Hydroid is bad, here's a thought out rework

[-Amaterasu-]

Just now, RikerWatts said:

NO weapon stance or weapon in general should have to justify the viability of that passive working well enough to be worth it.

I never said it did I just said it happens to work really well with that combo, there are plenty of stances that throw slams into the combos for easy use of it, there are plenty of frames with far worse passives than Hydroid.

[RikerWatts]

18 minutes ago, -Amaterasu- said:

I never said it did I just said it happens to work really well with that combo, there are plenty of stances that throw slams into the combos for easy use of it, there are plenty of frames with far worse passives than Hydroid.

Right, there are, already stated oberon's. But just the factor that his passive is only effective on drop attacks and two stances enact a drop attack of some sort is flimsy. It might be amusing to witness a ton of single tentacles in a line, but that just emphasizes my point more of him being a joke. Only effective in precise coordination and not in the basic warframe hackandslash runandgun space-ninja style.
But let's look at some passives.

IVARA'S PASSIVE
-senses nearby enemies.
It's not completely useful but it does SUIT ivara's subterfuge infiltrator style

LIMBO'S PASSIVE
-increased movement reload and holster speed while inside the rift
This emphasizes his rift walk and cataclysm more but seems to be obsolete in a way.

LOKI
-able to hang from walls for an extended time
Not many people wall latch, but I dunno, it seems kinda useful in certain situations.

Oberon
-nearby wildlife fight alongside oberon
But why. This can messed up exterminate missions randomly.

Zephyr
-move with increased mobility while airborne and fall slower
This one has just screwed me up numerous times because of the lowgrav style it has rising and lowering.
 

Edited September 23, 2016 by RikerWatts
DE doesn't like swear words

[Rakosta_Kai]

I actually like Hydroid's passive... It has a decent chance to proc and the proc is actually useful. I mostly use redeemer though so YMMV.

As to the rest of the stuff in this post:

Solid grasp on the issues with the existing skills but I am not a fan of the re-work ideas.

 

Hydroid is an inside-out and clunky frame with skills that seem range-oriented but are actually mid to short range effective.

That, in and of itself, wouldn't be so bad if his base stats complemented his abilities' competencies.

...But they don't.

Hydroid has caster stats (without the caster energy pool) in place to complement a mid-melee range CC ability set.

Yes, he's definitely one of the more effective campers/ trap frames in the game—He just sucks at about everything else.

I don't see how this can be changed either...

 Tentacles and Undertow are iconic to him and are likely the reason why he is balanced the way he is now imo. Leaving him with those tools and giving him relevant ranged defense or beefier stats both set him up to be OP long term as long as he has those skills.

And getting rid of those skills risks backlash from the loyal fans that play him now.

...Hydroid is a conundrum. 

Maybe give Undertow the Ivara treatment and allow the skill to optionally do multiple things while making Tentacle basically be a pet with taunt that can draw aggro. Give it a life bar life bar of it's own (or have tenatcles heal Hydroid based on life taken).

...That still leaves us with a ranged ability that's only reliable at short range or on certain maps and a movement skill that has cast and animation lock delays without the protections you'd expect from such an ability... Not to mention that it's prone to either miss or not reliably affect targets.    

[CrimsonDalekanium]

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Right while some of these bear weight, the problem comes along with having to sit on meta weapons to hold your own. Nekro's synergy comes along with his kit. Both 1 and 2 are breathing room all on their own. Push an enemy back? 1! CC a group of enemies by telling them to go away? 2! his 3 is obviously the farm aspect and also can be used to get some health orbs, pretty good stuff, more rewards for mass murder! His 4 accommodates his flexibility with dead enemies and the aura of "fear" with a necromancer type frame. He looks the part, his abilities work the part. All of it is meant to make him survive and breathe again.

I've attempted to use pilfering swarm but I only get extra drops when an enemy DIES to my tentacles. I wouldn't know why it's different for me, but then again, I've seen some bugs. 
AS FOR THE ARGUMENT ABOUT "if something seems terrible in warframe you're using it wrong"
Glaxion, Panthera, Miter, Dual Kohmak, Kohmak, Ankyros Prime, (seriously it doesn't attack fast enough to justify a low damage, even with crit!) Buzlok, Synapse. Tell me how I am using these wrong. 'cause I've tried so hard to make these work in some way and they don't provide.

