Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[Leonix13]

9 hours ago, (PS4)greensmaragd said:

I see in my mind's eye ....
A Arcana ... name is SUCK Arcana ....

* laughs

You laugh, but a Vacuum Arcane is a better idea than mods imo.

[TheScytale]

18 hours ago, marelooke said:

Sweeper with Blast is pretty good CC tbh... (could put it on another Sentinel, sure, never saw the point though)

Well, every "attack" precept behaves differently, which means the range isn't actually tied to the weapon but to the sentinel itself. Diriga for example can shoot enemies 70m away, even with a sweeper equipped, same as Djinn (60m away), while Carrier only shoots enemies up to 10m away. And that's not even counting the respective CC precepts for Djinn and Diriga.

So if you're looking for CC, Carrier is really not the best of choices out there.

[(PSN)greensmaragd]

2 hours ago, Leonix13 said:

You laugh, but a Vacuum Arcane is a better idea than mods imo.

I think it too. The irony it was not a joke. I lough for my good idea. similar to Joker.

Somewhere further above I wrote. A Arcana with 5 meters range. Carrier is the sucker king, but the player have a different alterntive.

Here is it :

   <<<<Suck Arcane  Chance PASSIVE / Effect sucks / Duration Range 1-2-3-4-5-Meters /Rarity is Rare

I give De all rigths for 1000 Plat ;D .... $.$ or 500 and a test version :P

Edited September 20, 2016 by (PS4)greensmaragd

[Tizodd]

18 hours ago, MJ12 said:

DE, do you remember coptering?

For those of you new players, certain melee weapons allowed you to basically 'bulletjump' back in the day. However, if you didn't have one of those equipped you were out of luck. DE could have just decided to make coptering a mod split across several weapons, but DE's solution to this problem was good.

DE chose to give all of us the ability to lunge in a direction rapidly via bullet-jumping. And then they gave us mods which increased that ability. This is what I'd call a good solution.

Give every Warframe, for example, a 6m pickup radius (half of carrier's). Then make the old Carrier Precept equippable on any sentinel which adds even more to that radius, a la Animal Instinct. Let's say 20% per upgrade, so at r5 you get 220% of the base pickup radius, or a little more than Carrier's original radius. There. Now picking up loot isn't awful by default and you have a mod which lets you get a larger pickup radius if you want that.

This would be the 'compromise' solution. What we're getting is a monkey's paw wish, where our desires are translated into the most fundamentally passive-aggressive action possible.

I would prefer frames be given vacuum's current range, but your suggestion is a decent compromise.  The mod would need to be for all companions though, not just sentinels.

[Demon.King]

3 hours ago, Leonix13 said:

You laugh, but a Vacuum Arcane is a better idea than mods imo.

Do you use arcanes? Do you know how they work? You're pretty much saying that everyone should either shell out 6000 plat to use vacuum, OR play for a year of daily Raids while praying to RNGesus, AND on top of that since its would be rare and expensive, play ALWAYS with the same syandana...

No thanks.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Demon.King

[timur_the_lame]

26 minutes ago, Demon.King said:

Do you use arcanes? Do you know how they work? You're pretty much saying that everyone should either shell out 6000 plat to use vacuum, OR play for a year of daily Raids while praying to RNGesus, AND on top of that since its would be rare and expensive, play ALWAYS with the same syandana...

No thanks.

This.  An arcane would be even more prohibitive than splitting vacuum into three mods and requiring a player to use sentinels.  New players, who benefit most from vacuum, would basically be SOL.  Experienced players would be consigned to an extremely long, tedious, and annoying grind to get something which does nothing other than improve their quality of life while playing the game.  Completely counter-intuitive. 

[Genoscythe]

Guys, it's 2016. If we have to run over every pickup in this game it's just cheap and boring. It does not add anything to the game. We are not talking about balancing some OP ability that simplifies the whole game here. It's about pickup range, a pure quality of life improvement to the loot aspect of the game.

