The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[VonDodo]

1 hour ago, FrostboundFlame said:

They'd better not. I'm in the minority, sure, but vacuum as a passive is a terrible idea, let alone on frames.

Understand though, for a moment, that with said 89% of the playerbase using carrier, that this will allow said carrier spammers to go to other (and better) sentinels instead of sitting on a glorified household appliance because they're too lazy to pick up after themselves. Sure, it doesn't fix the problem, but it at least gives the option for diversity to begin with.

 

Carrier is not about being OP its about removing an unfun activity from the game. There is NO WAY to defend the nerf of it....if anything a passive FRAME ability should be given to equal carrier functionality but at that point you ll see 50% using smeeta and 50% using shade.

 

Any attacking sentinel will stay useless or worse (you DON'T want sentinels to attack stuff most times) and people will find this game simply "less fun" that in a moment with no endgame, delayed updates and lot of problems is something to avoid if they want to keep their playerbase.

 

 

[DEADSHOT456]

5 minutes ago, Racter said:

Your condescending attitude aside, it is commonly referred to as universal because we wanted it to be frame based. Aka, actually universal. Not just for sentinels, not even just for companions, though that would have been an acceptable compromise for most, and not nerfed to 40% of current effectiveness. Not this bad joke.

Do you have an official source that says it was referred to as universal because YOU wanted it to be frame based?

What you think as "Universal" does not matter here. What DE thinks as universal matters. You can think Universal Serial Bus as a "universal" port, but clearly, USB is only universal with the Serial ports. It can not fit in an HDMI or VGA port. Similarly, Vacuum was a thing of Sentinels, not cats, dogs or frame and thus the term here has a high possibility of referring to "Universal to Sentinels", just like "USB is universal to serial ports".

And "we" did not want it to be frame based, YOU did. Don't speak for me. I like the fact that it is sentinel based. It makes sentinels much more valuable.

12 minutes ago, Racter said:

Your condescending attitude aside

My condescending attitude?

Who was it that was teaching me which number is bigger,12 or 5, despite I already stating that we should wait for the actual implementation to see how it works? Oh, yes, it was you -

1 hour ago, Racter said:

Is the number 12 larger or smaller than 5? Smaller? That's a nerf. There is no arguing against 5<12, it's math. We can clearly see how it works in the .gif, even if we had no way to tell how big 5m was in game (hint, it's nothing).

To assume that someone does not know which number is bigger is condescending. Learn the meaning of the word and then use it. You lose the right to point finger when you were the first one to show arrogance towards a post(my first post) which shared opinions. My first post was a simple opinion. Learn the fact that opinions differ. Instead of respecting my opinion, you went ahead and tried teaching me basic maths. And you dare say that I have an condescending attitude? You will get a reply inthe same tone you use with me.

Work on your own attitude first. If you do not have the mentality to take disagreement properly, you should not post on public forums, since there will always be people that will have a different opinion.

[RistN]

This is maybe the third time I posted this...

I started a topic long time ago about making vacuum a mod for all sentinel.This 3 mods is just complicated,why not make it just 1?

[Singularity001]

89% of people stuck with Carrier because auto-loot and are accustomed to the 12 meter range. 89% of the players have to adjust their play style and maneuvers to the new 5 m range, so for 89% of people that is indeed a nerf, and I'm guessing for 11% of people some sort of inconvenience. I would've preferred a universal 12m vacuum with an on/off switch with that everybody should be happy. 89% of people get a huge Quality of Life boost 11% of people stick to their status quo and Devs get praised hopefully buy some time for their yet again delayed TWW. :/ Playerbase is evaporatin and this update ruffles so many feathers.

[Racter]

1 hour ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

Do you have an official source that says it was referred to as universal because YOU wanted it to be frame based?

What you think as "Universal" does not matter here. What DE thinks as universal matters. You can think Universal Serial Bus as a "universal" port, but clearly, USB is only universal with the Serial ports. It can not fit in an HDMI or VGA port. Similarly, Vacuum was a thing of Sentinels, not cats, dogs or frame and thus the term here has a high possibility of referring to "Universal to Sentinels", just like "USB is universal to serial ports".

And "we" did not want it to be frame based, YOU did. Don't speak for me. I like the fact that it is sentinel based. It makes sentinels much more valuable.

My condescending attitude?