How many of the listed weapons have you catalysted and forma'd so you can have 4 elementals, a basic damage mod, a punch-through/firerate mod, and multichamber mods? Because I feel pretty safe guaranteeing being able to take out any starmap enemy with a Hydroid, a Buzlok, 4 elementals, Split Chamber, shred, serration, and an ammo muta. No, you won't be cheesing sorties or trials, but you won't be hitting them with a wiffle bat either. Or with a Hydroid, Kohmak, 4 elementals, Lethal torrent, barrel diffusion, hornet strike, and p pistol muta.

The only weapons  I will openly admit suck are the machetes as a group, Nukor, and Sicarus/prime.

How long ago was this pilfering swarm usage?

Oh, so instead of using meta weapons, you want us to use meta warframes! My bad, I hadn't realized!

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

1 minute ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

The only weapons  I will openly admit suck are the machetes as a group, Nukor [...]

Arcane Avenger set, Kavats' Charm or Cat's Eye precept...

[RikerWatts]

44 minutes ago, CrimsonDalekanium said:

How many of the listed weapons have you catalysted and forma'd so you can have 4 elementals, a basic damage mod, a punch-through/firerate mod, and multichamber mods? Because I feel pretty safe guaranteeing being able to take out any starmap enemy with a Hydroid, a Buzlok, 4 elementals, Split Chamber, shred, serration, and an ammo muta. No, you won't be cheesing sorties or trials, but you won't be hitting them with a wiffle bat either. Or with a Hydroid, Kohmak, 4 elementals, Lethal torrent, barrel diffusion, hornet strike, and p pistol muta.

The only weapons  I will openly admit suck are the machetes as a group, Nukor, and Sicarus/prime.

How long ago was this pilfering swarm usage?

Oh, so instead of using meta weapons, you want us to use meta warframes! My bad, I hadn't realized!

That's a rather bold statement to make. "Meta warframes" My most used is trinity prime at 28% I swap off frames often going from any frame I feel like playing. Ash, Equinox, Atlas, Ember, Banshee in an exterminate, whatever the hell I feel like at the time and every time I come back around to hydroid with some alterations, it doesn't feel impactful enough to justify what he's supposed to be. The only thing that fits his theme is his ult, he acts like a caster but is so up close with low survivability it makes no sense to have him set up that way.

As for the catalys'd and formas (I rarely bother formaing at the moment as I need to stockpile them): Ankyros Prime, Buzlok, Glaxion, and Dual Khomak. I haven't experimented a ton with them, but with basic split chamber serrations and so on, they don't give as much umph as say Karak or burston, phage or convectrix, Akmagnus or Hikou, scindo or ceramic dagger.  Generally just other weapons feel as if they have better impact on enemies overall.

80 days old pilfering swarm usage in the last 12.
Going through the game with buzlok khomak and hydroid or whatever is possible, anything is basically in this game, yet with those weapons when using them they felt kinda S#&$ty, and with hydroid, I can see where he can be useful, but it's just not enough to support the current playstyle of the game with it being so fast paced and "melt asap" kits or "CC like everything in a half mile radius.

[chofranc]

Hydroid is good if you find the perfect build which is negative range+full duration+some efficiency and strength, his main job is to lockdown some areas and for farming of course. 

Spoiler

20 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Go ahead and tell me what you think. Hydroid is bad, he's not a compliment to any other frame, several other frames do his job better, an augment should not justify some decency as augments either alter the way a frame's ability works or improves upon it. None of hydroid's augments justify it's existence with Oberon and Trinity being around, or Nezha's new augment, OR Vauban and Nekros! I want to like hydroid, it's just he's not that great.

 

So you are telling that if the warframe doesn't do sinergy with other warframes is trash? Their augment are justify if you aren't a dependant "player" or if in the squad there is no one of other warframes that can do that and even if there is one as i say, hydroid is another CC warframe and in fact does synergy with nekros and ivara and atlas and does synergy with other hydroids and other warframes too.

Now talking about the changes that you propose:

Tempest barrage as is now is good but need some little tweaks, with negative range hydroid it turns into a killing machine btw since you can create more than 1 instance and stunlock the enemies because every projectile has an AoE of like 1-2 meter where they land and can destroy nullifier bubbles too, since actually you can stunlock enemies, the 1 that you propose sounds irrelevant and more like a nerf, what this skill needs is more duration and a smart tracking of the target in the AoE so the projectiles hit the enemies instead of random spot.

