Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[Eminem2420]

Just now, Tizodd said:

Dude...you're stretching...they are not the same.  I never called you strange.  Your thought process however, is strange to me.  I just don't understand how anyone would be upset with innate area looting.  Like I said...it seems like a total win-win to me.

I am not stretching anything. A personal attack is a personal attack no matter how you sugar coat it. I never said I was upset with people. I don't care, because sentinels are useless to me.

[Danjal777]

4 minutes ago, Eminem2420 said:

It is posts like these that get threads off topic, and people get defensive. Stop insulting other players because they disagree with you. I see no temper tantrum in here but yours. You have the right to state your opinion, but you don't have the right to insult people.

I really don't have any idea why people got upset with this post, was calling us as a community spoiled brats?  Because we are.  But that aside there was the rest of the post that no one has actually read, that states my perception on the problem.

[Tizodd]

Just now, Eminem2420 said:

I am not stretching anything. A personal attack is a personal attack no matter how you sugar coat it. I never said I was upset with people. I don't care, because sentinels are useless to me.

Okay I see you're trying to derail the Vacuum conversation for some reason.  If you genuinely felt I personally attacked you then I apologize.  It wasn't my intention.  I just find your thought process on the Vacuum issue odd.

[Eminem2420]

2 minutes ago, Danjal777 said:

I really don't have any idea why people got upset with this post, was calling us as a community spoiled brats?  Because we are.  But that aside there was the rest of the post that no one has actually read, that states my perception on the problem.

So we are all spoiled brats? Prove it. Show evidence that this is indeed the case. I know you will say "just look at this thread." I am looking at this thread, and I am seeing people stating their opinion and calmly disagreeing. This is not "whining" nor is it a problem. This thread has provoked discussion which is what DE needs. I saw your suggestion, and it is worthy to be looked at. It would solve the whole vacuum issue, i'm just not sure people will like that change.

[Danjal777]

17 minutes ago, Eminem2420 said:

These forums are driving me nuts today.  DE please give me a cancel response or throw out draft!

 

[Danjal777]

5 minutes ago, Eminem2420 said:

So we are all spoiled brats? Prove it. Show evidence that this is indeed the case. I know you will say "just look at this thread." I am looking at this thread, and I am seeing people stating their opinion and calmly disagreeing. This is not "whining" nor is it a problem. This thread has provoked discussion which is what DE needs. I saw your suggestion, and it is worthy to be looked at. It would solve the whole vacuum issue, i'm just not sure people will like that change.

People will be upset no matter the direction the devs take.  Give us innate vacuum, People are mad because they pick up ammo and health they didnt want.  Make it a mod, people are mad because because it takes up too much space in their load out.  Get rid of items dropping out of enemies, people will get mad because they liked the way it felt to pick things up.  They know there will be salt, and we play the game with whatever we have in the end anyway.

[NovusNova]

Rebecca has posted a Developer Workshop post about Universal Vacuum.

It can be found here: 

 

[Demon.King]

On 17/09/2016 at 0:08 PM, Demon.King said:

If vacuum has to remain a mod, and people want customisation, I just thought, how about we make precept mod ranks actually count for something for once and make each level add a drop type to collect, rather than range.

That is:

R0 - Credits/Resources

R1 - Mods/Endo

R2 - Miscellaneous

R3 - Ammo

R4 - Health

R5 - Energy

 

Note that each level is additive, not exclusive. At R5 you would basically have the current R5 Vacuum.

Near full customisation (even more than the proposed system anyway), 0 drawbacks compared to current. Win Win?

For people that want customisation, unless they make it innate universal.

[Brasten]

42 minutes ago, Danjal777 said:

People will be upset no matter the direction the devs take.  Give us innate vacuum, People are mad because they pick up ammo and health they didnt want.  Make it a mod, people are mad because because it takes up too much space in their load out.  Get rid of items dropping out of enemies, people will get mad because they liked the way it felt to pick things up.  They know there will be salt, and we play the game with whatever we have in the end anyway.