Who was it that was teaching me which number is bigger,12 or 5, despite I already stating that we should wait for the actual implementation to see how it works? Oh, yes, it was you -

To assume that someone does not know which number is bigger is condescending. Learn the meaning of the word and then use it. You lose the right to point finger when you were the first one to show arrogance towards a post(my first post) which shared opinions. My first post was a simple opinion. Learn the fact that opinions differ. Instead of respecting my opinion, you went ahead and tried teaching me basic maths. And you dare say that I have an condescending attitude? You will get a reply inthe same tone you use with me.

Work on your own attitude first. If you do not have the mentality to take disagreement properly, you should not post on public forums, since there will always be people that will have a different opinion.

I just glanced at some of your previous posts, curious that you seem to be in favor of this change and are only nit picking this one detail? Clearly, universal Vacuum implies making Vacuum a feature built into frames, not tied to a specific companion or class of companions. Players want to use their kubrows, and kavats, as well as their other sentinels, without having to walk all over the map and without missing out on loot/ammo/energy/health. Restricting it to sentinel only still leaves half the companions in the freezer gathering dust. Since you are struggling with this, I recommend looking at the thousands of posts and threads here or on the subreddit, or reading through the related feedback mega thread. The vast majority in favor of this change wanted this quality of life feature to be separated entirely from companion choice. I would say everyone, but I'm sure one could dig up one or two posts out of thousands disagreeing with this. Even if you are dead set on only using sentinels, removing this restriction has no effect on you.

I only pointed out the basic math because you seemed either unaware or uncaring about that enormous difference. Because that's what it is, enormous. A 58% reduction in functionality can be described no other way, even if you throw out the issue with kubrows/kavats entirely.

 

11 minutes ago, Singularity001 said:

89% of people stuck with Carrier because auto-loot and are accustomed to the 12 meter range. 89% of the players have to adjust their play style and maneuvers to the new 5 m range, so for 89% of people that is indeed a nerf, and I'm guessing for 11% of people some sort of inconvenience. I would've preferred a universal 12m vacuum with an on/off switch with that everybody should be happy. 89% of people get a huge Quality of Life boost 11% of people stick to their status quo and Devs get praised hopefully buy some time for their yet again delayed TWW. :/ Playerbase is evaporating and this update ruffles so many feathers.

Exactly!

Edited October 5, 2016 by Racter

[SoulOfTheHunter]

Spoiler

Starting off: Any Vacuum change should be added to warframes, much like how Archwings collect loot. Vacuum should not be tied to sentinals or companions only as in high level missions, when you need vacuum most, chances are your little freind is dead. Adding Vacuum only to sentinals solves nothing as people will continue to use what is likely their most forma'd sentinal; Carrier.

 

This concept stems from the excelent points made by /u/nerael and the propsed changes to Vacuum

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/55y0y4/vacuum_its_necessity_in_acquiring_loot_is_a/

In summary:

A key point, there is a difference between Pickups and Loot

Pickups = imediate items eg bullets, health, energy etc Short term items that you need to progress in the current mission.

Loot = valuables eg mods, resources, credits etc Long term items that you need to progress in the Warframe Universe.

 

Pickups

Pickups should remain as they are ie vacuumable, and that would work well with the proposed 5m range. This vacuum should be an innate ability of all Warframes (that can be toggled in optiosn for those who don't want it, credit @(PS4)IrSchm33 & others). The size of the vacuum radius is subject to discusion, but I think a slightly reduced radius would be beneficial. A 12m radius allows little control on how much of the Pickups you collect; collecting 5 energy orbs when you are 12 energy short of full is a waste. A smaller vacuum radius would allow you to scoop 1 orb. That is just a thought, and not something I have tested. The requirement to collect (in some way) items that help you through the mission must remain otherwise there becomes issues of ammo/health/energy and how they are aquired & managed.

Suggestion; possibly provide a visual ring to aid in guaging the vacuums effective radius.

Loot

Loot would work better if; kill enemy, loot doesn't drop, it goes straight into your rewards/inventory. That way there is no missing out on drops, no requirement for Loot vacuum at all. Everything each member of the squad earns is added to the collective rewards/inventory. This raises the issue of what do you display on screen? It would be a lot of spam if every drop that each member got was displayed, but there are ways around that too.

For example with mods/blueprints;

The game knows what the drop rates for everything is, if a mod is collected and it has a 80% drop chance, there is no need to popup anything. Just add it to the rewards stack and move on. However, if you collect a mod that has a 0.000001% drop chance it should popup '<insert rare mod name here>' and set off fireworks and queue Ordis's voiced awe and amazement

Suggestion: maybe put a slider in the options menu that lets you set the rarity of what should be shown in a popup? maybe only show 'New' items?