Tidal surge is more a mobility skill more than anything but i think too that should be more something else, what you propose sounds good to me.

The undertow suggestion that you propose sounds good, creating a trap instead of turning you in the actual puddle, i liked it, but the only problem is that if you can create more than 1 instance of it, and if is last to much and doesn't do enough damage to kill the enemies fast it could make a mission worst or slower, imagine a high lvl mission or a high lvl sup where you need to kill fast so enemies keep spawning, combining it with the tentacles doesn't work to well since you can cast only 1 instance of the tentacles, although combining his abilities to deal more damage is a good idea .

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by chofranc

[RikerWatts]

9 minutes ago, chofranc said:

can create more than 1 instance of it, and if is last to much and doesn't do enough damage to kill the enemies

Tentacle swarm prioritizes enemies in placed puddle traps, that thrust of them coming out is 60% max hp damage at highest rank in and of itself. Pretty solid, and you could run out of energy from enemies being in it just like your own undertow.

 

[CrimsonDalekanium]

2 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

That's a rather bold statement to make. "Meta warframes" My most used is trinity prime at 28% I swap off frames often going from any frame I feel like playing. Ash, Equinox, Atlas, Ember, Banshee in an exterminate, whatever the hell I feel like at the time and every time I come back around to hydroid with some alterations, it doesn't feel impactful enough to justify what he's supposed to be. The only thing that fits his theme is his ult, he acts like a caster but is so up close with low survivability it makes no sense to have him set up that way.

As for the catalys'd and formas (I rarely bother formaing at the moment as I need to stockpile them): Ankyros Prime, Buzlok, Glaxion, and Dual Khomak. I haven't experimented a ton with them, but with basic split chamber serrations and so on, they don't give as much umph as say Karak or burston, phage or convectrix, Akmagnus or Hikou, scindo or ceramic dagger.  Generally just other weapons feel as if they have better impact on enemies overall.

80 days old pilfering swarm usage in the last 12.
Going through the game with buzlok khomak and hydroid or whatever is possible, anything is basically in this game, yet with those weapons when using them they felt kinda S#&$ty, and with hydroid, I can see where he can be useful, but it's just not enough to support the current playstyle of the game with it being so fast paced and "melt asap" kits or "CC like everything in a half mile radius.

I completely agree that there's isn't a point beyond a desire for variety or fun to turning one of the more awkward weapons into a customized instrument of destruction. But it can be done, merely to the degree of usefulness, not to the degree of "everything in sight will die with one button press" you can do with one of the more "meta" weapons. 

I'd also agree that Hydroid isn't perfect (there are only one or two frames I feel need NO more tweaks, like Frost) or even the best at most of the common roles in a squad, but he isn't the walking pile of garbage some people make him out to be.

[Chipputer]

19 hours ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

probably because it's late and your post has only been up for a half hour, most rework ideas with some actual effort put in, gets comments (with time).  Title is also not the best, Hydroid is bad/rework idea might get more attention

You forgot the all caps, bolded, "I'm angry and yelling really loud," portions. It makes it sound like a whining child is talking to me about how their favorite toy isn't quite what they expected.

Sure, what they're saying might hold some merit, but I'm not going to sit through that tantrum to find that out.

[Azamagon]

Imo, Hydroid is not THAT bad, but he is most certainly UNRELIABLE.

Tempest Barrage
As it is right now, it's not very useful. Especially considering Tentacle Swarm being recastable as well. Only thing it has going for it is the stackability, but it doesn't last very long, so what's the point?

Tidal Surge
I think this ability is cool, and the brief invulnerability is immensly useful, but it has so much more potential than that. It's also overly costly for what it is.

Undertow
I honestly kind of like this skill, for the potential it has even more so. It gives breathing room and a way for him to really pause, with his augment emphasizing this even more. Also useful to quickly cast and uncast to trigger knockdowns for ez ground finishers.
However, its damage is pitiful, not to mention the trollability it has.

Tentacle Swarm
I like the idea, but not the execution. Also, both TS and TB are ranged AoE denial skills. Redundancy much?
Its augment, while useful, promotes meta-gaming. Which is boring as can be.

Passive
Unfitting. Yes, he has some minor melee-emphasis, especially with ground finishers, but not with slam-attacks.

Stats
He doesn't really have enough of the stats he could need: If he is supposed to be relatively melee-esque, he has not got enough base survivability for that. If he is supposed to be a CC-caster, he has a bit poor of an energypool. If a hybrid, he got the short end of the stick, on both ends.