Well 89% of the player base by MR10 have said that they are willing to have it as a SINGLE mod on COMPANIONS. That's a known, working, and accepted solution to most of the various issues with the Loot Drop system (stuff in walls, pits, lag delay, etc), and just the QoL of not having to go stand on every tiny circle of Salvage. So the simple fix is to just make Vacuum a universal companion mod.

Of course that just means that 89% of players will just have it equipped on every companion. At that point it may as well become a Toggle setting in the Options menu for Radial or Walk-Over item pickup.

The issue over using things like Health or Ammo is solvable with good programming.

If the player has less health/energy/ammo than the maximum minus the value of the pick up, then pull it in and pick it up. 
Example: Current Energy 90, Max Energy 125, Energy Orb +25, Pull/Pick-up
Example: Current Rifle 530, Max Rifle 540, Ammo Pack +20, DO NOT pull/pick-up

IF ('current health,energy,rifle,shotgun,sniper,secondary'  < 'max health,energy,rifle,shotgun,sniper,secondary' - 'value of pick up')
	Pull to Player
    	Pick Up
   

Run against all incoming loot. This is already done by Vaccum but is only checked against Max values. Overfilling could then require walking over the items. There can even be a change in how the Vaccum effect pulls in consumables (not resources/mods/endo), so it doesn't pull everything all at once and only what's needed as outlined above. There is no reason why a universal vacuum effect can't be more selective about what it pulls in and how it is used.

 

--> Can't make that point enough, 89% of the player base. You do not get usage numbers like that unless something is desperately wrong with some aspect of the system(s) involved.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Brasten

[(XBOX)Gamehowitzer]

Ok, I noticed this just recently after DE started talking about changing vacuum. While vacuum is a great mod, and that is a reason most players choose to use carrier, there is another reason you have overlooked DE. Stats. Carrier prime has the best stats out of any sentinel. At rank 30 it has a base 400 health, and 150 armor. while this might not seem much at first, when you put  the corresponding mods on, at max rank, Carrier gets 1280 health, and  315 armor. This is a crazy amount higher than any other sentinel, making carrier prime the toughest sentinel. Ill highlight the stats of all sentinels at rank 30 below.

Carrier P: 

Sheild:100

HP:400

Armor:150

 

Wyrm P:

Sheild:300

HP:100

Armor:150

 

Diriga:

Sheild:50

HP:350

Armor:50

 

Prisma shade:

Sheild:100

HP:350

Armor:75

 

Helios:

Sheild:100

HP:200

Armor:50

 

Djinn:

Sheild:100

HP:200

Armor:50

 

Dethcube:

Sheild:100

HP:200

Armor:50

As you see Carrier prime has the highest survivability because it has the highest base armor and the highest base health out of every other sentinel. While wyrm prime may have the highest shields, it won't last nearly as long as the carrier as it has a pitiful 100 base health. So in order to address the problem that you are trying to address by changing vacuum, you have to tweak ALL of the sentinels stats. Since carrier prime is the best sentinel in high level play, everyone will use it. I highly suggest you revisit ALL of the sentinels. Now personally i like the idea of adding a Seperate mod slot just for vacuum to every sentinel. But by doing that you're ignoring the other problem that every other sentinel struggles with. Bad stats. I'm certainly not saying "OH carrier OP please nerf" because the sad truth is every other sentinel is under-powered. Well, maybe not helios or prisma shade. But still every sentinel beside carrier has little to no armor.

Thanks for pointing out i missed dethcube and djinn guys.

Edited September 20, 2016 by (XB1)Gamehowitzer

[TaylorsContraction]

9 minutes ago, Demon.King said:

On 9/17/2016 at 6:08 AM, Demon.King said:

If vacuum has to remain a mod, and people want customisation, I just thought, how about we make precept mod ranks actually count for something for once and make each level add a drop type to collect, rather than range.

That is:

R0 - Credits/Resources

R1 - Mods/Endo

R2 - Miscellaneous

R3 - Ammo

R4 - Health

R5 - Energy

 

Note that each level is additive, not exclusive. At R5 you would basically have the current R5 Vacuum.