For resources & Credits;

Each mission you enter has theoretically 4 available resource drops (and credits), simply put a running total of those resources under the squad members on the right

• Plastids: 657
• Rubedo: 894
• Ferrite: 6000990
• Argon Crystals: 3
• Credits: 13289

Suggestion: This also allows for some additional usability that can be added in the future, for example; you could set a target value for plastids, and when you reach that value a message is displayed or a simple tick put next to the running total.

Loot is generally the reason people play certain mission and the risk of missing out on valuable resources or drops simply because; you didn't see it, was out of range, squadmates didn't alert you to it in time etc Items that might take 100's of hours to see even once can be so easily missed.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by SoulOfTheHunter

[Weidro]

ill just leave this here

[SoulOfTheHunter]

13 minutes ago, Weidro said:

ill just leave this here

Thanks I guess? Those proposed changes to Vacuum are precisly why I am putting forth this concept.

Edited October 5, 2016 by SoulOfTheHunter

[Basqui]

The devs wouldn't want to try out your suggestion any time soon IMO because they're way too busy with the incoming update.
[DE]Steve proposed an easier fix to the vacuum problem by making it available to all sentinels and making it a passive ability (no more mods fo that, space mom).

The thing about Steve's fix is that kavats and kubrows won't be getting it too, and the range for the vacuum is decreased when compared to carrier's current range.
On the other hand, kavat and kubrow lovers here at the community don't really mind because they already got used to getting very, very close to the loot to pick them up.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Basqui
add some things.

[SoulOfTheHunter]

9 minutes ago, Basqui said:

The thing about Steve's fix is that kavats and kubrows wont be getting it too.
On the other hand, kavat and kubrow lovers here at the community don't really mind because they already got used to getting very, very close to the loot to pick them up.

Thats my main issue; companions don't get it. tbh, I use a kubrow a lot now. I'm MR22 with a crap tonne of resources so Vacuum for resources isn't important to me. However, there are those super rare mods that I don't want to miss out on. Quite often I've seen a Bursa die in front of me and drop a mod, but the Mission Results has appeared before I could go and stand on top of it. Vaccuum would have reached, but with a kubrow/kavat equiped its tormentingly out of reach.

Edited October 5, 2016 by SoulOfTheHunter

[nerael]

Chiming in here!

It's absurd to try and prevent players from picking up loot items -- those drops which only affect things after the mission (crafting, blueprints, endo, etc)!

Make it different for tactical resources such as health/energy orbs if that achieves your design goal, but don't tantalize players with loot that 'dropped' but you could never pick it up.

[SoulOfTheHunter]

6 minutes ago, nerael said:

Chiming in here!

It's absurd to try and prevent players from picking up loot items -- those drops which only affect things after the mission (crafting, blueprints, endo, etc)!

Make it different for tactical resources such as health/energy orbs if that achieves your design goal, but don't tantalize players with loot that 'dropped' but you could never pick it up.

Ah, perhaps I wasn't clear.

Current system

1. we kill enemy
2. they drop loot
3. we pickup loot

Proposed system

1. we kill enemy
2. any loot they would have dropped is added directly to the squads inventory
3. no need to pick up any loot, as you already have it

This only applies to Loot, Pickups are left on the ground for manual/vacuum collection

Edited October 5, 2016 by SoulOfTheHunter

[nerael]

2 minutes ago, SoulOfTheHunter said:

Ah, perhaps I wasn't clear.

Current system

1. we kill enemy
2. they drop loot
3. we pickup loot

Proposed system

1. we kill enemy
2. any loot they would have dropped is added directly to the squads inventory
3. no need to pick up any loot, as you already have it

You're in the clear man, I wasn't disagreeing with ya -- I'll say that in my post, part of the 'solution' is taking into consideration that the way DE seems to be acting about this, they consider Vacuum to be 'overpowered' -- the only way this makes any logical sense is when we're talking about tactical resources like HP/Energy orbs and Ammo. There are zero balance concerns when talking about whether or not you get 'loot' items in a mission. So in your 'Proposed System' I'm saying

1. we kill enemy

2. we get all the loot items, without silly gameplay barriers like stepping right on top of every single item (via some easy means -- either a long range vacuum, or automatically adding to mission inventory, or some other option)

...
4. any 'drops' which have immediate mission-impacting effects can arguably drop as normal, with whatever pickup radius they deemed to be 'balanced' against that effect.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 hour ago, Racter said:

I just glanced at some of your previous posts, curious that you seem to be in favor of this change and are only nit picking this one detail? Clearly, universal Vacuum implies making Vacuum a feature built into frames, not tied to a specific companion or class of companions. Players want to use their kubrows, and kavats, as well as their other sentinels, without having to walk all over the map and without missing out on loot/ammo/energy/health. Restricting it to sentinel only still leaves half the companions in the freezer gathering dust. Since you are struggling with this, I recommend looking at the thousands of posts and threads here or on the subreddit, or reading through the related feedback mega thread. The vast majority in favor of this change wanted this quality of life feature to be separated entirely from companion choice. I would say everyone, but I'm sure one could dig up one or two posts out of thousands disagreeing with this. Even if you are dead set on only using sentinels, removing this restriction has no effect on you.