Let's just make it a standard Warframe feature to pick up credits/endo/mods for every frame. Then make a mod for sentinels that actually affect the only pickups important for the actual in-mission gameplay: Health, Energy, Ammo and Affinity.

[(PSN)PickedaName]

I like the change. It's kind of weird that they might split it in to 3 mods but w/e. Honestly I'd just like to not feel like I'm obligated to use Carrier just because Vacuum is so useful. I've never been a fan of the pets so opening up my sentinel options would be cool.

The ammo precept is solid to me also. It's simplistic but fills a role. Most precepts don't really do anything amazing anyways.

[(PSN)greensmaragd]

10 minutes ago, timur_the_lame said:

This.  An arcane would be even more prohibitive than splitting vacuum into three mods and requiring a player to use sentinels.  New players, who benefit most from vacuum, would basically be SOL.  Experienced players would be consigned to an extremely long, tedious, and annoying grind to get something which does nothing other than improve their quality of life while playing the game.  Completely counter-intuitive. 

What is your Idea? We are not in Kerbys Dremland!  a little suck does the frame so basically. You can be happy that you do not have to click each drop individually. 

Because of such a lazy attitude -the void is now gone

It's a game. In which you have to achieve something. If you now own the pick of the items. would do absolutely nothing. What really still play Warframe? If only to be shot. then play call of duty. Or take Carrier

[steelblueskies]

On 9/18/2016 at 0:53 AM, taiiat said:

if Players take a step back and truly played Missions without Carrier floating above them, they would find that one can easily - without breaking off from what they're doing otherwise to any relevant degree - pickup l00t while they are flying around the map, avoiding incoming Damage and dealing with Enemies.

except for the Players that like Carrier because in abusive Gameplay it allows easier non-attentive gameplay.

it creates a slippery slope of toxicity - in every game that has it. most big ones that feature it, end up removing it later as some people will use it to avoid playing with Players with the goal of forcing higher Skilled Players out of their sessions, for example.

opting to prefer to play with Players works, but blocking out Players willy nilly doesn't.

first point. even with a small sample of around 20 runs in someplace like seimeni, a dark sector defense on ceres, the kubrow and kavat players where picking up, on average according to mission result summary, just over 1/3rd less than those with carrier at max. even with carrier there was variance.

over 5 rounds, we would be talking figures like 81 for companion user, and 271 peak carrier player, with the outher carrier users netting according to extrema ~180 on the low and 220 for the other.

now even saying thats partly orbs and ammo, thats a big dang discrepancy.

it shows up differences in player movement with carrier and build pickup reliances at the same time, as the flat lower pickup rates on average of the kub/kavat users seen so far.

how do you balance income rates based on drop rng, if you also add massive variance to the picked up from drops as another rng layer that you cannot directly manipulate? answer you use the system which skews it to a more consistent range. hello vacuum.

 

btw check your wikis. i've seen posts on how some never see mods drop outside the map as it were. wiki says they aren't highlighted outside there with animal instinct. so how would you know what you didn't get?

i've also seen people blame vacuum for floating drops, play with pilferoid and nekros, with iffy host latency, or simulors. same deal will crop up. also with desecrating corpses flying via explosives at times.

 

as to your latter point on ignore and non matching, this isn't pvp we are talking here with a rating system people are trying to manipulate. this is foremost cooperative no ranking either.

you want it to push on without for conclave, fine. 

 

that said, you de fellows said you wanted more sentinel diversity.

vacuum is a large factor absolutely, but its not the only one.

the fact that carrier, and its prime are some of the beefiest, most resistant to the attritional damage from venemous eximuses, and things like mutalist osprey toxin gas clouds gradually wearing them down. if even indirect crap will kill lower health sentinel primes in less than half the time guess what, survivability is an issue.

 

i will put aside the suggestion most players make to newer ones when they hear the new player is trying to do howl of the kubrow. "don't, because you need your credits for weapons/frames etc and companions have daily upkeep." "so what should i get then older player?" "get carrier."

then theres the skew for those that self research.

gets howl of the kubrow, looks it up. finds out about sentinels, starts looking at sentinels on the wiki, finally sees carriers gun is more damage than their mk-1 primary, wants it for damage.