Near full customisation (even more than the proposed system anyway), 0 drawbacks compared to current. Win Win?

This sounds like a REALLY good way to go. It will appease people that don't want to have vacuum pick up R3/4/5 <3.

[TheScytale]

It will still be the toughest, but it won't remain useful in any given situation anymore. After the rework, it'll be next to useless in a melee-only run, compared to Djinn or some other CC sentinel.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a buff to the other sentinels.

[(XBOX)Gamehowitzer]

That's exactly what i'm trying to say. Give some love to the other sentinels. :)

[Xekrin]

Considering Djinn is supposed to be the "Tank" of sentinels, it should really be mentioned here.  It only has 200 base health and has the only precept that intentionally aggros enemies.  It should be the highest in health.  I don't know if Djinn could technically ever be primed or prisma'd (the only sent variants so far) but if they are waiting on that, they shouldn't.  

Djinn needs to have highest health or at least armor even over a Prime variant like Carrier, period.  The fact that it doesn't is quite sad.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Xekrin

[steelblueskies]

belongs in the megathread on vacuum really.

 

you are right because of simple damage attrition, on longer runs simple ticks from venemous eximus auras over time will kill all sentinels, and instances with mutalist osprey gas clouds do it faster.

 

while durability is one element its not the only one.

 

other reasons for carrier.

(vacuum as noted)

unreliability of other sentinels special precepts to work as needed even in highest priority slot.

precept usefulness for other sentinels.

 

two special mods from simaris are for helios and carrier only.

any new player looking into companions in the wiki will find sentinels, then discover carriers gun does massively more than their mk- starter stuff, making it desirable as a damage source based on numbers presentation.

 

no upkeep cost as per kubrows/kavats.

no rng on type and appearance as per kubrows/kavats.

the old word of mouth, people say they're working on howl of the kubrow and get told to wait because of cost, inevitably ask what pet they should get then, and get told "carrier".

 

people like big numbers, vacuum ensures they are bigger at mission end.

 

it all adds up especially in an environment where a new person may only have slots for one sentinel and weapon for it, generating severe change resistance, and a sense of being burned if one does change.

 

so yeah they focused on vacuum, but to really make people move more varied ways from carrier they actually need to do some work in a LOT of other areas to make other options more viable.

they need more specific mods for simaris to balance it out.

need to revisit damage values on other sentinels weapons.

work on sentinel ai for when to activate their special precepts.

eliminate the bloody upkeep cost on kubs/kavats. maybe tie it to unrevived pet deaths not per diem existence, the same way damage is currently done.

and look at sentinel durability to shield bypassing tick damage from things like toxin auras and gas clouds.

[Eredoc]

Survivability is hardly the point to sentinels, You should be using a sentinel based on what Utility you want because Sentinels aren't attacked directly unless you use Djinn [that can be stopped by taking out the precept]  or you go down and chances are if it gets shot, it's dead.

Personally I prefer Wyrm [Crowd Knock Down] and Shade but I use Carrier because of laziness and I think most people are in the same boat, Prefer one but use Carrier.

That being said, a little bit of care for the others wouldn't hurt, Also Consider renaming the thread, it is a bit misleading.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Eredoc

[arolust]

Yea, I agree with Eredoc, stats on a sent are nice and all, but really not the point, its the utility of a particular sent. that makes people pick it, I havent heard of anyone picking one over another due to atk or defense for a looooooooooooooong time, i mean that was only something I was concerned about around MR1-5 or so. 

Iv always used carrier from the moment I built it, all for vacuum, havent touched the prime version, just no reason to care because all that really matters is the vacuum.

[RenownedWheat42]

5 minutes ago, Eredoc said:

Sentinels aren't attacked directly unless you use Djinn [that can be stopped by taking out the precept]

A bit of a tangent, but don't you think that's an issue? The point of Djinn is to aggro, which it can't survive after it's done. To remove the precept, you're better off using any other Sentinel.

More on topic, survivability is DEFINITELY a concern when bringing sentinels. You don't want to bring something that will die within the first five minutes completely by accident - no, you want something that will a) survive, and b) deal damage. Carrier does both of those, along with the vacuum precept.