Yes, I am in favor of "Vacuum on Warframes with a toggle" but I disagree with the part where you said that the idea DE implemented is a huge nerf. No, IMO, it is not a nerf. It might not be the best buff, but it is still a buff. And I am one of those 89%(In case you do not believe, just go ingame and check the profile of NN13, thats my gaming account).

The ability to move from Carrier to Helios without sacrificing Vacuum is a buff for me.

1 hour ago, Racter said:

Clearly, universal Vacuum implies making Vacuum a feature built into frames, not tied to a specific companion or class of companions.

Not really. It was just a suggestion. "Universal" doesn't NECESSARILY mean "Warframes with innate Vacuum". DE never really clarified what they meant by universal. It can very well mean they were talking about all the sentinels especially, because Vacuum is a sentinel feature to begin with. Also, just because the playerbase asked for Vaccum on frames doesn't mean DE have to do it. Maybe they envisioned Vacuum as a sentinel only ability.

As for specific companion argument, I guess you did not understand the USB vs HDMI example. Can't help if you do not understand the example which clearly indicates that the use of the word "universal" often does not represent the literal meaning of the "everything".

1 hour ago, Racter said:

I only pointed out the basic math because you seemed either unaware or uncaring about that enormous difference.

I am very much aware of the fact that 5m seems low. What you are not aware of is that more often than not, 5m is enough to suck in loot. The 12m range was actually superfluous. It was not really needed because more often than not, we fight CQC.

Also, pointing out that fact doesn't mean you have to be arrogant while doing so. You could have pointed it out politely instead of using an arrogant tone and asking "Is 5m greater than 12m?". So, my point still stands. You should not be the one to point finger at the tone I am using in my posts(excluding the first one) since I am doing it due to your first reply.

Edited October 5, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[DoomFruit]

5 minutes ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

I am very much aware of the fact that 5m seems low. What you are not aware of is that more often than not, 5m is enough to suck in loot. The 12m range was actually superfluous. It was not really needed because more often than not, we fight CQC.

Not necessarily. Against higher level enemies, you don't fight in close quarters, you bullet jump around like a maniac trying to stay moving (to reduce their accuracy, one shot will kill you) and at long distance (because something like 30% reduced accuracy is meaningless if you're 5 metres away). 5 metres is useless for that - hell, some of my melee weapons (atterax, tonbo, orthos prime) kill from further away.

Count me against the vacuum nerf. There is no justification for reducing its range.

[SoulOfTheHunter]

35 minutes ago, nerael said:

snip

Oh I see, it was me who misunderstood you ;)

[DEADSHOT456]

10 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:

Not necessarily. Against higher level enemies, you don't fight in close quarters, you bullet jump around like a maniac trying to stay moving (to reduce their accuracy, one shot will kill you) and at long distance (because something like 30% reduced accuracy is meaningless if you're 5 metres away). 5 metres is useless for that - hell, some of my melee weapons (atterax, tonbo, orthos prime) kill from further away.

Count me against the vacuum nerf. There is no justification for reducing its range.

I think you got the wrong idea from my post. I wasn't really talking about fighting CQC. Even if you bullet jump away from an enemy, you would still most likely be at 5m at at least some point of time during you combat.

I think you guys are saying 5m is useless from a ability pov. For example, Excalibur's slide blind is useless. But for Vacuum, I am not sure if 5m would suck. That is exactly why I said that we should wait and test it out in the very first post here.

As a matter of fact, the gif Steve posted seemed pretty normal to me. The Rubedo that got sucked by Dethcube in the gif is pretty much the distance I am away from the loot most of the times. I don't really remember myself being farther than that.

Edit - Even the mod in the gif seems normal to me. In that exact scenario, I am pretty sure no one can be farther than 5m from the mod since the corridor is pretty thin.

Edited October 5, 2016 by DEADSHOT456

[DoomFruit]

1 minute ago, DEADSHOT456 said:

I think you got the wrong idea from my post. I wasn't really talking about fighting CQC. Even if you bullet jump away from an enemy, you would still most likely be at 5m at at least some point of time during you combat.

