The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Pendragon1951]

I also want to know what happen to the pie chart they were suppose to keep updating to show usage?

[Shockwave-]

3 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

89%....tell me. what's 26+52?

(hint: it's not 89)

so since your numbers are already off, and you HAD the chart, one has to wonder: do you even look at what's presented from the devs?

26+52 is 78, but not sure what that means. Volume of vac was reduced by 89%

Or are you math challenged?

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

1 minute ago, RikerWatts said:

You pick on him when he joined about a year ago, he too probably knows about the issues carrier had on the sentinel environment. Yet, just like all the people who have stayed through updates that have removed something: He understands.
It would seem you are the one crying about something, as I am rank 20 in 89 days, newer than you, was here long enough to hit 12 with draco, yet I can comprehend everything that is going on and their reasoning because it is all because DE doesn't like the way the game was being played. It was incorrect, unhealthy. The game is grindy, but they hate for it to BE grindy, and if you look, they are working toward fixing that one step at a time.

And whose fault is that? You're the one exploiting the game to rank up and once you've reach the MR you wanted are all of a sudden ok with it being changed. Hypocrite much? 

[DeFragMe]

its very very hard... since i would want a turn off function if that was the case. i dont like my loot getting flung around all the time.

and even more so we wouldnt have this when it would be the case :

 

^{_{i just love it.....}}

 

[-Amaterasu-]

It isn't at all hard they literally probably only need to copy/paste the code they have for sents to all the warframes (Might not actually be that simple but a lot of things have vacuum so I wouldn't exactly call it "hard") but the point was the argument over giving carier's ability to all of the sents since they were never used so I don't really see why they'd do that.

With the situation of Kubrows/Kavats getting their own vacuum I don't personally think they should firstly because I don't think they ever pick resources up anyway and secondly because there's a kubrow designed around going around and picking up loot for you so it would require a total rework for them to do that. At least it can be made sense of that sentinels could have a vacuum since they're not exactly organic.

Edited October 6, 2016 by -Amaterasu-

[(XBOX)GeckoGenesis]

I really don't get what all the fuss is about a simple vacuum sentinel.  I kinda agree, the little guy is just a little overrated.  Yay, a sentinel that picks stuff up for you.  I think Carrier's new power will be a little more useful, especially for those who use shotguns, bows, or grenade launchers. 

[CandyDragon]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Are you sure about that... which other sentinel will you take.... which is better than a carrier, especially the prime version.

This is compounded by the strange decision to make carrier's new passive ammo conversion.  Literally better than any of the other.

 

Wyrm/prime: sometimes stuns enemies, useless otherwise, basically carrier without the ammo conversion
Shayde: Barely works, LOS issues due to map geometry or something. Thus cannot rely on the stealth ability. 
Deathcube: why? Used to be neat, but sweeper prime and more durable carrier prime replaced it
Djinn: would be neat, but dies as soon as an enemy is aware you exist, any map with bombards will pop this guy almost instantly.
Helios: Is okay till you run out of codex that needs filled.
FloatyBalloon Dirga: Pops just like a balloon and has been nerfed to obscurity. 

[SineSole]

2 minutes ago, Pendragon1951 said:

I also want to know what happen to the pie chart they were suppose to keep updating to show usage?

Did they say that'd be shown on the dev stream?

Edited October 6, 2016 by Rogue_Striker
Dev has a v not a b

[Nep_Blanc]

9 hours ago, Nolc said:

It's 100% accurate. Before this nerf I would look at the minimap, see where the little white boxes are and just run there, collecting everything in my path. Now, I have to actually scan the ground and search for S#&$. It's a bother that does NOT make the game better. it makes the game slower and more tedious. I've tried it out in a few missions now and it's annoying as hell.

 

9 hours ago, notlamprey said:

I was frustrated enough after one mission that I'd rather just put the game down and wait until the dust settles before playing again.