 

My suggestions:

Tempest Barrage
I think either TB or TS could need a complete rehaul (considering their similar nature), but keeping things as they are and improving them are more likely to get implemented, so I'd suggest this:
1) Onehanded cast
2) Individual explosions ALSO increase with Power Range (not just their landing radius)
3) The first explosion occurs across the ENTIRE landing radius, giving it a guaranteed minimal effect
4) To make its purpose different from Tentacle Swarm: Lower its basedamage, but give it damage scaling from your Primary weapon or something?

Tidal Surge
Just needs small tweaking
1) 25 energycost (or max 35)
2) Wider hitbox and graphical wave, by a noticeable margin (twice as wide?)
3) Collects and drags all enemies in its path in a ragdoll fashion, releasing them only when he lands
4) Can be ended early by pressing melee

Undertow
I'd like some emphasis on this to be a worthwhile ability, rather than simply remove it.
1) The longer an enemy is inside Undertow, the more damage it takes. This both improves its damage and helps reduces trolling
2) After enemies are released, for a brief duration afterwards they are also slowed down and suffer some more of Undertow's current built up damage.
3) Your other abilities can be cast while you are in Undertow:
* Tempest Barrage - Casts it centralized on the pool. All enemies in the pool suffer damage if a barrage bubble hits anywhere on the pool.
* Tidal Surge - Cancels Undertow and instantly casts Tidal Surge to relocate yourself (and possibly relocates the enemies from Undertow that might get caught by the Tidal Surge), then goes back to Undertow instantly again.
* Tentacle Swarm - Summons tentacles outside the pool's perimeters (functions like a cast centralized on the Undertow, but no tentacles will spawn on the actual pool, because that'd be highly redundant. Only exception would be, for example, if there is an Osprey above the pool, then a tentacle might spawn there). All enemies who are caught by tentacles (wether the tentacles were summoned during Undertow or not, doesn't matter) can be thrown into the Undertow pool.by Hydroid pressing the action-key (x). The tentacles have to be within line of sight and not all too far from the pool for them to be able to toss them in though.

Tentacle Swarm
Let's make it reliable:
1) No longer randomly smashes about, instead the tentacles wait in place, only reaching out in a fast swiping manner and grabs the first enemy it touches, when the enemy gets close enough to be in its grabbing range. The hitbox to grab an enemy should be BIG, to ensure that it manages to catch smaller enemies too (like Ospreys and such).
2) When a tentacle grabs an enemy, it whirls around it, holds it quite steady in place and drowns+crushes it (like an anaconda, but made of water and thus also able to drown its victim at the same time... evil), no longer disrupting you or your allies' aim. One tentacle can only hold one enemy at a time. If an enemy dies by a tentacle, the tentacle quickly throws the enemy towards a random nearby enemy (the corpse landing deals impact damage and knocks down the enemy it might hit) and grabs a new enemy that is/comes within its grabbing reach.
3) Power Range, on top of increasing the tentacle spawn area, also increases the number of tentacles spawned.

Passive
Would prefer something entirely different, but for now I'd just suggest: Maybe make them spawn upon doing groundfinishers too?

Stats
I'd go with the "melee caster" hybrid style:
Energy: Buff up from 100 to 125
Arrmor: Buff up from 65 to max 150
Should be enough to help him I think.

There you go. Some example of synergy that could happen:
Undertow to make a safespot. Tidal Surge to move safely around, if needed. Tentacle Swarm to grab enemies, then toss them in. Throw a Tempest Barrage on them to finish them all, with its newly improved damage scaling.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Azamagon

[CerebrateJoe]

Heya Riker, let me start by saying how much I enjoyed this.  Its very well said and thought went into it.  I love reading reviews that want to improve Warframe.

I think the criticism of his abilities is fair.  I don't think they're bad, but they're not good.  You're insights as to their shortcomings is spot-on, though.

Agreed on his passive.  I have no idea how this ties into his play-style.  I would definitely like to see it replaced.

As for your rework of him, the first thing I want to point out is that in past reworks, DE very rarely removes or replaces an ability.  A complete rebuild is unheard of, and I think your legitimate views would be better spent on explaining how to improve the existing abilities, rather than replacing them.  I think DE only considers the former, not the latter.

As an example of a rework I think DE would be more receptive of, howabout this?