 

oh and there's yet another reason carrier is a high rate pick.

three of the other sentinels are gated inside dojos/clans.

compare your open market blueprint sentinels, and their weapon damage. and again the new guy is going to go for the big damage, and most common advice from associates, randoms, and google.

then theres the design of the sentinels. carrier is generic. pull of striker and t won't attack, stealth skills cloak the sentinel too. vacuum always works in any scenario.

the other sentinels are intended for specific jobs/gameplay. if i can already stealth myself and my pet, why the feck would i want shade? worse if i want my pet to deal damage shades attack precept is "on get attacked only".

this underscores a weakness with the designs. i can't get more varied mods for attack precepts for each sentinel to really customize each either. often their special precepts are redundant, or work dubiously to the special purpose while being outclassed by other methods of achieving the same thing.

if one is new and only has slots for one sentinel and weapon, do i want a specialized option that won't suit all scenarios, or a generic sentinel that while not best at all, is not an active hindrance in any.

yep.

need to review sentinel weapons and how damage is presented, right alongside sentinel health and the companion upkeep cost per day(maybe roll health diminish to unrevived pet death instead of per day automatic).

 

then allow for that universal single mod for pickups and allow it on companions as well BUT its the companions applying a drop magnetizing affect to the owners warframe, not the pet. otherwise we get loot chasing a scrambling kavat all over the g'danged map.

 

next you need to actually break out the work ledger and prime some more sentinels, maybe some prime esque collar for the kavats to boot(to match the kubrows). work up more variants of mod precepts for repeat functions and/or make them usable on many sentinels. if i want a dethcube that only attacks when i am attacked, that should be doable. if i want shade to go ham, that should be doable.

 

after that remember the only two simaris mods for pets are for helios and carrier only. guess what that leads to

pop out more for each, or make some universal simaris mods. heck looter could be one as it stands.

then consider how a player seeing carrier suggested, knowing it has the best weapon damage bundled in so they need to make it for the shotgun alone, will behave with only enough sentinel slots for the sweeper and carrier used to get it.

they will simply keep it lacking enough slots to collect another sentinel without losing the sweet sentinel shotty. 

and of course they can play with breeding companions on the side, one at a time, but its rng heavy, both on type and on appearance. that on top of expense to keep... oh and not to mention the argon crystal and 100k creds per energy cell which is also a bit of a giant wall from the perspective of early on.

so yeah, lots of systems and factors come together to push carrier to top usage. uni-vacuum will help, but without actually working the other factors up to more viable levels, and diminishing the downsides in other areas, it really won't matter much to the goal you are trying, or at least stated you were trying to achieve.. more usage of other sentinels.

[timur_the_lame]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)greensmaragd said:

What is your Idea? We are not in Kerbys Dremland!  a little suck does the frame so basically. You can be happy that you do not have to click each drop individually. 

Because of such a lazy attitude -the void is now gone

It's a game. In which you have to achieve something. If you now own the pick of the items. would do absolutely nothing. What really still play Warframe? If only to be shot. then play call of duty. Or take Carrier

My idea is to make vacuum inherent to warframes themselves, like it should be.  I'm not quite sure what you are saying with most of your post, but the point is that they (DE) are going out of their way to make vacuum more annoying and worse to use, when they should be going in the opposite direction, which is why your point about taking carrier no longer applies.

[Valaska]

So wrote out a detailed thing asking why should Vacuum be a thing and not an innate warframe ability etc etc yadda yadda. The post got shadow removed without warning what-so-ever and I can't find it anywhere on search! So putting up a much briefer version.

