Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

I challenge Carrier companion mains to try using other companions  for a week of playing. So you can actually see the difference that carrier makes in mod/resource collection.

Why do you think you are talking to people who have only ever used carrier?  Do you think that you are the only player who has used something other than carrier?

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

1 hour ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

Please stop with the Carrier drama it's like the Mesa rework (nerf) all over again.

I challenge Carrier companion mains to try using other companions  for a week of playing. So you can actually see the difference that carrier makes in mod/resource collection. To be honest my most used companion is still Carrier Prime 21%   my second most used is Carrier at 18%.  But recently my go to sentinel has been Wyrm  he activates Crowd Dispersion and ere'body in the club drops. Almost every missions i still have the most mods collected or tied for the most mods collected playing with teammates using Carrier.  It's going to be alright we will survive.

I have used other companions, most recently a Smeeta. It had little effect on my collected resources, but was very detrimental to my enjoyment of the game. Whether Carrier is necessary or not isn't the point, people like vacuum, I don't see the downside of adding a setting. I'll certainly survive regardless, I might just be playing something less tedious any annoying.

[GreyEnneract]

Until ammo actually becomes important, Carrier will go from the top used to the least used.

You would think they would make him suck in enemies towards the player or something.

As for Vacuum itself, DE messed up two ways if they keep the current idea they have.

Changing it into a mod > splitting it into three parts.

The ideal change would be just making it a passive for sentinels only, or possibly also being tied to Kubrow collars and creating a Kavat counterpart.

With the common ground change being just making Vacuum a universal sentinel mod.

Instead, DE is currently going an extra step to make it three mods, when it's a well known fact that mod space has been an issue for awhile.

Either way, I'm sticking to Kavats. Just giving my 2 cents for the OP.

[Azrael]

2 hours ago, (XB1)freakytiki3 said:

I challenge Carrier companion mains to try using other companions  for a week of playing. So you can actually see the difference that carrier makes in mod/resource collection. To be honest my most used companion is still Carrier Prime 21%   my second most used is Carrier at 18%.  But recently my go to sentinel has been Wyrm  he activates Crowd Dispersion and ere'body in the club drops.

None of this explains how it's good for the game to nerf vacuum. Or to not have universal vacuum. Since that's the subject at hand, it'd be real neato if you addressed THAT. You know, rather than patronizing us.

"try using other companions  for a week of playing. So you can actually see the difference that carrier makes"

yeah, as if nobody in this thread but you has ever used anything else.

[Volinus7]

The easiest way to solve this problem

Player : Innate Vacuum

Carrier : Bigger Vacuum

 

Done.

[Foefaller]

Maybe because I'm one of the six people who don't use carrier most of the time...

...but I've never seen vacuum as a *must.* Useful? Sure. but I'm not hating every moment I don't have it because Carrier got blown up or I'm using another companion for whatever reason. I couldn't care less if they decide not to make it universal, and if DE wants to split vacuum into multiple sentinel mods, that's fine by me. Seems like quite a few people in this thread see vacuum as a requirement, even an inalienable right, rather than an option.

Still, three types seems like a stretch. Having one for all things that make the mission easier (Health/Energy/Mods) and one for all things used outside the mission (Credits/Resources/Mods/etc) seems like it would make more sense than trying to come up with a 3rd mod type, unless it'a going to be universal vaccum at a smaller radius than what we have today.

 

EDIT: That came off too harsh, apologies. What I mean to say is that in my 2+ years of playing I haven't been lead to believe that universal vacuum for non-archwing is a quality-of-life change that must be implemented.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Foefaller

[dashashou]

18 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

The easiest way to solve this problem

Player : Innate Vacuum

Carrier : Bigger Vacuum

 

Done.

just like having helms have arcane slot and a appearance slot  simple and not part of DE vision  ... sadly

Edited September 18, 2016 by Ravel7
needed a dash of salt

[taiiat]

if Players take a step back and truly played Missions without Carrier floating above them, they would find that one can easily - without breaking off from what they're doing otherwise to any relevant degree - pickup l00t while they are flying around the map, avoiding incoming Damage and dealing with Enemies.

except for the Players that like Carrier because in abusive Gameplay it allows easier non-attentive gameplay.