It's such a radical hit to my fun levels, being constantly forced to run so much closer to all the loot than was previously necessary. I can afford to call it 'fun,' because I'm not exactly in a position where I absolutely need to pick up every piece of stuff.

New players aren't so fortunate.

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)haffmo said:

Get gud is a bs response. Your superiority complex is showing .

 

9 hours ago, Nolc said:

hazerddex, you realize they make you walk an extra 6 meters on every single loot drop. That adds up fast and to a lot. I get it, you are just @(*()$ great and you are not bothered by having to look at the minimap and the actual map to scan where the loot is. You don't have a problem with stopping to shoot and to use skills and to position yourself just so you can walk that bit closer to loot. You are not annoyed by the addition time it takes you to pick up loot now. That's fine, but the vast majority of players will be annoyed. You know why? because the VAST majority of players were using carrier with a maxed out vacuum and it straight up makes the slower and more tedious for everyone who was accustomed to the 12 meter range.

Personally, I will never understand how people are okay with other people getting quality of life changes revoked because it personality doesn't annoy them. It's like "well it doesn't bother me, so shut the F*** up it shouldn't bother you as well!" Don't you see this attitude will bite you in the &#! the moment something is nerfed that you personally enjoyed and everyone else just shrugs and leaves you alone? Jeez, you people

 

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

There's nothing to "git gud" at in this particular case. Skill of picking up loot? LMAO

 

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Why would anyone bother to do that? You're kidding? Trolling? You really have fun picking up items? The whole mechanic of picking up stuff in games is an anachronism. People don't like it. Nobody does. And it's no fun at all. It's just a stupid mechanic from 80's slow paced games that's outdated by 30 years now. Especially in case of warframe.

 

9 hours ago, hazerddex said:

its called using the parkor system and not walking its not that complex

 

8 hours ago, Nolc said:

Glitchy thing? I've played the game for 2 months now~ and I haven't seen the thing glitch out in any significant way, maybe you need to get gud in reading the thing? lol

Defense missions do leave you time in between waves to run around and pick up loot o_O Obviously I'm not literally walking, I'm rolling and sliding, but I still have to now be slower and look more careful to pick up all the loot. It's just not as fast or fluid as it was before. It feels really bad. Are you intentionally obtuse? Is this what it is? Do you just not understand that before I would fly around and pick up loot just by playing and occasionally doing a parkour time flip around on the map, and now i have to actually look for the loot because the range has been more than halved?

 

8 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

All DPS weapons eat a lot of ammo, Fire-rate secondaries eat a lot of ammo, spammable and togglable abilities without zenurik eat a lot of energy, We have mods like energy and health conversions, with each new prime we need tens of thousands of resources. You want people to pick all that stuff manually? You serious? You can't be serious. That's a lot of time out of life. That's a lot of time out of fun. People used carrier not because they're lazy. Carrier effectively CHANGES the pace of the game and increases the fun you have from using the parcour 2.0. Picking up items is not common sense. You can't just say "it's common sense" and dismiss the conversation. No, it's not. Not in a fast-paced game like warframe. 

TLDR: change vacuum to 12 meters or give Warframes a passive 12 meter vacuum, so other companions are not left out too, and for all GIT GUD comments I say you have to GIT GIUD because if you don't see what the majority of the community wants and asked for then they definitly did not ask for a Vacuum NERF.

I hope you all Git GUD peeps get in your skull that Loot GATHERING is no skill and a OUTDATED part of the game, Literally no skill involved in getting loot at all.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[Lijka]

5 hours ago, Azrael said:

*Edit: you said that the change is only less individually. But individually is all that matters, because you can only take one sentinal at a time. If my current sentinal does a bad job of vacuuming, it is no consolation to me that I could use a different sentinal and get an equally bad vacuum.

However, you are no longer forced to use the same sentinel if you want vacuum at all. You can now take Helios for his scan/weakness detection AND have it vacuum stuff, even if less efficiently than old carrier. You can take Diriga, have the cc and firepower it offers AND vacuum.