 

This game used to be one tiny little hallway you had to run around and barely any enemies, running over stuff just happened. We had stamina, we couldn't move around much and yeah we were pretty limited and less than ninja's. But now we have this amazingly cool parkour, flipping around flying everywhere, huge rooms, thousands of enemies, hundreds of drops etc! We're here for THAT, we are here for the fun of killing things, not to stop and play farmville running around picking up stuff or keeping an eye on what things drop instead of having fun ethnically cleansing clones or wallstreet execs.

That's not fun, and neither is making every darn sentinel REQUIRE 3 more mods taking away even more flavor or choice away from the game. We do NOT need them being exilius or aura which make our Warframes even MORE static than they are now! This will not add in originality of variety to the game, it will still keep us from picking kubrows and catbrows, as 95% of people run Carrier.

 

PLEASE! Make Vacuum an INNATE ability picking up any mods or loot dropped! Ammo, Health, Energy orbs sure if you really want to upset people leave those as finnicky unfun run around and collect mechanics... But for quality of life please just let us have vacuum for the things that matter the most!

[Tizodd]

I agree that all frames should have innate area looting and so do many players.  But I'm pretty sure this thread will either be deleted or merged into one of the megathreads.

[(XBOX)Gamehowitzer]

On 9/19/2016 at 2:17 PM, Eredoc said:

Also Consider renaming the thread, it is a bit misleading.

any idea what to rename the thread because i cant think of anything.

[Valaska]

38 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

I agree that all frames should have innate area looting and so do many players.  But I'm pretty sure this thread will either be deleted or merged into one of the megathreads.

Oh is that what happened? I didn't realize it got merged into one of the other ones, those ones are asking for silly things like making Vacuum into a weapon or something like that... I think that is just super silly and it should just be an innate thing built into us since the game has changed so much!

Thanks for the heads up though, plus points for you!

[BulletsforTeeth]

I must be one of few people rooting for this change. You claim it limits choice, but in fact, it's the opposit. It allows us to choose what things we vacuum up. Don't want to waste any precious ammo, by picking up 5 when you need 1? Don't want to waste energy or health the same way? We can do that now. We have more choice, but we also need to pick and choose, which is exactly what modding is all about. Otherwise you'd have warframes running around with 275% in every stat and 75% efficiency. The fact that we need to pick and choose something based on utility is nothing to cry about. Be happy that we can use other sentinals and learn to prioritise, that's my 2 cents.

Plus it could be worse, they could've removed vacuum altogether. Considering some questionable changes in the past, this is pretty damn good.

Edited September 21, 2016 by BulletsforTeeth

[(PSN)greensmaragd]

3 hours ago, timur_the_lame said:

My idea is to make vacuum inherent to warframes themselves, like it should be.  I'm not quite sure what you are saying with most of your post, but the point is that they (DE) are going out of their way to make vacuum more annoying and worse to use, when they should be going in the opposite direction, which is why your point about taking carrier no longer applies.

my post come here be mod, without function XD

[MokutoBunshi]

I just.... really was hoping for, I have no idea really..something else, when they did devstream 80... 

Brozime said it best:

 

]\'[

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

I must be one of few people rooting for this change. You claim it limits choice, but in fact, it's the opposit. It allows us to choose what things we vacuum up.

So by that logic, if DE told you that they were changing warframe so tenno could carry only one weapon you would see that as a good thing because it allows the tenno to choose which weapon to bring?

It also nerfs the other sentinels, kavats, and kubrow as it takes off more than one mod.

1 hour ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

Plus it could be worse, they could've removed vacuum altogether. Considering some questionable changes in the past, this is pretty damn good.

Yeah, it's like hitting yourself on the foot with a hammer because it feels so good when you stop.