I think you guys are saying 5m is useless from a ability pov. For example, Excalibur's slide blind is useless. But for Vacuum, I am not sure if 5m would suck. That is exactly why I said that we should wait and test it out in the very first post here.

As a matter of fact, the gif Steve posted seemed pretty normal to me. The Rubedo that got sucked by Dethcube in the gif is pretty much the distance I am away from the loot most of the times. I don't really remember myself being farther than that.

Not useless (it's better than having to touch the loot), but distinctly worse than what carrier does now - only 42% as good, to be exact. I'd rather keep the sentinels in their current unbalanced state (one of them does one job, and does it extremely well to the detriment of all the others) than have some crappy mediocre ability for all of them. And while you might be that close to loot, that's just you. I'm often much further away. I do not like having to keep stopping and changing direction to pick things up.

[DEADSHOT456]

1 minute ago, DoomFruit said:

but distinctly worse than what carrier does now - only 42% as good, to be exact.

That's the trade off for having it on every sentinel, especially as a passive. Everything in life has a trade off. Did you guys really think DE would just make Carrier's Vacuum sentinel-wide without any drawback?

I mean come on, Carrier can only suck and shoot now, but after the change, Carrier would give you ammo, suck and shoot. Helios will scan, suck and shoot. Shade will stealth, suck and shoot. It is common sense that there would be a trade off in this scenario.

[RistN]

Sentinels in fact have good mods that support your warframe and by that I mean there is no mod slots to sacrifice.

Also if it's correct almost all of players use carrier only because its vacuum ability.So...

Why make this hot forum topic with disappointed players?Why can't we just get a little break here and make vacuum only 1mod for  all sentinels that works the way it worked on carrier without any nerf and finally let us enjoy using other Sentinels?

Is this so hard to do ?Don't we all play this to enjoy ourselves?

[Top_Kekkonen]

6 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

And then they decided to make the vaccum mod for the warframe  ( JOKE!!! ).
LOLZ

AKA removing a mod slot

Edited October 5, 2016 by Top_Kekkonen

[BladeZerker]

7 hours ago, wolfsongcry said:

Nerf? This could have been worst. Try to imagine what could means to add 3 mods on a sentinel, decreasing its survivability only to pick up stuff. The decreased range is a good compromise in my opinion, if we can add it to any sentinel.

It is a bit bad. Why should the range be reduced at all? Why the need for such a compromise? The message being sent is literally "Oh you wanted a universal vacuum?. Here you go but just so you know we will reduce the range by half for no reason other than us complying with your request for a universal sentinel utility. You know, because why should should ALL sentinels have such a "powerful" ability" when we specifically made it for ONE and hurr durr he will have to be called something else now won't he?"

It's not a "good compromise"... at all. When you consider that the function of vacuum is not 100% responsive either, doesn't pick up every item and the range isn't always 12m. 

A good compromise would be for them to buff the range on the Coolant Leak from 3m/5% slow to 6m/15% slow and the Animal Instinct from +30Loot/18Enemy  to +40Loot/+25Enemy) if they are prepared to gimp Vacuum.

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by BladeZerker
Removed an extra "you"

[LoKor]

So out of all the post I didn't see one that shows the difference besides lame numbers.  People assume yea, 5m vs 10m is no biggie since its only about half right? Yea, that is not how circles work. Then I found this gem on top of /r/warframe.  Now here is the bad news.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/55y9y1/this_is_the_difference_between_current_and_the/

It's what we always wanted, right guyz?....Math done on wolfram

TLDR:

5m  = 78.5 area vs 12m= 452.3 area.  Total area is 5.7 times smaller.  A nerf of 83% in area in 2D. 

EDIT:  Fun fact by rcfox:   Vacuum works in 3 dimensions, so it's actually 13.82 times less volume.  13.82 times less volume in 3D (top and bottom).

EDIT2: Ingame Pic in relations to the crate.

. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by LoKor
ingame pic

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Considering I always use Helios, that still looks like a HUUUUGE buff to me.

EDIT: anyway, nice post mate.

Edited October 5, 2016 by siralextraffo

[trunks013]

2 minutes ago, siralextraffo said:

Considering I always use Helios, that still looks like a HUUUUGE buff to me.

Ha ha yeah ^.^

But waht if the carrier keeps is 12 m range ?

Did they said he will lose it in the last post ?

Idea from chaotea from another post ^.^ 

Edited October 5, 2016 by trunks013