Tidal Surge + Undertow Merger:  Howabout making it a toggle.  While standing still, it is Undertow, and while moving it is tidal surge.  It would be hella fun to be a puddle that runs around and messes people up.  How much fun would you have being sentient water with a grudge?

Oh, and for a passive, howabout being able to cast his abilities while in puddle form.  That would be a nice advantage.

Edited September 24, 2016 by CerebrateJoe
Spelling and passive idea

[RikerWatts]

3 hours ago, Chipputer said:

You forgot the all caps, bolded, "I'm angry and yelling really loud," portions. It makes it sound like a whining child is talking to me about how their favorite toy isn't quite what they expected.

Sure, what they're saying might hold some merit, but I'm not going to sit through that tantrum to find that out.

That's VERY ignorant of you as the post bears satirical fluff that both lightens the issues and provides something a little lighter mood through it. It's not me whining about Hydroid being hot garbage and "I want him to suit MY playstyle". The rework does NOT suit a rusher but fits a trapper much along the lines of Vauban.

 

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Imo, Hydroid is not THAT bad, but he is most certainly UNRELIABLE.

Your alterations make sense for ease of implementation, and could also fix the glaring issues that he has with his kit. I can see these easily working out to bolster hydroid, especially that undertow buff. Mine is just a rework to emphasize the trapper aspect where yours is a solid fix to his unreliability and unpredictability.
This is something I enjoy seeing.

 

3 hours ago, CerebrateJoe said:

As for your rework of him, the first thing I want to point out is that in past reworks, DE very rarely removes or replaces an ability.  A complete rebuild is unheard of, and I think your legitimate views would be better spent on explaining how to improve the existing abilities, rather than replacing them.  I think DE only considers the former, not the latter.

Which might be sad to see, but the only ability replaced in this mix is Tempest barrage which I don't think would be missed, the other two are the same kind-of ability with caster based differences. Instead of removing hydroid to nullify X targets, hydroid places down these traps to do it for him. The placement of the trap costs a little energy, then an enemy gets towed under and it ticks your energy away to hold them there until they die or get bursted out by tentacle swarm.
The change I made to tidal surge just would allow hydroid to not force himself to move in order to knock targets down, or aim at teammates effected by a status to augment cleanse them. Makes more sense as who would off the bat notice a status augment on someone and try their damnedest to charge into someone?

[Matt89Connor]

i need another power to increase his defend, i suggest a water cannons power instead of the first ability, and a tweak of the passive and 2 ability

[Azamagon]

7 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

Your alterations make sense for ease of implementation, and could also fix the glaring issues that he has with his kit. I can see these easily working out to bolster hydroid, especially that undertow buff. Mine is just a rework to emphasize the trapper aspect where yours is a solid fix to his unreliability and unpredictability.
This is something I enjoy seeing.

Thanks! :)

I mean, while I certainly enjoyed reading your rework, I neither completely agree with him being utter garbage (when he works, he works well... but that is WHEN he works), nor do I think a radical rework is necessary (nor likely to happen, as @CerebrateJoe already pointed out).

[Mak_Gohae]

he has 4 CC powers and you are complaining that each one isn't a perfect CC? Come on.  You are supposed to use all your powers in combination.

[kristophy]

On 9/22/2016 at 9:43 PM, RikerWatts said:

Hi I'm Riker. I'm pretty new. 80 days old and I just recently hit rank 19. I'm attempting to make a video on hydroid BUT I'M INSANELY FRUSTRATED AT THE INABILITY TO CREATE CINEMATIC SHOTS BECAUSE REMOTE OBSERVER IS FRAME-LOCKED AND NOT CONTROLLABLE OR RAILROADABLE.
In any case, I have come up with a rather invalid hydroid rework, but before I get to that point, let's review my opinion. 

TEMPEST BARRAGE
cheap cc 

TIDAL SURGE

use this to out run every one!! mix the animation with Tentacle swarm and wala

UNDERTOW

 use this to debuff your self/ heal team mates.
 

TENTACLE SWARM

is my primary ability why because i keep the entire team feed up on energy and loot?

THE PASSIVE.

Nothing in his kit justifies a slam attack being a necessity to proc this. Nothing propels him up and he doesn't have built in melee like Wukong

FARMING!!! end game farming any way.