I, for one, am happy with the change. I would much rather there was no nerf to range, true, but I would take current situation over old one anytime. One thing I really want changed is kubrows/kavats getting the same mod.

[Imaru]

3 minutes ago, Pendragon1951 said:

I also want to know what happen to the pie chart they were suppose to keep updating to show usage?

They've been at work for maybe 3 hours, and the update dropped not even a full day ago. They don't have enough data to resolve any valid conclusion. 

[Pendragon1951]

Hmmm not to my knowledge I thought they just said they would keep updating a pie chart?

[Skaleek]

Because you vacuum yourself at night!

[Shockwave-]

9 hours ago, hazerddex said:

if your stopping to walk and pick up loot..... then all i can say is 

 

i can pick up items mid bullet jump, normal jump sprint ect iv never needed vaccum and never will nor have i ever need to stop and walk to pick up loot

 

and you'd get beat every time by someone with old vacuum they would get all the same loot you did and be waiting at the end for you.

[Nep_Blanc]

20 minutes ago, kuliise said:

Someone on reddit calculated it over here: https://as.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/55y9y1/this_is_the_difference_between_current_and_the/

Area is 5.76 times smaller.

Thats with 5 meters man I am actually referring to the vacuum within stats on the forums, this thread actually gave us 1 meter more XD

And my calculations are a bit more accurate.

 

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Edited October 6, 2016 by TheRoaringLion

[CandyDragon]

Just now, Shockwave- said:

and you'd get beat every time by someone with old vacuum they would get all the same loot you did and be waiting at the end for you.

so giving the old vacuum to everyone would have been a positive change, rather than balance it in favor of a minority (they established this) who did not. 

[Pendragon1951]

This is a quote from Rebecca regarding the pie chart " We will give you consistent snapshot updates on how this pie changes once we implement 'The Vacuum Within' for Sentinels. How much does our collective behaviour change in this slice of content? We are interested in results for many reasons, namely on how us approaching longstanding requests has the results you want: more choice. "

[Tsukinoki]

I think I figured out DEs reasoning for the "nerf":
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way.

[LSG501]

1 minute ago, Nariala said:

This is compounded by the strange decision to make carrier's new passive ammo conversion.  Literally better than any of the other.

 

Wyrm/prime: sometimes stuns enemies, useless otherwise, basically carrier without the ammo conversion
Shayde: Barely works, LOS issues due to map geometry or something. Thus cannot rely on the stealth ability. 
Deathcube: why? Used to be neat, but sweeper prime and more durable carrier prime replaced it
Djinn: would be neat, but dies as soon as an enemy is aware you exist, any map with bombards will pop this guy almost instantly.
Helios: Is okay till you run out of codex that needs filled.
FloatyBalloon Dirga: Pops just like a balloon and has been nerfed to obscurity. 

pretty much this although I don't mind diriga on lower levels, it's precepts do work fairly well but take it high level is just no go for 90% of the standard sentinels without forma investment. 

Oh and shade... yeah thats a great precept turning me invisible AFTER I've killed the enemy.... also huras kubrow works better and can be revived.

Even before the change and on levels where I wasn't looking to go after loot the usual default companion for me was carrier, before kavats I'd sometimes take a kubrow, huras or sahasa due to invisibility and dig respectively.  Occasionally take a smeeta kavat due to charm or I'm specifically after rare items like argon crystals. 

I can honestly say I'd happily take a kubrow/kavat (not saying they don't have their own issues) with me instead of a sentinel if it had vacuum as running around trying to get the loot whats dropped all over the place is a pita.

[RikerWatts]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

And whose fault is that? You're the one exploiting the game to rank up and once you've reach the MR you wanted are all of a sudden ok with it being changed. Hypocrite much? 