1 hour ago, Arkvold said:

putting a person on your ignore list should prevent you from being matched with them if you join or host games on Public mode.

it creates a slippery slope of toxicity - in every game that has it. most big ones that feature it, end up removing it later as some people will use it to avoid playing with Players with the goal of forcing higher Skilled Players out of their sessions, for example.

opting to prefer to play with Players works, but blocking out Players willy nilly doesn't.

[(XBOX)LexaHex]

The carrier change is great, just what the community wanted. 

Vacuum on the other hand... extremely disappointed, no one asked for vacuum to be 3 separate mods. DE is trying to find a solution to mods people need to have on their builds, but they just added 3 new ones. Its really great knowing I need 1 mod for my sentinel to do its ability, another 1 for it to shoot and 3 more on top to just have a normal vacuum. 5/10 mods are just mods that have to be one every single sentinel build, great. Sure they changed carrier, which is great, and they gave us a more usable vacuum (still not universal), but they literally just nerfed vacuum, thats just great.   

Carrrier will still remain as the most use sentinel (and companion too) considering carrier prime has the most survivability of all sentinels by a mile. Every other sentinel can just be one shoted and bam, just like that, you lose your vacuum for the rest of the game, even better when you're doing an endless mission. Seems like DE acknowledged the problem but didn't actually try to fix it whatsoever, as if they want us to burn and suffer for playing their game and giving feedback. For the love of Lotus, just make vacuum universal/innate on all frames, no mods, no bs. And for those of you who don't like vacuum, then a simple fix for that would be to have an options in the menu to turn on/off the vacuum.

everybody is happy    

 

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if Players take a step back and truly played Missions without Carrier floating above them, they would find that one can easily - without breaking off from what they're doing otherwise to any relevant degree - pickup l00t while they are flying around the map, avoiding incoming Damage and dealing with Enemies.

But the pickup radius is really small and dodgy. I did a mission today with my Kubrow, I would literally walk past resources and not pick them up. My frame's ankles would be touching the node, and I'd have to stop and take one step to the left or right for it to register. People like Vacuum because it should be the default, it lets them play without having to stop and go "Oh, wait I just walked right over a mod and was off by two pixels, hang on guys let me go grab that. Whoops now you're three rooms ahead of me."

You say they don't have to break off from what they're doing to any relevant degree, but this mission I played was a simple defense mission. I had to go well out of my way to pick up anything. Resources, health and ammo. Unless I wanted to stand around and wait for things to come to me, the pickups would be so scattered around I couldn't get many before the next round would start. This was just while playing solo, so I didn't even run into the connection issue where pickups freeze mid-air.

[JHarlequin]

 On one side it's kind of good because it's approaching the lack of reasonability behind precepts being sentinel behaviors.  On the other hand it's crap because it's more useless mods.

 So, first point, precepts were supposedly behaviors that you slot into your sentinel to make it do things.  Except they aren't really behaviors when they are just sentinel specific activations.  Why do we need seven different "Shoot gun" mods.  If the precepts were behaviors, then we would have shoot anytime, Shoot when I shoot, and Shoot only during alerts but instead we have seven different shoot mods, one for each sentinel.  Not very behavior like design, and a flood of useless mods.

 Add on that some sentinel abilities could be shared decently, and a couple abilities have been shared, things really should change about most of the sentinel "precepts"

 Changing vacuum to be available for any sentinel is sort of okay.  I would prefer making it available only on a few of the sentinels rather then splitting it into three different mods.  Still, it is a change that might be nice until we pay attention to the fact that it is adding more mods.  Too many mods already even for sentinels, and not a really great reasoning behind vacuuming one type of item over others.  Are credits just magically tougher to pick up then mods and endo?