Now that vacuum is being made universal - personal thoughts on that aside - Carrier is now still the tankiest and best DPS sentinel to bring along.

All that said, Wyrm Prime is my favorite Sentinel, and I spend most of my days with my Smeeta recently, anyway.

[taiiat]

32 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Considering Djinn is supposed to be the "Tank" of sentinels, it should really be mentioned here.  It only has 200 base health and has the only precept that intentionally aggros enemies.  It should be the highest in health.

Djinn needs to have highest health or at least armor even over a Prime variant like Carrier, period.  The fact that it doesn't is quite sad.

since the Enemies Djinn attracts... have their attacks disabled, that's really not true.

[-CM-Hekovashi]

Sentinel survivability matters, duh. Skill set are nice but they ain't matter if flying things that use them is dead. Both matters-tankines and usability and so happens that carrier p have both of them, no wonder that it's the most popular companion, the true lord ans savior.

De haven't touch sentines....like ever, but they really should and it didn't even take that long to tweak up their stats a bit, but i guess they have other stuff to do (not really).

Companions are essential in warframe, they make life alot easier, even most crappy ones, you should always get one with you. And it doesn't seems like De realising this, since It took years for them to understand that vaccum should be for everyone, and even after realising they did it all wrong-by still keeping it as mod and even split it in 3 parts...da hek man...da hek.

[XIceBladeX]

haha... why did you compare Prime/Prisma to default Sentinels??? I'm not sure if you did this to make your point sound stronger, or if you just weren't thinking...

Djinn, Carrier, Helios, Wyrm, and Deathcube are all 200|100|50 Health|Shields|Armor.

The only exceptions are Diriga and Shade, which have 350|50|50 Health|Shields|Armor.

ALL sentinels have 100 Power.

There is no value in comparing the Prisma/Prime Sentinels to the Sentinels currently lacking a Prime/Prisma variant based on the assumption that they will never receive one. That's just silly. 

[IRVoidGuru]

carrier is used due to 1 mod. vacuum, and after the vacuum change we will see others used. it has very little to do with these stats and more to do with 1 mod

[IRVoidGuru]

i Really think we need to talk about what this means for Life support drops. what one of these 3 vacuum mods will work for this one drop type and if it is restricted to only 1 mod, then What is DE's Comments about locking instant pick up of this Vital Drop type to a single one of these 3 mods.

do you find this method of splitting this one mod into 3 to be a method of limitation or are you interested in what drop types players care about more?

do you find this Nessasary drop type as something that should be Restricted to be collected by running to each instance of the drop?

as a player who plays this game mainly for the Game type Survival, the Life support drop and what one of these mods it will be obtainable by is nessasary information for me.

will the Vacuum mods be equiptable only 1 at a time or is it something that we can use all 3 at once ?

What are the mod Cost and Polarities of these new 3 vacuum mods?

[Leonix13]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)IrSchm33 said:

i Really think we need to talk about what this means for Life support drops. what one of these 3 vacuum mods will work for this one drop type and if it is restricted to only 1 mod, then What is DE's Comments about locking instant pick up of this Vital Drop type to a single one of these 3 mods.

do you find this method of splitting this one mod into 3 to be a method of limitation or are you interested in what drop types players care about more?

do you find this Nessasary drop type as something that should be Restricted to be collected by running to each instance of the drop?

as a player who plays this game mainly for the Game type Survival, the Life support drop and what one of these mods it will be obtainable by is nessasary information for me.

will the Vacuum mods be equiptable only 1 at a time or is it something that we can use all 3 at once ?

What are the mod Cost and Polarities of these new 3 vacuum mods?

Life support drops show up in your hud just like void orbs, get off your tail and get it. 

[IRVoidGuru]

14 minutes ago, Leonix13 said:

Life support drops show up in your hud just like void orbs, get off your tail and get it. 

you try paying attention to your drops and running to them when 1h in a mot survival getting shot down. lets not pretend that having life support vacuum isnt basicly nessisary in end game runs and get back to the point i asked about