of the loot without carrier along for the trip. I don't really need the resources and running back and forth across a tile to get every last item is not engaging. Not only is it boring from a gameplay perspective, but it can be highly deadly in high-level missions where moving into a bad position to grab an energy orb can mean certain death. Now, I am a big fan of any sort of challenge being added to the game, but running around stepping on loot is not a fun way to feel that challenge. A few notes on missions without carrier:

- It slows down your movement as you are forced to run around instead of use the excellent parkour system. 

- It randomly disrupts positioning which is often being actively enforced by sapper osprey, nullifier crewmen, butchers, etc. 

- It distracts from the main focus of any mission, objectives and combat. 

Any way you look at it, staring at the ground is not the way to play Warframe. I can nerf my companions into the dirt by using 3 slots just to regain this capability, but I don't see why it can't be reduced to 1 slot only and simply improve the QoL of the game as a whole. 

[Azrael]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

With vacuum you're not actually getting more resource/mod pickups than players without Carrier, your just picking up more ammo.

Huh? This is nonsense. Of course players with vacuum get more. Unless you are walking around picking up every single drop, you're going to miss out.

[Xarteros]

Idea: Make all companion attack/ability precepts customisable, giving you the option of selecting specific variables to suit your playstyle. Each companion gains a separate slot (where Exilus slots go) for a basic attack/behaviour precept (replacing existing attack precepts), while other precepts would stay in their usual spots

Why: There's nothing more annoying than actually giving your sentinel a gun, only to have it waste all its time shooting enemies that an ancient healer is shielding, or have a kubrow spend its time using lengthy finisher attacks on things it could kill with one bat of a paw, when it could rip an eximus in half with that same charge. Wouldn't it be nice if you could specify how you want your companion to act?

How: When you click on a precept mod, it would bring up a new window, where you can select your variables. Variables would depend on what type of precept mod you are configuring. I'll list some example blocks of variables below. 

Disclaimer, some of these options could be excluded completely, but I have put them in as potential ideas in case they would work out well

Companion Attack Precepts: Configured by tabs for easier sorting and less crowding

1. Engagement range (Short/medium/long range) determines the distance your companion will attack from. Selection would be check-boxes that you can set individually, so if you want your sentinel to only attack mid-range targets, you deselect the short and long range check boxes. For Kubrows and Kavats, this setting changes the distance they will roam, allowing you to toggle short and mid-range off and make them only attack further away targets, for example
2. Attack conditions would allow you to select the specific circumstances you want your companion to attack in. Options could include [Enemies that have attacked master], [Only against alert enemies], [Only against unalerted enemies], [Only during lockdown] etc.
3. Target priority designates what order your companion should attack targets in. Options would be in a queue-like order, allowing the player to set their priority, but also toggle certain options off entirely. Options could include [Tough enemies], [Weak enemies], [Eximus units], [Long ranged enemies], [Melee enemies] etc.

Vacuum:

1. Loot selection would set what loot your vacuum mod picks up. This would combine the new vacuum mods into one again (hurrah!) and let you select what loot gets picked up. You could break up the options to individual items for better customisation. Having less options selected should increase the range/power of the remaining options, so if you only want your sentinel to pick up ammo for example, it would pick up from a much larger range than normal
2. Overstocking would limit when the sentinel actually provides you with your ammo/health/energy pickups, with yes/no options for overstocking. No Overstocking would mean that you would only get each pickup if you had enough room to gain the max benefit of that pickup (Can't pickup a 25 energy orb until you are at least 25 below your max energy etc). Yes to Overstocking would act as it currently does, absorbing the pickup as soon as there is ANY room (can pick up an energy orb as long as you are at least 1 point below max). A few exceptions might need to be made for certain weapon's ammo pools.
3. Over-looting would prevent the sentinel from drawing more than one of any individual type of pickup at once, until each pickup is used. This would mean your sentinel would only carry one energy orb around and give it to you when your energy drops down, and would need to re-use the vacuum ability to pick up another orb when the first one is consumed. This allows players to prevent loot from being drawn in to one point excessively, keeping the pickups more spread-out to be easily found later. Not really sure if this idea would be as useful, but it might be.

I might edit this later with more specific suggestions for other precepts, but I'm out of time for now. In general, attack abilities like Dethcube's Laser, Diriga's Electro Pulse or Sunika's Savagery should have options that let you prioritise targets, separately from the general attack precept (letting you focus a sentinel to only attack small enemies, but save abilities for larger enemies, etc). Certain abilities like Stalk/Ghost might have options to only trigger in the presence of multiple enemies, or stronger enemies. Some precepts wouldn't really have much need for options, like Sanctuary, but this system would just work on an as-needed basis. 

Post ideas for other precepts below, or help iron out any problems I've overlooked. Be constructive, there's no point in just posting to say that you don't like any of the ideas at all unless you're suggesting a way to make them better (keeping things how they are doesn't count as a suggestion). 

[Trichouette]

Even though I like the ideas, I don't like using "mod" to fix a feature.

All I truly want is a "attack target" command for my kubrow/kavat, like pressing G while looking at a nulifier and the kubrow/kavat charges into the bubble to destroy him.

[MopUpCrewman]

Reading this forum I am left wondering how everyone is so dependant on Vacuum when I've never needed it in my entire playtime. 

[WERElektro]

Why is everyone so frikkin upset?

Vacuum was totally op anyway. Carrier was basically the meta, and now it's getting a slight nerf - making you consider to also use the other sentinels .

I for one welcome the change. It will be interesting to choose a different sentinel.

It's just some balancing. Hakuna your Tatas.