 As to the alternative concept of making Carrier be built to carry more ammo.  I have run out of ammo maybe five times ever, and only when I use total bullet hose guns.  There are many ways to not run out of ammo up until certain activities, and during those activities, the explosions fly like crazy so Carrier will be destroyed.  Since we can't revive our sentinels, an ammo carrying sentinel is going to be little more valuable then the ability to shoot ourselves.

[DSpite]

4 hours ago, Catacomb said:

can't see how any of that is caused or even related to vacuum. 

I agree.

Also, to do what the OP wants, the entire mission system needs to change as well, otherwise Cryopod "Defense" will be renamed "Cryopod Camping".

The system we have is not the system I want either, but this "gloom and doom" rubbish about Vacuum is unwarranted. It's not as if "not picking up every scrap of loot" makes you space poor and an "automatic end loot" system will have one main consequence - LESS loot then a person that just picked up everything by running around, because there is less point rewarding people for pressing some keys while standing in one place watching Netflix.

Missions will HAVE to change to move to an end reward system.

[JohnnyQuantum]

It is a good QOL change.

But why three separate mods for the same functionality?

 

[98Octane]

7 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Blah blah blah

If you want vacuum for your QoL then I don't want my orbs and ammo being used up without me specifically wanting them to be. That's MY QoL. Being 1hp down and having a full health orb used up is inefficient and not something I prefer. Does that make sense for you? Because you know what makes no sense to me? Why people that have enough resources to craft everything in the game, twice over, want every single drop to be sucked up constantly.

Why not be a genius and if u have all resources just dont use carrier... problem solved instead run around to collect orbs .. and by saying blah blah u just proved my point, and secondly if someone is running out of hp/energy all the time well sorry to say check ur build not cry for vacuum and people want extra resources as we have clans to run and when ever a new thing comes out we like to finish it asap so low MRs  dont have to contribute their precious stuff, or do u not remember how many tellerium / oxium was needed for the amesha/elytron research .. now try the same in Moon or mountain

Edited September 18, 2016 by 98Octane

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, DAWGUNITALPHA said:

-snip-

Players that know they have high Latency to basically everything may wish to use Carrier to help compensate to some degree - but then will likely find that Carrier is susceptible to Latency as well.

short of that, the pickup Radius on Players is ~2.5-3m or so.

[Redthirst]

I really don't understand why it's not a thing. I can understand manual loot pick-up in games like Diablo, where inventory management is a large part of the game, so you have to choose what you want to pick up. In Warframe, we can pick up everything that drops, so there's no real reason to force us to collect stuff manually.

[-FaberXzio-]

gg all of you people who complained about the carrier, insted of making the dev making the other sentinels more usefull, you made them kill the only one that was decent, this is legitimate trash, good job everyone.

 

3 mods doing what ONE mod was doing... really? and you all are happy about this?? hell... i would even be happier if the carrier's weapon slot was taken out...  and please... ammo capacity bufff? what a lame excuse for a "i have no idea of what to do with the carrier now that it has no unique function"

 

this is either the dev running out of ideas to make the other sentinels actually usefull because everything was about the carrier since the other sentinels cant even do properly their own job, or about the people who want the other sentinels to actually be useful and dev just saying yes to whatever people insist on.... this is no popular desition... ive seen more people ingame disgusted about this change than the number of people saying "i like this, this is ok"

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, FaberXzio said:

gg all of you people who complained about the carrier, insted of making the dev making the other sentinels more usefull, you made them kill the only one that was decent, this is legitimate trash, good job everyone.

Don't blame us. Literally nobody asked for this. We asked for universal vacuum (with either 1 mod or no mod required), and DE decided to ignore that and give us this instead.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Lord_Azrael

[98Octane]

4 minutes ago, FaberXzio said:

gg all of you people who complained about the carrier, insted of making the dev making the other sentinels more usefull, you made them kill the only one that was decent, this is legitimate trash, good job everyone.