[IRVoidGuru]

15 hours ago, Leonix13 said:

Its a game mechanic, you are suppose to stop to pick them up, just like you have to stop to pick up energy cells for excavators, void fissures, or the thingy for mobile defense, or how you have to stop to use the life support capsule, or even reload. Its apart of the game mode.

if this was true then mini life supports would have NEVER been available as Vacuum drops. almost 90 percent of the server Uses this mod and sees it as a Nessasary mod for All game types not just this one. its not a game mechanic as you say for if it was you would have to walk over Each mini support and press "square" for me at least to pick Each one up

now once again for the Third time can we get back on subject. and let me be clear the subject isnt weather Life support being able to be vacuumed is nessasary ( as we have already seen it is ) the point is that Life Support Drops should be obtainable via ALL 3 of these new mods.

if you have feed back then plz comment back but if your point still remains as "go pick it up" then you are unable to understand the Subject at hand and should move on as i will. if you can't think of any Reason in witch having life support be able to be Vacuumed is a harm to you or another player then i dont see why you simply keep repeatedly making the argument "go pick it up " when 80+ percent of players have already rejected your ideal

Edited September 21, 2016 by (PS4)IrSchm33

[BulletsforTeeth]

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

So by that logic, if DE told you that they were changing warframe so tenno could carry only one weapon you would see that as a good thing because it allows the tenno to choose which weapon to bring?

It also nerfs the other sentinels, kavats, and kubrow as it takes off more than one mod.

Yeah, it's like hitting yourself on the foot with a hammer because it feels so good when you stop.

One, lose the salt. That's not how you make feedback.

Two, that is a bad analogy. This is not three different weapons, this is the modding system. Where, you know, you have to prioritise. Look at warframes. You specialise based upon what stats they make  the most use of, or what abilities fit your playstyle best. Guess what? Same thing here. SOME of us like to vacuum everything in all at once. Good for them. But they need to lose something in return, surviveability or utility. There choice. Some of us don't like wasting pickups of ammo, or energy, because they give a set amount but do not go over capacity. Therefore, they only need one or two mods, and don't end up wasting ammo or energy pickups.

It nerfs nothing, it provides choice, and tradeoffs. Not every single aspect is crucial to everyone. It also is only available to sentinals, but the utility and such of kubrows is another topic.

And no, it isn't. It's called looking on the bright side. When you accidentally hit your foot with a hammer, or wipe out on the road, first aid or medical care can hurt like a *@##&#036;. But hey, it feels better after, and it heals right. If DE decided that getting rid of vacuum, they'd have reasoning behind it. They may not tell us, sure. Why? Because the only thing that 90% of the forum base would do is throw salt and tantrums, rather than providing actual feedback. Same thing here. Once the changes come, those of us who like it will get what we've been asking for. Those who don't care about efficency and making everything count will whine, cry, throw salt, and then, eventually, adapt.
 

[timur_the_lame]

14 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

Two, that is a bad analogy. This is not three different weapons, this is the modding system. Where, you know, you have to prioritise. Look at warframes. You specialise based upon what stats they make  the most use of, or what abilities fit your playstyle best. Guess what? Same thing here. SOME of us like to vacuum everything in all at once. Good for them. But they need to lose something in return, surviveability or utility. There choice. Some of us don't like wasting pickups of ammo, or energy, because they give a set amount but do not go over capacity. Therefore, they only need one or two mods, and don't end up wasting ammo or energy pickups.

It nerfs nothing, it provides choice, and tradeoffs. Not every single aspect is crucial to everyone. It also is only available to sentinals, but the utility and such of kubrows is another topic.

And no, it isn't. It's called looking on the bright side. When you accidentally hit your foot with a hammer, or wipe out on the road, first aid or medical care can hurt like a *@##&#036;. But hey, it feels better after, and it heals right. If DE decided that getting rid of vacuum, they'd have reasoning behind it. They may not tell us, sure. Why? Because the only thing that 90% of the forum base would do is throw salt and tantrums, rather than providing actual feedback. Same thing here. Once the changes come, those of us who like it will get what we've been asking for. Those who don't care about efficency and making everything count will whine, cry, throw salt, and then, eventually, adapt.
 

Oh man, where do I even start.  Splitting a mod largely considered to be vital to literally 90% of the community into three mods would mean that those three mods would then be considered vital by 90% of the community.  That's not customization.  