93 days old, my friends led me to draco, told me to buy stuff and level it up. They said draco was the best place.
Being a new player following the lead and tips of a more experienced player much like guides of the lotus, I did.
Do I regret it? No. I avoided having to use weapons I didn't like and kept weapons I did like.
This does not instill hypocrisy in any way, but an appeal as I reached rank 20 in under 90 days with my last 8 being after draco's removal in the span of about 40 days

you might want to look up the definition of hypocrisy and tone down on your personally-offended aggression you unjustly have toward myself and PrVon

[Jakorak]

53 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

snip

I can agree with you and everyone else saying that this is an attempt to slow down our play, make us think more, and engage with our world. There is one problem. Staring at the dirt to pick up the upteenth rubedo off the floor does not make an engaging experience. It is a numb monotony that detracts from whatever your core experience is you are currently searching for.

Your core experience might be the power trip central to this game of whimsical space genocide. Your core experience might be exploring the corridors to find all the clever hidden coves with tasty loot inside. Your core experience might be scouring the game for all the pieces of audio and text lore you can find to try and understand this insane solar system you find yourself in. Your core experience might be tinkering with frames and weapons to stretch the possibilities of what can synergize together.

Every single core experience you can strive for, playing 52 pickup and missing rare resources and mods because it was inside a corner or glitched into a wall, only tethers you down to monotony and adds frustration to the gameplay.

Having vacuum for 3D loose dropped loot is such a painfully obvious piece of decade old normal game design that it is a pitiful joke this wasn't implemented at the game's first development

[Pendragon1951]

3 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I think I figured out DEs reasoning for the "nerf":
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way.

Hmmm that's a interesting thought, thanks for the answer and explained this way seems more reasonable, I still would like the 12 meters but I get what your saying:)

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

9 minutes ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

First off, lay off the hostility. FYI, I'm not even half-way through the game's content at this point. I barely play for more than a few hours a week. But aside from that, you haven't actually rebutted my point. The old Carrier/Vacuum meant that players got 'addicted' to being able to run through a mission without ever bothering about pickups. That's not the point of the game. A player shouldn't be able to simply speed-run like that with zero penalties. Now, not only will other Sentinels see more usage, but players will actually have to look around for what they're missing.

And in all actuality, this change did come little over a year after I started WF. And I'm glad that now I can take out something better than Carrier.

 

The hostility was well placed given that you're the one accusing people of crying about vacuum, while ignoring the fact that you've been crying about TWW. 

I'm a casual player that has been playing this game for over 2 years and play the game the way it was meant to be played, for this reason I'm only MR 15 and only have a little under 1 million credits at my disposal...And you're expecting me to be ok with a nerf to fundamental farming mechanic because its necessary to correct the constant exploiting of some players? All DE has done in the past year is introduce new drops and constantly required more and more of those new drops to make new weapons and WF, and you expect me to be complaisant because those you exploited the system are ok with it? No thanks, and if they would leave the standard vacuum on Carrier they would notice that most people would feel the same way. 

[LSG501]

4 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

This does not instill hypocrisy in any way, but an appeal as I reached rank 20 in under 90 days with my last 8 being after draco's removal in the span of about 40 days

This explains everything... you basically have no need for resources so this nerf doesn't affect YOU in any way because you're at the highest level (by exploiting draco basically).  This nerf to vacuum does affect players who still need to actually do things like level up or build new weapons....

Edited October 6, 2016 by LSG501

[Azrael]

9 minutes ago, Lijka said:

However, you are no longer forced to use the same sentinel if you want vacuum at all. You can now take Helios for his scan/weakness detection AND have it vacuum stuff, even if less efficiently than old carrier.

 

15 minutes ago, Azrael said:

I do, in fact, like having a 6m vacuum on helios.

I agree with you. But can you give me a good reason for nerfing the range? Why did it happen? I was hardly necessary, unless you're going to tell me that 12m vacuum was game-breaking somehow.