Go ahead and tell me what you think.  Hydroid is really good, he's complements any farming misson. all other frames do his job worse, an augment should not justify some decency as augments either alter the way a frame's ability works or improves upon it. None of hydroid's augments justify it's existence XD he is the best way to farm. yes if DE made resources and every thing else in this game make sense, i might agree but hydroid is the one frame that keeps a veteran playing. so yes he is hard to get. yes he dose not make sense for people not used to building frame. (he is the only way to get vuban prime) / my insainly good build with this frame which is almost my main- needs zenruki that is the only hint ill drop you.


 

 

[Dogefighter]

Fun fact:  A few friends and I did some math, and using an almost max duration hydroid (hovering around 235%, just need to max the mods), we found he could go about 68 meters in about .6 seconds using Tidal Surge.

That's about 254 miles per hour.

I've no idea why he goes that fast, but man is it fun.

[RikerWatts]

20 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

he has 4 CC powers and you are complaining that each one isn't a perfect CC? Come on.  You are supposed to use all your powers in combination.

His powers have no real synergy. HIs CCs are inefficient as F*** to any friendly frame that doesn't have a giant AOE much like Nova or Ember. You can't shoot at nil targets and it's unnecessary to have to shoot at targets flailing on a tentacle.


@kristophy nice meme, it's too bad that he's a complimentary farmer with not outstanding attributes that provide as much as every other frame, and the basis- if you took the time to look and not look like a moron- is based on his BASE abilities. The rework I had in mind KEEPS pilfering swarm (should be called plundering swarm let's be real) and edits his kit to compliment everything about his caster niche. Tempest barrage is insanely unreliable CC let alone a source of any offensive nor defensive ability, undertow is only relevant with an augment but made obsolete by a @(*()$ oberon and especially trinity. and the fact that you're justifying it by saying it's augment makes it good shows poor design.
Take all of hydroid's augments out of the question, does the ability stand well enough on it's own.
If a frame NEEDS an augment in it's ability to perform better, it's not a good ability.

Pilfering swarm is good, it competes against nekros being the only farm frame, but it's NOT a justification for it's viability. Tentacle swarm hits and latches one target and just flails around MAYBE hitting another.
His passive is still hot garbage, undertow is still an AFK tool, tempest barrage is worse with a positive stat, tidal surge can be outdone by controlled mobility via Zephyr, teleportation by Nova, and Rhino who does a better job at being a crashing wave of pain.
 

 

2 hours ago, Dogefighter said:

go about 68 meters in about .6 seconds using Tidal Surge.

That's about 254 miles per hour.

That sounds fun, but I also want to turn on the tiles I'm in.

[Mak_Gohae]

17 hours ago, RikerWatts said:

His powers have no real synergy.

what synergy do you need for knocking people down in a small area, knocking people down in a straight line, knocking people down around you, knock people down in a larger circular area? It just knocking people down in different ways.

Quote

HIs CCs are inefficient as F*** to any friendly frame that doesn't have a giant AOE much like Nova or Ember

How? How is people being knocked down not useful?

Quote

. You can't shoot at nil targets and it's unnecessary to have to shoot at targets flailing on a tentacle.

whats a "nil target"?

And why is it unnecessary? It's a CC power mainly. Plus there are 4th that even with damage do not kill and you have to finis enemies.

[Nr.17]

FIRST ABILITY: HARSH WEATHER
Ever been out on a boat and look across the sea to see wonderful weather but then all of a sudden WOOOSH IT'S A STORM! THUNDER AND LIGHTNING! BOOM CRACK! No? Ok well this ability is meant to be a placeable trap that looks like a raincloud, rains down harmful inclement to people below it, slowing them by 3/6/9/12/15% and doing 40/80/120/160/200 damage per second, along with disabling the weapons of people who walk through it. You can't fire weapons when they're chugged in water, silly! But when they get out of that storm, they'll be fine to run and gun!
AUGMENT: primary weapon elemental imbuement factored into raincloud damage with 15% status chance
WHOA! CC THAT IS PRETTY BALANCED! Numbers are fun
 

I dont like your rework on the first Ability. Seems kinda sketchy. Tempest Barrage is a good Ability i think, it just needs some tweaks.