Vacuum isn't an ability which adds power to a warframe or otherwise makes the game easier, it is a quality of life ability which makes them game less annoying, more streamlined, and generally more enjoyable to play.  There is no reason to punish people for using this ability, and it should just be inherent to the game, as it is in many other games, especially due to the fact that the game is so fast-paced.  This isn't a plodding RPG or a tactical isometric game, this is a third person action shooter.  Walking directly on top of loot is annoying, and this isn't even delving into the issue of mods being stuck in walls or thrown off cliffs, you name it.  

It is literally a direct nerf to vacuum.  Literally.

Kubrows are terrible and everyone knows it.

DE makes fairly terrible decisions frequently and, due to a general lack of communication, we can safely assume that their reasons are just as bad as the decisions they make.  90% of the forums are complaining about this decision because it is an extremely terrible decision that rightfully pisses off everyone who chooses to use carrier currently, as it will literally triple the amount of mandatory mods on a sentinel.  There is no reason for this change to happen, especially when the vast majority of players have been asking for a universal vacuum for literally two years.  This decision is a very poor half-measure that is less of a universal vacuum and more of a universal nerf to any sentinel former vacuum users decide to use.  And it still leaves kubrows and kavats in the cold.  It's a garbage decision when there is a very simple solution to the problem that should have been implemented literally years ago.

A solution for players who don't want to use vacuum: literally an option you can turn off in the menu.  Duh.

Edit: syntax

Edited September 21, 2016 by timur_the_lame

[Azrael]

15 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

It nerfs nothing, it provides choice, and tradeoffs.

Carrier currently uses vacuum, and that takes one mod. After this change, using carrier with vacuum will take 3 mods. Players may choose whether to nerf vacuum or carrier. That exact same choice will be made for any other sentinal, except that they already have their own precepts to slot in. So putting vacuum (meaning a full vacuum) on shade will require removing 3 mods from it, or that player can nerf both vacuum and shade by using one or two. You might be tempted to call that okay, since currently vacuum isn't usable on shade at all. But since carrier will get the same treatment, it's easy to see that vacuum is definitely being nerfed. There will no longer be a sentinal that can slot vacuum without removing other mods.

So how on earth is this not a nerf?

[Azrael]

15 minutes ago, timur_the_lame said:

Kubrows are terrible and everyone knows it.

I love my Huras! Being able to put vacuum on him would be awesome. But of course they specified "sentinals," so I guess that's not gonna happen.

[Troll_Logic]

4 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

One, lose the salt. That's not how you make feedback.

God, I hate that saying.  No idea where it came from or why this board decided to run with it, but it's dumb.  I think my feedback was valid.

5 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

Two, that is a bad analogy. This is not three different weapons, this is the modding system.

No it isn't.  You said

3 hours ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

I must be one of few people rooting for this change. You claim it limits choice, but in fact, it's the opposit. It allows us to choose what things we vacuum up.

So you're happy one mod is being split into three because it increases choice.  DE limiting the weapons to one is the same because it increases choice.  BTW, that argument of "wasting ammo, energy, and so on" isn't valid either.  Yes, I know about if a player is down 1 round and he picks up 20.  Big deal.  He went from 99.5% ammo to 100% and there is still ammo, energy, and health all over the place.

31 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

It nerfs nothing

You've got a funny definition of nerf.  When I have to remove two additional mods from my carrier for the same functionality, I see that as a nerf.  When I have to remove three mods from other sentinels to add what used to be one, that's a nerf.  When I have to remove three mods from my kubrow or kavat to add what used to be one mod, that's nerf.  That's a BIG nerf.

34 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

And no, it isn't. It's called looking on the bright side. 

Nope.  You said you were rooting for this change.  That's not "looking on the bright side."  As for your examples

35 minutes ago, BulletsforTeeth said:

When you accidentally hit your foot with a hammer, or wipe out on the road, first aid or medical care can hurt like a *@##&#036;. But hey, it feels better after, and it heals right.

those are all accidents.  Nerfing vacuum by splitting it and then nerfing other companions would be 100% intentional.