 

3 mods doing what ONE mod was doing... really? and you all are happy about this?? hell... i would even be happier if the carrier's weapon slot was taken out...  and please... ammo capacity bufff? what a lame excuse for a "i have no idea of what to do with the carrier now that it has no unique function"

 

this is either the dev running out of ideas to make the other sentinels actually usefull because everything was about the carrier since the other sentinels cant even do properly their own job, or about the people who want the other sentinels to actually be useful and dev just saying yes to whatever people insist on.... this is no popular desition... ive seen more people ingame disgusted about this change than the number of people saying "i like this, this is ok"

no one asked for this, oh well may be a handful in the council, that only council members aka founder members can attest to. 

[Zaniel_Aus]

Why break it into 3 parts? People who like Carrier and want to move fast will need to equip 2-3 mods just to vacuum and everyone will take the Mod/Resource version as the first pick because of mods and stuff dropping outside the map.

Its just DE overthinking everything as usual.

Just make the existing Vacuum mod equipable on all Companions (not just Sentinels) and be done with it. Or give players inherent Vacuum and open up those slots for something more interesting.

[Demon.King]

23 hours ago, Demon.King said:

If vacuum has to remain a mod, and people want customisation, I just thought, how about we make precept mod ranks actually count for something for once and make each level add a drop type to collect, rather than range.

That is:

R0 - Credits/Resources

R1 - Mods/Endo

R2 - Miscellaneous

R3 - Ammo

R4 - Health

R5 - Energy

 

Note that each level is additive, not exclusive. At R5 you would basically have the current R5 Vacuum.

Near full customisation (even more than the proposed system anyway), 0 drawbacks compared to current. Win Win?

^ yes?

Edited September 18, 2016 by Demon.King

[Dell_the_Engie]

Okay, now that we're finally opening this for discussion: DE, the problem here really isn't this difficult.  Vacuum does not need to be split up.  Vacuum doesn't even need to be a mod.  You already know that those mods will become "mandatory", as much as Serration is a mandatory mod for your rifle.  Steve has talked about the problem with mandatory mods for weapons, so clearly you feel that mandatory mods are an issue.

Vacuum is not merely a matter of preference for a small group of players.  This is a consensus with 90% of your playerbase, DE.  The game just feels better with Vacuum.  For the type of game you have made; a fast-paced action game, with hordes of enemies, and an emphasis on gathering resources, it makes perfect sense.  Warframe will benefit when this is no longer a mod, but merely a feature of the game; something that no one will have to think about, because it's just there and it works.  Dividing Vacuum's function achieves the exact opposite result, and keeping it as a Sentinel-exclusive mod only solves half of the problem.

^{Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal (2004)}

You have an opportunity now.  Right now, you can take a big step toward setting all companions on equal footing.  Players might actually use animal companions as much as sentinels.  And you can take a mandatory mod, and make it an innate quality, in either Warframes or companions, inconspicuous and ubiquitous.  Nothing more, nothing less, and I promise you will be thankful you did it.  Everyone will be thankful you did it.  There is no need to worry about balance issues; quality of life improvements are not OP.  Mag might need another passive, and that would be fine.  The number of problems this would solve far outweighs the few minor complications it might create.  Do yourself a favor, do your players this favor: the simplest solution to this problem also happens to be the best one.

[Avalona]

6 minutes ago, Dell_the_Engie said:

*quote and stuff*

I wish I could give more than 100 upvotes for this suggestion.

As a side note on Mag's possible new passive, just slap her the Electromagnetic Anomaly effect (from sortie) for any enemies hitting her with melee.

Also splitting the vacuum mod into 3 separate one goes against your "We don't want to make this game look like a giant grindwall" declaration you've made (the same declaration that give people hope to cling onto this game) so much there's no spoken word for it.

Treads carefully, DE, it's 2016, Warframe is not the only game in the market, players have choices. This is for your own good. Warframe is already well-known as one of the grindiest game, you have the power to make it better, or make it even worse.

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

Splitting it up into three different types? Sweet heavens this will not turn out good. 

[Sold0ut]

Wow, that Ratchet & Clank gif is really one of the best ways to show how necessary Universal Vacuum really is. Kudos on that.