[Nr.17]

On 9/23/2016 at 6:43 AM, RikerWatts said:

FIRST ABILITY: HARSH WEATHER
Ever been out on a boat and look across the sea to see wonderful weather but then all of a sudden WOOOSH IT'S A STORM! THUNDER AND LIGHTNING! BOOM CRACK! No? Ok well this ability is meant to be a placeable trap that looks like a raincloud, rains down harmful inclement to people below it, slowing them by 3/6/9/12/15% and doing 40/80/120/160/200 damage per second, along with disabling the weapons of people who walk through it. You can't fire weapons when they're chugged in water, silly! But when they get out of that storm, they'll be fine to run and gun!
AUGMENT: primary weapon elemental imbuement factored into raincloud damage with 15% status chance
WHOA! CC THAT IS PRETTY BALANCED! Numbers are fun

I dont like your rework on the first Ability. Seems kinda sketchy. Tempest Barrage is a good ability , it just needs some tweaks.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Nr.17

[RikerWatts]

On 9/26/2016 at 7:55 AM, Mak_Gohae said:

what synergy do you need for knocking people down in a small area, knocking people down in a straight line, knocking people down around you, knock people down in a larger circular area? It just knocking people down in different ways.

How? How is people being knocked down not useful?

whats a "nil target"?

And why is it unnecessary? It's a CC power mainly. Plus there are 4th that even with damage do not kill and you have to finis enemies.

Surprise
Skill synergy. Skills that work well into the frame together. Hydroid's entire set just enforces a caster playstyle but seemingly encourages a point-blank one.
Like what.
I didn't say it wasn't, but ember's augmented ultimate has a 100% chance to knock people down and it auto hits. Frost's ult freezes people in place. TITANIA HYPNOTIZES A MASS OF PEOPLE WITH ONE ABILITY.
A target that is literally in a state of being untargettable and unhittable. A "nil target"
I do not even understand what the hell you are saying here. Basically: I shouldn't have to try to hit a target that is flailing at mach 2 in a concentrated zone that only AOE frames and weapons can handle efficiently. Das wat we cal baed gaem desin

 

 

On 9/26/2016 at 4:01 PM, Nr.17 said:

I dont like your rework on the first Ability. Seems kinda sketchy. Tempest Barrage is a good ability , it just needs some tweaks.

Sure tempest barrage could be good with tweaks. Like range increases each missile's splash. That was a nice suggestion by someone to make a negative stat not neccesary.
But this ability enforces the "pirate captain" and "cc focus" they want

[Z.E.V]

You know I think a lot of people forget how great Hydroid used to be when he was first released. He was just nerfed to oblivion with Openly logged nerfs and shadow nerfs. Because people cried he was to OP and could do anything. When Hydroid first came out, He could Solo 60+ anything. The abilities now are nerfed so hard their just bad. They don't need changed they need rolled back and re-balanced. Here's original how they USED to work based off my memory.

TEMPEST BARRAGE - Used to hit a minimum of 700 Damage, Had a minimum of 8-12m(Can't remember but it was big enough to SATURATE) Blast Radius with 100% Guarantee to rag doll anything. Range mods did not adjust blast radius but it did adjust how far you could space them out. in a ODE one hydroid could cover the entire field.

Further more base Energy cost was cheaper by like 5 or 7 so it was worth taking more Duration on Hydroid over Efficiency. Further more it never used to just poop 4 shots per second. It fired A LOT MORE in one barrage. So Natural talent made that feel like a 100 Gun Galleon was somewhere on the ocean waves firing a full broadside. Now its just a schooner firing inaccurately. The knock-back blast went through obstacles. IT DID MAJOR DAMAGE while being god tier CC. HYDROID USE TO BE KING OF OUT RIGHT CC. All 4 of his abilities had god tier CC potential.

Today, They took away both damage + CC  and balanced it in such a way there is no middle ground. YOU CAN get the blast radius up there but its not a 100% GUARENTEE KNOCK DOWN. It's semi useful for SEE tho you'll never get damage on this. Don't bother. Tempest barrage was your best Crowd Control ability for Knockdowns and now its got a very low chance to do it and can no longer do it through obstacles.

TIDAL SURGE - USED to be your weakest damaging ability for good reason. Hydroid had very slow base running speed. This was like the land base version of Zephyr it would fling you across the map. Plus side if you hit a enemy. You were a terrifying tsunami that would knock enemies down and drag them with you. Though you didn't really do damage. Over time in Hydroids nerfs they tried to make this do ALOT of damage now it does NEITHER DAMAGE OR CC. It just kinda.. Gently caresses the enemies face like your making sweet sweet love to them.

UNDERTOW - A lot of people don't remember just how truly terrifyingly powerful this was. It kinda needed a bit of a nerf. The only good thing, This was again another god tier CC. You removed enemies out right from the field of battle. I remember in the Nef Anyo Event Prophet of Profit. You could puddle the bursa's if your teammates were downed or needed a breather. Though when Hydroid first came out.

This did WAY MORE DAMAGE THAN IT SHOULD HAVE. It was doing up in the 200's and the ticks went a lot faster than they do now. Once more the puddle size still could be effected by a range mod. So if you were like the Cpt. Puddles of old you went COMPLETE GLOBAL SATURATION with high range mods. You could consume and entire wave of infested with them ever touching a chryo pod.

The beauty of the puddle back then is you could move around in it. If memory serves me right. YOU COULD even use your melee weapon inside the puddle to attack what you had trapped inside. As long as you didn't walk out the puddle. You would stay in puddle form that had very little energy drain. Further more puddle was ment to be combo'd with tentacle's. Each Tentacle would rip a enemy out of your puddle and SLAM THEM BACK DOWN dealing bonus damage on top of tentacle damage.

 

TENTACLE SWARM - Like everyone's favorite Japanese anime; This ability became everyone's favorite fast. Though from day one it was the HARDEST HITTING but THE ABSOLUTE BUGGIEST THING YOU EVER SEEN. When DE NERFED this they nerfed it by FIXING IT. Which makes me both sad/glad. I get mixed feelings with this one.

Tentacle swarm needed fixing but by doing so it nerfed it. Though they later further nerfed it's scaling which didn't need to happen. So this in of itself made it do nothing. Then further got nerfed again making it useless in CC. Then band-aided to be a poor man's Nekros.

Initially when Hydroid came out the Tentacle was best used you guessed it like all Hydroids abilities HIGH RANGE MODS. These Tentacles had absurdly fat hitboxes. Not like now, Just grazing them enemies would get stuck on them like a fly on a glue strip. Each Tendril really wasn't so limited on how many enemies they could hold either. One Tendril would hold 10+ enemies at a time dealing super damage. Once more the Tendrils would fight for enemies. They would grab the same enemy and break the models stretching them out HILARIOUSLY. Srsly funniest S#&$ ever. I give DE props for that bug. Though it did need fixing. They would even fight for the ones they were already holding onto.

Yet that isn't what made it broken.

If you had decent balance between Duration, and Efficiency. You could spam never ending Tentacle swarm and sometimes bug out infinite swarms.

http://i.imgur.com/AjQRaFj.jpg

Like in that image. A decent balance could have out to 3 - 4 Swarms out at a time and with range mods. The Tendrils were so spread out again. COMPLETE GLOBAL SATURATION.

 

So all in all, Hydroid was REALLY GOD TIER. Right up there with Ash Blade storm spamming, Rhino map wide stomp, Ember burning the entire map without moving(Doing same dmg as ash too), Hydroid did no where near the damage as the a lot of well lets face it blatantly OP warframes that still yet to be fixed. Even though congratulations to DE for making ASH take skill now. Actually like that now. I can finally choose what I want to blade storm.

Just Hydroid didn't deserve to be nerfed this hard. He doesn't need a major rework. He just needs rolled back to when he was good and then looked at how to PROPERLY BALANCE IT WITHOUT GOING OVER BOARD FOR NO REASON.

I suggest.

Tempest Barrage - Give back the old blast Radius and Knock back

Tidal Surge - Make it like it once was. There was never anything wrong with it other than noobs killing themselves cause they couldn't control it.

Undertow - I suggest letting people move around again if not at least allow people to cast swarm while in puddle form. Otherwise boost the damage. I saw no real reason to immobilize people in puddle form. Moving around really didn't make it OP. Just again noobs need to learn not to leave the puddle.

Tentacle Swarm - Try to balance the old with the new. See if there is a middle ground.

Overall, Needs a rebalance cause way it stands. No amount of power mods can make any of these abilities hurt, Duration sucks even with duration mods, and over all there is just no proper balance between Power, Duration, Range, Efficiency with him anymore. Everything is scaled so badly. No matter which way you go it just comes out sub-par to a wave 5 war frame. You just better off ignoring warframe abilities all together and putting Health, Shields, Armor, Mobility and using a melee weapon. There is no way to to make the abilities good at all aside from being a wave 5 poor man's nekros.

[RistN]

Hydroid is actually very good.All of his abilities are useful.He can be quite OP.Only thing I would change on him is that tentical swarm animation.It is most annoying ability in this game.